Skip navigation

GM tells 1,100 U.S. dealers it's time to pack it in

The Associated Press

Cuts come a day after Chrysler drops hundreds of shops; GM unions in last-minute talks on cost savings ...Read the full article

This conversation is closed

  1. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>GM dealers await word on cuts

    And the G&M puts up a picture of a Chrysler logo.

    ?
  2. glop male from US, United States writes: And I was scratching my head figuring what 'oops and mail' was trying to fool readers this time. Then I remembered that the two car-makers are probably in the same graveyard.
  3. Smokezz from Southern Ontario from Canada writes: G&M puts up 10 articles a day.. they can't keep track.

    The bashers love it. They can cut/paste their comments over and over again
  4. macdaddy 1959 from How bad is it....no, really..., Canada writes: Just another green shoot that drives the bear/bull debate. Don't worry about donning your helmet yet, the bottom may not come until next year...maybe...
  5. Jason S from Windsor, Canada writes: Manufacturing is the backbone of any economy and once it is gone, the middle class will be wiped out. Indeed, as EconoChristian.com shows, governments use crises to push their agendas. Why do you think your government that you pay taxes to would ship your jobs to China where they keep their currency illegally low and have horrible human rights records? Eventually the Canadian economy will collapse.

    The 'comparative advantage' philosophy of economics generally ignores many principles. It in essence encourages economies to put all their eggs in one basket because under ideal circumstances it is more efficient. However, Murphy's Law usually lurks around the corner. Full-out comparative advantage is at odds with Murphy's Law and portfolio-diversification, turning economies into one-trick ponies.
  6. Serenity Now from Canada writes: Guys, Chrysler logo being used on a GM story...come'on Globe! ;)
  7. S.C. Davis from Canada writes: We have never purchased anything but 'big three' automobiles and neither has any member of our extended family. One did once and found the heating system not even close to reliable in the winter months. We have also decided we will not purchase anything not manufactured in Canada. Parts right up to finished product. The only problem will actually be toys. Don't be part of the problem, buy Canadian.
  8. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    What this story omitted and is being reported in the Detroit free Press is the following in addition to this bad news over and above the 1100 that will be announced:

    'It's part of the troubled automaker's efforts to restructure its network of dealerships to match demand for its new cars and trucks. GM hopes to reduce its U.S. dealer count by 42% to 3,605 by the end of next year.'

    While I am not sure if logic would dictate that here in Canada 42% of Canadian dealers will not also be renewed, this should be of great concern given Canadians' penchant and taste for smaller and more foreign brand autos.

    It was reported last month that there exists about 700 GM dealerships in Canada. There are a lot of businesses and jobs in play.

    Good luck to the folks, through almost no fault of their own, arrive at this unfortunate juncture...
    .
  9. Hunkered down in the land of never ending promises from Canada writes: I read a report a few weeks ago speculating that a minimum of 350 GM dealerships in Canada would close. The question is which ones. Expect to see much less concentration in larger centres across the country. It won't always be the small town dealership where the doors will close.
  10. s c from Hamilton, Canada writes: I agree buy Canadian made!
    I love my new Toyota Corolla. Skillfully crafted in Cambridge Ontario by well paid Non-Union Canadians.
  11. K D from Canada writes:
    I don't see a lot of dealers in my area closing. I get serviced at Oakvile Chevrolet and the place is always busy in the morning with oil changes and what have you when I drop off and there are always a few customers around.

    There don't seem to be more GM dealers around vs. Ford or anyone else but who knows...

    I feel sorry for the guys that loose their franchise. No faults of their own and they are mostly family businesses so it's hard.
  12. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Smokezz from Southern Ontario from Canada writes: 'They can cut/paste their comments over and over again '

    You referred to Jason S from Windsor, Canada
  13. Mike Dupuis from Blind River, Canada writes: I must agree with the 'Buy Canadian' approach. I Will not be buying any new GM trucks now that they are out of Canada. Have you driven a Ford lately?

    My other vehicle is an Impala which is manufactured in Canada. I hope GM truck sales in Canada fall to practically zero so that GM gets the picture.

    I am almost through with supporting GM. May be time to switch to Honda or Toyota.

    I do feel sorry for the car dealers as GM is taking them down. It may be an opportunity for them to try to switch over to a Honda or Toyota dealership. After All people will still need vehicles and services to go along with them.

    The best of luck to the dealerships in the future. This is where the skilled workers are. Not the production workers, or the so-called skilled workers. I would like to see an assembly worker troubleshoot and repair the complicated vehicles of today. The shop floor mechanics are the back bone and skilled workers of the automotive industry.
  14. SL S from Canada writes: If this is done properly the impact could be low. I have travelled and lived in every Province of Canada and what I have noticed in a few of the places that I've lived is an over abundance of one dealer or another. Good example is where I currently live we have two GM dealers. For the size of the population base here this is rediculous. I can only imagine that this repeats itself in other areas as well. Cutting the right dealers in the right areas may not have the bad impact that this story makes out possible. Of course we all know that news stories grossly over exagerate things in order to make an otherwise boring story seem catastrophic, and this case is no different. Personally, I don't think the big 3 would even have these issues if they had bothered to listen to what the people really want rather than attempting to push or create the next trend. Also if the Unions had been dangerously greedy, as they have been, much of this would have been prevented. I wanted to get a pickup truck. I wanted a bench seat, steering wheel, gear shift, speedometer, engine and gas and brake pedals...just a plain basic working truck. Do you think I could find that? Nope but I could get a house on wheels for $70,000. What happened to building what the people want or need? I don't want a fancy truck to take into the mud and haul stuff with, I want a plain old working mans truck, no fancy gadgets and extras. This is where the Big 3 REALLY messed up. It was all pretty simple and they totally screwed the pooch.
  15. Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: Whitness as America becomes a third world economy. They are finally buckling under Freetrade, what people knew was going to happen for the past 22 years is finally happening. What we are seeing is NOT a more efficient alocation of resources but the destruction of what we were, now we will be like Mexico.

    I would laugh at the Free traders when they are selling fake watches at the side of the road if I didn't think I may be there too.
  16. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Chrysler is operating under bankruptcy protection, so it is likely to have an easier time tearing up its franchise agreements with its dealers than GM'

    This crazy bailout is hurting Ford.

    Bankrupted GM & Chrysler, saed by government fund, with smaller cost is fight for the same group of D3 buyers with Ford with higher cost structure.

    When GM & Chrysler get out of bankruptcy protection, we shall see Ford will file a bankruptcy.
  17. Common Sense from Canada writes: .
    So what happens to the dealerships?
    Become Toyota dealers?
    Service stations?
    Car rentals?
    ...?
  18. Mike Dupuis from Blind River, Canada writes: I could not agree more with SL S from Canada. I have been looking for a plain truck to replace my 20 year old Ford. Well good luck. I have search for 3 weeks for a plain stripped down 4x4 work truck with a rubber floor mat. Guess what. Can't find one on any lot within a 400 km radius of me. I mean Dodge, GM or Ford. After a 3 week search, I found a dealer that was willing to at least have one delivered 'SPECIAL ORDER' with a 5 - 6 week delivery time. What happened to when a truck was a truck, not a car. These guys have totally missed the mark.
  19. Loudan Bellicose from Canada writes: One wonders about the business acumen of the people that decide to close the dealerships.
    I think that this explains why GM and Chrysler are in trouble in the first place.
    It is obvious the the top excecutives don't understand business.
    How is closing dealerships going to help?
    You can't fix stupid.
  20. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: 'Whitness as America becomes a third world economy. They are finally buckling under Freetrade,'

    Let's stopped the Free Trade

    BTW, tell me where to buy a Canadian made TV

    Also, tell Research In Motion how to sell their canadian made blackberry in foreign countries when FreeTrade not allowed.
  21. Core Vette from north, Canada writes: Being a Auto dealer is a great thing. You get to support all the sports teams, pay for the hospital stuff the government won't support, and help out the needy. When this crisis hit it took its toll on every industry in this country but for some reason the Globe has to paste negative auto company headlines noon and night. What a shame to have such a desire to see people fail and hurt and report it as quickly as possible. Why not find something else to talk about and we the big bad car dealers will be just fine.
  22. R E from Toronto, Canada writes: Read an interesting stat the other day. GM averages about 300 sales per dealer in North America. Toyota was over 1,200 and Honda over 1,300 from what I recall.
  23. Deskof Reason from Canada writes: Jason S, you must be an autoworker. The bit about losing the middle class sounds just like the brainwashing the union provides in their mandatory 'school classes' about autoworkers being forced out of the middle class. They are telling you that the company and the government are both ganging up on you. In other words, it is everyone else's fault.

    DoR
  24. That Guy from Canada writes:
    Loudan Bellicose from Canada writes: One wonders about the business acumen of the people that decide to close the dealerships.

    Because the D3 have more dealerships per capita than the Japanese brands.

    My city has two Ford dealerships and two GM stores.
    If I don't like them I can go 20kms to the next town that has 2 Fords and 2 GMs.

    Honda and Toyota seem to do OK with one each.
  25. Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Smokezz: You mean our friend Mark Baigrie? The one that keeps saying how 'asians dump their cars in Canada'?

    Where is Mark anyway? Can't keep track of the articles or did he read Honda's fact sheet and realize that 88% of vehicles sold in Canada were manufactured in NA?
  26. Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: Edwin Lee

    Man you are funny, no matter what I say it really doesn't sink in. You bring up an industry that we don't have or never had. We gave away that part of our manufacturing (if we ever even manufactured TV's) a long time ago.

    What I am saying is that we should bring back the work we did have not so long ago like Textiles, and help what we have left but are losing now like Cars and steel. Manufacturing is mission critical for a successful country and s strong middle class...its called wealth creation. We shouldn't be relying on other countries for these things, so we need tarrifs on our imports that make up for the difference in in the cost of a better environmental protection, better work environment and REASONABLE wages, then we can compete. If we don't do this we can't compete against the slaves, we are NOT SLAVES and we should be made to be one by our government and ideologers like yourself.

    (cont)

  27. SL S from Canada writes: Mike, when I finally did find a dealer who was willing to strip a truck down for me he refused to budge on the price. I gave up on that search and am still driving my old 78 GMC. I simply put a new engine in it. Was the dealer willing to adjust the price for you or what happened in your situation? Makes it hard for me too feel bad for them at this point.
  28. CallofDuty . from Canada writes: Building them in Mexico will kill the usual customers that prefer Trucks made in USA. Funny how on American Chopper that they started using Toyota Tundra trucks.
  29. That Guy from Canada writes:
    Mike Dupuis from Blind River, Canada writes: I am almost through with supporting GM. May be time to switch to Honda or Toyota.

    I would prefer to support local businesses, at least as local as I can find.
    But the fact that my 2006 Pontiac with less than 70,000KMs has required two new front wheel bearings, my enthusiasm for considering another GM product (assuming they are still around) is getting lower each passing day.

    My 1986 Honda Accord was waaay more reliable than this Pontiac.
    So I tried, I really did. But while I might consider another Ford the odds are my next vehicle will be an import brand. Sorry CAW/UAW/D3 dealers, you may be working for the wrong team.
  30. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    What I have always found interesting/troubling is how dealerships have never tried to somehow re-invent themselves over the years.

    I'm not sure what restrictions there are on what a dealership can and can't do, but they have never changed and tried to be ahead of the curve.

    They have a showroom-a parts dept.-a service dept. and are exclusive to their models-that's it-been that way forever!

    Look how other businesses evolved into something they were not.
    In this neck of the woods, it is not uncommon to have an Irving gas station with a convenience store and a Subway franchise. Who would have thought 30 years ago that a simple gas station would morph into that combination? Not a McDonalds patron, but they were only a burger joint 30 years ago.

    The list is endless about how companies have looked beyond a myopic view of a single product or service provider.

    Not only have the D3 failed in product models and innovation, but an archaic distribution system with zero vision of what it could have become to generate supplementary revenues in a down period with strategic alliances or other complimentary products/services.
    .
  31. Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: (Correction)

    ideologes like yourself.

    There is some sort of elitism that has been spreading since the Regan years, a class warfare where are certain groupe of people who hate another groupe because they somehow don't believe anyone but themselves should be making money because they didn't go to school for 10 years and saddle themselves with huge school debt.

    Well suck it up because more people have to be making a real check to suppor this economy...period.
  32. That Guy from Canada writes:
    Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Where is Mark anyway?

    Good question. If he drives the same late model GM vehicle that I do (that he says are excellent), he's probably trying to get it fixed for the long weekend. Like I am. Thanks General.
  33. Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Silver Standard, you mentioned Textile in your example. Will the same shirt made in Canada cost more or less than the shirt made in China? Now, what about other essential and basic items, would it cost more or less if they are all made in Canada?

    You will require some extraordinary convincing power if you suggest that prices will go lower if made in Canada. Thus, how is it beneficial to low income earners (people working at/close to minimum wage) to acquire such items at a higher price?
  34. Bjorn To Be Wild from Canada writes:
    ROFL;

    Jason S wins 'Funniest Post of the Day'

    .
  35. ARSE S from Canada writes: Close all the plants and dealers down and open up more welfare offices DUH
  36. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes: .
    We have four GM dealers in our area, all owned by the same group. Competition is illusory. The world will not end if half of them close.
  37. Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: Just A Bystander

    A shirt made in Canada will not cost a whole lot more, not at all. If it did then oh well, I don't buy shirts everyday, I can save the money..not like I would have to save a lot. So at least WE would be working and not on some sort of assistance.

    People forget the trade deficit is not a good thing to have and costs us in the long run, and the more welfare we have to dole out because people are not finding good work or making enough money costs us a whole lot more than the shirts we are spending a few cents more on...there is no logical argument against that either. Just ideology that a certain group of elitist wanna bee's have to get over.
  38. Disgusted Canadian from Canada writes: Don't ever say that I didn't tell you so. Every union contract that always goes for wage increases and benifits, was just another nail in all the auto giants coffin. If this means getting rid of unions and their wild dreams, or at least putting them in their place, most NorthAmericans are all for it. Watching all those employees 'waddling' out of their their truck plant yesterday wasn't pretty to watch. Had the company been getting 100% or close to it in productivity rather than13% they were getting, maybe this mass of obesity would waddle away from this place being a healthier looking being.
  39. Buck Russell from DON'T BAIL OUT THEIR PENSIONS, Canada writes: The market is a harsh mistress but she is never denied. This has been coming for decades, since the 70s maybe. All I can say is, while I feel for the pensioners, if it's gone it's gone, and government(s) better not use my tax money to bail out other peoples' penion funds.
  40. IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: The reality fact here is the same amount of consumers will be buying the same amount of car products on the market, except they won't be GM or Crapsyler.

    Simple supply and demand. The market is flooded to too many cars and not enough purchasers. Once GM and Crapslyer are gone people will still be buying cars to suit their transportation needs.
  41. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: We shouldn't be relying on other countries for these things, so we need tarrifs on our imports that make up for the difference in in the cost of a better environmental protection, better work environment and REASONABLE wages, then we can compete.

    It's funny you cried for tarriffs on our imports when other countries can do the same to you.

    Can you get the reality that China is the largest vehicle sale market in the world?
    With their huge population and economic growth, how do you think you can sell Canadian made vehicles to this hugh market, when they put import tariffs.

    Most of cars made in Canada shipped to US. You wish US to put tariffs on export from Canada.
  42. Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: (Posten the wrong one.))

    Just A Bystander

    A shirt made in Canada will not cost a whole lot more, not at all. If it did then oh well, I don't buy shirts everyday, I can save the money..not like I would have to save a lot. So at least WE would be working and we could have fewer people on assitance.

    People forget the trade deficit is not a good thing to have and costs us in the long run. The more welfare we have to dole out because people are not finding good work or making enough money costs us a whole lot more than the shirts we are spending a few cents more on There is no logical argument against that either. Just ideology that a certain group of elitist wanna bee's have to get over.
  43. Did you Know Canada?!? from Canada writes: How much money did these Franchise owners dump into GM??!
  44. K D from Canada writes: 'I must agree with the 'Buy Canadian' approach. I Will not be buying any new GM trucks now that they are out of Canada. Have you driven a Ford lately?'

    -----------

    FYI. Ford hasn't made pick-up trucks in Canada for 5 years.

    GM and Ford both have Canadian content so either one helps Canada equally.
  45. Bill Wall from BC, Canada writes: The article fails to analyze how closing dealerships will help GM. I presume the new vehicle inventories are financed by GM so it will cut inventory investment and help the balance sheet. However, closing dealerships will hurt sales, it's inevitable. The visibility of the new car lots sells cars, invisibility will not. By letting the govt run its business, GM is doomed to become an also-ran at best.
  46. Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: Edwin Lee

    Can you get the reality that China is the largest vehicle sale market in the world?

    ((The reason that is, its because we gave it to them by opening our markets without a tarrif so they can exploit their people. This comes to an end if we put a tariff on. They can put a tarrif on our resource exports all they want, doesn't mean they don't need them anyway. Second, I would not put a tarrif on the USA, just the countries that exploit their labor.))
  47. Sceptical Reader from Toronto, Canada writes: To Jason from Windsor: You actually believe in Christian Economics and that Murphy's Law is scientifically proven? I suggest you get your info from trustworthy sources and not the internet. Manufacturing has been dead for decades, the service industry. information and professional jobs are what is important these days. That's where you will find the middle class.
  48. Malone Sumself from Canada writes: The sheer number of dealerships points to an obvious glut.

    Comments above that indicate sales volumes at a third of foreign manufacturers outlets underline the D3 lack of foresight to change with the times.

    That said, there is going to be alot of admin clerks, salespeople, mechanics, financers, bookkeepers, office cleaners, etc that are going to be out of work. In smaller urban areas, this is going to hurt.
  49. mitchell roy from Calgary, Canada writes: This is simple economics, think about it. What happens to a company that grabs a larger share of a shrinking market. Those blaming NAFTA or say its a war on the middle class need to go take some economic course.

    Mitchell
  50. Man of La Mancha from Canada writes: Disgusted Canadian from Canada writes: Don't ever say that I didn't tell you so. Every union contract that always goes for wage increases and benifits, was just another nail in all the auto giants coffin. If this means getting rid of unions and their wild dreams, or at least putting them in their place, most NorthAmericans are all for it......

    Yes, you're right - most North Americans are for it, because they've been brainwashed by the corporate controlled media to think that unions are the problem. Meanwhile the Fat Cats on top get 300 times the salaries as the unionized employees, but that's okay. Yes, the unions are a problem for the Captains of Industry who would rather everyone worked in sweat shops like the Good Olde Days before unions. Don't applaud the race to the bottom - it's going to affect you and it won't be pretty. North Americans have bought into the lie that we're on top because we're so smart and savy. Guess what, so are the Chinese, Koreans, Indians and eveyone else working for a dollar a day. With Globalization, everything goes to the lowest bidder, there are a lot of intelligent, hard working, motivated people on the planet, willing to do your job for less. Who needs unions to protect workers and their jobs, right?
  51. D T from Canada writes: S.C. Davis from Canada writes: We have also decided we will not purchase anything not manufactured in Canada. Parts right up to finished product. The only problem will actually be toys.

    LOL! Better hope your tv and telephone don't break, or the computer you're using to post this. Are you giving up tea, coffee, rice, etc. etc.?
    Giving up those international flights on foreign made planes?

    Good luck in the log cabin!
  52. D K from Canada writes: 'S.C. Davis from Canada writes: We have never purchased anything but 'big three' automobiles and neither has any member of our extended family. One did once and found the heating system not even close to reliable in the winter months. We have also decided we will not purchase anything not manufactured in Canada. Parts right up to finished product. The only problem will actually be toys. Don't be part of the problem, buy Canadian.'

    So you are only using canadian computers, TV's , clothing? Yeah right. ANd GM sources parts from china.... good luck with that
  53. MD WK from Canada writes: I agree. Buy Canadian made - but buy a bicycle. Reduce your consumption. You'll live longer and feel better about life.
  54. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: Chapter II still seems the only viable option to save GM.

    Folks just don't want to give up a life time tradition.
    .
  55. Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: mitchell roy from Calgary, Canada writes: This is simple economics, think about it. What happens to a company that grabs a larger share of a shrinking market. Those blaming NAFTA or say its a war on the middle class need to go take some economic course.

    Mitchell

    ((Don't need to, we are seeing the result and the proof I am right and your side of the argument like Mr Lee is wrong.))
  56. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada ((The reason that is, its because we gave it to them by opening our markets without a tarrif so they can exploit their people. This comes to an end if we put a tariff on. )

    Did you know Canada has trade deficit with China?
    It means we buy more from China than they buy from them.
    It means we need their product more than they need from us.
    To use the same economic threat tactics as autoworkers, how many companies, workers & spin-off related to exports to China will be affected?

    You mean if we put a tariffs on China's export into Canada, they will be forced to buy cars from us? LOL

    (I would not put a tarrif on the USA, just the countries that exploit their labor.))
    You truly believed US will not put tariffs on us? They are doing it right now on our forestry industry.
  57. Master T from Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: This crazy bailout is hurting Ford.

    When GM & Chrysler get out of bankruptcy protection, we shall see Ford will file a bankruptcy.
    ..........................................................................................................

    I am not so sure about that. The CAW was so proud to stand on their 'pattern bargaining' platform when the GM contract was first negotiated and tried to pass the same contract on to Chrysler.

    The Canadian government didn't let that happen - and voila, we have a lower contract and GM is renegotiating with the CAW now too.

    Ford just needs to use the 'pattern bargaining' platform with the CAW and demand the same contract.

    Not to mention Alan Mullaly saw a crisis on the horizon and started making changes 3 years ago (and he sold anything of value outside of the core brand - and mortgaged everything left. That's why they're solvent now.

    There is a good chance that when the dust clears that Ford will leapfrog a few spots on the totem pole and be a stronger company with a stronger public perception.
  58. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: The reality fact here is the same amount of consumers will be buying the same amount of car products on the market, except they won't be GM or Crapsyle
    -------

    That truly is not the case. Only 2 years ago, total vehicle sales were around 16 million units in North America-and 2 million of those units were reported as sales using home equity loans!

    This year and next, the forcast is for 10 million units best case scenario and probably in the 9 million.

    This year, GM sales are down 44%-Ford down 40%-Chrysler down 46%-Toyota down 38%-and Honda down 31%

    The complete and comprehensive picture year to date for ALL companies and ALL models is found here:

    http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html
    .
  59. Joel Banks from Halifax, Canada writes: And how will the crowd on Bay Street metabolise this news? On past performance it will turn it into energy for another rise in the TSX index. After all, trade in low interest mortages, made possible by central bank suppression of interest on savings accounts, is a wonderful, evolutionary substitute for high employment manufacturing. Canada and the USA can depend on smug realtors to provide jobs with reliable salaries and pensions.
  60. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Man of La Mancha from Canada writes: Disgusted Canadian from Canada writes: Who needs unions to protect workers and their jobs, right?

    Don't worry, union will not disappear in NA.

    When union claimed to protect workers, they seek to ask other poorer workers to subsidize richer workers.

    Before union can protect my job, please stop taking money out of my pocket.

    I did not see union reduced the union due to help workers, or CAW president reduce his pay.
  61. Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: Edwin Lee

    (LOL wow you are not listening. OUR RESOURCES are NEEDED, not our CARS. Will they do without or oil? Will they do without our commodities? They can if they would like to see the prices shoot up but they won't. We can do without their textiles and their walmart junk, much of it we can make ourselves. You are really grasping at straws. We need to lower our approximetely 25 billion dollar deficit with them.

    (I would not put a tarrif on the USA, just the countries that exploit their labor.))
    'You truly believed US will not put tariffs on us? They are doing it right now on our forestry industry. '

    ((I know they are doing that and its just another reason to leave NAFTA)
  62. Lee D from Canada writes: The business model hasn't kept up with the times and I'm can't believe that all of these dealers are surprised that they are being closed down. Where have these guys been for the last few years, i.e. the writing was on the wall. Just shows how out of touch the entire Big 3 organizations really are, i.e. CEOs, dealers, unions, etc. Future dealers won't even have a 'sales' force. Most cars are a 'one sticker' price anyway. Internet shopping is growing leaps and bounds. Buying direct from the manufacturer over the internet is the way of the future using the 'one price' system. Local dealerships that are retained will be service centres and used car lots at best.
  63. Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Silver Standard, you sure a shirt made in Canada will only cost a few more cents? What about all electronics, toothbrush, cups, dishes, pens... Keep adding. There will always be people working at minimum wage, serving us coffee at Timmies. Again, why would it be beneficial for them to spend MORE for the same items made in Canada? It seems that you are trying to deprive basic items from our low income earners by artificially driving prices UP. If there's anything 'elitist', it's coming from you.
  64. Master T from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Did you know Canada has trade deficit with China? It means we buy more from China than they buy from them. It means we need their product more than they need from us. To use the same economic threat tactics as autoworkers, how many companies, workers & spin-off related to exports to China will be affected? .......................................................................................................... Edwin - you're missing the point. Manufacturing global products for export in China was virtually non-existant years ago - and in the beginning companies in search of a higher profit (at the expense of quality) moved their production to China. This was not too big a deal back then because the volume of products was small compared to the whole - trade deficit or not, the volume was inconsequential. Greedy companies have created this situation where manufacturing has left North America and gone to low cost producers like China - and our governments have not been guarding the gates (control volume through tariffs and monitor the impact on your home market) Now we have a situation where manufacturing of high volume items can't happen in any place BUT a low cost country. Give it enough time and China's workforce will be earning at a level where Chinese companies will start outsourcing jobs to lower cost countries - and the cycle starts again.
  65. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: 'Ford just needs to use the 'pattern bargaining' platform with the CAW and demand the same contract.'

    Not just labour cost. Debt load and dealer costs also. Ford cannot cut these cost without bankruptcy protection.

    GM & Chrysler will have much lower operating cost than Ford after bankruptcy protection.

    When they fight for the same group of D3 buyers, Ford will lose the battle.
  66. IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: The Unions totally destroyed these auto companies. So glad the auto union is a dinosaur hopefully never to return.

    The Gov't needs to focus on an end to the teachers union next. Fair wages for fair work. They are grossly overpaid and need a free market education system in competitive climate. This will result in a much higher educated workforce in generations to come thereby improving Canada itself.
  67. Common Sense from Canada writes: Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: ...What I am saying is that we should bring back the work we did have not so long ago like Textiles...'

    Yeah, that's what we need to stimulate this economy.
    Made in Canada shirts selling for $400.
  68. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: Give it enough time and China's workforce will be earning at a level where Chinese companies will start outsourcing jobs to lower cost countries - and the cycle starts again.

    Human adjust to changes. When we cannot compete in cost, we compete on quality, technology, design, etc.

    Most items imported from Japan, before they are made in China, are generally much more expensive. People still buy the products because of better quality and design.

    This is called competition. If you want a place without competition and everybody get the same pay, go to Cuba.
  69. Master T from Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: Not just labour cost. Debt load and dealer costs also. Ford cannot cut these cost without bankruptcy protection.
    .........................................................................................................

    I hear what you're saying, but neither Ford, GM, nor Chrysler own their dealerbody. They are privately owned franchised businesses that pay their own way.

    The manufacturer does pay them for warranty claims, parts returns, marketing support, etc. However, most of these things are based on vehicle volume and are tied to a serial number and not a dealership.

    GM and Chrysler still have to honour their commitments to the vehicles they sold, as does Ford.

    So Ford has some training and marketing costs related to dealerships that GM and Chrysler to not - that can be controlled by cutting that support (it happens all the time).

    I think this will have a small impact. The biggest costs are still legacy costs as it relates to paying pensions and benefits to retireees as well as the debt they're amassing currently on their lines of credit.
  70. Douglas Ives from Canada writes: Take a look at history folks. Protectionism is always a disaster. Do some research on events during the Great Depression of the '30's. Protectionism prolonged and exacerbated the suffering.

    Free trade is in the best interests of all economies. We do live in one world. Nationalism stinks! Check it out.
  71. SL S from Canada writes: The dealers are as bad as the manufacturers when it comes to giving people what they want. Saw a commercial on TV that said if I buy a GM I get Onstar for a year, XM radio for a year and free maintenance for 3 years. I don't want Onstar, I have no interest in XM radio and whoopie, I get a few uncharged oil changes. They've again failed to give the people what they are looking for. They both need to take a step back and ask the people what they are looking for and stop assuming that they know or control what the people are looking for. They may also want to stop paying unskilled labourers more than skilled labourers in other markets. Then they may actually attract some workers who use common sense and actually care about the products they are producing and show it with valued input which will better the product rather than just whine about wanting more perks for their shoddy work.
  72. Mayday Mayday Mayday from Canada writes: Edwin, you rock. Have you considered running in the next election?
  73. A C from Albertario, Canada writes:

    Will they be asking the Canucks to leave GM Place?

    That was some well-spent advertising dollars.


    .
  74. Cross the Border and up the Hill from Canada writes: Smokezz from Southern Ontario : when the globe and mail openly insult and slander certain individuals and groups in here while trying to protect their own biased interests they are fair game. If they want to act ignorant and then show their utter stupidity then they are open game. Might as well accept the whole eye for an eye bit and, as far as I'm concerned, the globe and mail is comparable to it's competitors as GM is to Toyota or Honda. Ignorance of others sheds a bad light but throw in the on-going mistakes (i.e. bad spelling, wrong pictures, etc..,) and you get total darkness.
  75. Louis Elias from Canada writes: Although it sucks for the employees, the truth is there are far too many dealerships.
  76. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Jason S from Windsor, Canada writes: Manufacturing is the backbone of any economy and once it is gone, the middle class will be wiped out.

    ============================================

    I would suggest that the 'backbone' of any economy, is farming. If you can't feed your population, nothing else really matters. And I am not - nor have I ever been - a farmer.

    You really need to stop getting ALL of your info spoon-fed to you from the boys down at the CAW union hall, OK? I know it will come as quite a shock - but quite a bit of it is, um - 'inaccurate'. Big chunks of it are just left-wing propaganda. Sorry.
  77. George Smiley from Canada writes: I see very little being accomplished that would not have been accomplished if GM and Chrysler had just been allowed to go into bankruptcy without any loans. One would have ended up at the same place more quickly, without all the extra loans and false hope.
  78. The Natrix from Toronto, Canada writes: Even though I've and many others have talked about this day of reckoning, only to be reinforced by the utter incompetenance both from Management and Union Leaders, but now that this day is actually here, it is still a sobering and saddening moment.
  79. The Remnant from Canada writes: :
    Douglas Ives from Canada writes: Take a look at history folks. Protectionism is always a disaster. Do some research on events during the Great Depression of the '30's. Protectionism prolonged and exacerbated the suffering.

    Free trade is in the best interests of all economies. We do live in one world. Nationalism stinks! Check it out.


    ----

    You are correct. Trade deficits/surpluses are reported because the statistics are being tracked. We don't track trade imbalances between BC and Ontario, Toronto and Montreal, and the street you live on vs an other street, or between family members, right? See how silly it is?

    Let's do an analysis.

    Trade deficits and surpluses are an important issue that mainstream economists always get wrong.

    In the context of fiat paper money, a trade surplus is bad for the country with a surplus. A trade deficit is good for the country with the deficit.

    Suppose you have a trade surplus. You were a net exporter of goods and services. In return, you received a piece of paper that will lose value over time due to inflation. Essentially, some people in the country with a surplus worked for free.

    Suppose you have a trade deficit. Here, there are two separate cases. Suppose you are a third world country. The governments' debts are denominated in dollars or euros, but its income is in its local currency. The country is forced to run a trade surplus later so it can repay its foreign debt. Massive debt burdens are a tool used to enslave people in third world countries. The political leaders eagerly agree to the loans, because most of the money winds up in their own pockets. During the next recesssion/depression, the massive loans are used as justification to steal people's wealth and savings.
  80. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: I hear what you're saying, but neither Ford, GM, nor Chrysler own their dealerbody. They are privately owned franchised businesses that pay their own way.

    If not much cost associated with dealership, GM & Chrysler will not cut the dealer network.

    Also GM & Chrysler will come back with much lower debts and hence intrest costs are much lower.
  81. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: (LOL wow you are not listening. OUR RESOURCES are NEEDED, not our CARS. )

    They need oil and steel, not necessarily from Canada though. They can buy from somewhere else. We still cannot force them to buy cars from us.

    ((I know they are doing that and its just another reason to leave NAFTA)
    You are not so sure if US will put tariffs on cars made in Canada, and China not buy from us. What do you suggest?
  82. The Remnant from Canada writes: :
    Consider the case of China, which has a huge trade surplus with the USA. China ships goods to the USA. The USA sends China a piece of paper. Who is getting a better deal, the USA or China?

    Mainstream economists say 'This arrangement is good for China. It provides full employment for workers in China.'

    To keep exchange rates stable, China prints new yuan (China's fiat money) and keeps a huge dollar reserve. When a business in China sells goods in the USA, it then trades its dollars with China's government for newly printed yuan. Effectively, the USA is exporting its inflation to China. Workers in China are subsidizing the profits of financial industry insiders in the USA.

    The custom of keeping dollars as reserves originated in the Bretton-Woods agreement at the end of World War II. Only the US dollar would be gold-redeemable, but only by foreign central banks. Other countries would peg their currency to the US dollar. Besides, it's better to hold Treasury Bonds than physical gold, because Treasury debt earns interest and gold does not. That was defective reasoning, because the dollar-denominated price of gold skyrocketed after the dollar/gold default in 1971. In the present, Treasury debt yields far less than true inflation. Gold is guaranteed to outperform Treasury debt over the next few years. In the present, there is massive inflation to bail out insiders.

    (con't)
  83. Prairie Boy from Canada writes: I have 2 dealerships where I live for GM. I bought my car in a small town 100 km away. Why? 2,500 dollars. Thsi was 10 years ago but I see the logos and they sell a lot of vehicles. While I was doing the paperwork the salesman took two calls, one was from about 300 km away and the other from 175. I never even dickered on the price because it was 2,500 dollars from the other two dealers. I did get mudflaps and the tire tax though.
  84. Man of La Mancha from Canada writes: IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: The Unions totally destroyed these auto companies. So glad the auto union is a dinosaur hopefully never to return.....The Gov't needs to focus on an end to the teachers union next. Fair wages for fair work. They are grossly overpaid and need a free market education system in competitive climate. This will result in a much higher educated workforce in generations to come thereby improving Canada itself.'

    You are absolutely wrong and you have no idea what you're talking about. Your ignorance shows the need for further investment in education (yours). Study private vs public education and you will come to a different conclusion.
  85. Lamont Lamont from Canada writes: Next will be a cry to bailout the dealerships. BS to that idea. No more bailouts or stimulus. Cut the size of government end useless spending programs like Offical Multicult and Bilingualism. And give us all a tax cut for a stimulus. What does Quebec and California have in Common. Quebec has 7 million people California has over 30M people they both have the same size of Government.
  86. SL S from Canada writes: The Natrix, well put. Pretty much sums up the entire situation.
  87. Freddy Rose from Canada writes: ' Jason S from Windsor, Canada writes: Why do you think your government that you pay taxes to would ship your jobs to China . . . .'

    The government didn't ship any jobs to China. All government jobs are still right here in Canada.

    The jobs that got shipped to China are the jobs in private companies. And they do it to make more money, and to sell their products to the consumer for less. So, we consumers are partly to blame for jobs going overseas. If we all started demanding products made in Canada, then maybe we would have manufacturing jobs here. BUT, we would have to be willing to pay more for those products. Catch 22 isnt' it?
  88. Michael S from Canada writes: Too bad, so sad. But, under no circumstances must there be any bailout monies given. If the organization fails, then it fails.

    And, I refuse to ever purchase a bailout vehicle! All persons should make this stance.
  89. Master T from Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: If not much cost associated with dealership, GM & Chrysler will not cut the dealer network.
    ..........................................................................................................

    Not true - they need dealerships to be profitable to be appropriately motivated and able to credibly carry out their mandate as dealers.

    GM has almost twice as many dealerships in Canada as Ford does and Chrysler has about the same number. GM does not sell twice the cars and Chrysler doesn't sell as much as Ford - their dealer numbers are out of whack.

    The reason why this is so, is because Ford has been reducing the number of dealers for the last 3 years already. A testiment to Alan Mullaly's foresight and forethought.

    Smart man.
  90. Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes: Quote of the day: 'Union leader Ken Lewenza has said the federal and Ontario governments set a strict deadline for them to settle on a new agreement.

    They are expected to make deeper cuts than the deal they negotiated with GM in March – before the union accepted harsher rollbacks with Chrysler.

    Mr. Lewenza has said if there is no deal the governments will provide no financial support and GM Canada will be liquidated.'

    I seriously lol'd in a library. A deal takes TWO sides to reach an agreement Ken... And speaking of Ken, I can get my hands on a really nice spatula when you need one.
  91. michael smith from Toronto, Canada writes: cant the CAW just get the heck out of there now - and let GM have some sort of possibility to survive ???

    No, lets take out 1000s of jobs just on principle.
    CAW should be ashamed right now they caused this whole collapse.
  92. A. Nonymous from TV Ville, United States writes: 'Manufacturing is the backbone of any economy and once it is gone, the middle class will be wiped out. '

    No, the backbone of the economy is innovation and research.

    without that, there is nothing for the manufacturing sector to do.
  93. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: Not true - they need dealerships to be profitable to be appropriately motivated and able to credibly carry out their mandate as dealers.

    Then, it is not logical to cut dealers.

    When not much cost associated with keeping the dealer, just keep them there to provide service and sales.

    You did not respond to the lower interet costs of GM & Chrysler after bankruptcy protection.
  94. Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes: 'A deal takes TWO sides to reach an agreement'

    Historically the CAW only need to extort their employer by going on strikes to obtain their demands, so it's pretty much one sided. If it worked so well in the past, why not use it again today?

    Hey CAW workers, at least for those that still have jobs, a strike is long due.
  95. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Manufacturing is the backbone of any economy and once it is gone, the middle class will be wiped out. '

    From manufacturing workers' point of view, this is right.

    From everyone else's point of view, this is funny.
  96. Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes: A. Nonymous from TV Ville, United States writes: 'Manufacturing is the backbone of any economy and once it is gone, the middle class will be wiped out. '

    No, the backbone of the economy is innovation and research.

    without that, there is nothing for the manufacturing sector to do.

    No. An economy is the total value of the goods and services produced by a nation. The backbone is the people. You NEED a complex system of primary, secondary and tertiary industries to make it successfull, and in the end, the financial sector and government determine just how fast the economy will grow. Economics 101
  97. Iain's Opinion from Canada writes: QUOTE 'Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: Give it enough time and China's workforce will be earning at a level where Chinese companies will start outsourcing jobs to lower cost countries - and the cycle starts again.'

    It started years ago, some of the Chinese business people have been outsourcing for decades because of high labour costs. It just hasn't gotten as rough as it is here in NA
  98. Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes: Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes: 'A deal takes TWO sides to reach an agreement'

    Historically the CAW only need to extort their employer by going on strikes to obtain their demands, so it's pretty much one sided. If it worked so well in the past, why not use it again today?

    Hey CAW workers, at least for those that still have jobs, a strike is long due.

    The CAW is definitely used to having their way with GM of Canada, and all three franchises in Canada for that matter: but the leverage is is with GM, who is threatening bankruptcy. If that happens, all previous contracts are nullified, including pensions, benefits, etc etc. Ken should literally, be BEGGING for his job right now, before every Canadian plant ends up like Oshawa. Since that isn't happening, Kenny and the boys will be fighting the recession with this:

    http://wendyusuallywanders.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/spatula.jpg
  99. Lamont Lamont from Canada writes: CAW go on strike. Let Jack Layton and Lewenza lead you to destruction. FOOLS. No momey for FOOLS.
  100. APP * from Windsor, Canada writes: Bill Wall from BC, Canada writes: The article fails to analyze how closing dealerships will help GM. I presume the new vehicle inventories are financed by GM so it will cut inventory investment and help the balance sheet. However, closing dealerships will hurt sales, it's inevitable. The visibility of the new car lots sells cars, invisibility will not. By letting the govt run its business, GM is doomed to become an also-ran at best. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill you bring up a good point about the article not analyzing how closing dealerships will help GM but GM, Chrysler (and Ford...they'll have to cut too to keep pace) are immensely overfranchised relative to Toyota as an example. With too many dealers and too many brands you destroy brand recognition and value. Rebating and discounting are the result. Witness the bad job Ford did with the Taurus years ago. As well, its a chance to cull bad or marginal dealers who do damage to the car companies they represent and turn off customers. How many times have I read complaints here in the Globe about lousy service and lousy dealership experiences only for that consumer to turn to Toyota or Honda or Nissan. I had my own personal experience with a Chrysler dealership here in Windsor that was so bad after two Chrysler products I bought a Mazda. As for dealership visibility its all selective. Yesterday Chrysler gave notice to dealerships in big cities and small towns. Probably a key for GM is not to turn over a dealership site that can be snapped up by a transplant brand. So who knows?
  101. Lance Uppercut from Canada writes: S.C. Davis, why would I buy Canadian, when a foreign company produces something for cheaper and of better quality? Why does a Canadian worker deserve to make $30 an hour when a foreign worker can do the same work for $2 a day? I will buy the highest quality for the lowest price, I don't care if the person who made it was privileged enough to be born in Canada or not.
  102. AW C from Canada writes: Buy Canadian? 'big 3' is a American company not a Canadian company. They assemble car in Canada so do Toyota or Honda. The only difference is 'big 3' have the union.
  103. Louis Elias from Canada writes: Overall, many of the posters here seem to believe that this is the end of the Big 3.

    It's not. They are simply, finally realizing that they needed to cut back on production, expense and duplication. They will all continue and with the new streamlining, will be successful.

    Many jobs are gone today, but once they rebuild and things start to straighten out, they will slowly start to grow and expand, just like a normal company.

    All of you doom sayers think that this is the end for them are just plain wrong. Think about it.

    ...and as a parting comment...I agree that Ford is stuck now.....because they didn't ask for money, they are stuck with a crappy, overpriced union contract that may force them to re think/re negotiate the next contract and take a hard line doing so. Or consider CH11.

    The majority of you need to get over yoursleves...you are not that smart.
  104. Richard Keefer from Omemee, Canada writes: It'll be interesting if a new sales model emerges from all of this, to replace the ridiculous and wasteful gaming that goes on when you simply want to buy a car, get a reasonable deal, and know there'll be tolerable service afterwards.

    'Sceptical Reader', hate to say that 'service industry' is as much a myth as 'Christian Economics'. In the most basic of terms, those in the service industry are anxious to trade the paper they have received for spewing out intangibles,-- for goods. As the Chinese have demonstrated with incredible enterprise and discipline,-- and as our society found over past centuries,-- producing goods generates wealth. The problem we will soon be confronting is that of China finding an exit strategy, in trying to convert their trillions of dollars of paper into tangibles such as owning Canada's resource production and useful property.

    Information jobs are a fleeting thing that depend largely on maintaining poorly designed systems, and of course, all that Windows 7 revenue will flow out of Canada. Microsoft may be one of the last holdouts, but be assured that China will get rid of it with whatever Red Flag system they opt for. The Red Flag Linux used in their schools has an English version, but after the monopolistic abuses of MS, who could blame them for using language and code barriers in the systems they arrive at for a trade advantage?

    If you don't see the icebergs ahead, be tipsy and merry until that crunching sound.
  105. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Louis Elias from Canada writes: Overall, many of the posters here seem to believe that this is the end of the Big 3.

    In the short term, yes.

    If sales not go back to the same level as 2007 or more within 2 years, without additional bailout, all D3 may fall again.

    We are manully keeping 3 giant tiger feeding on a smaller piece of meat.

    When no more meat on its way within the next 2 weeks, all 3 tigers died.

    Having only the strongest 1 or 2 tigers stay, it will survive for more than 2 weeks until the next meat come. Unless we keep on feeding them with our own meat. Then we died.
  106. Just A Bystander from Canada writes: S.C. Davis from Canada writes: We have also decided we will not purchase anything not manufactured in Canada. Parts right up to finished product. The only problem will actually be toys. Don't be part of the problem, buy Canadian.

    If you see some dude driving his D3 truck naked, it's probably S.C Davis since he'll refuse to wear any clothing not made in Canada. S.C Davis, turn off your computer. Doubt many components inside were made in Canada.
  107. Le Penguin Guru from Canada writes: My God, Edwin, plz feed the tiger with ur own meat :D
  108. anonymous in Ont from Canada writes: I know one GM dealership in my area that should be closed down. After dealing with them I decided never to buy GM again. They were nothing but outright crooks
  109. Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: What are CAW members going to do now? Rent a bunch of buses and protest the closing of dealerships?

    HAHAHAHAHA!
  110. IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: Even if the CAW paid its workers $14.50 per hour like KIA's new plant in Georga, still no one would buy their crap cars.

    If a $30,000 new Malibu was priced at $9,500 most buyers would not even consider purchasing the car. GM has made overpriced junk for years and is bankrupt because of it.

    GM reminds me of Micky Rorke in the Wrestler. An old washed up has been ready to be put to pasture.

    GM= Garbage Motors

    RIP
  111. John Johnson from Canada writes: Edwin Lee, yesterday you talk about dogs and sausages, today tigers and meat. Yo anawogees make no sense! Your ill-thought-out comments remind me of following saying: Confucious say, 'Many who repeat many cliche destined to be irrelevant VERY FAST'! Awe so!
  112. Le Penguin Guru from Canada writes: ha haha, good one! The Canadian Confucius says only garbage :D
  113. s c from Canada writes: Bill Wall from BC, Canada writes: The article fails to analyze how closing dealerships will help GM. I presume the new vehicle inventories are financed by GM so it will cut inventory investment and help the balance sheet. However, closing dealerships will hurt sales, it's inevitable. The visibility of the new car lots sells cars, invisibility will not. By letting the govt run its business, GM is doomed to become an also-ran at best.

    --------------------------------------

    Bill - The visibility of more new car lots dos not result in more new car sales. Cars are not spur of the moment purchase - driving by a new car lot will not make them decide to buy a new car. When a person needs a new car, he/she will research which car best meets their needs and provides the best value. They will then buy the car they need. Fewer car lots will increase the sales/lot as the number of cars purchased will not change.
  114. bruce desjardins from windsor, Canada writes: Maybe it won't matter that you will have fewer options when you want to buy a GM or Chrysler, but when it comes to getting service, the remaining dealerships will be solidly booked. That's when owners will feel the pain.
  115. Master T from Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Then, it is not logical to cut dealers.

    When not much cost associated with keeping the dealer, just keep them there to provide service and sales.

    You did not respond to the lower interet costs of GM & Chrysler after bankruptcy protection.
    ............................................................................................................

    I actually agree with you on the lower interest costs.

    However, the decision to keep or eliminate a dealer is not strictly an economic decision. Dealership facilities are able to handle a certain target number of customers. They require a certain minimum level of staffing to keep the doors open and provide service. If they don't sell enough cars, service quality dwindles as staff are laid off.

    Every manufacturer under the sun hangs their hat on a certain minimum level of satisfactory customer service.

    Sending a customer into an environment full of unprofitable dealers can be equated to sending a chicken into a hungry lion's den.

    No manufacturer wants to subject their customers to that kind of environment - so they axe dealers.
  116. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Le Penguin Guru from Canada writes: My God, Edwin, plz feed the tiger with ur own meat

    I refused and that's why I posted here.

    You are not so smart to get it. :D
  117. Being Canadian from Canada writes: With a few exceptions, the myopic, ignorant rants (seriously uninformed opinion) of people on this forum is mind boggling. Utterly shocking. Our country is doomed.
  118. Rob Bairos from Toronto, Canada writes: As difficult as this will be for the employees and their families (and even the communities built around these industries). Its very important we realize the inevitable collapse of industries propped by government subsidy and overprotected union representation.

    Calls to increase protectionism, slap tarrifs on foreign investment, strengthen union cartels, etc is pushing that snowball further uphill.

    You cant safely disregard market forces anymore than you can safely disregard gravity.

    Lets see the collapse of these unnatural dinosaurs as a chance to finally do things right.
  119. Core Vette from NORTH, Canada writes: Prairie Boy;

    Since you are such a great vehicle shopper, I hope that you spent the $2500 that your local dealer was trying to get you to pay in your home town. Especially if it truly is a prairie town.
  120. Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes: Louis Elias writes: ...and as a parting comment...I agree that Ford is stuck now.....because they didn't ask for money, they are stuck with a crappy, overpriced union contract that may force them to re think/re negotiate the next contract and take a hard line doing so. Or consider CH11.

    The majority of you need to get over yoursleves...you are not that smart.

    Actually, I AM that smart and informed. Ford borrowed enough money before the crisis began, as well as renegotiating a deal on their contracts with the UAW/CAW unions... that's why they're not asking for gov aid, because they already got a loan. They are where GM and Chrysler want to be, with good contracts, and fewer brands. Do your research son.
  121. j wilson from vancouver, Canada writes:
    Fine. Now we have an empty plant and a city of available people with manufacturing skills.

    Retool for light rail. Cheap housing in Oshawa, a corridor already built to Union Station, and Toronto bursting at the seams with house or rent poor working class.

    GO bullet trains. use the existing track structure.
  122. Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Manufacturing is the backbone of any economy and once it is gone, the middle class will be wiped out. '

    From manufacturing workers' point of view, this is right.

    From everyone else's point of view, this is funny.

    ________________________

    No from everyone elses point of view its right too, the wealth those jobs create keeps our trade deficit lower, now we have to import that stuff. THose jobs also supported other jobs in the community by about 3 to 1.But I know its no use arguing with you because you convinced yourself you are right, when the proof is in and your wrong and so are people who think the same way.
  123. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes:

    Actually, I AM that smart and informed. Ford borrowed enough money before the crisis began, as well as renegotiating a deal on their contracts with the UAW/CAW unions... that's why they're not asking for gov aid, because they already got a loan. They are where GM and Chrysler want to be, with good contracts, and fewer brands. Do your research son.

    =========================================

    The ONLY reason that Ford is in better shape that Chrysler & GM is that Ford hit the financial wall several years ago, forcing them to make wrenching changes back then, as well as arranging for credit while it could be had. Ford's position relative to the other two is much more a case of good luck rather than good management.

    You're not all THAT smart & well informed, Jello...
  124. Eric Blair from Dominion of, Canada writes: To those who want to place all the blame on the 'greedy unions' I would draw your attention to Thursday's G&M 25 years ago column which mentions:

    No one could ever accuse Crispo of being a commie-socialist union supporter.
  125. Maple Leaves from Canada writes: Silver Sand,

    But there are also other in other industries that have same affect. We are just in painful transitionary phase.

    There are also other ways to reduce current accounts deficits other than increasing exports and or reducing consumption. For example increasing productivity. Productivity, education and innovation is what is going to keep this country going. That's were the billions we have invested in Chrysler and GM should have gone instead.
  126. Louis Elias from Canada writes: Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes: Louis Elias writes: ...and as a parting comment...I agree that Ford is stuck now.....because they didn't ask for money, they are stuck with a crappy, overpriced union contract that may force them to re think/re negotiate the next contract and take a hard line doing so. Or consider CH11. The majority of you need to get over yoursleves...you are not that smart. Actually, I AM that smart and informed. Ford borrowed enough money before the crisis began, as well as renegotiating a deal on their contracts with the UAW/CAW unions... that's why they're not asking for gov aid, because they already got a loan. They are where GM and Chrysler want to be, with good contracts, and fewer brands. Do your research son. --------------------- Afraid not Jello. The contracts are not even close to what GM and Chrysler have now. I DID my research....son. I think we agree, however, that at least Ford had the insight and the bollocks to do something about it earlier with the loans and selling off subsidiaries etc. They borrowed money indeed...but did not pi$$ away a few billion in bailout $. Ford can at least try and pay the loans back. In terms of future labour costs....GM and Chrysler are where Ford want to be.....son.
  127. Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: A number of slimy, car salespeople will be out of work. Perhaps they can
    find work as lawyers or financial advisors.

    LOL
  128. Master T from Canada writes:

    Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: A number of slimy, car salespeople will be out of work. Perhaps they can
    find work as lawyers or financial advisors.

    LOL
    ..........................................................................................................

    A lot of honest hard working Canadians and Americans will be out of work too.

    ....that never asked for a bailout and probably worked most of their lives without decent benefits or a company pension plan, or company funded child care. Just a pay cheque. Honest people like you and me.

    Give your head a shake.
  129. Chris B from Canada writes: I know this is talking about GM dealerships, but I had terrible after-sales service at Kennedy Ford in Oakville about 8 years ago.

    They booked me for service (the tire-recall from Firestone) at 3pm. I was there early (2:30). Was told it'll be awhile, no problem I say.

    They then tell me around 4:30 that they won't be able to do the service for me that day. They were going to keep my truck and give me a rental.

    The rental place informed me all was paid for except gas. I called Kennedy, they weren't going to cover it (I'm thinking wtf?). I had them bring me back to the dealer, told the service manager that I was very disappointed that they put me through this, particularly since they called me to book the day/time.

    I went back once to get the tire recall stuff done (after calling Ford Canada's HQ), and that's been it.

    Since then I've purchased two new Ford's at Meadowvale Ford in Mississauga. No issues, and all is well. I will keep going back until they screw me around, but I can't see that happening.

    So, two morals to my story:

    1) Just because I had bad service at one dealer doesn't mean the whole product is shabby (like some of you seem to indicate where you've switched manufacturer's because of a local dealer incident), and as long as the vehicle I drive works for me, then all is good there.

    2) Kennedy Ford sucks, and I wish they'd be shut down. No sympathy there if that happens. Good riddance to them.
  130. Jacqueline Hyde from Canada writes: It's truly incredible how so many mock, deride, and rub their hands together in glee as a Western manufacturing pillar crumbles. Almost seditious
  131. Louis Elias from Canada writes: Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes: Louis Elias writes: ...and as a parting comment...I agree that Ford is stuck now.....because they didn't ask for money, they are stuck with a crappy, overpriced union contract that may force them to re think/re negotiate the next contract and take a hard line doing so. Or consider CH11. The majority of you need to get over yoursleves...you are not that smart. Actually, I AM that smart and informed. Ford borrowed enough money before the crisis began, as well as renegotiating a deal on their contracts with the UAW/CAW unions... that's why they're not asking for gov aid, because they already got a loan. They are where GM and Chrysler want to be, with good contracts, and fewer brands. Do your research son. --------------------- Afraid not Jello. The contracts are not even close to what GM and Chrysler have now. I DID my research....son. I think we agree, however, that at least Ford had the insight and the bollocks to do something about it earlier with the loans and selling off subsidiaries etc. They borrowed money indeed...but did not pi$$ away a few billion in bailout $. Ford can at least try and pay the loans back. In terms of future labour costs....GM and Chrysler are where Ford want to be.....son.
  132. Louis Elias from Canada writes: Jello fuel from West City, Canada writes: Louis Elias writes: ...and as a parting comment...I agree that Ford is stuck now.....because they didn't ask for money, they are stuck with a crappy, overpriced union contract that may force them to re think/re negotiate the next contract and take a hard line doing so. Or consider CH11. The majority of you need to get over yoursleves...you are not that smart. Actually, I AM that smart and informed. Ford borrowed enough money before the crisis began, as well as renegotiating a deal on their contracts with the UAW/CAW unions... that's why they're not asking for gov aid, because they already got a loan. They are where GM and Chrysler want to be, with good contracts, and fewer brands. Do your research son. --------------------- Afraid not Jello. The contracts are not even close to what GM and Chrysler have now. I DID my research....son. I think we agree, however, that at least Ford had the insight and the bollocks to do something about it earlier with the loans and selling off subsidiaries etc. They borrowed money indeed...but did not pi$$ away a few billion in bailout $. Ford can at least try and pay the loans back. In terms of future labour costs....GM and Chrysler are where Ford want to be.....son.
  133. Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: Car salespeople and mechanics are amongst the least trusted professionals. Good riddance to them!

    http://www.collegecrunch.org/online/least-trusted-professions/
  134. AW C from Canada writes: S.C. Davis urge us to buy Canadian. 'Buy American' is exclude of Canada product. Why S.C. Davis' buy big 3 as buy Canadian?
  135. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: Car salespeople and mechanics are amongst the least trusted professionals. Good riddance to them!

    =========================================

    So, if all of the mechanics vanished, you'd somehow magically be capable of performing ALL of your own repair work?
  136. Louis Elias from Canada writes: Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: Car salespeople and mechanics are amongst the least trusted professionals. Good riddance to them!

    ---------------------------

    Huh?? Fix your own car then a$$hole!!!
  137. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: now we have to import that stuff. THose jobs also supported other jobs in the community by about 3 to 1.

    You are wrong that US will not put tariffs on Canada goods. How right you can be?

    You did not respond to my question what shall we do when US put tariffs on Canadians cars and China not buying cars from Canada.

    Have you seen USSR exported a lot of manufactured items ? Not all countries' economy built on manufacturing jobs. Your 3 to 1 assumption is wrong.
  138. Donald Wilson from Canada writes: So GM thinks that closing 1/2 of the dealers that were competiting for our business is going to raise profits for GM ? I got some bad news for them . Dealers sold product and made money . They paid GM invoice price no matter what the retail price was . The market determines retail price - not the dealers and certainly not the manufacturer . If they are going on the assumption they can control the selling price , they are headed for another bankrupcy in only a few years after the government money runs out . The public won't stand still for price gouging - especially these tough days .
  139. Master T from Canada writes:

    Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: Car salespeople and mechanics are amongst the least trusted professionals. Good riddance to them!
    .........................................................................................................

    It is common for small men not to trust what they don't understand.

    You don't understand the first thing about the auto industry or cars, therefor you don't trust anything related to it.

    But it's a good thing you're a small man because if all mechanics disappeared, you would need that small stature of yours to fit underneath your own car and fix it yourself.

    I hear Canadian Tire sells manuals that could help you out.
  140. Maple Leaves from Canada writes: S.C. Davis,

    What happen to Honda Civic and Acura CSX built in Alliston and the Toyota RAV4 Matrix and Lexus from Woodstock and Cambridge. Why are those not on your list of buy Canadian?

  141. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: However, the decision to keep or eliminate a dealer is not strictly an economic decision. Dealership facilities are able to handle a certain target number of customers. They require a certain minimum level of staffing to keep the doors open and provide service. If they don't sell enough cars, service quality dwindles as staff are laid off.

    When they don't sell cars, they will just close by themselves. Dealers are businesses that will not operate at a loss.

    They don't need GM or Chrysler to close the door for them, unless the money they get from GM/Chrysler exceeded the cost.

    Hence, GM/Chrysler must save costs by closing dealers.
  142. Master T from Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Your 3 to 1 assumption is wrong.
    .........................................................................................................

    Dude - I get that you're trying your best to defend your beliefs and your argument, but your understanding and rebuttal of other people's points is just too simple and basic sometimes.

    At some point in time you just have to admit that some of these people you're arguing against just know more than you about a particular subject.

    I admit when you make a good point. If you did the same, you may have some more credibility on these posts.

    Cheers and have a good long weekend!
  143. Master T from Canada writes:

    Donald Wilson from Canada writes: So GM thinks that closing 1/2 of the dealers that were competiting for our business is going to raise profits for GM ? I got some bad news for them . Dealers sold product and made money . They paid GM invoice price no matter what the retail price was.
    ..............................................................................................................

    The market for cars has shrunk / is shrinking. It will stay that way for a while. Leasing is almost gone (the short term ownership plan) and direct ownership / financing is back.

    This means people are holding onto their cars for longer with no pre-defined end date to their vehicle stewardship. This also means that fewer new cars will be sold each year.

    Sending a customer into a market flooded with starving dealers is the same as sending a chicken into a hungry lion's den - good for a bite, but the banquet's over.

    No manufacturer would be in business for long with their customers being ruthlessly grabbed at for every last dollar of profit. So they close some stores to ensure each dealer will be sufficiently profitable to treat and service their customers properly.
  144. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: 'At some point in time you just have to admit that some of these people you're arguing against just know more than you about a particular subject'

    Same logic apply to everyone, including you.
    I can tell you are wrong but you can say the same.
  145. joe garcia from Canada writes: GM going down fast.

    Less points of sale will translate into less sales, less revenue, decreased cashflow, loss of market share, loss of visibility...

    Soon GM will be a thing of the past.
  146. Ivan Wilson from Canada writes: Awww the scuzzy business practices that make up car sales are gonn be hurting are they? Too frikkin' bad. Try to imagine how little I give a sh!t.

    The low-life car salesmen are gonna be out of another con are they? Too frikkin' bad. Try to imagine how little I give a sh!t.

    The over-paid, underworked, too irresponsible, too greedy car workers are gonna be on EI and withoput a pension are they? Too frikkin' bad. Try to imagine how little I give a sh!t.

    Good riddance to a lousy business model.

    Now where's my Toyota keys?
  147. Jondas McHooter from Canada writes: Could someone explain to me why closing dealerships will raise the price of cars?

    And if they do raise the prices to something comparable to Honda/Nissan/Toyota etc..then the only thing left to differentiate between them will be reliablity.....u-oh.
  148. Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Silver Standard, you have yet to come back to my question, as to why would it be more beneficial to our neighbors working at Timmies to spend MORE money on Canadian goods, whereas they can buy for less when importing from China?

    Please don't suggest Timmies workers to unionize, or work in manufacturing. Someone's gotta serve my coffee after all.
  149. IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: KIA's new plant in Georgia pays $14.50 per hour.

    Not a bad wage to start right out of highschool with no education. Almost $28,000 per year for a no skill blind monkey can do the work job.

    Far cry from $76 per hour in Oshawa.
  150. Master T from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: When they don't sell cars, they will just close by themselves. Dealers are businesses that will not operate at a loss. They don't need GM or Chrysler to close the door for them, unless the money they get from GM/Chrysler exceeded the cost. ............................................................................................................ Spoken like a true bookworm without any understanding for the human side of the equation. Please Edwin, stop over simplifying things with logic pulled from a first year economics text book. Pure economics does not account for the poor customer treatment immediately prior to those stores closing their doors. You don't get it - those stores faced with extinction will fight, beg, cheat, and steal to stay afloat - at the customer's expense. No manufacturer closing 700 stores can afford the negative PR of all the ensuing scandal - so they close stores based on location, viability, customer treatment trackrecord (CSI scores), existing sales and sales potential. They plan closures to ensure the best stores stay open. Your next rebuttal will state that 'let the market decide' - but we all know that many unscrupulous business owners can stay afloat through poor service and dishonesty by making a good profit. Those stores won't make it in a controlled closure. Do you get it now?
  151. Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: I don't need any corrupt mechanics fixing my vehicle, thank you. I can fix
    it myself!
  152. CallofDuty . from Canada writes: 1,100 dealers to close??!?!??!...thats half they're dealerships!!!!
  153. b W from Canada writes: Silver Standard (We need Tariffs and an end to Globalism) from Canada writes: A shirt made in Canada will not cost a whole lot more, not at all. How can this be true when labour costs, which make up a signicant compnent of textiles, are significantly higher in Canada? Then, add in the cost of union labour and your comment is not at all logical. If it did then oh well, I don't buy shirts everyday, I can save the money..not like I would have to save a lot. So, if we made the shiirts in Canada but people would not buy them, and we cannot export because other countries would not buy hte higher proced shirt, then what is hte use? People forget the trade deficit is not a good thing to have and costs us in the long run But we predominantly have suprluses? While I understand the protectionist theory, I think that it is better suited to developing secondary industries for our resources than tertiary and artificially supported industries. For example, why do we export raw materials. just as hte government could easily increase taxes on commodities, they could also require secondary manufacturing instead. In this way, we do not force textile manufacturing here where there is no reality to this, but create industries logically supporting our raw materials.
  154. i coffey from Canada writes: Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Silver Standard, you have yet to come back to my question, as to why would it be more beneficial to our neighbors working at Timmies to spend MORE money on Canadian goods, whereas they can buy for less when importing from China?

    Because if you're supporting foreign businesses then you are supporting the convergence of that foreign economy with our own 'advanced' one with our higher standard of living, and you are thus contributing to the deterioration of that SOL. Trading one SOL for a SOL of another kind... pretty soon all the jobs that Timmies worker could trade up to are long gone, and his/her only option is one which pays a crappy wage.
  155. Master T from Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: 'At some point in time you just have to admit that some of these people you're arguing against just know more than you about a particular subject'

    Same logic apply to everyone, including you.
    I can tell you are wrong but you can say the same.
    ............................................................................................................

    Edwin - it's not the same, and your post just now proves it. The difference between you and me is that I can admit when you have a point and say so.

    You just oppose every viewpoint of anyone that opposes you.

    You have zero credibility when you do that.

    Not to mention, your simplistic approach in some cases is just sooo simple that I can tell you're out of your element.

    The auto industry is my element. It is my profession (and no I am not a D3 or any manufacturer's employee - but I work with them all). I have done this for the last 19 years. Corporate, dealership, consulting, and everything in between.

    You?
  156. Jacqueline Hyde from Canada writes: Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: I don't need any corrupt mechanics fixing my vehicle, thank you. I can fix
    it myself!

    Highly doubtful
  157. joe garcia from Canada writes: Decrerased GM Goodwrench dealer services will mean increased wait times for GM owners requiring mechanical work.

    Less service will translate into increased disatisfaction. Again leading to less sales, less market share, and decreased profitability.

    G.oing M.ushy
  158. Master T from Canada writes:

    Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: I don't need any corrupt mechanics fixing my vehicle, thank you. I can fix
    it myself!
    ..............................................................................................................

    Now that is something to laugh about. 'Smithers, pass me the round-a-ma-tron and the smack-a-ma-dooley so that I can release the conjundulator and apply the flux capacitor'.

    Sure you can fix your own car. Do you have an OBD2 scan tool to diagnose your computer. Do you know what OBD even is?

    This ain't the '50s anymore Monty.
  159. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Jacqueline Hyde from Canada writes: Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: I don't need any corrupt mechanics fixing my vehicle, thank you. I can fix
    it myself!

    Highly doubtful

    ==========================================

    Indeed - it was just yesterday that I read where they're changing the laws here, forcing automakers to make their diagnostic computer equipment and programs available for sale here, to aftermarket repair shops. Without those, there are a whole bunch of diagnostics that you simply CANNOT perform. Even so, no back-yard mechanic is buying this stuff - you'd never use it enough. I also seriously doubt that Mr Burns has a tire machine, alignment machine, etc etc.

    Best of luck to him, though.
  160. D Peters from Alberta, Canada writes: R E from Toronto, Canada writes: Read an interesting stat the other day. GM averages about 300 sales per dealer in North America. Toyota was over 1,200 and Honda over 1,300 from what I recall.

    ===================

    Just curious but what time frame are you using?

    ===================

    This problem isn't alone in the automotive sector. In Alberta here if you want to buy a Caterpillar product you have to buy it from Finning. They have something like 10 dealerships in Western Canada. They are nowhere near capable of even carrying out warranty work let alone need wear and tear type repairs. BUT if you want warranty you have to take it to them. And you can wait two months for it to be repaired. Caterpillar laid off at least a 1/3 of thier network.

    Time to look at Komatsu.
  161. joe garcia from Canada writes: Big3 owners must be either 1) very mechanically and electronically inclined, or 2) very dependant on a good mechanic.

    Meanwhile, Lexus/Toyota/Honda/Acura/Subaru/Audi/Volvo/BMW... owners can chill and relax in the confort that comes with quality.

    Quality brings peace of mind.

    Big3 brings you closer to your Mechanic, and your Mechanic gets close to your pocket.

    Let Canadian Consumers decide between peace of mind, or dependance on mechanics.
  162. Just A Bystander from Canada writes: i coffey: Can you explain how can our Timmies worker, earning minimum wage, improve his standard of living when he needs to pay more for the same items when they are made in Canada? Because goods cost more while his wage remains the same, he must cut back on other essentials things in life, thus decreasing his own standard of living. I'm sorry but you lost me on that one. Care to re-elaborate?
  163. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: You just oppose every viewpoint of anyone that opposes you. You have zero credibility when you do that.

    I am sure you know nothing about debate.

    No party in a debate will say the other side has no credibility because they oppose every viewpoint. Not to mention that the point of the other side is wrong.

    Zero point, Master T, you lose.
  164. Louis Elias from Canada writes: Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: I don't need any corrupt mechanics fixing my vehicle, thank you. I can fix
    it myself!

    ------------

    Putting gas in your car is not actually fixing it.
  165. Master T from Canada writes:

    Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Indeed - it was just yesterday that I read where they're changing the laws here, forcing automakers to make their diagnostic computer equipment and programs available for sale here, to aftermarket repair shops. Without those, there are a whole bunch of diagnostics that you simply CANNOT perform
    .............................................................................................................

    There is equipment that allows aftermarket shops to perform these fuctions available today.

    However, some of these functions related to safety items like airbags are locked out because it is assumed that only factory trained technicians should be the only ones working on such crucial systems.

    Not to mention that the local garage handling things such as airbags without enough information could have a serious accident even causing death.
  166. joe garcia from Canada writes: Here's an EXCELLENT LINK that sums up the current trend with regards to Car Dealerships...

    http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/2009/05/11/daily90.html

    Non-competitive companies closing them down like hot cakes, which is simply offset by the leading companies who are opening NEW DEALERSHIPS to best serve the needs of Consumers.

  167. Richard Merriman from Reunion writes: b W, Silver Standard - Ruby Dhalla can get you Canadian made shirts for half the cost of Chinese made.
  168. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: They plan closures to ensure the best stores stay open.

    This is still a cost to GM/Chrysler to let bad dealer open, although not monetary.

    When GM & chrysler can clse bad dealers during bankruptcy protection while Ford cannot, Ford is hurt.

    You already agreed that Fod is hurt in more interest cost.

    Hence, my conclusion is correct.
  169. Master T from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: You just oppose every viewpoint of anyone that opposes you. You have zero credibility when you do that. I am sure you know nothing about debate. No party in a debate will say the other side has no credibility because they oppose every viewpoint. Not to mention that the point of the other side is wrong. ............................................................................................................. Well now you're just being funny. You can't win on the 'knowledge' side of the argument, so you change the topic to 'debating skills'. ROTGLMAO And by the way - debaters need to be able to acknowledge facts and truths their opponent has just used against them and incorporate those FACTS into their own argument and still make it work. So no Edwin - you lose because you aren't even able to acknowlege when I am using fact and I am right. Debate is not about lying. You have tried on many occasions to tell me that my facts are wrong - when a quick google search of a reputable source will tell you I am right. You haven't managed to correct your argument in the face of fact - making your argument wrong - a lie. That is not a debate. That's called arguing with a 2 year old. 'It's your bed time'....' Not it's not'. Period.
  170. joe garcia from Canada writes: Celebrate GOOD TIMES, Come-On, lets celebrate, it's a celebration...

    http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/2009/05/14/auto-upheaval-two-local-chrysler-dealerships-are-casualties-while-toyota-dealer-celebrates
  171. Chris B from Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: Sure you can fix your own car. Do you have an OBD2 scan tool to diagnose your computer. Do you know what OBD even is?
    --------------------
    oooo oooo Mr Kotta, Mr Kotta I know that answer! waves arm wildly

    Is it 'on-board diagnostic-ator-ma-thingy?'

    Gold star please? :)
  172. Master T from Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: They plan closures to ensure the best stores stay open.

    This is still a cost to GM/Chrysler to let bad dealer open, although not monetary.

    When GM & chrysler can clse bad dealers during bankruptcy protection while Ford cannot, Ford is hurt.
    ..............................................................................................................

    Except that GM is not currently in bankruptcy protection - an important FACT you ignored.

    Always ignoring the FACTS Edwin. Grow up.
  173. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes:

    There is equipment that allows aftermarket shops to perform these fuctions available today.

    However, some of these functions related to safety items like airbags are locked out because it is assumed that only factory trained technicians should be the only ones working on such crucial systems.

    Not to mention that the local garage handling things such as airbags without enough information could have a serious accident even causing death.

    =====================================

    If the aftermarket stuff does all, why bother passing a law forcing automakers make theirs available?
  174. Richard Merriman from Reunion writes: joe garcia, use www.tinyurl.com pls
  175. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: You have tried on many occasions to tell me that my facts are wrong

    You think Ford will not hurt by bailout is wrong.

    Higher interest cost & bad dealers for Ford, when GM & Chrysler can get rid of both.
  176. Seasoned Warrior from Canada writes: Hindsight generally being 20-20, it will be interesting to look back in 5 years or so and realize that bailing these companies out was a huge and costly mistake. I strongly doubt that they will have much of a presence in Canada in 5 years - bye bye to our money. I'd like to be wrong - and maybe time will show that I am....but I doubt it.
  177. Master T from Canada writes:

    Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: If the aftermarket stuff does all, why bother passing a law forcing automakers make theirs available?
    ....................................................................................

    Good point. Currently the manufacturers of the aftermarket equipment spend thousands of development hours cracking the manufacturer's code.

    The laws are there to force manufacturers to make their code available for free.

    The issue at hand is intellectual property. If this law is passed, what's stopping illegal downloaders of movies, etc from using the same argument to make their illegal activity legal?
  178. Master T from Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:
    You think Ford will not hurt by bailout is wrong.
    ............................................................................................

    I never said that.
  179. joe garcia from Canada writes: to Richard Merriman:

    here's a tiny URL to a BIG CELEBRATION:

    http://tinyurl.com/o6atwb
  180. Richard Merriman from Reunion writes: joe g. tyvm
  181. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: Except that GM is not currently in bankruptcy protection - an important FACT you ignored.

    Chrysler applied to bankruptcy court to close bad dealers still with franchise agreement.

    These bad dealers can only be closed by apllication to bankruptcy courts.

    GM is not in bankruptcy now and the fact that it is easier to deal with bad dealer issue in bankruptcy court.

    Avoiding bankruptcy of D2 actually hurt Ford.
  182. Knuckles Muldoon from Etobicoke, Canada writes: Anyone else notice the GM Trucks commercial on the hockey game on CBC last night? I found that odd given what happened in Oshawa yesterday.

    And the hockey arena in Vancouver is still called "GM Place" - they still find money to pay for that too .....
  183. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes:

    Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: If the aftermarket stuff does all, why bother passing a law forcing automakers make theirs available?
    ....................................................................................

    Good point. Currently the manufacturers of the aftermarket equipment spend thousands of development hours cracking the manufacturer's code.

    The laws are there to force manufacturers to make their code available for free.

    The issue at hand is intellectual property. If this law is passed, what's stopping illegal downloaders of movies, etc from using the same argument to make their illegal activity legal?

    ==========================================

    I don't believe that the automakers will be required to make it available for free, just available for sale.
  184. joe garcia from Canada writes: It's really nice to see how some Canadian dealerships are expanding their operations to better serve the needs of Canadian consumers.

    http://tinyurl.com/opytfz
  185. joe bloagh from Canada writes: Core Vette, grow up, my friend.

    Whether it's the Globe & Mail or the National Enquirer, when they do stories on the NA auto sector, disaster is all they can find because that's all there is to find.

    For 20 years anyone with a pea for a brain or more has realized our environment is in dire straits. Perhaps you've missed that (probably more likely you've wanted the world to ignore it), but the rest of us didn't.

    Well GM just smiled and created the Hummer. Chrysler not to be outdone took on its own trucking madness by disguising trucks as cars and convincing fools they were cool to have one.

    To be brutally honest Core, we have not needed the millions of polluting cars and trucks on the road ever. The only reason we are still choking because of the internal combustion engine is politicans have pockets to fill and idiots have money to burn.

    Public transit would have served Canada just as well as gridlock on most cities at far less costs economically and environmentally.

    Note to I Hate Unions, try raising a family on $14 an hour and you'll learn quick why only an anti-union jerk would make such a statement as you did.
  186. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: "I never said that."

    This is what you wrote on 10:09 AM:
    "There is a good chance that when the dust clears that Ford will leapfrog a few spots on the totem pole and be a stronger company with a stronger public perception. "

    in response to my post about bailout actually hurt Ford.
  187. can I vote again from around-Kingston, Canada writes: article: 'Governments will lose thousands of dollars in tax revenue as dealerships are forced to close.'

    well as long it's not millions of dollars

  188. Been There Done It from Canada writes: joe garcia from Canada writes: Decrerased GM Goodwrench dealer services will mean increased wait times for GM owners requiring mechanical work.

    Less service will translate into increased disatisfaction. Again leading to less sales, less market share, and decreased profitability.

    What are you talking about???? Warranty work?? If not, then you got thousands of other garages with skilled mechanics to do the work. I've owned 15 new cars and trucks in my life, and never will take them to a dealer for repair unless it was warranty work, otherwise they are twice the cost. The mark up on parts at dealers is ridiculous.
  189. James Douglas from Victoria, Canada writes: I would like to know more about how GM's dealership network works. I always understood that dealerships bought the cars - deeply discounted, but still "bought" through a credit program they had set up with GM. It seems to me that under that system the dealerships that are likely to survive will, without GM arbitrarily closing them.
    Can anyone flesh this out for me?
  190. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: joe bloagh from Canada: Yes, yes joe - it's all a rich tapestry. But environmental reasons have NOTHING to do with Chrysler & GM being on the ropes and dumping dealers.
  191. joe garcia from Canada writes: Been there done it:

    Yup, warranty work is mostly what I was refering to.

    Buy the way, I wouldn't bet any money as to how much longer will GM or Chrysler "warranties" will actually be honoured by anyone of those other thousands of garages...

    Unless those other garages have confidence in expecting full reimbursement from Bankrupt-bound organizations such as GM and Chrysler...
  192. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: joe garcia from Canada writes: Been there done it:

    Yup, warranty work is mostly what I was refering to.

    Buy the way, I wouldn't bet any money as to how much longer will GM or Chrysler "warranties" will actually be honoured by anyone of those other thousands of garages...

    Unless those other garages have confidence in expecting full reimbursement from Bankrupt-bound organizations such as GM and Chrysler...

    =========================================

    I believe that there was a story recently about Obama promising to backstop warranties.
  193. Westcoastser from Delta from Canada writes: Knuckles Muldoon...if memeory serves me right GM paid $20 million as a one shot payment to have the hockey arena in Vancouver named GM Place. I don't think they make ongoing payments.
  194. jimmy juju from Canada writes: what's a few hundred thousand jobs anyway - we can all work at a bank or be a government regulator since they'll be the only businesses left after the govts are finished with the wrecking ball to the private sector. Only the elites will survive this carnage.

    Let's see we can all give loans to each other and never pay them off and be totally oblivious to the world around us who basically decides that our countries aren't worth propping up any longer.

    Then the govt will create a war against and our children will go fight for the right to never pay debts off, shop till we drop, buy 100 inch TV's,etc.

    What a depressing day this is. Time to go fishing.
  195. Master T from Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: "I never said that."

    This is what you wrote on 10:09 AM:
    "There is a good chance that when the dust clears that Ford will leapfrog a few spots on the totem pole and be a stronger company with a stronger public perception. "
    ............................................................................................................

    Yes, and there is a good chance of that. There is also a chance that the bankruptcy proceedings of GM and Chrysler could have a negative effect on Ford.

    See how that works? I didn't state a fact here - I made a hypothesis, and allowed for other possibiliies.

    However I never said that that bankruptcy proceedings "would not hurt Ford".

    You, however are saying that "it will hurt Ford", and unless you have a crystal ball, I don't think you are in a position to state that as fact.

    Cheers!
  196. joe garcia from Canada writes:
    In clear contrast to Big3's Doom and Gloom, competitive car manufacturers keep expanding and opening up new dealerships accross the world to respond to the client needs.



    http://tinyurl.com/qref2s
  197. joe garcia from Canada writes: 2009 sure looks like a pivotal moment in the history of Car Dealerships, the trend is clear, it's a great moment for a market shake-up where Winners EXPAND and LOSERS fall.

    http://www.spokanejournal.com/article.php?id=4335
  198. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: joe garcia from Canada writes:
    In clear contrast to Big3's Doom and Gloom, competitive car manufacturers keep expanding and opening up new dealerships accross the world to respond to the client needs.

    ==========================================

    So, why was there a story recently about Toyota losing a record amount of money?

    Just wondering...
  199. i coffey from Canada writes: Just A Bystander from Canada writes: i coffey: Can you explain how can our Timmies worker, earning minimum wage, improve his standard of living when he needs to pay more for the same items when they are made in Canada? Because goods cost more while his wage remains the same, he must cut back on other essentials things in life, thus decreasing his own standard of living. I'm sorry but you lost me on that one. Care to re-elaborate?

    I would but my brain just turned to Friday-afternoon-mush! On rereading it it doesn't even make sense to me anymore haha.
  200. Master T from Canada writes:

    joe garcia from Canada writes: 2009 sure looks like a pivotal moment in the history of Car Dealerships, the trend is clear, it's a great moment for a market shake-up where Winners EXPAND and LOSERS fall.
    ..........................................................................

    So what side of the fence does Toyota sit on? They just declared the biggest quarterly loss in their entire history.
  201. SB from Ontario from Canada writes: I believe this will be new beginning and perhaps make the Auto Manufacturers re-think how they should sell their cars in the future. No one these days needs a sales person to sell as car just someone who can prepare the paperwork for Vehicle Purchase/Lease. You can get more information regarding any car in the Internet these days than from any Car Sales person (who by the way is never honest). I bought my last four cars via an online broker and saved thousands without having to haggle or deal with usual nonsense like "Let me go talk to my Manager" crap which every sales person puts you through. Dealerships should be just for showroom purposes and the usual service. Everything else can be done via Online these days. This can save a lot of the overhead and we should be able to buy directly from the Manufacturers. It will be great if the Manufacturers start passing the savings to the consumers.
  202. IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: Great news if you are a Toyota or Honda Lover!!

    Automotive play-offs...Game 7........

    Toyota 10- GM 0

    :)
  203. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: See how that works? I didn't state a fact here - I made a hypothesis, and allowed for other possibiliies

    I stated that Ford will be hurt by bailout.

    Your respond to my post to state that Ford has a "good chance" to come out stronger.

    If you post your statement alone, it's OK.

    But you claimed the opposite to my statement, although allow for other possibilities, make you in a position to have an opposite opinion.

    I stated the sun rise from the east, and you responded that sun has a good chance to rise from the west. You are wrong.
  204. joe garcia from Canada writes: Expansions, expansions and Ribbon cutting ceremonies all over North America...

    Leading car manufacturers clearly rolling in $, and taking the opportunities of the current slowdown to stake their ground, and increase their market share...

    http://tinyurl.com/obfec4

    Bankrupcy for some companies, means opportunity for organizations that benefit from a sound business model.

    Free Market is alive and well, congratulations to every new dealership opening doors in 2008/2009, cheers and enjoy your champagne!
  205. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes:"You, however are saying that "it will hurt Ford", and unless you have a crystal ball, I don't think you are in a position to state that as fact."

    You have dual standard.

    Union posters said canada will go down with D2 and Canada is becoming third world.

    You did not say they are not posting the facts.
  206. Le Penguin Guru from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes:

    So, why was there a story recently about Toyota losing a record amount of money?
    -----------------------------------------------

    Ah, don't worry, once Chrysler and GM disappear, they will return to profitability, by letting u pay through the nose of course.
  207. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Le Penguin Guru from Canada writes:

    Ah, don't worry, once Chrysler and GM disappear, they will return to profitability, by letting u pay through the nose of course.

    ==========================================

    Too many other manufacturers for that to happen.
  208. joe garcia from Canada writes: to Master T:

    For a SOUND Leader such as Toyota, losing a couple of Billions is pocket money, loose change, no big deal...

    If a kid lost his Piggy Bank, it would be devatating to him as it represents his entire life savings, if the kid's father was to lose the exact same ammount, it would mean no big deal.

    Sure, for bankrupt-to-the-core organizations such as GM, losing a couple of Billion makes them shake with panic, but for Toyota to post a Loss for the first time in over 3 generations, its really NO big deal, it's only going to shake off their competitors, and Toyota will quickly rebound Bigger, Better and Stronger.
  209. Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Edwin: You might want to pick another example because the sun does not necessarily rise from the East. If you stand in the North Pole, the only direction you can see is South, regardless of where you look. Thus the sun 'rises and sets' from the South (relatively speaking since the sun does not move in our solar system). Vice versa from the South Pole.

    Food for thought.
  210. joe garcia from Canada writes:
    The new face of Motown (Good news for Arts & Culture):

    http://tinyurl.com/c6n9ar

    Motown should soon be more renowned for Music than for Motors...
  211. Le Penguin Guru from Canada writes: Well, I disagree to some extent. The disappearance of the two biggest sellers in any market has to give the remaining players a lot of room to play with the prices.

    And seeing a whole big chunk of industry go away makes me a bit uneasy. After all first world is called industrialized nations. Not much left of a first world here.
  212. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Edwin: You might want to pick another example because the sun does not necessarily rise from the East

    Thank you.

    I forget that Master T has multiple standards.

    Now, I realized that he may claimed that the sun has a good chance not to rise from the east when you are inside the sun.
  213. joe garcia from Canada writes: Veteran Dealer Drops Cadillac for Toyota http://preview.tinyurl.com/r5v9eq A legend and Expert in Michigan dealer circles, having trained many younger dealers and counseled a number of auto executives, has SEEN THE LIGHT.
  214. joe garcia from Canada writes: http://preview.tinyurl.com/r5v9eq
  215. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Le Penguin Guru from Canada writes: After all first world is called industrialized nations

    Industrialization is just one of the economic criteria to determine developed first world.

    Income per capita and countries with high GDP are 2 of the other criteria.

    Auto industries less than 2% GDP of Canada. Income of D2 for 25,000 workers will not affect our first world status. We have othe industries in Canada.
  216. Kothar Rumbleg from Canada writes: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. It just won't go away, day after day after day. Nothing but the CAW, the UAW, chrysler, GM, the taxpayers the bankruptcies, this that the other thing. Enough already, just go away die already. Honda, Toyota, , Kia, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes etc. this is the future, these are strong brands that will weather this. Chyrsler and GM are done. Historians will look back and wonder why it took so long to just let go.
  217. John Smith from Canada writes: Hey GM , build a better car and all buy one ....
  218. Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Le Penguin Guru, the price is driven by supply and demand (ideally in a free market without government interference). Demand for cars is down, thus the price. I can sell a unique product at $1 with a monopoly of market share. Although it's unlikely for me to do so because my goal is to maximize profit, it doesn't mean that I cannot sell the price low just because I'm the only player around. Also, I would rather refer the first world you speak of as knowledge driven nations. Industrialized nations sounds so last century. Welcome to 2009.
  219. joe garcia from Canada writes: Less dealerships means it will be EASIER to Boycott them...
  220. BD Jorgs from Saskatoon, Canada writes: GM/Chevy had 3times the number of dealers as Honda or Toyota. A good move on GM's part here....but a little too late?
  221. K D from Canada writes:
    As painful as it is, GM needs to do this to make the other dealers stronger. This is all good for GM's survival. They don't have to sell 1500 cars / year per dealer but even 1000 would be better than the 500-600 they sell on average now.

    ALL good. GM must get back to profitability!
  222. Allan Beveridge from Edmonton, Canada writes: I do not normally jump in on discussions, but...

    --------------

    Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Master T from Canada writes: See how that works? I didn't state a fact here - I made a hypothesis, and allowed for other possibiliies

    I stated that Ford will be hurt by bailout.

    Your respond to my post to state that Ford has a "good chance" to come out stronger.

    If you post your statement alone, it's OK.

    But you claimed the opposite to my statement, although allow for other possibilities, make you in a position to have an opposite opinion.
    ------------------

    Edwin, no he did not illustrate an opposite position; alone or in conjunction with your statement it means the same thing... Master T even allowed for the chance that you, Edwin, could be correct. The opposite of "for all" is "not for some", hence the opposite would have been "there is no chance it could be hurt by the bailout"

    Master T is fully aware of this hence the use of a term that contained a "likelihood". Remember, one cannot assign a value of true to something that hasn't happened yet...even if it eventually does happen.
  223. K D from Canada writes: So, why was there a story recently about Toyota losing a record amount of money?

    -------------

    No one except the Koreans are making money these days. Their costs are so low and they dump disposible cars in Canada. I guess it's even hitting Toyota. Our neighbor traded in a Civic for an Elantra... I'm sure she will regret that in 5 years but whatever.
  224. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Allan Beveridge from Edmonton, Canada writes: "Remember, one cannot assign a value of true to something that hasn't happened yet...even if it eventually does happen"

    You have the same dual standard as Master T.

    Union posters said canada will go down with D2 and Canada is becoming third world.

    You did not say they are not posting the facts
  225. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: K D from Canada writes: As painful as it is, GM needs to do this to make the other dealers stronger"

    GM need to close dealers to make other dealers stronger.

    Same logic: Government need to close D1 or D2 to make other D1 stronger.
  226. Le Penguin Guru from Canada writes: Just A Bystander from Canada writes: Also, I would rather refer the first world you speak of as knowledge driven nations. Industrialized nations sounds so last century. Welcome to 2009.

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    None of the first world nations allow their industries to go away like in Canada. Especially Japan, but the europeans too are doing what they can to keep auto companies alive. We must be some kind of bleeding edge experimentators. BTW, the knowledge based industries are not employing too many people. Services are, so get ready for MacDonalds and Walmart careers :D
  227. Allan Beveridge from Edmonton, Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Allan Beveridge from Edmonton, Canada writes: "Remember, one cannot assign a value of true to something that hasn't happened yet...even if it eventually does happen"

    You have the same dual standard as Master T.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Huh? I can speak in terms of likelihood or probility however I am just a mathematician by trade. So, explain to me in terms of standard formal or syllogistic logic what double standard I applied?
  228. Allan Beveridge from Edmonton, Canada writes: Le Penguin Guru from Canada writes: BTW, the knowledge based industries are not employing too many people. Services are, so get ready for MacDonalds and Walmart careers :D

    I knew that service based employment made up a large percentage of total employment, however a comment thread a while back had me check out the numbers...they have been growing for years and they are huge!!!

    You could very well be right.
  229. Golden Locks from Guantanomo Bay: the only civilized prison in Cuba, Cuba writes: O'bamanomics at work. Drive everyone into the ditch in the great race to the bottom. Unemployment, bankruptcy, failure and economic disaster will be the legacy of O'bama.
  230. D Peters from Alberta, Canada writes: Oh great, Obama has been at the helm for what....120 days...and its all his fault...well...between him an Harper...LOL

    Well according to the tinfoil hat and paper beak crowd anyways.

Comments are closed

Thanks for your interest in commenting on this article, however we are no longer accepting submissions. If you would like, you may send a letter to the editor.

Report an abusive comment to our editorial staff

close

Alert us about this comment

Please let us know if this reader’s comment breaks the editor's rules and is obscene, abusive, threatening, unlawful, harassing, defamatory, profane or racially offensive by selecting the appropriate option to describe the problem.

Do not use this to complain about comments that don’t break the rules, for example those comments that you disagree with or contain spelling errors or multiple postings.

Back to top