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GM bankruptcy likely, CAW says

Globe and Mail Update

Ottawa and Ontario order car maker and union to slash hourly wage costs again ...Read the full article

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  1. That Guy from Canada writes: Queue 500 predictable comments in 3 - 2 - 1 ...
  2. M J from Canada writes: Give them $22 an hour and free medical, nothing more
  3. Ken from calgary from Canada writes: Make the union and all employees personally liable for the public debt that they incur. If they want goverment supported loans to pay their wages, they should have sufficent confidence to in the operation to pay back the loans.
  4. T. M. from Edmonton, Canada writes: 'The federal and Ontario governments have ordered....................'

    Government politicians firmly at the helm of the automotive business in Canada.

    No longer any cause for concern..................as long as people actually buy their product.
  5. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: GM's turn:

    GM should welcome on the 'pattern bargaining' that CAW insisted.

    Ask for the same cut given to Chrysler. No need to negotiate.

    You want pattern bargaining, I give it to you.
  6. S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes: Why the heck did taxpayers dollars go into this fiasco again. The latest is that GM has hemmoraged 6 BILLION in this quarter. They can't re-organize fast enough to stop consumer backlash.

    Let them die. This is tantamount to giving CPR to a headless corpse. It doesn't change to eventual outcome....just keeps up the appearance of doing something about it...
  7. mark ruby from Calgary, Canada writes: Why were details of the previous GM deal not made public? That is not aceptible. To chang e it so quickly stinks of missmanagement, deception, and incompetence. Some heads should be rolling all all sides.
  8. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Car demand in the forseeable future, within the next 5 years, will not come back to the same level in 2007. We are using other poorer canadians' money to support richer autoworkers' job, manipulating supplies for a smaller market. Same number of companies fighter for a smaller demand. Let at least one of D3 go and the rest can get more market share.
  9. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: I see the governments are trying their hand at union busting now? GM lost 6 billion, and they're looking to save an extra 0.05 to 0.1 billion by screwing the workers instead of finding REAL savings in inefficient management or processes?

    Sort of like locking the supply cabinet because overall costs are too high. They're looking at using less paperclips while spending thousands on management perks. Bloody idiots, the lot of them.
  10. anonymous in Ont from Canada writes: Ken from calgary from Canada writes: Make the union and all employees personally liable for the public debt that they incur. If they want goverment supported loans to pay their wages, they should have sufficent confidence to in the operation to pay back the loans
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Completely agree but we know that would never happen in a million yrs. It's easier to gamble when it's not your own money at risk.
  11. Dan Shortt from Canada writes: What's to negotiate? Why doesn't Ottawa and Queen's Park just tell GM and the CAW how much autoworkers will be paid?
  12. Tim Cares from Canada writes: Ridiculous. Is Harper or McGuinty an expert on running businesses?
    I cannot believe they are forcing the middle class wage down. I can believe Harper would but not McGuinty.
  13. Did you Know Canada?!? from Canada writes: Average Toyota/Honda workers cost $38 for the company.

    But the Unionized American companies' cost is $76.

    Unions shouldn't just think about the workers, they should also think about the business which is paying them.
  14. Sgt. Pepper from Whoville, Canada writes: Since it's money going to corporate welfare, there's no reason for them to make money off of our taxes.
  15. A Guy from Ontario, Canada writes:

    Auto workers make more money than I do. And I'm okay with that.

    However, when they are forced to make less, the trickle down effect means that I will make less down the road. Why? Because that's how it works. We all go up and down in tandem.

    It's a race up the hill and it's a race to the bottom. Seems like lots of folks want everyone to hit bottom.

    Good luck to you when that happens. You'll be scratching your sorry heads and thinking to yourselves 'geez, that's not what I thought would happen.'

  16. rahim ladha from Canada writes: Excellent, and then when they are done throw in some more billions of dollars of taxpayer money that will never be paid back just like with Chrysler
  17. CallofDuty . from Canada writes: I'm with David T:

    BOYCOTT CHRYSLER BOYCOTT GM
    BOYCOTT CHRYSLER BOYCOTT GM
    BOYCOTT CHRYSLER BOYCOTT GM

    ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!
  18. Brian B from Canada writes: 'Is Harper or McGuinty an expert on running businesses?
    I cannot believe they are forcing the middle class wage down'
    I hardly think that $76 per hour (with benefits) is a middle class wage.
  19. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: A Guy from Ontario, Canada writes:Because that's how it works. We all go up and down in tandem. It's a race up the hill and it's a race to the bottom. Seems like lots of folks want everyone to hit bottom.'

    Good.
    Let the rest of canadians to get a raise from less than $20/hr to $59/hr first.

    Or, we should race up the hill and get the same pay as auto executives.
  20. Ghetto Dude from The Curse of Detroit, Canada writes: Divine comedy.
    This initiates a 2-week talks which will end up with only 50 cents slash per hour. I am sure people will rush to dealers to buy GM cars once this wonderful news is announced.
  21. The Central Screwtinizer from Ottawawa, Canada writes: Funny, never any mention of executive paycuts, reduced severances, options payouts, etc for CEOs, CFOs, COO, MBAs, PHDs, and for the design, ergonomic, mechanical, engineers who mismanged the entire affair... It wasn't the unions that mismanaged the entire mess...was it the union that came up with the unsustainable vision... Did the union get big bonuses, ride cash sucking executive jets to the Masters Golf Tourny and the like jetsetting by the hundreds of executives to Las Vegas car shows... Stop misdiagnosing the desease please. Stop throwing tax payers money at a bad vision.
  22. IBM IBM from Canada writes: Bunch of loser companies being rewarded for failure. Plus people expect these loser companies to replace their gas gusslers with next generation cars...that is like asking the horse and buggy industry to invent the gas engine...IT WILL NOT HAPPEN

    Let the free market live and let these companies die. Right now its a fricken dictatorship as the government nationalizes these companies and plays favoritism as it forks out billions. Don;t let CAW scare tactics mislead you. Boycott these domestic companies.
  23. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Dan Shortt from Canada writes: Why doesn't Ottawa and Queen's Park just tell GM and the CAW how much autoworkers will be paid?

    They did that to every canadian, they told all businesses, and is called minimum wages.
  24. Crusty Curmudgeon from Ottawa, Canada writes: And who is demanding an end to outrageous executive compensation?
  25. Michael Hegan from Regina, writes: The CAW is taking it's lumps....management and up have been outright dismissed ....gone...

    Lots of blame to go around for the failure of the Auto Industry...here in North Americal.. Toyota and Honda build cars in North America...by North Americans...and sell LOTS of cars. Workers and management out hustled workers and management...law of the jungle
  26. Jack Knight from Canada writes: Everyone is sick and tired of the auto challenges and thus the replay of the replay. There are too many vehicle manufacturers/assemblers and face reality as some will not be successful so let the poorly managed etc go by the way side.
  27. Chris Hope from Toronto, Canada writes: Free market principles totally not in effect. As for being a conservative, Harper couldn't be further from one now. The death of democracy will come from the now standard practice of political parties not going far enough when there's a problem, crisis or issue, or watering down their principles to try and preserve votes and in the end not dealing with the problem adequately at all. No government should be bailing out these disasters, just like no government should be wading in to negotiations like this in the first place. Minister Clement for one doesn't have the ability to a) understand the situation, and b) keep the partisanship out of it.
  28. Raymond P from Canada writes: This need to cut CAW compensation is yet more evidence of incompetent management. They asked for a cut, got it, and two months later must ask for more. What it more likely is that GM is jealous that Chrysler got a bigger cut to wages and benefits and wants.

    I for one am sick of hearing nothing but demands for cuts to wages and benefits for average people and nothing for Godlike executives and upper management.

    Are we still going to give taxpayers' money to these dinosaurs? Chrysler got its cut and are still going to file for bankruptcy. Great, how about we invest in DeLorean too.
  29. Rain Couver from Canada writes: Sorry, can't comment, going to the VW dealership.
  30. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Brian B from Canada writes:
    I hardly think that $76 per hour (with benefits) is a middle class wage.
    ---------------------------------------
    You do realize that $76 an hour includes benefits right? And vacation time. And pension costs. And pension costs of every retired living GM worker? And overtime costs. And sick days.

    These people are making in the range of 70K-80K. That seems pretty middle class to me.
  31. counteri intel from Canada writes:
    Did you Know Canada?!? from Canada writes: Average Toyota/Honda workers cost $38 for the company.
    But the Unionized American companies' cost is $76.
    Unions shouldn't just think about the workers, they should also think about the business which is paying them.
    Posted 07/05/09 at 11:07 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    ===============================

    You are way off course. Those numbers are not the truth.

    Either you fabricated them or you are misinformed.
  32. Tom Richards from Canada writes: Please let them go. Get them and the rest of the AUTO pigs at the public trough out of the system.

    Or start giving the rest of us without a pension 20K a year to fill our RSP's.
  33. Dr. Xavier Octagonapus from Hamilton, Canada writes: Well let's see... it doesn't take a University or College degree (or even high school !) to bolt on doors, screw in mirros and radios... so by DEFINITION... YES>>> the you are UNSKILLED LABOUR. Don't compare a Big Three (or Honda/Toyota) assembly line worker with an airline pilot or mechanic please. The VALUE of your job merits pay at no mor than 10-20% over MINIMUM WAGE. Had this been the case, you'd be competitive against the Japanese. Blame your Union leadership for getting you all in this mess, and don't expect the taxpayer to provide you with a (standard of) living that's not warranted.
  34. J Hare from Canada writes: A sickened Canadian, I agree with you. If you unpack that amount per hour it does mean middle class. It just seems so many people have fallen bellow that line that some thing what should be the middle is now the ceiling.

    JH
  35. Bad Bob from Canada writes: GM don't even bother with bankruptcy. Just close your doors and leave. All the money that Canada and Ontario have poured into you will never never be repaid anyway.

    DIE DIE DIE
  36. J Hare from Canada writes: Did you Know Canada?! if you are going to throw numbers around then I want to see where they come from. If you don't provide sources then everyone should assume that you are just making it up...

    JH
  37. Marty York from Canada writes: Garbage product. I currently own a gm after swearing off buying one for years, after having nothing but problems with them. How many families went bankrupt having to repair their gms? Last two dealers I dealt with for service had incompetent staff and ignorant customer service.
  38. Dick Nails from Canada writes: Tim Cares from Canada writes: Ridiculous. Is Harper or McGuinty an expert on running businesses?
    I cannot believe they are forcing the middle class wage down. I can believe Harper would but not McGuinty.

    >> What would Tim do?
  39. slapdash dapoint from harper is not a conservative, Canada writes: the auto industry in ontario sums up nicely what is wrong with being canadian today.

    everything.
  40. james p from Canada writes: Why is Lewenza incredulous? Any fool could see this coming.
  41. IBM IBM from Canada writes: Just to re-vent my frustration that will lead to nothing anyway :( ....

    Bunch of loser companies being rewarded for failure. Plus people expect these loser companies to replace their gas guzzlers with next generation cars...that is like asking the horse and buggy industry to invent the gas engine...IT WILL NOT HAPPEN

    Let the free market live and let these companies die. Right now its a fricken dictatorship as the government nationalizes these companies and plays favoritism as it forks out billions. Don't let CAW scare tactics mislead you. Boycott these domestic companies.
  42. Dwille Pruximus from Hamilton, Canada writes: In the very likely event of Chrysler's and GM's fall there will be less competition therefore we will see the prices of import cars go up substantially. If for nothing else the Big 3 were good for keeping car prices in check. Now we will see how greedy the European and Asian manufacturers will get.
  43. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: 'These people are making in the range of 70K-80K. That seems pretty middle class to me. '

    $150,000 per year, with pension & benefit included. Better than middle class.

    But anyway, these people are taking money from poorer average class, making less than $38,000.
  44. D K from Canada writes: ' M J from Canada writes: Give them $22 an hour and free medical, nothing more '

    While I think the union was overpaid, that really wasn't their fault. Bottom line this is very bad management.

    And why did taxpayers give money to these companies exactly? I am SURE the provincial and Federal finance ministers will be resigning soon.
  45. Dick Nails from Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Brian B from Canada writes:
    I hardly think that $76 per hour (with benefits) is a middle class wage.
    ---------------------------------------
    You do realize that $76 an hour includes benefits right? And vacation time. And pension costs. And pension costs of every retired living GM worker? And overtime costs. And sick days.

    These people are making in the range of 70K-80K. That seems pretty middle class to me.

    >> $70-80K for unskilled? Outrageous. Without the union they would be making a realistic wage, inc bennies, of about $45k. With the union they will be soon making $0.
  46. Smokezz from Southern Ontario from Canada writes: Queue up the endless comments from David T, Edwin Lee and IHATE UNIONS...

    Why are you being censored David T? Because you post the same thing... 40 times every time there is an article about any of the domestic car makers.
  47. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: When all factors that causing GM to fail still existed in the same company, it will fail again:

    1. incompetent management
    2. overpaid executives
    3. overpaid autoworkers
    4. union
  48. IBM IBM from Canada writes: Dwille Pruximus from Hamilton, Canada writes: In the very likely event of Chrysler's and GM's fall there will be less competition therefore we will see the prices of import cars go up substantially. If for nothing else the Big 3 were good for keeping car prices in check. Now we will see how greedy the European and Asian manufacturers will get.

    ----------------------

    People like you love to live in fear and hide in corners. Either that you let CAW's scare tactics get to you...what a bunch of BS....competition will still exist, and the market will be much more healthier without the failed government supported car companies meddling in it.
  49. Smokezz from Southern Ontario from Canada writes: DK: It's both management AND the unions fault. Management drove up wages to hurt the other domestic car companies when things were going good... Unions expected what the others received every time. And now that things are hitting bad times, the unions don't want to give up anything.

    We also have people wishing they lose their jobs, which is pretty pathetic. Try thinking about what would happen if you lost your job.
  50. C Gardner from Canada writes: Rather than throw good, taxpayer's money after bad, to poorly managed American companies, how about no GST on new cars. Eliminate the tarrifs that make new cars about 20 percent more money in Canada than the US. Increase these incentives for highly fuel efficient vehicles. Stimulate the auto industry by makling it easier for average Canadians to buy new cars.
  51. ion vasile from Canada writes: it is something curious here.
    we all die to drive a bmw, mercedes or an audi, porsche, lamborghini, ferrari, ; they are the prestige cars in north america. what is curious is that these companies are 100% unionized and, at least in germany, by law the trade unions have 33% of the board seats.
    why then the unionized workers in germany or italy manufacture such good cars and in north america not ? and the german workers have incredible benefits...
    can anybody answer ? what is different ?
  52. Claudia Adams from Toronto, Canada writes: a sincere question: given that this is all engineered by a bi-partisan coalition of the Conservatives and the Liberals, who should I vote for if I do not support this privatization of public resources? If I would prefer to have my tax money go to our public institutions: the schools our children go to, and to universities where our new generation of skilled labor and value-generating talent will come from, and to hospitals where eventually all of us end up sooner or later. WHAT SHOULD I DO??
  53. J Hare from Saskatoon, Canada writes: C Gardner from Canada, and with what money will people be buying new cars with now that almost all of Canada's manufacturing has been moved overseas and the stockmarket is in the toilet?

    JH
  54. Art Vandelai from Burlington, Canada writes: As long as the North American manufacturers require $4,000 to $6,000 per vehicle in incentives for people to buy cars, any reductions in the $2,000 or so per vehicle that goes to pay for unionized employees, benefits and pensions will be completely immaterial to these companies getting back on their feet.

    As per recent announements from Chrysler, incentives are going up, not down.

    We have to face it...new cars for everyone every 4-5 years, and 3 or more vehicles/family is a thing of the past. The focus of our society needs to be on living, not driving.
  55. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Car sales will not be the same and Gm cannot come back.

    Traditional consumers driving D3 vehicles will generally stick with D3 vehicles on their next purchase. With current bankruptcy threat, some of them will consider other brands.

    Traditional consumers drivings Japanese brand vehicles will generally stick with Japanese brand. It will take more than 5 years for D3 to take these customers.

    We will see diminishing demand for D3 vehicles and losing more market share, at least within the next 5 years. When D3 lost market share in the best time of vehicles sales, they will lose more in the forseeable future.
  56. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Did You Know Canada?!? - the number of $38/hr is the wage & vacation pay only; the benefits must be added, so the all-in cost =~$48.50; this is per hour paid; to compare to the $76/hr, the all-in cost of $48.50 must be factored by the actual run time ie 48.50 x 2080 / 1800 = $56/hr worked; interesting how the CAW & Chrysler got $19/hr without affecting wages or pensions, and only saved $240 million per year; numbers don't add up.
  57. winston blowhard from Oshawa, Canada writes: The auto and all manufacturing industries were not subsidized in any way untill this latest economic downturn. Most of our industries are subsidized by the resources that they use. For example, the tar sands are subsidized by the oil in the ground, forest companies by the trees they cut. Most people are angry that the auto industries are recieving some financial help now, don't they realize that it is a good business decision to prop up these industries now during these bad times. These manufacturing industries generate wealth and don't use any natural resources to do it. The auto companies are in trouble because of legacy costs like pensions. Fact is the deal is done, someone will have to pay them as the worker has fulfilled his or her part of the deal. The government told the auto companies that they didn't have to 100% fund their pensions, so I feel they are responsible if the corporations can'r cover the pensions. The government can use some of the royalties from oil, lumber minerals etc. to cover the cost. It's about time autoworkers had a share of this countries resources.
  58. D K from Canada writes: ' Smokezz from Southern Ontario from Canada writes:

    We also have people wishing they lose their jobs, which is pretty pathetic. Try thinking about what would happen if you lost your job.'

    I would find another job because my skills are in demand
  59. Buddy Rich from Toronto, Canada writes: Where's the pulse?
  60. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Smokezz from Southern Ontario from Canada writes: We also have people wishing they lose their jobs, which is pretty pathetic. Try thinking about what would happen if you lost your job.

    We also have autoworkers wishing to take money from poorer canadians, which is very pathetic.

    Try thinking about what would happen if you are one of those canadians making less than $20/hr, asked to subsidize richer autoworkers.
  61. IBM IBM from Canada writes: winston blowhard from Oshawa, talk about entitled to entitlements...this is exactly what is wrong with CAW. A sob story. Go and retrain or retire...EI and CPP is there for all Canadians, what else do you want.
  62. Joe Had a lunch pail once from Here, Canada writes: Edwin, cubicle rats like you posting endless dribble day after day on company time are next. You might have to give up your company computer and internet.

    You are pathetic
  63. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Now that Flaherty has confirmed that there is little possibility of getting our taxpayers subsidy bailout money back, I am getting more and more conerned that, even though I am being paid very little income on my investments after being extremely prudent for decades, I am now faced with AGAIN being punished because of the Government's incompetence in allowing GM to borrow the pension fund money and lose it. The pension fiasco is so bad that only the bankruptcy court can fix this tragedy.
  64. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: ion vasile from Canada writes: 'why then the unionized workers in germany or italy manufacture such good cars and in north america not ? and the german workers have incredible benefits...'

    Sense of entitlement is different.

    Unions in germany & italy work with management for the success of the company so that they can have the decent wages.

    Unions in NA fight with the management for the decent wages they think they entitled, and get the same entitlement even when company failed.
  65. ryan danielczak from Canada writes: Although I agree that CAW employees are grossly overpaid for what they do, it is the management of the D3 who are responsible, not the union. Unions will always seek the maximum level of compensation through the collective bargaining process because that is what they do. As long as the auto bubble was still inflating, the management was more than willing to concede these ridiculous wages. Unions represent the interest of workers, management represents the interest of business. The two interests are inextricably linked, but management could have bargained a little more shrewdly - but now they want the union to suffer for it, and they will: if they push too hard to keep their outlandish wages they'll end up with nothing. GM ought to be left to wither, and that might bring the industry back into line with reality for both workers and managers. Everybody wants more; can you blame them for a lack of foresight or ethics? By the way, 80k = middle class?!?! Maybe if it's a 2 income household! G&M posters must be a wealthy bunch. . .
  66. Bill Darling from Canada writes: A Guy From Ontario - you must have bought into the sales pitch coming from the CAW; if you look at the number of people working for the D3, parts and material suppliers, dealers, service, etc, they represent ~2% of all working Canadians; if you take the wages of this group, they are ~2.7% of all wages paid in Canada; a recent report on the effect of bankruptcy for both GM & Chrysler in Canada put the impact on GDP @ -2.9%, or about the same as forecasted for 2009 without any failures; back 30 yrs ago, the argument may have made sense, not today.
  67. asm oak bay from Canada writes: Edwin Lee: you may be right. But, if Canadians and Americans make the decision to buy D3 and by doing so contribute to the weatlh and prosperity of our two countries and to that of the D3 instead of funding the wealth and prosperity of Korea, Japan and Europe and their auto industries, it will be a different story. We can have a very profitable and sustainable domestic auto industry with Ford, Chrysler and GM all doing well if they have a certain volume of sales to rely upon. With that volume, the spin off effects for our own communities are enormous. Collectively, it is our choice.
  68. Gerry Taylor from London, Canada writes: Overpaid unskilled labour have killed the car companies. When will these unions realize that they can't expect one line worker to get an overall yearly compensation package in the $120,000 range to add a mirror to a car as it rolls by on the line. That can't be sustained forever.
  69. Ken from calgary from Canada writes: J Hare from Canada writes: Ken from Calgary and anonymous in Ont from Canada, you want to know why that will never happen? Because its a bloody stupid idea cooked up by some inbred incompetent idiot from some hillbilly backwater town.....

    I did not know the 'Personal Accountiblity' would stir such anger and name calling in some people. When I borrow money, I will 'honor' my obligations. I will also not borrow money if I can not pay it back. What is the difference here? Do you think that union and managment would continue to pay themselves with public money that they know they can not pay back? That would be theft.....in my mind

    Perhap J Hare could supply a constructive comments....

    As for myself, I am happy to be in a place that rewards calculated entreprenuerism and punishes poor decision makers. I love the ability to be self-enpowered and not be dependent on other to create my life.
  70. Give me a break from Kelowna, Canada writes: Beating up on the Unions again so typical.
    The unions do not make corporate decisions, GM does
    The unions did not design the cars, GM does
    The unions don't sell the cars, GM does
    The unions don't don't owe billions to the taxpayers, GM does
    The unions have nothing to do with corporate missmanegment, GM does
    The unions have nothing to do with the fact the cars are crap, GM does
    But according to the government and GM the unions caused all their troubles
    Sick and very scary for the workers of this country.
  71. R Dodger from Mudville, Canada writes: (GM) Gawdawful Motors is going belly up - the biggest surprise is it took so long...they been making sheit forever.
  72. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Hallelujah!

    People and their governments are finally starting to wake up.

    It's the worker's fault and they are being rightfully attacked.

    What a great society we live in.

    Wagoner, Nardelli and Lasorda walk off with millions. Thank goodness. Those grubby low-life workers might want to get their hands on some of that.

    Enron, Nortel, GM and Chrysler execs did nothing wrong. Honest.

    Their workers brought them down.
  73. Comments closed, censored, hidden, deleted, disappeared from Obamatieff's village, Canada writes: 'Likely'? --- It's been a done thing for everyone to see for a long time... except for the Globe and Ontario, I suppose.
  74. Dwille Pruximus from Hamilton, Canada writes: IBM IBM do you actually dispute one of the basic tenets of free market capitalism: less competition = higher prices?

    If so, please put forward a strong argument why you think that with GM and Chrysler gone competitors' car prices will remain the same?
  75. IBM IBM from Canada writes: Give me a break from Kelowna, I agree, its not just the useless unions, its keeping these useless companies alive with BILLIONS of Taxpayer's money and then not paying it back.....!
  76. Doug - from Canada writes: To bad these discussions are never very rational but I guess that would be too much to ask for. For one thing people get very confused on the difference between employee cost and salary. True the CAW has some very good benifits which drive this up but everybody even without a pension has some overhead burden . For example EI and CPP, the employee AND the employer pay. Any sort of dental /health plan is worth $5000 per employee . So before you compare the before tax pay of the average person to a auto worker take into the benifits that average workers gets.

    And really I wouldn't want to work on the line. How mind numbing would that be. Those people went after those jobs because they were well paid. Those are choices that people make. If you choose to get a BA and work as a clerk in some gov't office or in retail you just from a money perspective didn't make very good choices.

    Now they are not owed a good wage. No way. They had their run and they with management destroyed the companies. Wages should be based on the value they produce and a company losing money doesn't really produce much of value.
  77. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: asm oak bay from Canada writes: Edwin Lee: you may be right. But, if Canadians and Americans make the decision to buy D3 and by doing so contribute to the weatlh and prosperity of our two countries and to that of the D3 instead of funding the wealth and prosperity of Korea, Japan and Europe and their auto industries

    Are you Canadians or US citizen?
    buying D3 vehicles = support Canada?

    buying D3 vehicles = support US, not canada.

    We can ban imports but you think other countries will not ban exports from Canada?
    Why just vehicles, not TV, not clothes, etc?
  78. Bad Bob from Canada writes: C Gardner from Canada - It does not matter if the government give special incentive of any kind to start to get people to buy GM products. People know what crap they are and do not want to go anywhere close to them. WHO WANTS TO BUY GARBAGE?????
  79. KANUK SHMUK from Wet Coast, Canada writes: Let G.M. go into bankruptcy. I don't give a damn. I stopped buying Big 3
    junk 20 years ago.
    Let the Market decide. No tax dollars for G.M. Canada or Any Car Maker.
  80. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'Try thinking about what would happen if you are one of those canadians making less than $20/hr, asked to subsidize richer autoworkers.'

    ***

    Of course you conveniently ignore the billions and billions of dollars autoworkers have contributed to the nations coffers.

    Cute.
  81. Brian Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: 'But according to the government and GM the unions caused all their troubles
    Sick and very scary for the workers of this country.'

    Unions in this country have been given the power to hold companies hostage. That's why you are being blamed just look at the teachers union in Ontario... The unions have more power than the people paying them... really here's the bottom line

    If you don't like your job or don't like what you are getting paid, QUIT. Instead you hold the business hostage by striking because they can't fire you. It's that simple.
  82. scared monkey from Hogs Hollow, Ontario, Canada writes: If auto industry wages are slashed, are there any other Canadian income earners that can afford to purchase mouth watering, infected livestock tenderloin ?
  83. anonymous in Ont from Canada writes: J Hare from Canada writes: Ken from calgary from Canada writes: Make the union and all employees personally liable for the public debt that they incur. If they want goverment supported loans to pay their wages, they should have sufficent confidence to in the operation to pay back the loans Ken from Calgary and anonymous in Ont from Canada, you want to know why that will never happen? Because its a bloody stupid idea cooked up by some inbred incompetent idiot from some hillbilly backwater town..... ---------------------------------------- LOL hit a nerve did we...the only incompetent inbred idiot is a company who has been so mismanaged & the unions that DEMAND tax $ bail out. Not hard to figure out that 1) this is a bad investment for taxpayers as no one else was willing to invest 2) if it wasn't for tax $ both GM & Chrsler would have been in bankruptcy long ago & even now the unions still want to bicker about wages/benefit cuts. Your audacity & arrogance is as apalling as your 'sense of entitlement'!
  84. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: 'Of course you conveniently ignore the billions and billions of dollars autoworkers have contributed to the nations coffers'

    You forgot billions of dollars poorer canadians, always outnumbered the autoworkers, have contributed more the this country.
  85. sd c from oshawa, Canada writes: Hi I'm Joe Public and don't care if Gm sinks or swims, as long as my neighbor takes a pay cut because he make more money than me.
  86. Bob F from Canada writes: I think this is absoulutely hilarious. GM Failed because GM Failed. Union, Management, Government are all at fault. Each groups seperate interests coupled with greed and stupidity lead to this. Nothing more. Above all the tax payer is going to foot the bill. Brutal!
  87. IBM IBM from Canada writes: Dwille Pruximus from Hamilton, Canada writes: IBM IBM do you actually dispute one of the basic tenets of free market capitalism: less competition = higher prices?

    If so, please put forward a strong argument why you think that with GM and Chrysler gone competitors' car prices will remain the same?
    -----------------
    Do you really believe there will be no competition with the remaining car companies, how many would there be remaining?..do you really think they would get together and form a oligopoly and jack up the price of their vehicles? What would they do to make room for next year's models, keep last year's cars on the lot jacked up on price? Come on....
  88. Lord Gurr from Canada writes: Thank you Brian Lee for stating exactly why people dislike unions....

    Normal people that have a beef with pay or work conditions either suck it up or quit to find new work....

    Union workers cry and moan, strike and ultimately hold the society in which they exist hostage because they really in their heart of hearts don't want to quit, they just want more and don't have the balloons to walk.....wanna biotch and moan union buddies...do so after you quit your job and try pounding the pavement for a while....I'm sure you'd soon find that your horrible autojob wasn't so horrible...

    I'm happy this downturn is forcing that thinking into your skulls....

    Be happy...if not quit.....so is the way of the world....
  89. Trev C from Orleans, Canada writes:
    Smokezz from Southern Ontario from Canada writes:

    We also have people wishing they lose their jobs, which is pretty pathetic. Try thinking about what would happen if you lost your job.'

    ==============================

    But there is a better chance of getting another job that is stable if the market is able to determine what is viable.

    Getting pulled through this by the government for who knows how long just destroys what there is save.
  90. anonymous in Ont from Canada writes: sd c from oshawa, Canada writes: Hi I'm Joe Public and don't care if Gm sinks or swims, as long as my neighbor takes a pay cut because he make more money than me.
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Hi Joe Public, I'm Jane public & I don't care how much GM pays their workers as long as it's not coming from my pockets.
  91. Scotty from Oakville from Canada writes: Does nobody here realise that the original bailout money was NEVER intended to save GM or Chrysler - its only purpose was to stave off the inevitable failure so that it would happen in some kind of controlled and orderly fashion rather than have a total meltdown, which is what would have happened without the cash injections. We, the taxpayers, were never supporting the autoworkers or the industry with a view to helping it through troubled times - we were doing a limited amount of fire control to prevent what could, in the case of an abrupt collapse, have had huge repercussions across not only the auto industry but the whole economic picture. We poured a limited amount of water on to the blaze to save adjoining structures, knowing full well that the building itself was going to be destroyed.

    All that's happening now is posturing on all fronts, because Ken, the auto industry management and both the feds and provincial government are and always have been well aware of the inevitability of the demise of GM and Chrysler in this country.
  92. Bill Darling from Canada writes: A Sicken Canadian - you're right, the $76/hr includes all those things, and you're right, the average 'take-home' pay is $70 - 80,000 per year; this is just wages, O/T, etc; including the cost of your benefits & pension brings the $34/hr wage up to ~$56.80/hr or ~$118,000 per year; and you don't pay a nickel for the benefits or pension; this is well above the average of $43,680 enjoyed by most Canadians, who then pay for their benefits & pension
  93. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'You forgot billions of dollars poorer canadians, always outnumbered the autoworkers, have contributed more the this country.'

    ***

    There you have it. What you keep saying over and over and over Edwin is that you just want everyone to be poor.

    You must have inspired Karl Marx.

    Single handedly yet.
  94. Joe Had a lunch pail once from Here, Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: You forgot billions of dollars poorer canadians, always outnumbered the autoworkers, have contributed more the this country.

    The village idiot has a opinion.

    Take it away Edwin
  95. Another Option canada from Canada writes: It will take more that the union cutting their rate to fix it.. Once the possiblity was Chapt 11 myth floated out there 1 month ago no one wanted a GM product. Go figure..
  96. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: winston blowhard from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'These manufacturing industries generate wealth and don't use any natural resources to do it. The auto companies are in trouble because of legacy costs like pensions. Fact is the deal is done, someone will have to pay them as the worker has fulfilled his or her part of the deal. The government told the auto companies that they didn't have to 100% fund their pensions, so I feel they are responsible if the corporations can'r cover the pensions. The government can use some of the royalties from oil, lumber minerals etc. to cover the cost. It's about time autoworkers had a share of this countries resources.'

    ===========================================

    You of course realize that the reason Ontario has been a manufacturing centre for 100 years is that Niagra Falls provided cheap, reliable electricity about 1900, right? That's why there are - or were, I suppose - so many old industrial plants in the Niagara peninsula. And the Great Lakes provided the capability of cheap transportation for trade back and forth between the industrial belt & huge population centres of the US midwest. What exactly are Niagara Falls and the Great Lakes if not a natural resource?

    And ... the ONTARIO gov't - the NDP one, under Bob Rae - committed ONTARIO to backstopping the pension mess.
  97. IBM IBM from Canada writes: Scotty from Oakville , I agree, they are attempting a controlled, but nationalizing them at the same time...that is nuts. Also, who says a quick and dirty economic melt down would not have down some good to get rid of the deadwood that just hangs on and drags everything along with it. Its like slowly removing a sliver over days and days. Its painful, risky and if infection takes over, it could potentially kill the patient. Pull it out right away, sure its acutely painful, but the pain goes away and the healing process resumes.
  98. Doug - from Canada writes: 'It's about time autoworkers had a share of this countries resources. '

    Why? And gov't money has been spent money for years on the auto industry. Helping plants be set up , paying for part of plant up grades, tax holidays, part paying for super IE benifits, paying for tech etc. It made sense because other gov't were doing it but don't forget that it happened. The tax payers of Canada and Ont were very generous and that is why Ont has a big share of the auto pie. And of course auto use resources, does the steel come from farms!! iron ore , coal, elec, oil and gas are all inputs.

    The auto workers have always had a share of the resource econ., How many D3 pickups trucks are used in the oil patch? You've been getting oil company money for years. Just don't ask for other Canadain workers to pay your pension.
  99. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Another Option canada from Canada writes:

    'It will take more that the union cutting their rate to fix it'

    ***

    Contrary to popular myth, it makes no difference what the union does. It means nothing.

    It's just easy to scapegoat the workers while the real thieves slink away unscathed.

    And people buy into it!

    Gawd!
  100. dagne mrth from Canada writes: Unskilled labor getting paid more than professional engineers, anyone surprised the system is going bankrupt?
  101. Lord Gurr from Canada writes: 'ion vasile from Canada writes: why then the unionized workers in germany or italy manufacture such good cars and in north america not ? and the german workers have incredible benefits...
    can anybody answer ? what is different ?'

    Easy...it's a cultural thing....For one, autoworkers there are not high school drop outs....they are actually trades people (not necessarily in the NA sense but still have credentials). They are actually smart enough to know to not bite the hand that feeds and actually understand that in not biting doesn't mean roll over and take a boot in the butt....They have a sense of duty and pride in the work they do and do not purposely sabotage the line because they want an extra 30 min smoke break.....they respect the company they work for and do not see it as the 'evil man' but rather their partner in doing their job.

    Unions in Europe hold a lot of power and they do use it, but they are also respected because they are not the uneducated whiners we have over here hence their strong positions on the boards of companies etc. Can you see high school drop out Kenny boy at a board meeting? He'd need a dictionary and an onsite translator to make sense of what was going on......
  102. Squib Nocket from Oakville, Canada writes: As an Ontario tax payer I would be less concerned about the sunk costs than about the potential that McG will opt for some form of compromise on the issue of the PBGF and GM Canada's $6B pension fund liability. If GM files for bankruptcy, the issue of GM's pension liabilities will be the next crisis. A lot of retired autoworkers will be in for a very unpleasant adjustment when they realize that not only are post retirement benefits gone, but the pension itself will undergo a major adjustment downward. CAW leadership (and I use the term leadership loosely) should be put in jail for leading the membership down the garden path over the past 2 decades. This issue should have been dealt with as a priority in collective bargaining cycles rather than continuing to ask for wage and benefit enrichment.

    I haven't seen much of Bob White or Buzz lately and my guess is they will be keeping a very low profile.
  103. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: $150,000 per year, with pension & benefit included. Better than middle class.
    ----------------------------

    Have you ever made a useful post ever on these forums? or do you just spout the same mindless drivel over and over and over.

    If you're going to add all those costs to their salary then you have to do the same for every single worker in any industry when deciding who is 'middle class'. I work in an office - and earn in that same range. Add my benefits, pension, vacation time, sick days and see what number you get... Probably puts me well over $100,000 also. I still consider myself middle class - by no means am I living some kind of upper class lifestyle.

    Don't have a pension or benefits? Maybe you should ask why that is as oppossed to condemning those that do. There was a time where every gainfully employed person was entitled to those things but somewhere along the line we've started a race to the bottom. People like you seem to think this is a fantastic idea and for the life of me I can't understand why that is.
  104. Montgomery C. Burns from Springfield, Canada writes: Even the GM flag is in tatters!

    LOL
  105. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Bill Darling from Canada writes: including the cost of your benefits &
    -----------------------------------------------

    Why do you assume I'm an auto worker? I am not.
  106. macdaddy 1959 from How bad is it...no, really..., Canada writes: I knew the auto makers were financially integrated but they now appear to be more deeply linked. These bailouts and Cash for Clunkers (schemes in the US and Europe) better work because Too Big to Fail has now become Too Enormous for Bankruptcy...
  107. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Winston Blowhard - no subsidies for the auto industry ever; look up how many times the Ontario government offered $$millions to get a new model slated for an Ontario plant; you might be surprised; as for the impact of the current downturn on the auto companies, they couldn't hide their dire straits any longer; GM has lost money for how many quarters now?? Ford??; as for legacy costs, one question - is the company you work for paying for your future pension now; they must be because they can calculate the deficit in the pension plan; did GM, Ford, & Chrysler just start paying out pensions recently??; no, they have offered pensions for >30 yrs, and have put money aside for current retirees starting 30yrs ago; the legacy cost is the difference between the pension payout rate 30 yrs ago and today, or about $6/hr of the $76/hr number often quoted; the balance is for you, today and when you retire.
  108. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: This is abject brinksmanship by the two govt's. Eight days to 'redo' an entire contract - Ludicrous !! Lewenza said after the Chrysler negotiated new contract the the CAW would be obviously going to GM 'AND' Ford to cut a deal the same or relatively so as Chrysler's to keep all D3 Canada operations at the same level with no 'advantage' one over the other due to labour-legacy costs. There is NO need to rush it like this - pure stupidity. Lewenza said the CAW would do it and they will. They and GM and Ford need the time to cross the 't's' and dot the 'i's' with enough breathing room to do so. This demand is outrageous and the blatant disregard of an honest statement to the effect of the above information that was 'public knowledge' as it had been spoken to the media after the Chrylser deal 'smells' of a purposelful pre-arranged 'deal' that would have both the CAW and GM in particular scrambling to get a deal done, when a deal was openly stated to be basically a 'no-brainer' and all that had to be worked out were the details regarding the 'details' as Chrysler is privately owned and GM is not. I'm a Liberal through and through, and would NEVER vote conservative(or NDP) either fed. or prov., but this puppy stinks to the high heavens of back-room bully tactics. The 2 govt's MUST give the CAW-GM time to get it together-period. To threaten them with liquidation is really OVER THE TOP and should be considered meddling, never mind they have put foreward funds to aid GM. IF they 'cause' liquidation, it will be 'blood on the hands' of McGuinty and Harper for the demise of at least 55,000 retirees with GM Canada along with production jobs and the spin-offs already determined to be scaled back, but still be in Canada according to GM stateside. McGuinty-Harper - GIVE YOURSELVES A SHAKE !! THIS IS UTTERLY IDIOTIC !!
  109. Lord Gurr from Canada writes: 'A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: .. Probably puts me well over $100,000 also. I still consider myself middle class - by no means am I living some kind of upper class lifestyle'

    I'm pretty sure Edwins argument is not what is middle class....it's whether an unskilled auto line worker earning $100k a) deserves to make that b) deserves to live anywhere near an upper class lifestyle.

    Sorry...your thinking smacks of the sense of entitlement that non-union fellows loathe.....
  110. steve ferguson from Canada writes: Is it strange how Mcnutty has gone silent in the middle of the downturn? He never mentions all of previous provincial aid to the auto sector that he championedavior-remember how this was going to guarantee GM jobs?

    Why are we putting the good auto comapnies at a competitive disadvantage by subsidizing the bad? This is a joke, no a nightmare. All of this hard earned taxpayer money going down the drain.

    Next up-the public sector and how they too get away with murder becasue they also get a new deal every two or three years and like Air Canada and the auto sector weak management doesn't want to deal with realityuntil bankruptcy looms large. Who else gets gilt edged benefits and defined benefit plans in the real economy?

    Did you read this Mcnutty and Miller lite?
  111. David Bakody from Dartmouth, Canada writes: Toyota and Honda sales are down as much or more than GM ...... so lets bash all auto workers who are just one sector of the economy to which high economist ( who said they knew nothing) are now saying all will be over soon. Yup real fart smellers making millions along with our MPs who make over $700/hr .....( do not forget to add there indexed pension (net worth $1.4M) after 6 yrs or elected twice which ever comes first) do the math yourself. Hello?
  112. Dr Strangelove from Tokelau writes: ion vasile from Canada writes: it is something curious here.
    we all die to drive a bmw, mercedes or an audi, porsche, lamborghini, ferrari, ; they are the prestige cars in north america. what is curious is that these companies are 100% unionized and, at least in germany, by law the trade unions have 33% of the board seats.
    why then the unionized workers in germany or italy manufacture such good cars and in north america not ? and the german workers have incredible benefits...
    can anybody answer ? what is different ?
    ---
    Good point.

    I suspect it's not so much the workers who make the difference but the engineers. In Germany, for example, the car manufacturers are the most coveted employers for engineering grads. In the USA, I suspect the bloated armament sector pays better salaries - kind of a tax-funded brain drain on any kind of consumer goods industry.
  113. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: macdaddy 1959 from How bad is it...no, really..., Canada writes: I knew the auto makers were financially integrated but they now appear to be more deeply linked. These bailouts and Cash for Clunkers (schemes in the US and Europe) better work because Too Big to Fail has now become Too Enormous for Bankruptcy...

    ===========================================

    GM has gone from 'too big to fail', to 'too big to save'.

    And that's just a cold, hard fact.
  114. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Lord Gurr from Canada writes: Sorry...your thinking smacks of the sense of entitlement that non-union fellows loathe.....
    ---------------------------
    Just to re-iterate - I am non-union. But I'm not going to apologize for thinking that we're all better off when the working class earn reasonable wages so that they can buy houses, cars, put their children through university, pay taxes, build communities etc. A strong middle class is how our economy thrives - people seem to have lost sight of this.
  115. Geriatric Gardener from Canada writes: So who died and left Lewenza in charge of announcing GMs financial picture? Does he think he's running the company? If so, Lewenza - put your salary on the table and take a cut back otherwise shut up and mind your own business.
  116. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Give me a break from Kelowna - I agree, the unions are not the only problem here; bad habits by all for years; however, for the D3 to be competitive again, they must bring their costs in line with the competition; one of these costs is labour; the est gap per Chrysler was $19/hr today; if the recent negotiations reduce TODAY's cost by that amount, then the field has been levelled; now, to attack the public perception on quality, after sales service, maintenance, mileage, etc.; the work has only begun
  117. Titus Cheeks from London, Canada writes: Pattern bargaining on the way up.....and pattern bargaining on the way down. Kenny, do you have the phone number for Ford?
  118. iPhone from Canada writes: .
    :-- asm oak bay

    The problem with D3 is the twits they have in management. American vehicles come in the following flavours:

    1: Fast and furious
    2: Sofa on wheels
    3: Card-board box on wheels
    4: Military rover

    The management AND design people are twits. The MBAs must be fired and real hands on people need to run these companies.

    Your comment about buying North American makes sense. I am carefully thinking about Ford although I very much favour Saab or BMW. I would think that North American advertizing needs to kick with prompting better North American products.

    I certainly do not trust the existing management.

    I would like to see a Canadian owned Volvo or Saab.
    ~
  119. Canadian First from Hazelton, Canada writes: I saw an auto worker buying a coffee cup at Walmart. He could have bought it at the dollar store a lot cheaper. Who do I report this to?
  120. Jonathon Roberts from Calgary, writes: Why doesn't someone have the guts to lay out for all the world to see, exactly what the union contracts with GM & Chrysler give to the autoworkers then let the Canadian public decide whether WE want to support them financially with OUR hard earned money.
  121. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes:

    'A strong middle class is how our economy thrives - people seem to have lost sight of this.'

    ***

    Those posters only want two classes A Sickened Canadian.

    Thieves and peasants.

    Repulsive.
  122. Louis Elias from Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Lord Gurr from Canada writes: Sorry...your thinking smacks of the sense of entitlement that non-union fellows loathe.....
    ---------------------------
    Just to re-iterate - I am non-union. But I'm not going to apologize for thinking that we're all better off when the working class earn reasonable wages so that they can buy houses, cars, put their children through university, pay taxes, build communities etc. A strong middle class is how our economy thrives - people seem to have lost sight of this.
    ------------------------------
    Sorry but 100k to do a job that a well trained monkey can perform is NOT REASONABLE....so please stop, you sound silly.
  123. RS IslandReader from Canada writes: “The federal and Ontario governments have ordered the Canadian Auto Workers and General Motors of Canada Ltd. [GM-N] to slash hourly labour costs by May 15”.

    How can our government order to slash anybody’s wages if they vote themselves larger salaries for pathetic performance? If they were treated as any corporation for performance, they would be down the tube long before GM and Chrysler.

    It is these governing people whose policies that create an inflation rate of at least 10% a year in my view, and then misguiding people with core inflation.

    Which brings me to the points of; not interfering with businesses they could not run and stop throwing taxpayers hard earned money at mismanaged companies.
  124. John Johnson from Canada writes: Canadian First from Hazelton, Canada writes: Re: 'I saw an auto worker buying a coffee cup at Walmart. He could have bought it at the dollar store a lot cheaper. Who do I report this to? '

    That would be Edwin Lee. He has a monopoly on all the posts re: autoworkers and Walmart!

    LMFAO
  125. s c from Canada writes: I would like to be able to tell the government to stay out of it. But without taxpayer money, these companies would be gone. The government should just put forward its requirement for taxpayer money. If the company and union agree, deal done. If the company and union don't agree, company done.
  126. Dwille Pruximus from Hamilton, Canada writes: IBM IBM, it doesn't matter what you or I think personally. I was just stating the obvious: less competition = less choice = higher prices.

    And yes, I believe that with GM and Chrysler in tatters Honda, Toyota, VW and all the rest will sell cars to people that used to buy domestic.

    That means that these companies' marginal cost of producing these extra cars for which they don't have manufacturing capacities will increase that they will pass along to customers. This is in the short and medium run. On the long run, prices will come down - given that competition will re-emerge.

    And yes, I believe that Lexus, Acura, Infinity couldn't have come alive as brands had it not been competing with Cadillac, Lincoln etc.

    The Big 3 was needed as a perfectly good balance to the small, ugly, unfun, piece of sh.t rustbox Japanese cars of the 80s and 90s.
  127. terry mcdonald from whitby, Canada writes: Lord Gurr- I see you are afraid to post your real name but you have no problem attacking the working men and women who work in these plants.

    You talk about education or the the lack of it by some of the folks working in the plants as well as the union leader Ken lewenza.Well if one was to investigate how we got in this mess they would have to look no further than the people who run big business and the banks.Now I am sure these people are all well educated and new full well what they were doing when all these crooked transactions were taking place.So,I guess because you are well educated,it doesn't necessarily mean you will make sound decisions.

    Get off the education soap box and start looking at what is really wrong with the auto sector.You might be surprised very little has anything to do with wages and benefit's.
  128. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Louis Elias from Canada writes: Sorry but 100k to do a job that a well trained monkey can perform is NOT REASONABLE....so please stop, you sound silly.
    -------------------------------------------
    You're actually the one who sounds silly since you keep adding the non wage costs to the wage and then calling it a wage. But whatever.
  129. Mike from Canmore from Canada writes: This looks like the Wal-Martization of the auto industry and is perhaps the appropriate response in this economic climate.
  130. sd c from oshawa, Canada writes: Hi I'm Joe Public , I hope my neighbor has to take a pay cut cause I've worked for the same company for years and never get a raise.
  131. macdaddy 1959 from How bad is it...no, really..., Canada writes: Notice the GM Executive Compensation Packages in the years that workers were giving concessions.
    http://www.companypay.com/executive/compensation/general-motors-corp.asp?yr=2008
  132. FLUVIAL SEDIMENT from Canada writes: Are they also going to slash executive pay and bonuses and trim the ranks of the greedy, incompetent SOBs who have been pretending to run the place?
  133. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Stop blaming the GM workers. The blame should be first and foremost on the Government for allowing the company to borrow the pension fund money and lose it. This is the elephant in the closet. The company owes the pension fund over 7 billion and if the plants close because they are not profitable, then the pensions being paid to the existing pensioners will be 'Realized' -to use the Company's word, which means that there will be no money to continue to pay the pensioners.

    Then blame the company for mismanagement.
  134. Joe V from Canada writes: Hasn't Harper already spent enough of our money for us to bail out dinosaurs? When do the Canadian taxpayers get a say? The really discouraging thing is that there is no alternative come the next election. Canada no longer has a fiscally-conservative party. If Ignatieff and his clowns get in, the bail-out money will flow even more freely. Is it really too much to ask for to get a fiscally-conservative, socially-liberal government that fulfills its promises?
  135. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Louis Elias from Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Lord Gurr from Canada writes: Sorry but 100k to do a job that a well trained monkey can perform is NOT REASONABLE....so please stop, you sound silly.
    ----------------------

    Have you ever considered that different types of people have different types of skills? I'm in IT and I worked in an aluminum factory for two summers. The unionized wage put me through college actually. Truth be told - I was lousy at the job. I was too small for it and didn't have the coordination for driving forklifts, operating cranes, using machinery or tools etc. I was academically 'smarter' then those men I worked with but many of them were some of the hardest working people I've ever met and they were good with their hands in a way that I will never be. On top of that it was terribly disgustingly hot, physically exhusting and DANGEROUS work. In my mind that's worth something and I have the utmost respect for those people who do the world's real 'work'. It's nice to know you think they could be replaced by monkeys.
  136. E F from london, Canada writes: Most of you guys seem to be oblivious to the fact that if any of the big 3 companies go under, it will lead to a cascade of other companies going out of business(parts suppliers, contractors etc.) No one seems to realize that for every auto worker, there are several jobs directly linked. Also, do you think its just the american motor manufactures asking for money?
  137. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    FLUVIAL SEDIMENT from Canada writes:

    'Are they also going to slash executive pay and bonuses and trim the ranks of the greedy, incompetent SOBs who have been pretending to run the place?'

    ***

    In the mind of Edwin Lee...never!

    It's too easy to scapegoat the shop floor workers.

    And give a pass to the thieves.
  138. Terry S from Canada writes: I didn't hear of any executives taking a cut in pay, aren't their salaries and perks adding to the companys downfall. Why is it only the front line workers are expected to take cuts??

    When will they be competitive? probably when the front line workers pay is in line with third world countries like Mexico. But I bet the executives will still be at the front of the trough milking the company dry.

    Say goodbye to the middle class in Canada, well I guess at least we'll be competitive with Mexico then......
  139. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Kantankerous from Tronna - and the rest of Canadian workers paid nothing to the government coffers???; take 100% of your wages x 28,000 D3 workers = $1.98 billion per year; there are 13.9 million working Canadians, so just to match your 100% contribution, each would have to pay $141.85 each; I would be very surprised if the majority of Canadians paid only that in taxes; your importance to the Canadian government as a source of revenue is way over stated
  140. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: 'Don't have a pension or benefits? Maybe you should ask why that is as oppossed to condemning those that do. There was a time where every gainfully employed person was entitled to those things but somewhere along the line we've started a race to the bottom. People like you seem to think this is a fantastic idea and for the life of me I can't understand why that is'

    Auto executives are saying similar words:
    Don't have a private jet? Maybe you should ask why that is as oppossed to condemning those that do. There was a time where every gainfully employed person was entitled to those things but somewhere along the line we've started a race to the bottom. People like you seem to think this is a fantastic idea and for the life of me I can't understand why that is.

    Let's race to the top as auto executives.
  141. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>“This is an unbelievable situation,” says Mr. Lewenza

    What?

    GM about to file Chapter 11 or the fact we allow people like Lewenza to be in charge of something?

    I find the latter more unbelievable.
  142. charles ANTHONY from Canada writes: Most high priced professionals are just as useless! They are entrenched in the gold plated security program intiated 40 years ago by the biggest and largest pro puke ever. Pierre Elliot Trudeau. Our academic and professional class are a collective that 's prime motive is to milk the average non gold plated taxpayer. The majority. What a farce we live in! How much of this loose freshly printed Canadian currency is going to big law and accounting firms? Most of it!
  143. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes:'you keep adding the non wage costs to the wage and then calling it a wage. But whatever'

    Legacy costs for retirees pension & benefits are wage cost, earned during the employment of retirees, but paid after retirement. It's still counted as autoworkers earned.

    $76/hr (before concession) are actual wages of autoworkers.
  144. Mr Malcontent from Canada writes: Louis Elias

    I bet a trained snail could do what you do . What do you do for a living , besides feeling sorry for yourself while crawling to the bank to cash your welfare chegue ?
  145. asm oak bay from Canada writes: Edwin Lee: I am a Canadian who supports an integrated USA/Canadian D3. The industry has been integrated for a very long time and many Canadian communities have in the past prospered because of this integration. They can do so again if we support the D3. Our countries are intertwined economically, and it is a relationship of mutual benefit. Always has been. The mutual benefit far exceeds that offered by trade with any other country. As for protectionism I am not in favour of that. But, since you raised the matter you might want to look at shortsighed treaties negotiated by our governments that allow parasitic auto companies like Kia and Hyundai import hundreds of thousands of cars into Canada and USA while our D3 are allowed to export but a few thousand vehicles to Korea. Japan is just as bad. Our governments do nothing to ensure a level playing field. You might also want to look at employment standards and environmental legislation that our D3 have to comply with as compared to much laxer (and therefore cheaper) legislation elsewhere. You may want to drive your Korean car on that race to the bottom, I do not. iPhone: I too like Volvo and Saab. What is not to like? But 'you dance with the one that brung ya', and our two countries were not built by the Swedish auto industry. By the way, Saabs are notoriously unreliable and out of warranty service costs for both are exponentially higher than anything build by the D3. Not to mention a far more limited dealer network.
  146. s c from Canada writes: Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Stop blaming the GM workers. The blame should be first and foremost on the Government for allowing the company to borrow the pension fund money and lose it.

    ----------------------------------

    Yvonne - the company didn't borrow any money from the pension fund - it's not permitted. I do agree that the workers aren't to blame - the company and the union are both to blame. The government allowed lower pension contributions starting in the early 1990s to help prevent GM from going bankrupt back then (it is questionable whether the government should have allowed this or just let them go under back then).

    When times got better, the union and the company decided to ignore the large shortfalls in the pension plan and negotiated increased pension benefits that made the shortfall even bigger. The company and the union should have frozen the benefit levels while the shortfall existed and instead negotiated increased contributions. A bad move by the company and the union.
  147. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Canada writes:
    Auto executives are saying similar words:
    --------------------------------

    Why do you make such nonsensical posts over and over and over? There are valid opinions on both side of this issue but you just spout completely unrelated garbage again and again. I've decided to ignore all further posts from you from here on in because they demean all of us.
  148. Claudia Adams from Toronto, Canada writes: I am sorry you ALL, I have to say I am disappointed. You all just seem to be interested in bickering back and forth your existing positions (which is fine) but seem utterly unwilling to confront my (THE) QUESTION you all should be asking and that I am asking myself a LOT these days. so maybe someone wants to actually think about what party, leadership, group should lead us in the future once we, teh poeple, has a chance again to decide. So here is the question again for you and I'd really like to hear your options for the future rather than these endless debates whether auto workers make too much or CEOs are to blame (both clearly true). The questions is, what will you do next given that this is all engineered by a bi-partisan coalition of the Conservatives and the Liberals, who should I vote for if I do not support this privatization of public resources? If I would prefer to have my tax money go to our public institutions: the schools our children go to, and to universities where our new generation of skilled labor and value-generating talent will come from, and to hospitals where eventually all of us end up sooner or later. WHAT SHOULD I DO?? go ahead and keep bickering but all of you will have to confront this question. Looking forward to hearing from you all who should lead us all next?

  149. david tarbuck from Ukraine writes: GM broken up and sold piecemeal would be the best thing for the auto industry as a whole; there is simply too much over capacity for a market that will likely be only 60% (or less) of what it was at the peak, and at the peak GM did not make a profit!

    And CAW/UAW (and French and German workers) Wake up and smell the coffee! When the market produced 'producer surplus,' you were legitimate in demanding a fair share for the workers who produced above subsistance, but when the market no longer allows that surplus you have no legitimate right to a surplus to be provided by taxpayers, the majority of whom receive less than do you!

    This also appllies to Air Canada!
  150. Terry H. from Durham, Canada writes: The latest is that GM has hemmoraged 6 BILLION in this quarter. They can't re-organize fast enough to stop consumer backlash.
    **********************
    Actually, with the market down 50%, most automakers are suffering -- even Toyota and Honda are losing money, especially in North America. I wish comments were more objective and dealt with all the facts.

    Each shift at an assembly plant is probably worth about a billion dollars in taxes for the various levels of government by the time that you take in income tax, GST on material, etc. A strong domestic auto industry strengthens our dollar too in creating a favorable balance of trade, thus increasing every Canadian's buying power.

    So all Canadians should be concerned when our industry is in trouble. With the Oshawa Truck plant closing this month, that's three shifts and 4000 jobs gone which ripple out through the community and suppliers.

    We need to do everything that we can to protect the automotive and other major industries in Canada.

    There is enough blame for everyone here. Let's just do what's necessary to fix it for everyone.
  151. Claudia Adams from Toronto, Canada writes: come on Edwin Lee, clearly you do not like what our politicians are up to. Tell me who should be leading us going forward? Who would do better?
  152. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Terry S from Canada writes:Say goodbye to the middle class in Canada, well I guess at least we'll be competitive with Mexico then'

    CAW Autoworkers in Canada not representing middle class

    If your logic is true, firing all auto executives will mean say goodbye to the upper class in Canada.
  153. DON BARTA from Canada writes: -

    - I thought the CAW & GM already had a deal. Now the Feds and Ottawa want more concessions! When does this race to the bottom stop? Chrysler's situation is different from GM and it isn't fair to demand more cuts. For what it's worth, Tony and Daulton can heed Ken's suggestion and kiss my azz.......

    ~
  154. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Legacy costs for retirees pension & benefits are wage cost, earned during the employment of retirees, but paid after retirement. It's still counted as autoworkers earned.

    $76/hr (before concession) are actual wages of autoworkers.
    --------------------
    I'm breaking my rule once.

    Your point is taken.. but you keep ingoring what I'm saying and that is that for a fair comparison you have to do the same thing for every other worker.

    Let's say I make $30 per hour. I can look at that and say 'OMG the auto worker makes $76 per hour and I only make $30 per hour'

    But that is a junk comparison unless I also take my wage and add benefits, pension costs, vacation time, overtime, sick days and EVERY other cost of labour included in that $76 figure.

    I keep saying this and you keep ignoring this. Either you don't understand or you are deliberately ignoring the facts.
  155. Terry S from Canada writes: Doesn't everyone see what is happening here, first concessions to be competitive with the United States and Europe. Next it will be concessions to be competitive with Mexico ( how much do workers there make $2.00 an hour??).

    This will be the begining of the end for the middle class in Canad. Can everyone not see this??

    Right now it's the auto workers who's next?? Just wait and see...
  156. Glynn W from Canada writes: So it has come to unions announcing the demise of their employers...I suppose that has always been the case.
  157. Dwille Pruximus from Hamilton, Canada writes: Claudia Adams I couldn't agree with you more. I am in the same dilemma. Liberals, Conservatives, NDP, the Bloc, they are all the same. Since changing the party system will never happen, the next best option is to do what some West-European countries do: when public money is about to spent by the truckload there has to be a referendum. Bailing out private companies with taxpayers' money will never happen in Switzerland, the Benelux and Denmark without voters' consent.
  158. The Martian from Calgary, Canada writes: These guys have a fool-proof product, have made more money than God and have run the company into the ground?

    They don't deserve tax payer money.
  159. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: 'they demean all of us.'

    Again, typical thinking of autoworkers: taking themselves too important and thinking they represent everybody.
  160. D Peters from Alberta, Canada writes: That GM flag in the picture with the story is looking mighy tattered.

    I guess the taxpayer pockets are bottomless, lets bail everyone out, to heck with it. If you need money just fill out the paperwork and we will be happy to send you money. We will just print more of it. We can run those presses 24/7 if we have to be are going to bail everyone out.

    Come one everybody, lets get our butts in gear and save these corporate welfare bums. Its our Canadian duty.
  161. Terry H. from Durham, Canada writes: Terry S from Canada writes: I didn't hear of any executives taking a cut in pay, aren't their salaries and perks adding to the companys downfall. Why is it only the front line workers are expected to take cuts??
    ********************
    I dunno -- why haven't you heard?

    Salaried workers have been taking pay freezes and benefit cuts for years and have already started paying for benefits long before the CAW took cuts. GM managers are taking a 10% pay cut.

    Most executives work on bonuses rather than salary. If you look at their total compensation versus their peers, they are paid way less -- arguably deservedly so, but way less nevertheless.

    Everyone is feeling the pain. The union's arguments when the auto industry was making money was that union workers deserved their fair share. Now that the auto industry is losing money, they say 'Not our fault!!!!' Shouldn't the same rationale work in both good and bad times?
  162. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: s c from Canada writes: Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Stop blaming the GM workers. The blame should be first and foremost on the Government for allowing the company to borrow the pension fund money and lose it.
    ----------------------------------
    Yvonne - the company didn't borrow any money from the pension fund - it's not permitted. I do agree that the workers aren't to blame - the company and the union are both to blame. The government allowed lower pension contributions starting in the early 1990s to help prevent GM from going bankrupt back then (it is questionable whether the government should have allowed this or just let them go under back then).
    ================================================

    Well, the story I am being told seems to change, but as far as I now know, the workers did not actually contribute to their pension plan and the money which should have been put aside IN A TRUST ACCOUNT (in my opinion) was either not put aside or short-changed and THROUGH MISMANAGEMENT, no monies are available for present pensions UNLESS the plants are open and the workers are employed and working. In any event, over the last few weeks I was told in the press that the pension fund is owed about 7 billion. This happens with all the companies, e.g. Air Canada, Nortel, etc. and the companies used to have 5 years to make up any default: over the last few months Harper has increased that to 10 years.
  163. Chris Halford from Ottawa, Canada writes: Duh.
  164. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: asm oak bay from Canada writes: Japan is just as bad. Our governments do nothing to ensure a level playing field.

    Canada charged 6% tariffs to import cars
    Japan charged 0% to import cars

    Level playing field?

    D3 cannot sell in Japan because the technology and quality of cars sold in Japan are much higher than D3 can produce, not becaude of tariffs.
    There is simply no demand of D3 vehicles in Japan.
  165. Canada 1 from Montreal, Canada writes: Dwille Pruximus from Hamilton, Canada writes: the next best option is to do what some West-European countries do: when public money is about to spent by the truckload there has to be a referendum

    Kidding.......................right?

    Please do name one European country which had a referendum
    in the past year, after spending TRILLIONS $$$$$$ in
    bailing out banks, insurance companies and the auto sector.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  166. King Byng from Canada writes: Doh
  167. A. Nonymous from Job Ville, United States writes: NO CUTBACKS!

    NO CONCESSIONS!

    Cutbacks and concessions are for UNSKILLED unions, like pilots, and aircraft mechanics, let them take cutbacks and offer concessions.

    The HIGHEST SKILLED LABOR in the WORLD DEMANDS the HIGHEST WAGES, PERIOD!
  168. Andre Poirier from Canada writes: Maybe Lewenza and Co would like to ditch GM, as they are such a bad employer and find a decent manufacturer willing to pay them a fair wage for non-thinking work.
  169. Hillbilly Bob from now living in the city!, Canada writes: -

    And we lent GM money...why?

    As I recall it was a sizable sum - and it is virtually gone already.
  170. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Terry H. from Durham, Canada writes:The union's arguments when the auto industry was making money was that union workers deserved their fair share. Now that the auto industry is losing money, they say 'Not our fault!!!!' Shouldn't the same rationale work in both good and bad times? '

    That's the difference in 'sense of entitlement'

    Unions in Japan & Europe are more reasonable.
  171. Tax Me To Death from Regina, Canada writes: Let me see..why are they in trouble?

    - They build poorly built gas guzzlers that don't last without constant maintenance by overpaid unionized workers who care for nothing more than their next raise and less work in getting it.

    (how's that for a run-on)

    The world is changing, folks. There is no 'BIG THREE' anymore. Recession or no recession - I will NEVER buy GM or Chrysler anymore.

    We give billions to a stupid industry, yet we have people homeless in Canada.

    Go figure.

    STOP wasting my TAX money on a DEAD HORSE!

    Time to let them go.......
  172. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'Again, typical thinking of autoworkers: taking themselves too important and thinking they represent everybody.'

    ***

    Given the choice, I'd rather be represented by an autoworkers thinking than Edwin Lee's first-in-line at the soup kitchen thinking.

    Diseased.
  173. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Yvonne Wackernagel - the company did not 'borrow' the money from the pension funds; rather it was a deliberate decision, by both the company and the CAW to underfund the pension plan ( check the latest GM contract signed in May 2008 - wording to the effect ' GM will fully support the company pension....... as a sign of GM's commitment to the pension fund, GM will increase the money for the pension fund by the amount GM pays to the PBGF = $5 million ); tradeoff between today's wages and tomorrow's pension; GM's current payout for their retirees in Canada = $154 million per month; as late as last Aug, Buzz Hargrove made the statement that the pensions were safe so no need to discuss further; everyone knew the situation so all are complicit; everyone was betting on a better tomorrow; instead, it got much worse
  174. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Terry S from Canada writes: 'Right now it's the auto workers who's next?? Just wait and see... '

    No, right now it's the poorer average canadians getting the cut to their help.

    Money taken by autoworkers. Who's next? Still other canadians.
  175. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Again, typical thinking of autoworkers: taking themselves too important and thinking they represent everybody.
    ------------------------------------
    Which part of 'I am not an autoworker' don't you understand?
  176. Is there anybody out there from Saltspring Island, Canada writes: double uh,oh.
  177. okanagan pakman from Canada writes: Hold on now....I'm sure Steve and Jim have 3 or 4 billion taxpayers dollars kicking around that they would gladly donate for 1 or 2% of this bankrupt company also...life under the tax-and-spend CRAPers
  178. N. Ontarian from Canada writes: Great headliner news item, courtesy of the ever-growing genius of big union boneheads.
    'GM Bankruptcy Likely', the big union boss man puts out there on the front pages.
    That oughta' bring the sales in, eh? That oughta' save some jobs, eh?
  179. Anton Berger from Kelowna, Canada writes: That Guy from Canada writes: Queue 500 predictable comments in 3 - 2 - 1 ...

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    nope, only about 150 or so... mind you the day isn't half over yet! ;-)
  180. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: Given the choice, I'd rather be represented by an autoworkers thinking '

    Your type of thinking are always in minority. People in rest of Canada always outnumbers autoworkers.
  181. King Byng from Canada writes: Terry H. from Durham, Canada writes: The latest is that GM has hemmoraged 6 BILLION in this quarter. They can't re-organize fast enough to stop consumer backlash.
    ********************
    Actually, with the market down 50%, most automakers are suffering -- even Toyota and Honda are losing money, especially in North America. I wish comments were more objective and dealt with all the facts.

    Each shift at an assembly plant is probably worth about a billion dollars in taxes ....

    =====

    I'd like see the math on that one....
  182. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'Unions in Japan & Europe are more reasonable.'

    ***

    Yes, and they get paid more and have more benefits.

    You also conveniently ignore the fact that their companies have been bailed out too.

    But you would not care would you?
  183. Rockin Johnny from Calgary, Canada writes: I am presently in the market for a new vehicle. My Mercedes C class is now almost six years old. Yesterday I wandered around a few car lots including Ford, Chrysler and GM. I am looking for a comparable vehicle to which I have now. The prices are completely out of whack. Why would I, or anyone, pay over 40K for one of the D3 when for a couple of K more I can purchase another Mercedes. When they lower their prices perhaps I will look at them again. And that folks, is why these guys will never get out of the hole.
  184. Terry H. from Durham, Canada writes: mark ruby from Calgary, Canada writes: Why were details of the previous GM deal not made public? That is not aceptible.
    ****************
    I think that they were available and publicized but not widely enough. I don't think anyone was hiding anything.

    Everyone should realize that our opinions are shaped by what we hear or read and to that effect, the media has some degree of control over our opinions, especially since most of the media is controlled by a limited number of companies.

    Given that caveat, the posters that obviously have knowledge of the industry can give us valuable insights that we might not receive via the media. You have wade through tons of hate posts and unsupported allegations, but there are some good comments here.

    We all want to blame one group -- gov't, management, union -- but the truth is a lot more complicated than that.
  185. Bill Darling from Canada writes: E F from London - see my posts to A Guy from Ontario @ 12:04p and to Kan Tankerous from Tronna @ 1:02p; impact is not as big as some would have you believe
  186. Howard Young from Canada writes: The reality is that anyone who makes north of $70,000 in salary or wages doesn't have the right to call themselves middle class, especially when you consider that the average income for an entire Canadian household is materially less than that.
    I've got no beef with people who earn good money; in fact, I earn more than a top earning autoworker. However, I'm humble and appreciative enough to know that I'm above middle class.
    Rather than look at the people who are better off than me: the ones with the big homes, fancy cars, designer clothes and say 'Woe is me'. I look at how many people in society that are less fortunate than myself.
    Despite the hard work I've put in to be where I am in life, I try to remind myself how good I have it rather than be envious of those who have more than I do.
    So to the autoworkers out there, you are not among the little people, so at least be sensitive to the many out there who earn considerably less than you but are being asked to pay for something that you will benefit from.
  187. charlie 57 from Canada writes: This bailout deal is a joke as these loans will 'NEVER' be repaid. The $3.2 billion dollars plus the earlier advance of $850 million is throwing good money after bad. The Chrysler deal alone works out to just over $340,000 for every one of the 9400 employees on the payroll at Chrysler.

    I'm not an accountant but this just doesn't make economic sense as this bailout is politically motivated only, ie: Harper & Mcguinty don't want the collapse of the auto industry to occur on their watch. Whatever happened to our free market economy where companies that couldn't compete went out of business. Taxpayers should be revolting in the streets.
  188. John Doucette from Canada writes: So many stupid people,,,, all gathered together in one place,,,,, is this the House of Commons?
  189. Hillbilly Bob from now living in the city!, Canada writes: Terry S from Canada writes: Doesn't everyone see what is happening here, first concessions to be competitive with the United States and Europe. Next it will be concessions to be competitive with Mexico ( how much do workers there make $2.00 an hour??).

    This will be the begining of the end for the middle class in Canad. Can everyone not see this??

    -----------------------------------------------

    Terry, I totally agree. However - it does not mean that MY tax dollars should go to prop up GM.
  190. D Peters from Alberta, Canada writes: A. Nonymous from Job Ville, :

    LMAO*....goooooooood one....*LOL
  191. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Let's say I make $30 per hour. I can look at that and say 'OMG the auto worker makes $76 per hour and I only make $30 per hour'

    You may take home $30 but company pays extra for you as benefits, pays retirees as pension & benefits. These are counted what you earned during your employment.

    Jim Stanford, CAW economist, said 'Retiree's pension & benefits are effectively compensation after retirement and should not be taken away, because they earned that during their employment.

    If you did not earn the pension & benefit, it can be taken away upon your retirement.
  192. IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: GM is bankrupt? Is anyone surprised? Paying union workers $76 to make the crappest cars in the world no one should be surprised this day has come.

    The CAW could drop their pay to $20/hr. and the outcome will not change. The company is DEAD and no one will buy their garbage cars-EVER!

    RIP Gov't Motors
  193. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Wow...you guys have already forgotten the GM sold 8.6 million vehicles last year compared to Toyota's 8.9 million, only 3 hundred thousand between them! But nobody wants to buy GM right? Also, everyone here is still using the $76/hr number that was recently cut by $19/hr at Chrysler...why is that? Shouldnt we be using the new hourly rate of $57/hr? Now, as far as a monkey being able to do the job of an auto worker...give your heads a shake! For the people who think that an auto workers job may require him/her to only put on a mirror proves to me that you have never stepped foot into an auto factory! That may be 1 step of his/her 12 or so steps to complete in 48 seconds. Dont let the media educate you with their biased opinion!
  194. K D from Canada writes: The prices are completely out of whack. Why would I, or anyone, pay over 40K for one of the D3 when for a couple of K more I can purchase another Mercedes. When they lower their prices perhaps I will look at them again. And that folks, is why these guys will never get out of the hole.

    -----------------

    GM can charge $40K for a CTS because it's one of their best models, it's world class and more than competitive. They sell oodles of them with little incentives, why do they need to give them away to you??
  195. CallofDuty . from Canada writes: At the rate, the unions will run Chrysler, GM and Air Canada into the ground. You can almost see a void growing in Ontario.
  196. Dakota _ from Canada writes: Why doesn't GM just do what the Liberal MP Dhalla did and hire immigrant laborers for $1.50 an hour, make them sleep on the floor, feed them Kraft dinner, and withhold their visa's so they can't quit. It would be a huge cost savings and would be swept under the rug by the Liberals.
  197. Terry S from Canada writes:
    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Terry S from Canada writes:Say goodbye to the middle class in Canada, well I guess at least we'll be competitive with Mexico then'

    CAW Autoworkers in Canada not representing middle class

    If your logic is true, firing all auto executives will mean say goodbye to the upper class in Canada.

    Sorry Edwin I should have said upper middle class to keep you happy, what I am inferring is that this is the start of the end of the middle class in Canada, that's right the start. It will start here. Which industry will be next to ask for concessions from workers??
  198. Brian Da Re from Toronto, Canada writes: 70K for an unskilled worker is simply too much. /End Comments
  199. Mayday Mayday Mayday from Canada writes: A. Nonymous from Job Ville, United States writes: NO CUTBACKS! NO CONCESSIONS! Cutbacks and concessions are for UNSKILLED unions, like pilots, and aircraft mechanics, let them take cutbacks and offer concessions. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey, as I pilot I resemble that remark ;-)
  200. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Claudia Adams from Toronto, Canada writes: come on Edwin Lee, clearly you do not like what our politicians are up to. Tell me who should be leading us going forward? Who would do better?

    Mel Lastman
  201. K D from Canada writes: D3 cannot sell in Japan because the technology and quality of cars sold in Japan are much higher than D3 can produce, not becaude of tariffs.
    There is simply no demand of D3 vehicles in Japan.

    ----------

    The big 3 can't sell in Japan because of non-tariff barriers.
  202. winston blowhard from Oshawa, Canada writes: There seems to be an idea out there that G.M. and Chrysler are in trouble because they are not very good at building cars and trucks. Fact is G.M. plants are ultra modern factories full of robots and automation. You can almost eat off the floor. That is why the cars are so well built. I have a 2004 impala and I havn't done a single thing to it. It is by far the best car I have ever had. The Oshawa plants have been recognized by a third party as being the most efficient and best quality in the world, not just G.M. If you are misfortunate enough to work on the line, you work harder than most people in Canada. Not many people can do these jobs as they are too demanding.
    G.M.'s troubles are that they have too many retirees, as hangover from the pre automation days.
    So there.
  203. robert nicholson from montreal quebec, Canada writes: had gm led the way and made dependable and durable quality vehicles instead of the great looking and great to drive junk that the make they could have [and still can] beat the competition. EXAMPLE -we bought a new 2005 chev diesel pick up truck.it is now 4 years old with 50,000 km well taken care of not beat up and driven on montreal streets with the following history;the diesel fuel injectors failed and were replaced on warranty[all 8 injectors that the dealer said cost $800.each],automatic transmission gear selection indicator circuit board at a cost of $600 off warranty which lasted 2 weeks and was replaced the second time on guarantee and now a hydraulic brake line has corroded and ruptured and the gm dealer advises that all th brake lines are hazardous and should be replaced at my expense for $1300. when are the union and management going to get it right and respect their customers.
  204. Rockin Johnny from Calgary, Canada writes: To KD...If you can find me a CTS for 40K please tell me where it is and I will buy it. The CTS I was looking at was over 60K and did not have as many options as the C class.
  205. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Terry S from Canada writes:Sorry Edwin I should have said upper middle class to keep you happy, what I am inferring is that this is the start of the end of the middle class in Canada, that's right the start. It will start here. Which industry will be next to ask for concessions from workers??

    Autoworkers in D3 only a small part of middle class. You see yourself too important to a country having 34 million.
    Your collapse is not a start of anything, except a start of other poorer canadians have less help.
  206. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes:

    'Shouldnt we be using the new hourly rate of $57/hr?'

    ***

    It doesn't matter Rob Latimer.

    The filthy swine won't be happy until it's $9.25/hour for everyone.

    Gag.
  207. Lord Gurr from Canada writes: 'terry mcdonald from whitby, Canada writes: Lord Gurr- I see you are afraid to post your real name but you have no problem attacking the working men and women who work in these plants.'

    Terry, if by working men and women you mean the autoworkers, I'll let you recant on that simply noting that they work harder at sleeping in the lunch room and euchre tournaments than actually working working....everyone that collects a pay cheque is a working person...whether they EARN that pay cheque is a different matter.

    Either way, once the autoworkers dig ditches or other true manual labour for 10 hrs a day then they can bleat that they also represent true blue collar workers, until then....please don't hide behind the 'working men and women' moniker. Autoworkers don't have a monopoly on being blue collar and I know (as you do) that working is a far cry from what they actually do in a shift.
  208. The Lakeman from Canada writes: Yesterday I began the ordeal of starting to look for a replacement car for the family. After visiting two dealers it really began to sink in just what a bleak position the automotive industry is in. The situation is so bad that I don't see any way for G.M. to avoid bankruptcy. Even after bankruptcy the problem will only be resolved if they can get the price of new cars down. Here these companies are trying to get average Joe people, who are not sure they will have a job, to commit to an expenditure ranging from $25,000 to $45,000 which will take 6 to 8 years to pay for. The situation is really impossible as these cars have risen to highly over-inflated values. Even the used car markets are more expensive as the dealers see the people going for a previously owned vehicle rather than taking out a mortgage for a new model. I think the Big Three are down and are not going to recover and the unions have no choice but to take huge cuts in wages and benefits. Ladies and gentlemen of the car industry the party is over.
  209. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: K D from Canada writes:The big 3 can't sell in Japan because of non-tariff barriers.

    Every countries have non-tarriff barriers.

    Japanese carmakers get through the non-tariff barriers in NA by lowering the quality, adhering to emission control and other regulations, and getting more market share.

    D3 in Japan, - none.
  210. Bill Darling from Canada writes: asm oak bay - have you ever been to SE Asia; they do not have the road infrastructure to handle most cars made by the D3; to them, a Toyota Corolla is a LARGE car; and they don't have the land area to build such an infrastructure - they even built an island for Narita airport in Japan; second, the major impediment for the D3 cars is a tax on engine displacement - bigger the engine, bigger the tax; they have a high population density ( > 1/4 of world's population ), and except for China, have very little area; they tax engine displacement to encourage people to buy smaller vehicles - less polluton, less space; when the D3 can produce a small/compact/subcompact car at a competitive price, they may have a chance to compete
  211. s c from Canada writes: Yvonne - what is reported in papers is very poorly done in most cases as the pension issues are not well understood. As GM has a defined benefit pension rather than a defined contribution pension, GM and the CAW negotiate the pension formula. In the early 1990s, GM couldn't afford to contribute the amount needed to fund the shortfall that existed at that time as we were going through a recession. The government agreed to give GM more time by lowering the minimum contribution requirements to help GM avoid bankruptcy at the time. If they didn't, GM would have been dealing with the issues they now face 15 years ago. When things started to turn around, GM and the union choose to negotiate a larger pension benefit formula ignoring the huge shortfall that existed in its pension plan. This was a big mistake. The company and the union should have left the pension formula alone until the shortfall had been funded. By ignoring the shortfall and increasing benefits further time and time again, they arrived at the current situation where the shortfall is in the billions. If GM were go under now, this shortfall would not be funded and retirees would lose some of their pensions. If GM does not go under, the company and the union get to continue to close their eyes and hope the pension deficit magically goes away on its own (for a little longer). The governments role was only helping GM not go bankrupt 15-20 years ago. The union and the company made all the mistakes over the past 15 years to make matters worse. Funds were not mismanaged but the negotiations were.
  212. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Wow...you guys have already forgotten the GM sold 8.6 million vehicles last year compared to Toyota's 8.9 million, only 3 hundred thousand between them!

    3 hundred thousand between them, but GM make a loss and Toyota make a profit last year.
  213. Terry H. from Durham, Canada writes: Each shift at an assembly plant is probably worth about a billion dollars in taxes ....

    I'd like see the math on that one....

    Let's see, Oshawa built about 300,000 trucks when it was running at full capacity at 3 shifts, so about 100,000 per shift....at say, $30,000 each.....that's about $3 billion worth of production per shift. GST implications alone are staggering!

    Direct wages alone for the 4000 workers....at least $250 million -- income taxes on that ? Figure out a number.

    Income taxes for the non-GM workers that make the parts, transport the vehicles, etc. -- estimates are 7-10 jobs for each assembly worker. Lear, Johnson Controls, etc. all have plants nearby that support the industry. Figure out a number. If a shift is worth $3 billion in production, a lot of those costs are ultimately labour based to make the components.

    The PST/GST for all the spending from the wages both assembly related and from the supporting parts producers....economists estimate 7 to 10 times the effect in the economy by the time it filters down ... so

    Property taxes for those people.....

    They pay into UI etc.....now they may be collecting....

    Easy to get to a billion dollars....
  214. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Let's say I make $30 per hour. I can look at that and say 'OMG the auto worker makes $76 per hour and I only make $30 per hour'

    You may take home $30 but company pays extra for you as benefits, pays retirees as pension & benefits. These are counted what you earned during your employment.
    --------------------------------

    Yes isn't that my point exactly? That I AS A NON AUTO WORKER might make $30 per hour but it cannot be compared fairly to the $76 of an auto worker. The $76 includes many other labour related costs as we've discussed. So to get an accurate comparison you have to add those same costs to my $30 as well and then compare.

    Can you not read?
  215. Terry S from Canada writes: Edwin, Edwin, Edwin... First off I am not an autoworker. Can you believe that?? I am defending the middle class in Canada ( and upper middle class) What I am saying is this will be the start of a trend in Canada. Is that plain enough for you???
  216. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Dakota _ from Canada writes: Why doesn't GM just do what the Liberal MP Dhalla did and hire immigrant laborers for $1.50 an hour, make them sleep on the floor, feed them Kraft dinner, and withhold their visa's so they can't quit. It would be a huge cost savings and would be swept under the rug by the Liberals.

    We have minimum wages

    Immigrant laborers not necessarily accept $1.5 an hour
    Immigrant laborers sleep in bed, like other canadians
    Immigrant laborers not necessarily eat kraft dinner
    MP Dhalla did not do all these.
    t is illegal to holding anyone's visa as hostage
  217. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'Toyota make a profit last year.'

    ***

    Of course, Toyota projected a 150 billion yen loss in the previous 12 months (in March) and idled factories and canceled projects apace if not greater than GM or Chrysler.

    But you wouldn't care would you?
  218. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Hey Eddie Lee...Toyota got a bail out too!! Why'd they need that if they're so profitable?
  219. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Edwin is posting on company time...someone find out where he works! How much work do you do in a day for your employer Eddie?
  220. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: That I AS A NON AUTO WORKER might make $30 per hour but it cannot be compared fairly to the $76 of an auto worker. '

    We are comparing average canadians with D3 autoworkers. Not you with CAW autoworkers.

    Check out Statscan web site. Average canadians making less than $20/hr,no pension, benefits inclusive.

    $20/hr vs $76/hr is a fair comparison/
  221. Louis Elias from Canada writes: DETROIT - General Motors Corp. is recalling about 300 new Chevrolet Camaros because a battery cable could rub against the starter motor, wearing the insulation and potentially causing the car to stop running or fail to start.
    The voluntary recall applies only to Camaros with V-8 engines. The company says in extreme cases the cable problem could cause a fire, but no fires have been reported.
    GM spokesman Dan Flores says the company has made about 1,400 of the V-8 equipped 2010 Camaros and 300 have been sold. The unsold models will be fixed before they are delivered to customers.
    Flores says GM will tow the cars to dealers and offer free loaner vehicles and oil changes.
    ---------------------
    I wonder where GM will get the money for the loaner car and the tow? Maybe they will just add it to the legacy costs that aren't really part of their wages........
  222. Dwille Pruximus from Hamilton, Canada writes: Canada 1 from Montreal, noone said that these countries didn't do it or couldn't do it. The big difference between them and Canada/US is that the referendum can happen at all three levels (federal, province,municipal) for any reason whatsoever. If the Swiss decide that they don't agree with government bailouts, they can legally start a referendum (after a certain number of signatures).

    In Canada you can collect signatures, you can take it to Parliament Hill and leave it there - nobody will read it.
  223. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Terry S from Canada writes: ' I am defending the middle class in Canada'

    Autoworkers in D3 only a small part of middle class. You see autoworkers too important to a country having 34 million.

    Autoworkers collapse is not a start of anything, except a start of other poorer canadians have less help
  224. N. Ontarian from Canada writes: Atta boy Lewenza, you big union genius - that oughta sell some GM cars and keep your 'members' working.
  225. nitro meyi from toronto, Canada writes: Any body want some knives so you can initiate a civil war here? geez...bottom line, GM mismanaged itself to death....that only really means that Japan, Korea and europe are ready to step into their market share...
  226. Doug - from Canada writes: K D from Canada writes:
    The big 3 can't sell in Japan because of non-tariff barriers.

    Why care about seeling in japan? To compete in Japan you have to absorb the shipping cost and the Japannesse car doesn't not.

    The question should be why D3 cannot compete in the Thai market, the middel east market which is totally open, etc
  227. Bill Darling from Canada writes: winston blowhard - what percent of the $42 is for 'legacy' costs???
    ( $76 - 34 [wage] = 42 )
  228. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'Toyota got a bail out too!!'
    'Edwin is posting on company time...someone find '

    First question: Japanese carmakers bailout by Japan. US carmakers bailout by US. Leave Canada alone. Toyota did not ask Canada for bailout.

    2nd Question: None of your business. I did not steal your money. Autoworkers did steal my money that I would rather help 500,000 unemployed canadians.
  229. A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Check out Statscan web site. Average canadians making less than $20/hr,no pension, benefits inclusive.
    -------------------------------
    So you think we'd all be better off if all canadians had their pensions and benefits removed? That would even it out?

    Instead of bashing those that have those things how about advocating for those that do not?

    All gainfully employed people should have benefits and pension - in fact it used to work that way.

    I understand you concern for the people that are disadvantaged but your logic after that seems to go off the rails. I consider it a 'win' when one group of people manage to earn decent wages/benefits - I wish everybody could do so. You on the other hand seem to see it as a loss.
  230. Terry S from Canada writes: Any newer ideas Edwin, or are you a computer program just spitting out unrelated words and sentences. I don't think you are a real person.
  231. The Natrix from Toronto, Canada writes: s c from Canada writes at 07/05/09 at 1:47 PM EDT :

    ***

    Great insight and very true. The rug has been pulled from under and everybody is caught with their pants down.
  232. Richard Merriman from Reunion writes: In the interest of self preservation the auto unions will now unionize Honda, Toyota, Hyundai/Kia, etc. and work their magic all over again. Perhaps they can also join forces with CUPE and then we will all live in Nirvana.
  233. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'First question: Japanese carmakers bailout by Japan. US carmakers bailout by US. Leave Canada alone. Toyota did not ask Canada for bailout.'

    ***

    And I don't believe Ford or GM in Europe asked for a bailout either.

    Your point is idiocy and narrow-minded to the max.
  234. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna & Rob Latimer - unless my calculator battery is dying, shouldn't the new rate be 44 - 19 = $25; that's the number in the report authored by Jim Stanford for 'the wages and benefits of the highest paid production worker' in the D3
  235. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: The auto industry is in crisis around the world, due to an unprecedented collapse in sales. And governments around the world (from Europe to Asia to the Americas) have moved quickly to keep the industry in business.
    Only in North America, however, has this restructuring been sidetracked by an ultimately phony confrontation over auto worker wages. Auto workers are well paid everywhere - after all, that's a key reason governments chase auto investments in the first place. But only in Canada and the United States have governments made auto assistance contingent on union concessions. That's not the case in Germany or Japan (where auto workers make more than they do in Canada), nor in Brazil or Korea (where they make less). Only here has the future of the industry been linked to a frontal attack on unions.
  236. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: Of course, Toyota projected a 150 billion yen loss in the previous 12 months (in March)

    150 billion yen = US$1.7 billion

    GM lost $31 billion in 2008, 17 times more

    As per Rob Latimer from Oshawa, 3 hundred thousand in difference in volume.

    You figure the reason.
  237. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: And I don't believe Ford or GM in Europe asked for a bailout either'

    Whoever they ask, leave Canada alone. Leave my money alone. We need to help poorer canadians first.
  238. David Lorne from White Rock, Canada writes: GM ceased being a Car Maker long ago. It now exists as a Pension and Benefits Pool for former and current employees, about a 80/20 split. This pretty much says it all: for every 20 who show up for work, another 80 are on pension. Not a model for survival, I'd say.
  239. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Kan Tankerous - GM Europe ( Opel, Saab, Vauxhall ) asked for bailouts from the Swedish gov't ( denied ), German and British gov't
    ( no commitment ); probably pending sale to Fiat
  240. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Edwin, the reason is simple...GM counted $38 billion from the money they didnt put into the pension fund as a loss...which it isnt, its just fancy accounting!
  241. Canada 1 from Montreal, Canada writes: Dwille Pruximus from Hamilton, Canada writes: Canada 1 from Montreal, noone said that these countries didn't do it or couldn't do it. The big difference between them and Canada/US is that the referendum can happen at all three levels

    Dwille, are you certain you would want the lunatic fringe that is on 'here' to have a say on taxation, monetary/fiscal policy?

    Most of the characters here are screaming about their tax $$$$$
    yet they are subsidized by the auto workers high wages
    (high taxes) and the government(s) in general.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  242. Chris Halford from Ottawa, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: The auto industry is in crisis around the world, due to an unprecedented collapse in sales. And governments around the world (from Europe to Asia to the Americas) have moved quickly to keep the industry in business.
    Only in North America, however, has this restructuring been sidetracked by an ultimately phony confrontation over auto worker wages. Auto workers are well paid everywhere - after all, that's a key reason governments chase auto investments in the first place. But only in Canada and the United States have governments made auto assistance contingent on union concessions. That's not the case in Germany or Japan (where auto workers make more than they do in Canada), nor in Brazil or Korea (where they make less). Only here has the future of the industry been linked to a frontal attack on unions.

    ** I agree with you. Only GM can burn through billions a quarter - that has nothing to do with the unions, it has everything to do with a non-viable business. After they go into Chapter 11 (hopefully without any more of our money), whatever survives will start off with a new employment contract. It's not necessary or useful to hammer away at the unions, GM signed all those union contracts.
  243. Turning Right from Canada writes: Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Now that Flaherty has confirmed that there is little possibility of getting our taxpayers subsidy bailout money back, I am getting more and more conerned that, even though I am being paid very little income on my investments after being extremely prudent for decades, I am now faced with AGAIN being punished because of the Government's incompetence in allowing GM to borrow the pension fund money and lose it. The pension fiasco is so bad that only the bankruptcy court can fix this tragedy.
    _____________________
    What are you babbling about??
    Pension fund is a provincial matter not a federal matter so you partisan nonsense should be directed at one of your own - Mcguinty!!
  244. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'Whoever they ask, leave Canada alone. Leave my money alone. We need to help poorer canadians first.'

    ***

    And your persistent attack on workers will make the poor richer?

    Give me a break.
  245. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: A Sickened Canadian from Canada writes: All gainfully employed people should have benefits and pension - in fact it used to work that way.
    I consider it a 'win' when one group of people manage to earn decent wages/benefits - I wish everybody could do so. You on the other hand seem to see it as a loss. '

    This is a common wish for everyone to earn decent wages & benefits.

    But autoworkers are asking poorer canadians, without decent wages & benefits, to keep autoworkers decent wages & benefits.

    Same logic: Auto executives wish everyone has private jet. You think this is right for him to ask autoworkers to subsidize him to buy the private jet?
  246. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Economically, wage cuts are irrelevant to the future of Chrysler and any other auto maker. Whether these companies live or die depends on bondholders, on government, and - most importantly - on consumers. Direct labour accounts for 7 per cent of total auto costs: less than capital, less than materials, less than dealer margins. Cutting that to 6 per cent won't sell a single car or truck.
    Indeed, the demand flies completely in the face of Fiat's own successful restructuring. Fiat went from basket case in 2004 to success story by 2007. Was that because of wage cuts? No ... because there weren't any. Rather, Fiat's turnaround reflected successful efforts to develop new products (like its trendy Cinquecento), to rebuild domestic market share, to boost foreign sales through exports and joint ventures and to implement leaner, dynamic management. That's what we need in North America - not wage cuts, which will only undermine auto sales as other employers follow the lead.
  247. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Edwin, when did the auto workers ask for anything? I believe it was the companies they work for that asked!
  248. Joe Had a lunch pail once from Windsore, Canada writes: NO MORE CONCESSIONS

    NO MORE CUTBACKS!!

    Let cubicle rats, white collar, executives and ceos start taking some cutbacks!!!
  249. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: The true economic constraint on wages is that they be validated by productivity, and remain broadly competitive with competing locations. Canadian auto workers meet both tests: productivity (averaging $300,000 value-added per worker per year) is the world's best, far exceeding compensation, and labour costs are below-average among the various suppliers feeding the North American market. So the attack on auto workers isn't about economics. It's about politics. How else to explain the arbitrary hook on which Clement and Co. have hung their hats? They're demanding that CAW costs be cut to match non-union plants in Canada. (By the way, accounting for demographics and capacity utilization, the true difference between union and non-union auto plants in Canada is more like $5 per hour, not $19.) Canadian non-union plants account for just 4 per cent of North American sales. What about the other 96 per cent of the competition? Why not demand that CAW costs be cut to the level of unionized auto workers in Korea, say, or unionized workers in Mexico - both of which pose greater competitive threats than non-union Canadian plants? Because the demand is not about being competitive. It is about challenging the legitimacy and survival of unions. It aims to exploit the wedge, in an anti-union political culture, between workers who've managed to win a little more - and those who have yet to do so.
  250. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: GM counted $38 billion from the money they didnt put into the pension fund as a loss...which it isnt, its just fancy accounting!

    Strange logic.

    Money put into employee's pension fund:

    Autoworkers denied $76/hr pay because they did not receive this pension in their paycheque
    Retirees said they earn that during their employment with GM
    Autoworkers said they did contribute to their own pension, just directly by the company.

    Now, you said it is not a cost to the company.
  251. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Doug from Canada - the D3 cannot compete in the small/compact/subcompact vehicle market; the labour cost per vehicle for a small car is almost the same as the labour for a much larger car ie $1800 - 2000/vehicle; if the average sale price of the small vehicle market is $14,500, then, the average cost of the vehicle coming off the assembly line would need to be <$9,000; at the often repeated '7% of the cost of the vehicle', labour would need to be approx. $630 per vehicle; not even close to the actual; this type of car production will occur outside NA
  252. Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: Bob F from Canada writes: 'Hey I'm Autoworker Jim. I am the most important person in society because my job creates 10 jobs for everyone else.'
    ------------------------
    Hey ... I'm autoworker Bob. I don't earn a high wage because my job creates jobs for others. I earn a high wage because the product I manufacture is is highly coveted by others. I make more money than the guy working in a candle factory, for instance, because his product sells for $2.00 per unit, but my product sells for $20,000 per unit.
  253. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Finance Minister Jim Flaherty tried a similar stunt last November, in his infamous economic update. He tried to capitalize on fears of recession to snatch away the legal right to strike from federal employees (who also enjoy good wages and pensions). It was an opportunistic, mean-spirited act, driven by politics, not economics. It was defeated by the united opposition parties.
    The same government is now trying the same thing with auto workers: capitalizing on economic fear to challenge the fundamental right of unions to exist and to bargain.
  254. David Balsom from Calgary, Canada writes: How do you explain to the average canadian taxpayer who earns less than $20. an hour with little or no benefits why he/she could support our government bailing out an industry who is paying $75. hour in wages and benefits.
    At the end of the day there will only be so many cars built and sold and so the total number of jobs will not change. Maybe its time to let the market consolidate. Just like nature - let the weakest die and the strongest live to work another day.
  255. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Only here has the future of the industry been linked to a frontal attack on unions.

    Automakers in other countries also have unions too.
  256. winston blowhard from Oshawa, Canada writes: Admit it , all you anti G.M. posters, you are jealous of our wages and benefits. we have already given back a lot from our contract and now the government, not G.M. wants more. I thank god that the Liberals have a new leader because looking at the polls it appears that we will have a new government shortly. The Liberals will give us what we need and stop meddling. G.M. says that the existing agreement is good. The problem is in the U.S.
  257. Doug - from Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: The auto industry is in crisis around the world, due to an unprecedented collapse in sales. And governments around the world (from Europe to Asia to the Americas) have moved quickly to keep the industry in business.
    Only in North America, however, has this restructuring been sidetracked by an ultimately phony confrontation over auto worker wages

    True but not true- the D3 have been in trouble for many years and don't have the $$ to live through the downturn. Well maybe not Ford. They were baskets cases in the good times due to the high cost pensions that were just huge bad debts on their books. Lots of companies are losing money , its just the weak ones the are going BK. The real question is why are the D3 so weak. Over benifited unions, poor management ? I don't blame the management on only producing SUVs and trucks. The demand was there and the profit was there. They were losing money on small cars due to cost structure. They tried to shed the part plants but the cost of pensions still stuck to them.
  258. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Thats exactly right Eddie...and they're not being asked to give up any concessions!
  259. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Hey ... I'm autoworker Bob. I don't earn a high wage because my job creates jobs for others. I earn a high wage because the product I manufacture is is highly coveted by others. I make more money than the guy working in a candle factory, for instance, because his product sells for $2.00 per unit, but my product sells for $20,000 per unit.

    ===========================================

    But, unfortunately Dan, that car costs your employer $25,000 to make.

    There's yer problem...
  260. Richard Merriman from Reunion writes: Rob Latimer writes: Direct labour accounts for 7 per cent of total auto costs...
    I have heard that repeated a number of times. Where did you get this cost breakdown from? I have not been able to verify this figure anywhere.
  261. R E from Toronto, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Edwin, when did the auto workers ask for anything? I believe it was the companies they work for that asked!
    _________________________________________________________

    Umm....yeah, so they could pay bills, pay the salaries of workers, keep the lights on, etc. Would you rather they not ask for it and be unemployed now as opposed to next month?
  262. all canadian all american from USA sector of, Canada writes:
    'GM bankruptcy likely, CAW says '

    GM isnt bankrupt, capitalism is.
  263. Peter Capusotto from Winnipeg, Canada writes: I cannot but wonder what is cheaper for the taxpayer: to keep pouring cash into GM and Chrysler or to let them fail and provide EI for, say, two years to all the auto workers affected (which will of course include a bunch of parts manufacturers who will go down hard and fast). I think that if we even provide tax-supported College training for auto workers it would be not more expensive than the current bailout. And at least the money is going to our fellow citizens, not a multinational corporation.
    I hope G&M runs a story about the cost differential between one and the other.
  264. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Richard...
    theglobeandmail.com
  265. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Edwin, when did the auto workers ask for anything? I believe it was the companies they work for that asked!

    ===========================================

    I seem to recall that Chrysler got a wad of taxpayers dollars, just so they could make payroll, before they hit bankruptcy protection in the US, and the plants here closed due to lack of parts.

    You're welcome...
  266. Machinations ? from Canada writes: 'These people are making in the range of 70K-80K. That seems pretty middle class to me. ' For UNSKILLED labour. Give your head a shake, thats not ok. I have to wonder what fields people work in that this is a normal, average salary (as opposed to say 35-45k) Most educated professionals would consider 70-80k for walk in off the street labour pretty damn good.
  267. ion vasile from Canada writes: ok, thank you for interesting answers.
    so the unions must work with the management ? what about the management working with the unions ?
    it is interesting that in germany the absolut majority of the floor workers are not germnas for a long time. they are turks and their education level is low. if you go to ingolstadt -audi town- you will se the larget mosques in germany there.
    so the things become more interesting.

    i think one point of view is that in europe the workors are seen as stakeholders. this is different than shareholders and simple workers.
  268. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: R E, you joined the conversation too late.
  269. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Rob Latimer - the money owing to the pension plan is a debt, and aside from changes in the debt ( payments made to reduce, or payments deferred to increase ), has no effect on the latest quarter's earnings/loss; as far as I'm aware, the pension fund is still running about the same deficit
  270. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Thats exactly right Eddie...and they're not being asked to give up any concessions!

    Then, this is not anti-union. Just anti CAW or anti UAW.
  271. Richard Head from Dildo, NFLD, Canada writes: Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: Hey ... I'm autoworker Bob. I don't earn a high wage because my job creates jobs for others. I earn a high wage because the product I manufacture is highly coveted by others. I make more money than the guy working in a candle factory, for instance, because his product sells for $2.00 per unit, but my product sells for $20,000 per unit. ..........................................................................................................Hello McFly, what part of Margin do you not understand. The selling price is irrelevant. It's margin and volume. In the case of the Pathetic 3 negative margin at any volume is bad especially when governments fork over money that allows them to continue producing units at a loss. As for the Candles, I suspect that they are at least making money. Oh well, from the Big 3 to the Shrinking 3 to the Freeloading 3 to the Pathetic 3 to the Bankrupt 1, the Sinking 1, and the Treading Water 1 via greedy militant unions and greedy incompetent management! The oh so predictable Death Spiral continues!! Who would have thunk it??
  272. Megan Cook from Canada writes: Let them fold and start rebuilding from the ground up. It's the only solution. CAW and employees pushed them into the mess they are in and now they should be paying for it, not me as a taxpayer. NO BAILOUT.
  273. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'Workers who've managed to win a little more, stealing money from those who have yet to do so.'

    ***

    Everyone including Edwin Lee has benefited from those who have one a little more.

    But Edwin, likes to portray the workers as holding the company hostage when in fact they have been giving back for 3 years.

    That doesn't matter in Edwin's perverted world of justice.

    Reward the thieves and crush the rest.

    Edwin's utopia.
  274. R E from Toronto, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: R E, you joined the conversation too late.
    ________________________________________________________

    ??? Am I too late to scroll up and read?
  275. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Sweeney, Chrysler got $250million...wages were only $30million for the month!
  276. Joe Had a lunch pail once from Windsore, Canada writes: Work wanted ad in the near future

    Me educated professional from third world country
    Me come do educated professional job in Canada for half of what current educated professional makes.
    Me work hard 16 hour day when needed to.
    Me never waste company time by posting on internet.
    Me not cubicle rat but happy take their job.

    You 'educated professionals' and wanna bees aren't safe either so you should stfu.
  277. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Edwin, when did the auto workers ask for anything? I believe it was the companies they work for that asked!

    As one poster previously said 'autoworkers entitled to everything but not responsible for anything'
  278. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Sweeney, Chrysler got $250million...wages were only $30million for the month!

    ===========================================

    'ONLY' $30 million? Sorry that the forced contributions of mere taxpayers aren't up to your 'usual standards'.
  279. Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: 'But, unfortunately Dan, that car costs your employer $25,000 to make.

    There's yer problem...
    ------------------
    No problem at all there, guy. In that case I just sell it to you for $40k instead of $20k ....
  280. S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:

    Joe Had a lunch pail once from Windsore, Canada writes: 'NO MORE CONCESSIONS NO MORE CUTBACKS!! Let cubicle rats, white collar, executives and ceos start taking some cutbacks!!! '

    Joe. You've listened to the union rhetoric for so long, you actually believe it. Go down to the emplyment centre in any other area other than Winsor and ask the people who have lost their jobs in the last 8 months what they did. Like the building supply order desk guy, who lost his because building permits and new construction is down....

    People are losing their jobs my friend. Not just auto jobs. You and your mouth breathing line workers are being asked to take a reduction...gee that's pretty hard to take. Down to $45 and hour from $74.....the rest of Canada weeps for you..........or perhaps just for the fact that this great country could produce such ignorance. What makes you believe that people in cubicles, middle managers, and CEOs aren't forced to give concessions? I'll tell you why. Because like good people, we take our lumps and soldier on, not sit there in the media and cry, hoping for public sympathy.

    Move to Oshawa my friend, and get a job building GMs savior vehicle...the Camaro. I'm sure that will work out well for you.
  281. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Hey Eddie...all I do is build the cars as best I can. I get paid what the company and the union negotiate for me.
  282. Richard Merriman from Reunion writes: $30 million in wages for the month for 4000 employees = $7500/mth or about $90,000 for the year. Not bad for a bankrupt company.
  283. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Sweeney, what, no comment on what the other $220,000,000 was for....like the real expenses that are killing these companies during the credit freeze!?
  284. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes:

    No problem at all there, guy. In that case I just sell it to you for $40k instead of $20k ....

    ===========================================

    There's another issue, Dan - you're not selling these cars to me, or - well - pretty much anybody else... Do any of you CAW guys have ANY business sense at all? (Apparently not...)
  285. D Peters from Alberta, Canada writes: I just want to know why the car companies and thier employees think the taxpayer of Canada owes them anything aside from EI? Thats all anyone else gets.
  286. Stephen Green from North Saanich, BC, Canada writes: Governments should just let GM and Chrysler die and instead support Ford Motor Company.

    CAW once again is stupid.
  287. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Sweeney, what, no comment on what the other $220,000,000 was for....like the real expenses that are killing these companies during the credit freeze!?

    ===========================================

    I was responding to the comment that the CAW had never asked for any money. Perhaps not, but they sure TOOK IT.

    Try to keep up, Robbie.
  288. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: To: Joe Had a lunch pail once from Windsore, Canada

    Job application ad in the near future

    Me autoworker from Canada
    Me come do cubicle rat job in Canada for 2 times of what current educated professional makes.
    Me work 8 hour day when needed to.
    Me never waste company time by reading newspaper.
    Me not cubicle rat but happy take their job.
  289. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: I submitted a couple of posts that are yet to show up so if this post is a copy I apoligize. Richard...Chrysler has 10,000 employees in Canada not 4000. Sweeney...GM sold 8.6 million vehicles last year, educate yourself, its not about the product, its about the economy!
  290. Doug - from Canada writes: Joe Had a lunch pail once from Windsore, Canada writes: Work wanted ad in the near future

    Me educated professional from third world country
    Me come do educated professional job in Canada for half of what current educated professional makes.
    Me work hard 16 hour day when needed to.
    Me never waste company time by posting on internet.
    Me not cubicle rat but happy take their job.

    You 'educated professionals' and wanna bees aren't safe either so you should stfu.

    Actaully I have worked abroad and Engineers from west get well paid over there. Pay less taxes and get all sorts of perks. The difference in standard of living between a professional and a worker there is huge. I remember looking out office window and seeing workers in 42C heat on construction site , 12 hours a day , 6 days a week. You really don't want to be worker outside of NA. For me its all good.
  291. can I vote again from around-Kingston, Canada writes: We need motorized vehicles in Canada, that's because the country is so huge and to get anywhere you need motorization.

    The winters aren't so pretty on the vehicles either. However, in my experience the cost of car ownership (either through loan, cash purchase and/or repairs) is about 4,000 per year.
    That's new or used. And that's the minimum (low end)

    Now based on the number of people driving in Canada, and estimating that people replace vehicles every 5-6 years (on average) that works out to ... what... 12 million people paying 48 Billion a year (again the low end)

    Considering the industry is much larger than that, I wonder where all the money is going to each year?

    In company's quest for perpetual ROI, I think someone's been skimming off the top... and has been for years. I believe the 'wage issue' is what you might call a red-herring.
  292. No Name Necessary from Canada writes: taxpayer money down the drain. Why should the govt sink money into a dying private company. If people want to keep their jobs accept pay cuts. A job is better than no job at all. Even with a pay cut there still better paid than most....
  293. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'GM sold 8.6 million vehicles last year'

    Toyota sold 8.9 million vehicles, lost $1.7 billion

    GM sold 8.6 million vehicles but lost $31 billion in 2008, 17 times more

    300 thousand converted to $28.3 billion lost by GM

    Go figure out.
  294. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: No Name...We've accepted the cuts, the point is that these cuts alone are no where near what is needed and basically do nothing to help the D3! This is strictly about breaking the union.
  295. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Rob Latimer - the last time I was in an assembly plant, it required materials, parts, electricity, heat, an assembly line, etc to produce cars, so maybe some of that money went that way; if only $30 million per month, it means that the labour cost as % of total cost = 30/250 = 12%, excluding benefits & pensions; but I'm sure that there were some sales, and some incoming money so probably a few% less; as for the $30 million, this gives an average wage of 30,000,000/9400/8/5/4.3 = $18.55/hr - when did your wage go down???
  296. R E from Toronto, Canada writes: Joe Had a lunch pail once from Windsore, Canada writes:
    You 'educated professionals' and wanna bees aren't safe either so you should stfu.

    _________________________________________________________

    You're right, it's tough out there. I was recently let go but found a better job in short order. Maybe it's because I'm an 'educated professional', as you call me. Hopefully it works out the same for you when you lose your factory job. If not, I highly recommend 'getting educated'.
  297. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Eddie, already explained that one to you.
  298. Doug - from Canada writes: I will have to say its silly to say that auto workers are not skilled. They know how to do that job. If they brought people off the street each day it wouldn't work. Also there are a lot of real trades doing work in a auto plant.

    Should they cost more than workers at a Honda plant who are more productive, no, but unskilled workers they are not.
  299. That Guy from Canada writes:
    Mark Baigre, I think the governments are simply warning what must be done if bail-out (yes bail-out) money is to be forthcoming.
    Based on this article and similar ones about Chrysler, I wouldn't be too high and mighty if I were you.

    http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200905061744DOWJONESDJONLINE001017_FORTUNE5.htm

    If it were up to me, I wouldn't give another dime. Not because I 'hate auto workers', I just don't believe GM or Chrysler have much going for them. Sometimes companies die.
  300. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: Me bend over and take it for $9.25 an hour just like everyone else should.

    Everyone has the same sense of entitlement as autoworkers should.

    Everyone else will get more education and training to equip themselves for higher pay jobs. Not making the same dream of 'I am entitled'.
  301. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes:

    'Sweeney...GM sold 8.6 million vehicles last year, educate yourself, its not about the product, its about the economy!'

    =============================================

    The fact that GM sold 8.6 million vehicles last year - and is STILL hemorrhaging money and headed for bankruptcy protection more than says it all. This is a VERY poorly run business, and has been for decades.
  302. Joe Had a lunch pail once from Here, Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    That was funny Kan im laughing my head off which is hard because im a mouth breathing line worker according to a bend over cubicle rat from Orangeville lol
  303. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Bill, like I've told you before there are many many variables in your equations that you're missing!
  304. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: '.like the real expenses that are killing these companies during the credit freeze!? '

    Same expenses, whatever they are, that killed these companies still exist, and will kill the companies again.

    Bailout is useless.
  305. John Johnson from Canada writes: Kan Tankerous, you hit the nail on the head with Edwin Lee from Toronto, re:

    'Job application ad in the near future'

    I would add the following, based on my numerous observations of E. 'Yoda' Lee's various postings on this issue:

    ***

    Me Edwin Lee.

    Me no no (sic) how mathematics work, especially in calulation of $76/hour amount.

    Me incite much hatred on postings to these websites with my propaganda.

    Me laugh my head off upsetting common-sense Canadians.

    Me enjoy it.
  306. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Canada writes:

    'Everyone has the same sense of entitlement as autoworkers should.'

    ***

    You rail against autoworkers Edwin and yet can hardly string a sentence together.

    What is your education (cough) and how much do you make?

    Curious.
  307. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Sweeney, the fact that GM counted the $38 billion owed to the pension fund as a loss when they havent even put the money in yet shows how smart accounting allows them to show a loss when in reality they havent lost that money.
  308. Joe Had a lunch pail once from Here, Canada writes: RE from Toronto

    You're right, it's tough out there. I was recently let go but found a better job in short order. Maybe it's because I'm an 'educated professional', as you call me. Hopefully it works out the same for you when you lose your factory job. If not, I highly recommend 'getting educated'.

    Fact probably is your an educated professional because your too lazy to put in a good day of physical labour. Id rather stay an uneducated working man, thanks.
  309. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Love to stay and chat but the kiddies are home from school...I'll check up on all the nonsense later!
  310. CallofDuty . from Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'GM sold 8.6 million vehicles last year'
    Toyota sold 8.9 million vehicles, lost $1.7 billion
    GM sold 8.6 million vehicles but lost $31 billion in 2008, 17 times more
    300 thousand converted to $28.3 billion lost by GM
    Go figure out.
    --------------------------------
    Most people think GM did well because of the cars the sold. Sadly, they don't figure in expenses.
  311. Bad Bob from Canada writes: All members of CAW are nothing but bloodsuckers. Time for them to be eliminated.
  312. K D from Canada writes: To KD...If you can find me a CTS for 40K please tell me where it is and I will buy it. The CTS I was looking at was over 60K and did not have as many options as the C class.

    --------------

    ???????

    You were prob. looking at a V-series.
  313. K D from Canada writes: Toyota sold 8.9 million vehicles, lost $1.7 billion

    GM sold 8.6 million vehicles but lost $31 billion in 2008, 17 times more

    -----------------

    Ya.. it's called legacy costs.
  314. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Joe Had a lunch pail once from Here, Canada writes:'Fact probably is your an educated professional because your too lazy to put in a good day of physical labour. Id rather stay an uneducated working man'

    educated professional - use brain power - lazy?

    uneducated working man - use physical power - no lazy?

    That's how you teach your kids?
    Let them quit school to avoid becoming a lazy educated professional.
  315. S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes: First of all. Lets keep the comments above board folks. Personal attacks are not good form. While I may not agree with every poster on here, they have a right to post without having someone jump down their throat personally. Witty, and sarcastic is fine, but keep it smart.

    Okay Rob Latimer. So now you are a line worker, who also holds a CGA? Please enlighten the rest of us as to how GM has manipulated the #s for their pension fund? Last I checked from Accounting 101, is that it has to exist, before it can be shown on the balance sheet.

    Joe Had a lunch pail......just to clear things up.......I'm one of those educated professionals you seem to hold in such disdain. You know, the people who spent a large part of their early adulthood with their nose to the grindstone so we could make a decent living doing your financials, designing your homes, and providing the services that you depend on, and enjoy the priveledge of using.
  316. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: K D from Canada writes: Toyota sold 8.9 million vehicles, lost $1.7 billion

    GM sold 8.6 million vehicles but lost $31 billion in 2008, 17 times more

    -----------------

    Ya.. it's called legacy costs.

    Who negotiated and agreed to the legacy costs?
  317. carole campeau from laval, Canada writes: about time !!!
  318. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Rob Latimer - not sure what I'm missing; $30 million - your number; 9400 worker paid 8 hrs per shift x 5 shifts per week x 52/12 = 4.33
    wks/month; at the base wage of $34/hr, wages paid = $55 million or
    55/250 = 22% of the $250 million in emergency funding; this is excluding any overtime, and the maintenance, lead hands, and other higher paying positions all worked for the same $34/hr; not likely
  319. Bill Darling from Canada writes: K D - maybe you can answer my previous question - what per cent of the $76/hr is the legacy cost???
  320. Knowit All from Calgary, Canada writes: Let 'em BURN!!!
  321. Bill Darling from Canada writes: John Johnson - can you explain the $76/hr number??
  322. Richard Keefer from Omemee, Canada writes: Let's stop bouncing the blame between autoworkers and auto industry management. All these people did was to make cars, which most of us depend on for transportation, while the auto industry provided the lifeblood of employment for a host of communities.

    I think we are being encouraged to blame everything and everyone but government. Our governments poured the gasoline of low interest rates and wilfully blind regulation onto the flames of reckless and greedy lending. But it took the stalling of our economies caused by the oil run-up to expose the worthlessness of all that paper. The competitiveness of Canada's industry has been eroded for years by the fat and grasping hand of government, with sales taxes on cars alone being almost twice the cost contribution of our much-vilified autoworkers.

    It was within the power of our federal government to protect both Canadian consumers and industry from the speculation that allowed oil prices to be rigged so far past what was needed for a healthy sector. The Competition Act and earlier Combines Investigation Act introduced by Mackenzie King in the 1920s were intended to protect Canadians from the freewheeling greed of price-fixing monopolists. A generation ago, the U.S. taxed the windfall profits of oil companies.

    Our federal and provincial governments took no action at all either to enforce the Competition Act or introduce controls on oil prices because their hands were so deep in the pie. Just as we have Stephen Harper as frontman and shill for oil industry to thank for the federal lead in this, the people of Ontario have the spineless McGuinty to thank for his part.

    If we must face the death of an industry built up over generations, and of the livelihoods of tens of thousands of Canadians, I hope that the opportunistic scum who have turned our governments into cesspools of corruption and bribery will feel the curse of the disappointments and suffering they have caused.
  323. S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:

    Joe had a lunchpail..............there's nothing wrong with working for a living. You just seem to have a chip on your shoulder with anyone who decided to go on and do more for themselves. If one of your friends from the line gets a supervisor job, is he then not your friend still?.....

    I works my way up from a labourer, through two apprenticeships, and now management.......so you could say that I know a hard days work........some of mine were 18 hours long. But I must be wrong to want more for myself or my family then? I must be an idiot for wanting a challenge instead of staying in a comfortable rut?
  324. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Toyota is doing so well without the legacy costs they are still losing money.

    Imagine when the legacy cost start to pile up!

    We are losing less money than you at the moment.

    Hooray for us!

    'All is well in the garden.'

    ~Chaunce The Gardener and Edwin Lee
  325. Stan Dupp from Uzbekistan writes:

    S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:

    Joe Had a lunch pail......just to clear things up.......I'm one of those educated professionals you seem to hold in such disdain. You know, the people who spent a large part of their early adulthood with their nose to the grindstone so we could make a decent living doing your financials, designing your homes, and providing the services that you depend on, and enjoy the priveledge of using.

    =========================================

    Well pardon the great unwashed Piercy! Just remember that you didn't pay the full freight on your education. You got a lot of Joe Lunchpails taxes to see you on your patronizing and condescending way

    .
  326. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:'I works my way up from a labourer, through two apprenticeships, and now management.......'

    This is the usual, normal and reasonable attitude of average canadians.
    I don't see autoworkers have this attitude. This is the fault of 'sense of entitlement'.
  327. S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:

    Richard Keefer great insight. Nice to see someone with a comment that isn't a personally biased attack.

    However, history aside. The fact that the domestic automakers really didn't stay abreast of consumer demand, and quality, has greatly contributed to their demise.

    Government protectionism aside, we do live in a global economy. To protect domestic trade goods from foreign competition, would mean either tariffs levied on those goods, or having to procure domestically....driving costs up. Which ultimately would have resulted in public opinion / lobbyists working to scrap these protections.
  328. S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:

    Stan Dupp...

    The same is available for anyone out there who chooses to apply themselves. It wasn't exclusive.
  329. R E from Toronto, Canada writes: Joe Had a lunch pail once from Here, Canada writes: Fact probably is your an educated professional because your too lazy to put in a good day of physical labour. Id rather stay an uneducated working man, thanks. ____________________________________________________ Umm...yeah, that must be it. Or maybe it's because I come from a part of the country with nothing but hard, physical labour so I knew I'd have to educate myself to get out. Auto factory is hard physical labour? I spent my summers from 16 onwards working on a fishing trawler out in the middle of the Atlantic, 2-3 weeks at a time, no showers, 18 hours a day, basically lifting heavy crap in the worst seafaring conditions imaginable. Did it to save money for tuition, and let's be honest, university beer money. Also worked in a logging camp, again, backbreaking work lifting logs. And finally, worked in a warehouse during school for pocket money, again...more really heavy crap. Those jobs taught me two things: (1) the value of a dollar for hard work and (2) the value of getting educated so I wouldn't have to spend my life doing it. You don't know me buddy, so don't presume to. I recon I could 'out physical labour' you any day of the week, although I confess, you probably have me beat on the 'uneducated and lazy' part of the equation. Cheers.
  330. Phil Courterelle from Calgary, Canada writes: In Canada, since when can anyone or any government force a union into collective bargaining or to renegotiate a legal agreement? Never. The union must agree to enter into collective bargaining and re-open the agreement. The claim that the CAW is being 'forced' to re-re-negotiate is just media spin. If the CAW re-opens it's agreement with GM it is because it chooses to do so.

    It's not surprising that GM has asked to re-open the agreement given the CAW's concessions to Chrysler and especially given the union's past insistence on wage and benefit parity between Chrysler, GM and Ford. This is, in part, parity in reverse.

    It is, however, getting more and more difficult to see this as anything but union busting by the Ontario and federal governments. The governments should stay out of the fray until such time as GM or Chrysler present a re-structuring plan and request funds or loans. This allows the government to evaluate the benefits of the proposed restructuring on its merits.
  331. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Richard Keefer from Omemee, Canada writes: 'Our federal and provincial governments took no action at all either to enforce the Competition Act or introduce controls on oil prices '

    Control of oil prices by Canada?
    Not Saudi Arabic?
  332. S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:

    R E from Toronto......

    Amen.
  333. Chris Schott from Yellowknife, Canada writes: While I am unhappy to hear about the looming bankruptcy of GM, I am happy that the CAW is not asking taxpayers to backstop retiree's pensions anymore.

    ASking people without a pension (most Canadians) to pay to cover people who lost theirs is probably the most unfair thing in the world. Its bad enough we as taxpayers are throwing money at rotten companies in the hope that they can somehow avoid bankruptcy.

    Personally, I will never buy a GM or Chrysler....... and if these companies aren;t going to pay back their federal loand as a taxpayer I kind of feel liek they owe me one for free.
  334. Jim Sirianni from Canada writes: I can,t believe what I here and read. Seem,s as though everyone wants to blame the worker for managements mistakes. Because we (GM)went into negotiations like any privately independant person would do, to better their salary&benefits,not to mention all unionized personel who have stood at picket lines to try to have a better life for their families,and who are now pensioned off with the threat of not being able to collect the fruits of their sacrifice. I would urge Canadians to be a bit more lenient with their harshness towards the workers who only negotiated a contract of only a meeger 3% towards wages compared to politicians 25% raise, not to mention a pension that they recieve after only 6 years. Yes I think the government should bail GM out only as a loan to be repaid or the reprocussions will eventually trickle down to possibly your pocketbook in the way of lost jobs, lower wages yourselves, and probably higher taxes to pay everyone who have lost their employment due to scaleback,etc. If you allow Gm to go bankrupt you are ultimatly going to pay for it one way or another. Give them the resources they need and keep all of us working and keep it closely monitored.
  335. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Stan Dupp from Uzbekistan writes:Just remember that you didn't pay the full freight on your education. You got a lot of Joe Lunchpails taxes to see you on your patronizing and condescending way

    With your logic, all educated canadians should be thankful to autoworkers who pay taxes.

    Then, we should all be thankful to auto executives who pay more taxes.

    I think educated canadians pay taxes too.
  336. Stan Dupp from Uzbekistan writes:
    S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:

    Stan Dupp...

    The same is available for anyone out there who chooses to apply themselves. It wasn't exclusive.

    ===============================================

    So, because 'everybody can do it', you're more than happy to suck at the public teat? To have Joe Lunchpail pay for your education and then come here and condescend to the people who paid for your education?

    .
  337. R. Head from Kitchener, Canada writes: If you were running a business, and your sales took a 40-50% nosedive within a short period of time, would you blame your failure on the workers for making too much money?

    The base salary for an autoworker is 68k. Hardly living large. You have to consider that many of the jobs are physically very difficult and hazardous. On top of that, we work a lot of overtime when the market is booming, requiring us to be away from our families, often resulting in only one income coming in.

    I say let the companies fail too. The economy will collapse, and we will have to rewrite the whole system. Don't forget, the uncontrolled failure of GM would shut down all the automakers, as the suppliers would go belly up as well.

    The 78$ an hour includes the cost of GM's 250, 000 retiree's in North America. No one actually takes that home, lol.
  338. Red Storm Shadow from Vancouver, Canada writes: Let GM die and stop wasting our time and money on this fiasco. Anything worth salvaging will be resurrected by private companies and the world will go on as it should.

    RIP GM
  339. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Phil Courterelle from Calgary, Canada writes: 'The governments should stay out of the fray until such time as GM or Chrysler present a re-structuring plan and request funds or loans'

    The government should stay out of the whole bailout.
  340. Snorgy Smith from Calgary, Canada writes: Excellent post Dr. Xavier Octagonapus from Hamilton. I think you hit the nail on the head.
  341. Bill Darling from Canada writes: as the only entity willing to lend the Canadian arms of the D3 any money, it would be solely a prudent act to take any steps to make repayment of said funding at some point in the future; I am sure that both the US and Canadian governments have spent some time poing over the plans presented by both GM and Chrysler, and realize that, without some concession in the labour cost to better align with the transplants, the companies are not viable; so, yes, as a condition of receiving the bailout, the contracts must be re-opened; the CAW had a choice to make; they, and only they, must agree to re-negotiate by re-opening the contracts; they agreed; now time will tell if it's enough.
  342. S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:

    Stan Dupp......

    'So, because 'everybody can do it', you're more than happy to suck at the public teat? To have Joe Lunchpail pay for your education and then come here and condescend to the people who paid for your education?'

    If that's your perception of things...you can have it. It's not my choice, or anyone else out there to have public funds subsidize post secondary institutions. Lets be fair here friend. You don't know where I got my education...you just assume that it was here. The last tuition payment I made didn't have yours or Joe's signature on it.

    If your beef is with public funding of schools, then your on the wrong discussion board. And you may want to take the issue up with your MP, or MPP. Not me. I simply applied myself and got an education. Since that time, I have paid a pretty healthy amount of taxes, and can sleep at night no problem.

    Your comments seem directed just at a comment I've made. Joe I'm sure can respond in kind, and doesn't need you advocating for him.

    If you bother to scroll to the top, you'll see this panel is about GM bankruptcy, you may want to try commenting on that....
  343. Bang the Drum from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm not clear how blaming the union is in any way clarifying the problems with the Detroit Three. The unions NEGOTIATED big wages - and yes, they were undeniably generous - and the auto companies continued to post profits for decades. So, well paid workers does not necessarily = failing industry, does it? Ever heard of Fordism? (The understanding that if you don't pay people well, they can't afford to buy products in the marketplace and you end up with gluts of product sitting in warehouses). So how does a suddenly downward spiralling auto sector become the responsibility of the union? I smell a search for a scapegoat.
  344. Get back to Work from GANGcouver, Canada writes: auto workers should make market salaries.

    you know that they get paid above market because it is every politicians wet dream to get the auto industry in their region despite the fact that it is a terrible business.
  345. sluggo slugman from somewhere, Canada writes: Rain Couver from Canada writes: Sorry, can't comment, going to the VW dealership.

    ----------------

    Good, perhaps you'll get a Routan, VW's new minivan. Built in Canada at Chrysler's Windsor Assembly Plant by CAW workers. Seems VW did their due diligence and came to the conclusion that the best quality, cost effective minivan they could get would be built by crappy old Chrysler and their overpaid, uneducated workforce.
  346. Lord Gurr from Canada writes: 'Stan Dupp from Uzbekistan writes:

    Well pardon the great unwashed Piercy! Just remember that you didn't pay the full freight on your education. You got a lot of Joe Lunchpails taxes to see you on your patronizing and condescending way'

    I promise you Dupper that my hardworking folks paid more for my education that Joe Nimrod Lunchpails through their taxes....the next thing you're going to tell me is that Joe Nimrod Lunchpails somehow can take more credit for all of the things we hold dear and that they might have actually designed the cars they build, or come up with the theory that governs how the car runs etc etc......or somehow I ought to thank them because parts of their taxes help plow the snow from my road etc etc. Well that knife cuts both ways......my taxes paid for some Joe Nimrod Lunchpails heart bypass, does he owe me?? My taxes are actually keeping them employed...do I get a thank you? Heck no...all I get is the same tired nonsense that somehow our society would have or will crumble without the almighty autoworker....sorry pal....don't buy that.....
  347. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: R. Head from Kitchener, Canada writes: 'would you blame your failure on the workers for making too much money?'
    'The 78$ an hour includes the cost of GM's 250, 000 retiree's in North America. No one actually takes that home'

    You are late to the debate.

    Nobody blame autoworkers making too much money, if not other poorer canadians are asked to pay the bill.

    Retirees costs are earned during the employment before the retirement and counted as autoworkers earning. This is agreed by Jim Stanford, CAW economist, when claimed that such costs are effectively compensation after retirement which cannot be taken away.

    Hence, autoworkers make $76/hr (now reduced to $57/hr)

    GM needed substantial downsize to respond to substantial reduced demand.
  348. Harith Al-Shakarchi from St. Catharines, Canada writes: CAW states the obvious! WOW!
  349. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Bang the Drum from Toronto, Canada writes: 'So how does a suddenly downward spiralling auto sector become the responsibility of the union? I smell a search for a scapegoat. '

    The scape goat is poorer average canadians that are asked to pay the bill. I don't think they are responsible here.
  350. s c from Canada writes: Bang the Drum from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm not clear how blaming the union is in any way clarifying the problems with the Detroit Three. The unions NEGOTIATED big wages - and yes, they were undeniably generous - and the auto companies continued to post profits for decades. So, well paid workers does not necessarily = failing industry, does it? Ever heard of Fordism? (The understanding that if you don't pay people well, they can't afford to buy products in the marketplace and you end up with gluts of product sitting in warehouses). So how does a suddenly downward spiralling auto sector become the responsibility of the union? I smell a search for a scapegoat.

    ------------------------------

    It isn't the responsibility of the workers. Nor is it the responsibility of the taxpayers. When a company is no longer viable, it should be allowed to go under.

    GM and its union should negotiate earnings that vary with profits. When profitable, all employees do well. When not profitably, employees make significantly less. Most non-unionized employers already pay performance based compensation. If the revenue were to fall by 50% in my company, I know that my earnings would automatically fall by 25-30%.
  351. S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:
    Lord Gurr.....of course it would....their Union Stewards and Business agents told them it would.........and they know everything dont they?

    These are the same people who, until December, believed that the economic downturn was a tool being used to get them to give up concessions..............................well until other non auto people started losing their jobs, homes, etc......
  352. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'With your logic, all educated canadians should be thankful to autoworkers who pay taxes.

    Then, we should all be thankful to auto executives who pay more taxes.

    I think educated canadians pay taxes too.'

    ***

    I think I will take my chances with working Canadians as opposed to 'educated canadians' that can't piece together a sentence.

    Gawd.
  353. Lee D from Canada writes: I'm sick and tired about hearing these clowns at the CAW and the UAW. File Chapter 11 and get this nonsense over with. Just a bunch of overpaid and underworked sorry soles as far as I'm concerned. They are just as greedy as the millionaire CEOs, so let them all pay the price of lower wages and cutbacks. I'm in the market for a new vehicle and I'm seriously looking at a foreign vehicle versus the Big 3. Why help these clowns!
  354. Michael S from Canada writes: NO MORE MONEY. Let GM stand or fall. No bailout! I refuse to ever buy a bailout vehicle. This is all wasted taxpayer money. We'll never see it again.
  355. Stan Dupp from Uzbekistan writes:
    S Piercey from Orangeville, Canada writes:
    If you bother to scroll to the top, you'll see this panel is about GM bankruptcy, you may want to try commenting on that....

    ===================================

    You just don't get it do you?

    I take exception to you and others who are only too happy to go on about their education, how that makes them 'better' than the lowly line worker all the while ignoring who helped pay for it.

    And I don't need you to tell me what to comment on.

    .
  356. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'You are late to the debate.

    Nobody blame autoworkers making too much money, if not other poorer canadians are asked to pay the bill.

    Retirees costs are earned during the employment before the retirement and counted as autoworkers earning. This is agreed by Jim Stanford, CAW economist, when claimed that such costs are effectively compensation after retirement which cannot be taken away.

    Hence, autoworkers make $76/hr (now reduced to $57/hr)

    GM needed substantial downsize to respond to substantial reduced demand. '

    ***

    Are you as think as I drunk you are or is it just that 'spensive education of yours doin' the talkin?

    Golly.
  357. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Lee D from Canada writes:

    'a bunch of overpaid and underworked sorry soles as far as I'm concerned.'

    ***

    Soles?

    You mean shoes or fish?

    Please clarify.
  358. Roger Cooper from Canada writes: GM Bankruptcy PLEASE, says CAW.

    Given the deal they managed with Chrysler.

    Taxpayers, empty BOTH pockets now please.
  359. Bang the Drum from Toronto, Canada writes: s c - I agree with you. I'm not arguing for a government bail-out, just to be clear. And of course, if industry suffers, negotiating wages based on the new reality should take place. I'm just saying that causally the workers can't take the blame for the industry arriving at this state of affairs. But having arrived, that changes everything. They will grumble, but I think they will and should accept a cut if that's what is needed to stay viable. And no, I don't want to pay for it. They make way more than I do or perhaps ever will. It's just a bit rich to fault them for negotiating good salaries in the boom times, as if that is what underlies auto sector failure. The problem is in the market. It doesn't want their product any more. Let it die.
  360. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: Stan Dupp from Uzbekistan writes:'I take exception to you and others who are only too happy to go on about their education, how that makes them 'better' than the lowly line worker all the while ignoring who helped pay for it.'

    All educated canadians should all be thankful to autoworkers, who helped pay for their education.

    All educated canadians should all be more thankful to auto executives, who helped more pay for their education by paying more taxes.

    500,000 unemployed canadians, making less than $20/hr, should be thankful to autoworkers, taking their money so that autoworkers can keep on paying taxes to help educated canadians.

    What a logic!
  361. IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: GM is toast!!

    GM has gay workers too!
  362. John Johnson from Canada writes: Re: Bill Darling from Canada writes: John Johnson - can you explain the $76/hr number??

    Bill, it roughly goes like this (with apologies to Edwin Lee who does not understand mathematics):

    Cash wages / hr - $32 - $34 / hour

    Benefits to current workers on the line (including current contribution of pension (paid by employer) and employer's portion of EI and CPP that all employers pay by the way (but that no one else ever quotes)) - maybe $10 - $15 / hour

    Legacy costs - various numbers have been mentioned - $8 / hr (and up depending on the current overcapacity in the industry) (note to everyone, the current employee on the line is not receiving the benefit of current cash costs to fund legacy cost obligations for autoworkers now retired)

    Huge overcapacity factor - ~ $19/ hour - $26/ hour (based on the fact that a lot fewer cars are being produced than during normal times)

    I hope this helps!
  363. IHATE UNIONS from Canada writes: The CAW has totaly destroyed the 'Small3' in Canada.

    I am going to vote for any Gov't that opposes bailouts and handouts of taxpayers money to poorly managed companys and grossly fat Unions.

    McGuilty and Harpo..are you listening?
  364. Bill Darling from Canada writes: R Head from Kitchener - what per cent of the $76/hr (your $78) is actually for the retirees pensions & benefits??; when I work it backwards, and allowing for an inflation adjusted similar benefit when you retire in a few years, I get a number of $5 - 7/hr; or do you expect future D3 employees to pay for your pension & benefits when you retire???; might be a risky venture given the state of the D3.
  365. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Sweeney, the fact that GM counted the $38 billion owed to the pension fund as a loss when they havent even put the money in yet shows how smart accounting allows them to show a loss when in reality they havent lost that money.

    =======================================

    So, can explain to me how GM's playing fast & loose with accounting encourages the average taxpayer - ME, for example - to to think 'happy thoughts' about shoveling yet more billions of tax dollars into the burning building that is GM/Chrysler?

    So far, everything you've posted just confirms that as far as GM goes:

    1/ The ship has sailed.

    2/ The fat lady has sung.

    3/ Elvis has left the building.

    Billions of dollars have been spent/stolen/lost? OK...that's really too bad. But the Canadian taxpayer didn't spend, steal, or lose it. Yet somehow, you feel it's OK to come to us to cover the loss? Guess again, Rob...
  366. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: John Johnson from Canada writes: Legacy costs - various numbers have been mentioned - $8 / hr overcapacity factor - ~ $19/ hour - $26/ hour (note to everyone, the current employee on the line is not receiving the benefit of current cash costs to fund legacy cost obligations for autoworkers now retired)

    You did not earn these legacy cost before you retire..

    But you are entitled to these legacy costs after you retire?

    Not logical.
  367. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'phil from Calgary' @3:57PM

    FINALLY a voice of reason from the fair prov. of Alberta !! You guys are as scarce as hens' teeth, used to bashing our brains out with the inbred hatred of Ontario.

    Great post !! I made a similar one WAY back @12:36PM about #100 or so. I happen to be a CAWer-GMer retired.

    The union and GM HAVE to be given the time to do it right. The Chrysler deal is a decent 'template', but you cannot bargain in good faith in 8 days when it takes months to set it all up(quicker here with the template) but Chrysler is a private company and GM is not.

    The brinksmanship is dusgusting at best. They know it's bloody well impossible to do it in 8 days. They ARE in a 'union busting' mood and I thought I'd NEVER see the day this side of the Canadian-American border, ESPECIALLY from a Liberal-McGuinty - disgraceful !! As far as Clement and harpoon are concerned, NOTHING negative in this this would EVER surprise me with those CRAP mutts !!
  368. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'John Johnson from Canada writes: the current employee on the line is not receiving the benefit'

    ***

    The only line that Edwin Lee is pushing for is the poverty line.

    That and his marvelous education will buy him a Timbit.
  369. anonymous in Ont from Canada writes: s c from Canada writes: Yvonne - what is reported in papers is very poorly done in most cases as the pension issues are not well understood. As GM has a defined benefit pension rather than a defined contribution pension, GM and the CAW negotiate the pension formula. In the early 1990s, GM couldn't afford to contribute the amount needed to fund the shortfall that existed at that time as we were going through a recession. The government agreed to give GM more time by lowering the minimum contribution requirements to help GM avoid bankruptcy at the time. If they didn't, GM would have been dealing with the issues they now face 15 years ago. When things started to turn around, GM and the union choose to negotiate a larger pension benefit formula ignoring the huge shortfall that existed in its pension plan. This was a big mistake. The company and the union should have left the pension formula alone until the shortfall had been funded. By ignoring the shortfall and increasing benefits further time and time again, they arrived at the current situation where the shortfall is in the billions. If GM were go under now, this shortfall would not be funded and retirees would lose some of their pensions. If GM does not go under, the company and the union get to continue to close their eyes and hope the pension deficit magically goes away on its own (for a little longer). The governments role was only helping GM not go bankrupt 15-20 years ago. The union and the company made all the mistakes over the past 15 years to make matters worse. Funds were not mismanaged but the negotiations were. ----------------------------------- Right on!
  370. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada - This whole dance is little more than a game of musical chairs. It's about 'not being blamed'. Like Chrysler a few days ago, the trick is to get somebody else to look like the company being taken into bankruptcy protection is THEIR fault. The key is to have a chair when the music stops. It was the bondholders who got blamed for Chrysler having to face the music. A similar scenario will play out with GM. The bondholders will be the 'bad guys' once again. Not the gov't, not the company, not the union...unless they fail to offer GM the pattern deal they set with Chrysler. The music will stop playing very soon, and your fearless leader Kenny knows it. He will NOT let the CAW be left with 'no seat'.
  371. Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes: s c from Canada writes: 'Funds were not mismanaged but the negotiations were.'

    You misjudged the power of 'sense of entitlement'.

    John Johnson from Canada said:
    They did not earn the legacy costs (retirees' pension & benefits) during employment
    They entitled to receive the legacy costs upon retirement.

    Best example to illustrate the sense of entitlement. They did not earn that income but are entitled to the income after retirement.
  372. That Guy from Canada writes:
    Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: The union and GM HAVE to be given the time to do it right

    Why do they have to be given time?

    If they aren't given enough time, GM won't take public money?
    Is that a threat or a promise?
  373. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'anonymous' - YOU'RE WRONG. There were several companies declared to be 'Too big to fail' in the early 90s. GM is the ONLY one left allowed to underfund its pension obligations to the CAW-GM retirees, such as myself. The CAW has gone hat-in-hand to the Ontario gov't MANY times to get the legislation reversed - NO DICE !!
    In BOOM times GM could easily have made up the shortfall, but due to the likes of Mike Harris and McGuinty, they would NOT change legislation that needed to be changed back.
    The CAW did NOTHING wrong in negotiations. Do you honestly think ANY union should be responsible for the inanities of gov't legislation that is WAY out of date and should have been changed many years ago and our pension fund would be just fine ??
    GM took OUR money as pissed it away in Mexico and other 3rd world countries - THATs the truth here, NOT the garbage in your post. As a 45-yr active and retired CAWer-GMer, I know of which I speak.
    Your post is FALSE and made up for affect for the unwashed dummies on here who just don't get it !! It's a shame the lies and innuendo on here cannot be debunked and cancelled for their wretchedly 'composed fairytales' !!
  374. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Well, union bashing is union bashing, even if it operates under the guise of a response to an economic crisis. When you have a federal government minister joining with company heads to bash unions, it is pretty darn distasteful and completely unacceptable.

    The problems in the auto sector come from mismanagement of the companies, from trade deals that gave an unfair advantage to imports and from a financial crisis started by banks on Wall Street. For all those reasons the companies need government help. None of this excuses the dishonesty and the opportunism of the attack on unionized workers.
  375. Does The Work from Canada writes: So, you Canadians don't believe we have a Pro Business anti-person Government? Both of our so-called people Governments have conspired to DICTATE the auto manufacturing sector in one fell swoop. The reason? cause they can. And they are doing it with YOUR money. Result.... lower wages, for the auto sector now, (and BILLIONS flowing back as tax dollars). Auto sector = sliced bread. What's next, well lets do the public Employee's Union, now thats a FAT cat with sparrow in mouth, that union can't even speak the word CONCESSION, had it taken out of every dictionary in Headquarters. After that OPG, after that, the teachers. Are you Canadians catching this snowball. The hill is steep and you are all at the bottom, one bright spot. Our NAFTA brother's the Mexican's will be not be an issue cause Obama has said it shall be so. I was going to rant but this was quite theraputic. Enjoy your 15 minutes, no Tax. The rest of Canada (mostly the west) is peeved that All Canadians are supporting the auto sector with Government funds. I've been paying extra tax on fuel since Joe Clark lost his Job by suggesting a 1% REDUCTION in this tax. He was Prime minister at the time by the by. Oh yeah the tax SUBSIDISES Alberta's fragile oil economy at the expense of the rest of Canada. ShSh no one should notice this cause the Government would never unilaterally disadvantage a CANADIAN with illegal tampering in a private company would they. OOOPs it's 2009 and the with the combined power of Federal and Provincial chicken coups they have decreed that retired workers from GM and Chrysler are to blame for economic issues. What sheep, all braying together to get a GM and Chrysler are LAUGHING at the average Canadian citizen and calling all the other SHAREHOLDERS of companies owned outside Canada to 'come on in', Canadian labour is so productive and costs so little they need to just to beg for a job. Just by threatening thousands of employee's with their job's they will
  376. anonymous in Ont from Canada writes: Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes:The CAW did NOTHING wrong in negotiations. Do you honestly think ANY union should be responsible for the inanities of gov't legislation that is WAY out of date and should have been changed many years ago and our pension fund would be just fine ??
    GM took OUR money as pissed it away in Mexico and other 3rd world countries - THATs the truth here, NOT the garbage in your post. As a 45-yr active and retired CAWer-GMer, I know of which I speak.
    Your post is FALSE and made up for affect for the unwashed dummies on here who just don't get it !! It's a shame the lies and innuendo on here cannot be debunked and cancelled for their wretchedly 'composed fairytales' !!
    --------------------------------------------
    First of all are you saying the CAW's hands were tied & they could do nothing about the pension funds while it was being negotiated lol...that's a first for the CAW protesting helplessness, 2nd) how does this equate to the taxpayers being responsible for GM being mismanaged by ALL parties! The only 'fairytale' is GM, CAW & autoworkers expecting the taxpayers to bail them out. Loss of 6 billion in the first quarter, yeah what an investment.
  377. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Edwin Lee from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'They entitled to receive the legacy costs upon retirement.'

    ***

    Your arguments would make way more sense if your superior education had taught you to speak English.

    But, we can't have it all can we?
  378. Tiu Leek from Canada writes: 'This whole dance is little more than a game of musical chairs. It's about 'not being blamed'. '

    Yeah, and when the water finally closes over their head, the last thing they'll say before drowning is: it's their fault!!.

    I keep waiting for someone to finally face reality. And absolutely no one's doing it.

    Makes you wonder what other things both government and business aren't willing to face up to.

  379. John Johnson from Canada writes: Edwin Lee, employees do not receive legacy costs upon retirement. They receive pensions and other post-retirement benefits such as health care. Legacy costs are the current CASH costs funded by the employer to pay for these benefits for employees now retired off. Please note that a lot of other companies, industries and governments for that matter do not factor in 'legacy costs' in their per hour calculation of costs (and certainly not a factor for significant overcapacity that currently exists in the automotive industry). Also the significant majority of businesses work on the basis that they will grow from year to year (or at worst, not decline), so when the economic fundamentals change significantly, like we have seen in the past year or so, then sure, you can bandy about some nonsensical number which you tell everyone on here is the 'salary / hour' each current employee is getting the benefit of. Edwin, you also mention entitlement. I believe that you are confusing entitlement with benefits earned during your entire employment with a company. How about these other industries and government too? A lot of the employees and executives have a defined benefit pension plan and other benefits that they receive during their retirement, but do you ever see this amount mentioned in the press? Never! You also post about logic all the time, but your arguments apparently have little or next-to-no logic. You do not apparently have any mathematics skills (even though you apparently say you are educated). You also need to understand the difference, among other things, between cash costs (to a company), accounting costs to a company (which differ from cash costs), gross cash payments received by an employee, gross post-retirement cash payments received by an employee, and oh by the way, not co-mingling these amounts. Also you continually compare apples to oranges (might explain why you are not earning an above-average salary package).
  380. Bill Darling from Canada writes: John Johnson - the cost of $76/hr is often quoted as the 'cost of labour' so for the overcapacity cost of labour due to production low volumes = (19 26)/2 = 22.50/hr would mean that the assembly line is idled 30% of the time; seems high to me; almost = 1 shift; as for benefits & pensions $10 - 15/hr, I did some lookup in simple interest tables; if you retired today, and received the same pension and benefits as paid today, inflation adjusted, over 25 yrs, you would need a nest egg of ~$750,000 today; if you were to start today, just to have this nest egg with no adjustment for inflation or return on investment, you would need to put aside $12.50/hr; in 30 yrs, at 2.5% inflation, you would need ~2 x the nest egg; inflation over the last 25 yrs avg = 3.79% ( excluding those crazy periods in the early 80's ); if similar going forward, you would need 3 x the nest egg; so $10 - 15/hr including pension is low; pension cost alone is probably $12.50 - 15/hr; from the recent report from Jim Stanford stating the wages & benefits costs were $44/hr and the letter to employees from T Lasorda, I surmise that benefit costs are $9 - 10/hr; these then add up to 34 13.75 avg 9.5 avg = $57.25/hr; this is per hour paid; given the two week shutdowns at Christmas and early July, the stats, spa weeks. etc, the actual on line time for each employee is 44 wks per year; to get the labour cost per hour of runtime, the $57.25 must be factored by 52/44 x 57.25 = $67.66/hr worked; the difference bewtween this number & the $76 is the legacy cost = 76 - 67.66 = $8.34/hr line time or very close to your number for same; and yes this legacy cost does not go into your paycheque; it represents the 'unplanned' cost of pensions & benefits for retirees as I am sure they have improved over the last 30 yrs
  381. Alan Toong from Toronto, Canada writes: Good bye GM. You had the best resources in many years to produce vehicles that consumers would buy based on value, quality, style and functionality. But you dropped the ball too may times and you're out!
  382. Tiu Leek from Canada writes: Sometimes, I suspect that the level of anger on this board is proportional to the level of denial.

    Or, in other words, when things get tough, people tend to start looking for scapegoats.

    Blame the CEO's. workers, Japanese, globalisation, or the moon's gravitional pull on the Earth if it makes you feel better, boys.

    The basic problem still remains: people aren't buying cars in the same numbers they used to.

    The industry has to shrink. Which means, our economic way of life has to as well.
  383. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: The head of Fiat, the company that wants to merge with Chrysler, has said that Chrysler workers have to “end their sense of entitlement.” That seems to mean that these union members have to end the sense that they are entitled to the wages and benefits they’ve bargained for – and signed a collective agreement for. How dare they think they have the right to what they’ve signed a contract for!

    So a potential new boss wants to drive the wages and benefits of his potential employees down before he takes over the company. Just exactly how surprising is that? To elevate that kind of management tactic to the level of government policy is absurd.

    Why are 20 countries providing financial support to their auto industries – and only two of those 20 making a condition of that support that the workers in the industry take massive cuts in wages and benefits? The two exceptions are the U.S. and Canada. And no, it’s not because autoworkers here earn more. Canada has lower employee costs than Germany or Japan, for example.
  384. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: Tiu Leek from Canada writes:

    Or, in other words, when things get tough, people tend to start looking for scapegoats.

    ***

    A more than reasonable comment Tiu Leek.

    But I just can't figure out why the shop floor worker has been made the scapegoat when any dimwit knows otherwise.

    Convenient, but disgusting.
  385. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Union wages account for about 7% of the cost of a car. If union wages were cut in half, that would mean a cut of 3.5% in the total cost of the car. Will that trigger a flood of new car sales? It hasn’t ever happened in the past, so why would it now?

    Experts have calculated that if CAW members worked free for a year the companies would be able to last an extra 11 days – that’s the extent of the cost relief from no wages at all.

    For the overall economy, major cuts in the wages and benefits of autoworkers will drive this limp and flagging economy even further into the ditch. Canada desperately needs purchasing power in the hands of consumers, desperately needs the economy to reinflate. Cutting the wages of a significant part of the workforce is exactly the opposite of what is needed now.

    The economy got into trouble because of rampant greed at the top, deregulation that allowed that greed to go unchecked, growing inequality between the rich and the rest of us and trade deals that cost us our ability to protect ourselves. Workers’ wages are nowhere on the list of economic problems, except insofar as they are too low. And that’s contributing to the flattened economy.
  386. Jeff Michaels from Toronto, Canada writes: Time to end the corporate welfare. Death to the CAW, Chrysler and GM.
  387. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Canada’s auto industry is in trouble now because the economy is in trouble and people aren’t buying cars right now. No amount of union bashing by the federal government will change any of these facts. Finally, let it be said one more time: the double standard at work here is breathtaking. When has any federal minister called for a clawback of the outrageous salaries and benefits of CEOs – in the banks and in the auto companies? Before the banks could get federal money they had to promise nothing; before auto companies get federal money they have to promise to beat up their workers. Neither had to touch their CEO salaries. GM workers have given up $1 billion in benefit costs, and they are being asked for more. They are told that the pensions they worked for all their lives won’t be secure. Meanwhile, the CEO of GM, the executive who drove the company over the cliff, walks away with an estimated $23 million in pensions and benefits. The greed and irresponsibility, the sense of entitlement of those at the top, the insistence that executives and not workers should pocket all the benefits, all of those things that led us to the hole we’re now in, are all on full display in the attack on autoworkers.
  388. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes:

    'To elevate that kind of management tactic to the level of government policy is absurd.'

    ***

    Rob,

    We live in a society where theft by the few at the top is encouraged and applauded.

    Any attempt by those on the bottom rung to improve their lot is crushed without mercy.

    And an awful lot of idiots on the bottom rung endorse it.

    Unbelievable.
  389. J. Michael from Canada writes: The aggressive car leasing strategy introduced years ago to increase car sales is at the root of the industries problems today. It artificially increased sales, but resulted in flooding the market with almost new used vehicles. There are now so many cars out there we don't know where to store them.

    Leasing vehicles to little old ladies that only drive to church on Sunday might seem like a good idea, but only short term.

    I always thought this day would eventually come. It amazes me how stupid the automotive executives are, or maybe they figured that if things went pear shape the government would bail them out!
  390. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Last year the heads of the 100 largest companies in Canada 'earned' an average of $10 million each. Collectively, they took home $1 billion dollars - enough to pay the wages of 20,000 workers earning $50,000 each.

    That kind of absurd economic plutocracy has been developing for years, part of a growing culture of greed and entitlement that led directly to the economic collapse we’re now enduring.

    One of our political leaders recently proclaimed that “we’re all in this mess together.” That might be true at some level, but we sure aren’t all in the same place in the mess. The CEOs who drove their companies into the ditch will walk away with their millions of dollars in severance and their multi-million dollar annual pensions. The workers who lose their jobs with those companies will, if they are lucky, qualify for Employment Insurance (EI).
  391. t w from Canada writes: The government should just get out of the car business altogether and spend their billions of dollars on R&D incentives to develop a mobile energy storage system. Something useful instead of supporting old outdated technology ie. the internal combustion engine.

  392. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Rob Latimer - the autoworkers do not represent a significant part of the Canadian workforce; including D3 employees, parts & material suppliers, dealers & mechanics, etc, the total number of jobs with direct dependence the auto industry is ~2% of all Canadians epmployed; hardly a significant part, wouldn't you say
  393. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    J. Michael from Canada writes:

    'The aggressive car leasing strategy introduced years ago to increase car sales is at the root of the industries problems today.'

    ***

    There is no question that this did not help J. Michael.

    But, come on, the American consumer cannot get a loan to lease or buy.

    It has nothing to do with the auto industry.

    Be real.
  394. anonymous in Ont from Canada writes: What is unbelievable is expecting taxpayers to waste our money on a bad investment. Frankly I don't care how much the workers make if it is not MY MONEY. 2) Losing 6 billion $ in the first quarter does not make me have a warm fuzzy feeling re:this bail out 3)GM is not a Canadian company(has Mexico been expected to offer money ) 4) If it wasn't for the tax $ there would be no bickering re:wages/benefit cuts as bankruptcy would have happened long ago5) We as the taxpayers owe you nothing, which is what I would expect if I lost my job aside from EI . So plz explain why it makes sense to keep a sinking business afloat when it was losing money during good times let alone during the recession we now face
  395. Vic Hotte from Canada writes: Mr. McGuinty said “We cannot come to the table on behalf of Canadian taxpayers unless there are significant contributions made by everybody else' ... so politicians and public employees are cutting their salaries by how much? Government orders the CAW to take wage cuts ... fine ... but politicians must set an example since their salaries, benefits, pension and perquisites have a habit of rising year after year.
  396. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Bill...that was a direct quote from Larry Brown
    National Secretary-Treasurer
    National Union of Public and General Employees (NUPGE)
    I would think he'd have a better idea than you and I of how many jobs the auto workers represent.
  397. Alan Toong from Toronto, Canada writes: The bottom line is.....stop subsidizing any private enterprises, we the consumers should decide whether GM or other companies should exist, this is a free enterprise system, we are not a socialist country. When they were making billions not too long ago, did they help the country?
  398. anonymous in Ont from Canada writes: Vic Hotte from Canada writes: Mr. McGuinty said “We cannot come to the table on behalf of Canadian taxpayers unless there are significant contributions made by everybody else' ... so politicians and public employees are cutting their salaries by how much? Government orders the CAW to take wage cuts ... fine ... but politicians must set an example since their salaries, benefits, pension and perquisites have a habit of rising year after year.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    There should be no 'bail out' ergo wages/benefit cuts is moot. I agree politicians & public employees should face cuts as well but then again neither are apparently going to happen
  399. Ken from calgary from Canada writes: Lot of CAW members posting here -

    I have never seem so much support for unaccountability and victimization. I could only hope that I could get a loan that I never have to repay.

    How you CAW folk justify that?

    You know that the first step to self-empowerment is to look at yourself for the cause and the solution. Stop blaming the world for your issues, take control and move your life ahead.
  400. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Rob, Kan & Mark - The CAW brought the vast majority of negative thoughts & comments on itself. For literally decades - at least in ON - Bob White & Buzz pushed the left-wing political agenda HARD. It was WAY outside what would normally be the scope of union influence. I recall the CAW being tossed out of the CLC for a while, for poaching members from other unions. It's almost as if the CAW went out of its way to alienate as many people as possible. And now, the CAW is bewildered that they just don't seem to have all that many friends?
  401. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada,

    Sweet.

    I had no idea the CAW was so powerful as to create a global financial crisis.

    Thanks for the info.
  402. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada,

    Sweet.

    I had no idea the CAW was so powerful as to create a global financial crisis.

    Thanks for the info.

    =========================================

    I'm not talking about the global financial mess, just the level of public support for the CAW. Focus, Kanny...
  403. Joe Kolo from Canada writes: Lets see the big three make a ratio of 10 cars for every 7 people buying, no wonder we're in this mess. We only need two of the big three. Law of business: supply and demand. Man the stupidity never ends here with the government and the CAW. WE DON'T NEED THREE ANYMORE!!!!TWO WILL DO!!!!Silverado, GM'S only prize line can be sold off to Ford or Crysler to pay off debt and the other crap can sold for scrap or closed down.
    More money is going to go down the toilet, then there will some enlightment by the government that says holy crap we're not going to get out investment back. USE THE MONEY FOR NEW BUSINESSES that have a chance to succeed.....
  404. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Rob Latimer - please look up article quoting BMO Capital Markets economist in Financial Post Nov 08; direct D3, parts suppliers, dealers account for 1.2%; spinoff to non-auto businesses account for
    another 0.7 - 0.8%; impact on GDP 2.2%
  405. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada from Canada writes: I also apologize to Ed and other that I have vented at today.

    I am a stupid old fool and I will try to see the positives in life.

    I feel like the CAW, unloved and unwanted.

    From this moment forward, I will try to be a role model for others. I may depart from this enlightenment. But please try to see that I am a kind gentle soul underneath this vile shell that spews vemon at reason and logic.
  406. Joe Kolo from Canada writes: How many lots are there throughout Canada and the US that have brand new 08's and 09's sitting there. Well the lot down the street from me, yes it's a GM dealership, there is at least 50, (2008's) if not more sitting in the back and a whack of 2009's sitting on the side lots. Where the hell are they going to put the 2010's. No one is buying these vehicles. Fully loaded GMC two years ago they wanted 50 grand, now the same truck for 28 grand and still none is buying. Yet the Mazda dealership across the street with a lot 1/10th the size of the GM lot has a dozen cars or so for sale there and no new 08's or 09's? They do have some 08 trade in ones in the used carlot part of their property.
  407. jan theman from Canada writes: Bla bla bla! Free market blalblal bla bla. Bla bla let em fail bla bla. Tax payer money blablabla. bla blalblalbla. $76/h bla bla blalblalbla bla. Bla bla bal lazy bla unmotivated bla bla blablabla.
  408. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    If it reads:

    'Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada from Canada writes:'

    Double on the 'Canada'.

    It's not me.

    I have obviously tweaked some CCRAPer's nose and spurred them on.

    Maybe I am as powerful as the CAW after all.

    Gosh.
  409. B, Ont. Canada from Canada writes: No big surprise with all this, most have said that it would all come down to this.

    CAW labour had better get use to a new way of thinking, with AC on its list, and many others, the day of reckoning has come that its not all about cash, it’s a survival game and it is not the Auto makers that will lose if a new way in thinking with the grey matter between the ears does not come to light.

    Ken, so many warned and told you so.
  410. Joe Kolo from Canada writes: ***************************************************
    Government should take what is needed to bail out GM and divide that by all the taxpayers and give us a refund on our taxes and we'll spend that money so fit and the spinoffs from our spending will help across Canada not just pissing the money away in Southern Ontario.

    *****************************************************
  411. Kothar Rumbleg from Canada writes: Well looks like all the tax payer money shoveled over to Gm is going to evaporate into thin air. Well I guess it is time to stop working and paying taxes since I can't stop the gov from throwing away the money I give them from my hard work. Let them come after me, send me off to jail. At least there you get free room and board and free education with your tax payer money. Not only that I could exercise all day and get the buff body I always wanted!
  412. S Piercey from Canada writes:

    Stan Dupp

    Oh I get it.

    The point being made is that Union salaries and legacy costs are a direct contributor to GMs and the other domestic automakers demise.

    My opinion of line workers are this. They had a good run for a while. Do I agree with the wages they receive...no. Do I have a problem with an individual line worker on here thinking that the sun rises and sets on the auto industry...yes. The economy has hurt everyone, and the implication that anyone in an office, or profession hasn't had a tough time lately, is not only wrong....it's downright ignorant.

    I blame the automakers for allowing their wage scale to get so far out of whack, just to prevent strike action which would result in a shutdown.

    If you actually feel that I owe you directly for any costs for my education......I'll send you the quarter in the mail......that's about $0.24999 too much, but I'm willing to be generous. My education got me in my field.....my hard work, and professionalism got me up the ladder where I am now. I sure as heck don't owe you for that either.

    Now how about actually arguing the points of the conversation, instead of personally attacking me? Or are you afraid you couldn't hold up your end?
  413. CallofDuty . from Canada writes: I know who to free up the GM lots. Give every tax payer a new car for free. We have been paying for them for years now.
  414. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    B, Ont. Canada from Canada writes:

    "CAW labour had better get use to a new way of thinking"

    ***

    Does this mean we all have to get "use" to your way of thinking and work for $9.25 an hour?

    Man.

    What a world!

    I can't wait.
  415. Bill Darling from Canada writes: further to Sweeney Todd's post at 6:18p today, the whole issue around the $76/hr has been very poorly handled by the CAW; first, they didn't recognize the potential backlash from the public; then outright denial, which continued until the report issued by their in-house research economist that said the highest was $44/hr; then the negotiations with Chrysler that 'gave up the $19/hr without touching the wages or pension, and the statement that 'the wages and benefits package is now on par with the transplants'; wage/benefit/pension package cost of $57/hr ( 76 - 19 ) which leaves what??? for retirees; what have they given up???; they couldn't even vote on it
  416. D K from Canada writes: This will help us sell more cars says the CAW.
  417. S Piercey from Canada writes:

    Kan Tankerous....

    I don't think $9.25 is realistic ( minimum is going to $10.50 after all). But neither is $74 per hour either.

    Would I want to do mind numbing, repetitive work hour after hour, day after day? I'd probably eat a bullet.... That type of work should be factored in. I'm thinking $20-$40 per hour, plus benefits, might fit the bill? Considering that one can virtually be hired with no skill sets ( yeah I know this Stan Dupp guys going to pounce on that one).....but realistically, CAW and UAW are going to have to take the hit if they want their employers to remain viable.

    That's if GM can actually get on top of customer demand and make a car people want.
  418. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    S Piercey from Canada writes:

    "That's if GM can actually get on top of customer demand and make a car people want."

    ***

    I take it you have never checked out real auto sales figures.

    Canadians seem to buy autos made by greedy, fat, lazy, over-paid and uneducated autoworkers.

    But what do Canadians know?
  419. Bill Darling from Canada writes: just heard that the salaried employees at Chrysler LLC who opted to not take a lump sum severance have now lost that severance - cash conservation; thought severance was mandated in labour laws, but maybe not; makes you wonder, though, how much longer the SUB top ups for hourly workers will continue, and if it goes in the US, can Canada be far behind???
  420. S Piercey from Canada writes:

    Kan Tankerous...

    Count this Canadian out then. I have owned vehicles made by all the D3 at one point or another.....I haven't bought domestic for the past 6 years.....I'm part of the problem I guess. But I'm a consumer....and haven't seen, or driven anything that made me want to part with my hard earned scheckels. I also have fleet vehicles that are domestic.....and not terribly impressed with any of them.

    And in fact....auto sales figures reflect that North America as a whole has seen a huge loss of market share for all the D3 manufacturers. Regardless of increases in sales volume.
  421. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Imagine.

    The Wagoners and Lasordas and Nardellis and Enrons and Nortels are contributing so much to society.

    And then, you get some nerd like me on here who says "wait a minute".

    What was I thinking?

    Bend me over.
  422. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Let it be known that I am very sympathetic to the GM (and Chrysler) workers because a lot of people would have liked to work for these companies if they had had the opportunity. HOWEVER, their workers enjoyed great wages and benefits and it is not my fault that these Companies have been mismanaged and now, because of the financial crisis, they are in this bankrupt situation, I DO NOT WANT TO BE A SHAREHOLDER of either of these Companies. I want to be free to decide what make of car I would like to drive and I do not think that that is asking too much in a democracy. THEREFORE, I DO NOT GIVE EITHER THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT PERMISSION TO USE MY TAX DOLLARS TO SUBSIDIZE EITHER OF THESE COMPANIES.
  423. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    S Piercey from Canada writes:

    "And in fact....auto sales figures reflect that North America as a whole has seen a huge loss of market share for all the D3 manufacturers. Regardless of increases in sales"

    ***

    Huh?

    Regardless of increases in sales?

    That's like saying water is less popular even though consumption is up?

    The Ford F150 was the top selling vehicle in Canada in 2008. The Dodge Challenger production could not keep up with demand.

    Sure.

    Canadians want to drive garbage little puddle jumpers through the snow.

    Um, for sure.
  424. Fractional Reserve Banking from Canada writes:
    The D3 appear to sell cars in Japan. NEWSFLASH!!!!!!

    http://www.ford.co.jp/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=DFY/JP
    http://www.chrysler-japan.com/
    http://www.gm.com/corporate/about/globaloperations/asiapacific/japa.jsp
    http://www.opel.co.jp/

    What's this? More car companies in Japan????

    http://www.bmw.co.jp/jp/ja/
    http://www.renault.jp/
    http://www.mercedes-benz.co.jp/
    http://www.porsche.com/japan/jp/
    http://www.jaguar.com/jp/ja/home.htm
    http://www.volvocars.com/jp/Pages/default.aspx

    Could it possibly be that the Japanese don't want D3 products?
    You think?

    No, probably not, the Japanese are probably to blame, damn those pesky Japanese!
  425. B, Ont. Canada from Canada writes: Well there $9.25 guy if you take a look at average incomes in Canada you will see that most survive on a lot less then auto workers.

    Just a stat to get that grey matter in motion. A two parent working family with children, the average income after tax is about? $75,000

    P/S, and you know the auto worker will never be in the $9.25 wage, Man!!!
  426. A Calgarian from Canada writes: Good!
  427. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    B, Ont. Canada from Canada writes:

    "Well there $9.25 guy if you take a look at average incomes in Canada you will see that most survive on a lot less then auto workers."

    ***

    I sure hope your employer pays you more "then" the average autoworker.

    I think you'd strike out if you ever applied for an autoworker's job because you don't appear to have more brains "then" a piece of bark.

    But that's just the way it goes.
  428. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: B, Ont. Canada from Canada writes: Well there $9.25 guy if you take a look at average incomes in Canada you will see that most survive on a lot less then auto workers.

    Just a stat to get that grey matter in motion. A two parent working family with children, the average income after tax is about? $75,000

    P/S, and you know the auto worker will never be in the $9.25 wage, Man!!!
    ___________________________________

    So what do you imagine autoworkers make a year?
  429. dagne mrth from Canada writes: A company that pays unskilled labor the same as engineers going bankrupt because they didn't engineer any good models, what a surprise.

    This is how the economy works, you get paid for what your labor is worth, when you go against that system, the system will eventually force you to comply by driving you bankrupt.
  430. A. Nonymous from CanadaVille, United States writes: Average hourly wages in Canada, as per 2007: [http://www.livingin-canada.com/work-salaries-wages-canada.html]

    Retail Sales / Sales Clerk $11
    Data Entry Clerk $15
    Bookkeeper $16
    Accounting Clerk $17
    Truck Driver $19
    Plumber $22
    Carpenter $22
    Executive Assistant $22
    Electrician $25
    Computer Engineer (not software) $33
    Physiotherapist $34
    Lawyer $36
    Computer and Info Systems Manager $37
    Engineering Manager $45
    Dentist $60

    AUTOWORKER: $57 - $75 [ Or say about 35/Hr]

    So, Autoworkers are at the same wage level as Lawyers, Engineers, and Physiotherapists.

    PROVING we are the HIGHEST SKILLED LABOR, and DEMAND the HIGHEST wages!

    NO CUTBACKS!

    NO CONCESSIONS!

    Let low skilled people like DENTISTS, ENGINEERS take cutbacks, and offer concessions!
  431. Bill Darling from Canada writes: A Nonymous - Lol; except the big difference between most of the occupations you have listed and the autoworkers is that the benefits and pension costs for the autoworkers are over and above the $34/hr, and 100% paid by the company; can't say that for most of the other occupations/professions
  432. jack macarthur from Canada writes: Now that the union is prepared to take deep cuts, what about the CEO's? Why isn't the government demanding huge cuts in the CEO's and Upper Management salary packages?
  433. Andrea Mitchiavelli from Canada writes: Yes, the unionized workers have to take big cuts to wages and benefits if these companies are to survive. Everybody knows that so I do wish the union-bashers just STFU already. It's time to question management on why they proved completely unable to bring to market cars people actually wanted to buy and why they gives themselves such obscene salaries when they are so obviously incompetent.
  434. glop male from US, United States writes: I don't understand why the two levels of Canadian government are so eager to get GM and CAW to "talk" again. Why don't they just sit in tight, relax and wait till the rescue plan "engineered" by Fritz Henderson is laid on the table before the US government. By then, GM may not even exist.
  435. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: jack macarthur from Canada writes:

    "Now that the union is prepared to take deep cuts, what about the CEO's? Why isn't the government demanding huge cuts in the CEO's and Upper Management salary packages?"

    ***

    Don't be silly Jack.

    The workers are to blame for everything.

    When will people realize that?
  436. B, Ont. Canada from Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    “I think you'd strike out if you ever applied for an autoworker's job because you don't appear to have more brains "then" a piece of bark.”
    ______________________________________________________

    Well 3 yrs of college and a 2 yr apprentice, makes me educated bark. I think I would be a little bored in the auto industry. Aircraft is my game.

    But back to the point, as I said it’s all about survival, I know I will be fine.
  437. J Hanner from London, Ontario, Canada writes: What a feffkin diaster of epic proportions.

    And to think that this same outfit was part of the phrase.... "So goes GM.... so goes Amerika".

    Probably going to be more true than anyone wants to admit.

    Good luck USA. You are going to need luck and a whole lot more.
  438. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    B, Ont. Canada from Canada writes:

    "Aircraft is my game."

    ***

    I think you just convinced me to drive to Vancouver.

    It's a first.
  439. B, Ont. Canada from Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna

    You do know to head west, if you drive there.

    Have a good trip.
  440. John Johnson from Canada writes: S Piercey from Canada writes:

    "I'm thinking $20-$40 per hour, plus benefits, might fit the bill?"

    Hello that is what they are currently making, $32 - $34 per hour, plus benefits.

    What gives?
  441. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    I suppose you missed it B, Ont.

    Completely flew over your head as it were.

    You brag about your education as opposed to an autoworker and yet you cannot even communicate in English.

    I am startin to think that autoworkers r more smarter "then" the posters on this here forum.

    In fact, I am sure.
  442. Brian Engler from Richmond, B.C., Canada writes: Hello all,

    It sounds like supply and demand for me . . . to me, rather . . . the demand for cas is so smalll and shrinking that the industry needs to lay off more in order to keep the senior workers employed . . . .

    supply and demand . . . . economics 101 .. . .

    Mr. Harper?

    (no response expected)

    -Brian Leslie Engler
  443. Mr. Habs are the best from Canada writes: Where else can you make $76 an hour by being an uneducated, unskilled hillbilly. A good thing that there are stickers telling them which seat goes in the front and which one goes in the back. Can you imagine, $76 per hour to install wiper blades and nuts on the wheels.
    Ronald Reagan had it right with the air traffic controllers... fire them all and start over.
    Bye Bye idiots, you drove the hand that feeds you into the ground.
  444. John Johnson from Canada writes: Mr. Habs, you are mistaken. None of them are making $76 per hour. You like others fall for the propaganda disseminated on this site. The average line worker makes $32 - $34 per hour plus benefits. The rest of the difference is the current cash funding costs for legacy costs related to retirees and a huge per dollar amount factored in for the current significant overcapacity / underproduction in the industry.
  445. K D from Canada writes: AUTOWORKER: $57 - $75 [ Or say about 35/Hr]

    So, Autoworkers are at the same wage level as Lawyers, Engineers, and Physiotherapists.

    -------------

    You have no idea what you are talking about.
  446. Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes:

    Mr. Habs are the best from Canada writes:

    "Where else can you make $76 an hour by being an uneducated, unskilled hillbilly."

    ***

    I would say by being a lawyer?

    But seriously folks.

    Most of my autoworker friends retired at age 25 by making $76 an hour.

    Where did I go wrong?
  447. K D from Canada writes: How many lots are there throughout Canada and the US that have brand new 08's and 09's sitting there. Well the lot down the street from me, yes it's a GM dealership, there is at least 50, (2008's) if not more sitting in the back and a whack of 2009's sitting on the side lots. Where the hell are they going to put the 2010's.

    -------------

    Newsflash, I drive by an abandoned factory every day jammed with overflow Hondas. All the car lots are full, not just GM.
  448. Bill Darling from Canada writes: Mr Habs & John Johnson - see my post to John Johnson at 6:30p today;
  449. Hee Hoo Sai from Canada writes: Regrettably there are some who know little about hockey and less about automobile manufacture. Mindlessly parroting some gibberish about $76/hr. has nothing to do with the take home pay of assembly line workers. In Alberta you would be hard pressed to find someone to get out of bed that that little. Anyway the CAW can now demonstrate how they would run the business cus they will be in the drivers seat soon. More hard nosed no compromise negotiations with themselves. Be sure to publish the bonus's paid to the unionized managers.
  450. one fiftyeoght from Canada writes: Mr. Ontario Premier and Prime Minister, why the POOR Canadian taxpayers have to subsidize the RICH Autoworkers of Chrylser? Now GM !!!!! WHY WHY WHY? Mr. Premier, did not you say we are too poor so that you have to raise taxes under the 'Harmonized tax'. How much blood we have to bleed to the Autoworker?
  451. John Johnson from Canada writes: Yes, K.D., I think that you have hit the nail on the head! No one is buying anything because there is severely impaired consumer confidence out there. No one wants to commit themselves to a multi-year payment plan if they have reduced uncertainty about their employment situation. This is the heart of the issue, not the D3 versus foreign auto makers. All auto makers are hurting. But listening to some of the drivel on this blog, hardly anyone wants to admit that this is the real issue.
  452. John Johnson from Canada writes: Bill Darling, you must mean 5:30. Btw, pension costs are not planned. I believe that they were negotiated between the two parties. But the D3 was able to convince the governments of the day to let them forego cash funding of these obligations.
  453. Bill Darling from Canada writes: John Johnson - yes, all auto makers are hurting, but only GM & Chrysler are insolvent in NA; GM has been losing money for yrs; probably Chrysler too; in this downturn, they realized they cannot continue status quo, and a total re-organization/re-costing of their
    companies was the only way to survive; most likely through the bankruptcy courts
  454. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: John Johnson from Canada - That's a bit of the problem, here on this side of the border. The MUCH bigger issue is with our US cousins, since 90% of the auto production here is exported south. With tax-deductible mortgage interest in the US, a great many there routinely re-financed their houses (housing prices were always up & up for decades) and used THAT money to buy things like new cars. Now, with the crash in housing prices, many mortgages are underwater. Lots of these people CAN'T refinance because their mortgages are worth more than their houses.
  455. wilson chang from ONTARIO, Canada writes: Hello K. Tankerous; Dodge Challanger production cannot keep up with the demand. It is laughable talking about car sale of GM and Chrysler. They are partically giving their cars away. The more cars they " sell " the more money they lose. The CAW chief says that even if they work for nothing the car companies still will lose money. So who is paying the workers salary. It is the sucker taxpayer. If they stop producing cars for the first three months of this year, lay of all workers and shut the factories down, GM will not have lost 6 billion, maybe just 1 billion.
  456. John Johnson from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd, excellent point too!
  457. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Wilson...we, at the Brampton Assembly plant, are already thirty days behind in production and waiting for parts to come in from the US. Our plant has made a profit in all but two of the last thirty five years. They are already talking about working Saturdays when we return to work to get caught up. Trust me, Chrysler is not losing any money on the Challenger!
  458. Bill Darling from Canada writes: John Johnson - you're right; it was at 5:30p; as for the cost of pensions, any responsible company will plan for future pension payouts by putting aside an appropriate amount of money and using
    accepted 'rate of returns'; the benefits and pensions have been negotiated for years between the D3 and the CAW, and generally have been improved with each contract; the underfunding was a result of an ' trading the future for today ' approach taken during negotiations, and a result of vastly improved benefits and pensions over the last 30 yrs; both sides are complicit
  459. Bah No from Canada writes: My father used to work at GM, and said a lot of those "workers" spent most of the day romancing-the-canine instead of working.
  460. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Lots of people kick the D3 around for building full-size trucks. But they were a big money maker when the US housing boom was rolling. Who buys LOTS of pickups and vans? Housing contractors like electricians, carpenters, plumbers, etc. When folks stopped buying new houses, the contractors that built those houses stopped buying new trucks. The second shot for the truck market - and it came on the heels of the housing mess in the US - is that gasoline prices spiked hard. That factor took-out a lot of the folks who bought trucks just because they liked trucks. Bang-Bang, in the space of a few months about half of the market for full-sized pickups simply vanished. And that was pretty much the only thing that had been keeping the D3 afloat for years. They'd been using truck profits to paper-over the structural cracks in their business model for over a decade. And that brings us to - HERE - which is pretty much the scene of the crash.

    You can make the best vehicles in the world, at the lowest cost - but if your biggest (by far) customer isn't buying because he hasn't got any money, well - you're screwed. And if your business is already a mess, then, well - you're dead. And that's just a hard fact of business.
  461. joe kolo from Canada writes: Thats what I was trying to say KD, there are to many vehicles produced and not enough buyers we don't need D3 anymore
  462. So I Sez from Canada writes: We were told yesterday to expect to work our first week of holidays and seven Saturdays from June 1 . How does a bankrupt company schedule OT.Who is zooming whom? Camaros' and Impalas' are selling like hotcakes. BTW,I was surprised Tony Clement has an MBA and knows the auto industry like the back of his hand.Even after GM and CAW said they were "Quite pleased"with the new contract,it ain't good enough for good ol' Tony.OOPS!!! I just answered my own question.Silly me!!
  463. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'bah no' - I doubt if your father EVER worked at GM a hole. Another 'fairytale' post, quick, sharp, and total BS !! I worked at GM for over 30 yrs - no slackers that I knew of. WE ALL took the time we had coming to us, but IF YOU, a hole, want to prove your statement - get your old man on here, and name plants, places, depts. people, who romanced the canines, whatever. WHAT A LOAD OF SHT !! Post sh*t and pass it off as truth. IF your old man worked at GM, just MAYBE what he told you seemed like d-f*g to you, but I doubt it. We were a tight knit lot and we worked our asses off so YOU can stick it where the son don''t shine, f-ing liar !!
  464. Brian G from Canada writes: Do not resuscitate. This is an American company, not a Canadian one, do not pour my tax money into it. After they get the money they will close their Canadian factories. If it is still necessary to flush money down the toilet, build a Canadian electric car company.
  465. J S from Canada writes: Thanks for the weekly reminder. I don't know what I would've done without it.
  466. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'so I sez' - HOW TRUE - and the a holes on here have NO idea what's up. They're flying off the line in Oshawa - the BEST production plant in the world in EVERY aspect and it's been proven over and over. Not one car company or even GM facility anywhere can touch it !! The Americanos cannot afford to NOT produce in Oshawa once the meltdown subsides and recovery begins. Clement is an a hole(harpoon's lackie, stating ONLY what his boss tells him) and McGuinty's NOT going down the road he was going before. Something's up and it's back room bully politics. They're ALL full of sh*t !! First the CEO of GM Detroit 'HAILS' the contract with the CAW-GM and then turns a '180' and retracts everything he's said- f-ing puppet and paid a buck a yr would be too much compensation for the a hole !! This a hole Marchionne from Torino, Italy, pulling the strings at Chrysler, Toronto born, took Fiat into 8 Billion of losses, asked his workers there for NOTHING(Italian gov't bailed them out lock stock and barrel and not a dime from the workers) and then comes over here wanting the CAW to lose the farm - peace of sh*t ! Fiat build the WORST cars in Europe - #28 out of 28 and HEs calling the shots !! You've got to be kidding me !!
  467. Glenn M from Houston, United States writes: All read Sweeny Todd @ 6:18 !! Fresh perspective and great comments re: the alienation of the CAW vs the rest of the real world (East, West, and Central Canada). Bob W and Buzz H's open, public arrogance and self-rightousness over the yrs has ignited the comments by so many over the past few days. Sadly, the CAW membership elected narrow minded people like this to lead them because they could not differentiate between strength and being smart. Since they chose strength, they allowed themselves to be led into hard times again and again. They should have chosen viability over instant gratification (cash & ego). Despite the anti-"CAW" comments, I believe that most of the posters over the few days are sympathetic towards what the autoworkers and their families ( I am) are facing over the long term. At the same time these posters are allowed to be pissed at the CAW culture of "eliteness" and "entitlement", and are only voicing their anger against the disrespect shown by this Union's leadership towards those who neither need, or want, to buy into their ideologue. Lastly, it is not the responsibility of Govt, via the average Cdn taxpayer, to fix what is clearly the failure of D3 mgmt and the CAW(yup, you played a very big role). The X$ / hr wages is not the issue - it's the compartmentalized and confrontational work environment that evolved over the yrs. The CAW is now reaping what it sowed and it's unfair for them to expect the average Cdn to reach down and pull you out of the gutter again - especially when bankruptcy is imminent. Good luck. The party's over, turn out the lights and move on
  468. DON BARTA from Canada writes: -

    - WOW, the Big Shots must be laughing all the way to the bank.

    - Thru BS, Bafflegab and a supportive media the Big Shots have most of the great unwashed fighting among themselves.

    - If sameone has better benifits and wages, you are supposed to bring yours up NOT bring others down.

    - Envy and Jealousy is sometimes a sign of a lack of Self-esteem.

    - I hope you people don't vote......

    ~
  469. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: John Johnson from Canada writes: "Edwin Lee, employees do not receive legacy costs upon retirement. They receive pensions and other post-retirement benefits such as health care. Legacy costs are the current CASH costs funded by the employer to pay for these benefits for employees now retired off"

    They are funded by employer for retirees but not counted as autoworkers earnings. Retirees, before retirement, did not earn this legacy costs, same as you.

    When you did not earn this costs, they can be taken away. You would agree that you will not have these benefits when you retire off, since you did not earn them during your employment.
  470. Glenn M from Houston, United States writes: Don Barta - When you build something, it needs to be sustainable. Realistically, the CAW collective agreement(s) was never that. At the end of the day, it was held up for public ridicule and simply collapsed. No one dragged it down.

    ps- what bigshots are laughing all the way to the bank? Bankruptcy is failure for everyone. I have not seen or heard anything re: salaried or executive compensation. Have you? If so, pls share.
  471. backward country from Canada writes: Why does most CAW workers looks like fat goons ?!?

    GM, CHRYSLER ARE LOSERS! DO NOT WASTER NO MORE OF OUR TAXPAYERS MONEY INTO THEM ESPECIALLY THE CAW GOONS!
  472. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: Andrea Mitchiavelli from Canada writes: "It's time to question management on why they proved completely unable to bring to market cars people actually wanted to buy and why they gives themselves such obscene salaries when they are so obviously incompetent. "

    The nature and obvious way to punish a failed business is to go bankrupt. When cars are still in demand, new business will fill the void, with new management.

    Problem is not fix by providing bailout. The same team that failed the company is still incompetent and will kill the company again.
  473. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: DON BARTA from Canada writes: -"- If sameone has better benifits and wages, you are supposed to bring yours up NOT bring others down."

    Yes, autoworkers has better benefits and wages than average canadians. They supposed to bring average canadians' wages up, not DOWN.

    In fact, autoworkers are bring average canadians' wages down by making them pay.
  474. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: So I Sez from Canada writes: We were told yesterday to expect to work our first week of holidays and seven Saturdays from June 1 . How does a bankrupt company schedule OT?

    A bankrupt company, with taxpayer's subsidy, can schedule anything. It can even pay bonus to management.
  475. So I Sez from Canada writes: I have a funny feeling the worm is about to turn.Every person I talked to tonight were in a different frame of mind (read very ugly and nasty)from when this give-back crap started.From the outset,everyone was solidly onboard to help save GM.Then the BS started,but we were still commited.After the Tony Clement statement today all bets are off.Now that autoworkers are convinced not only they,but every person in North America is being had,it won't surprise me in the least if they vote solidly"NO" and get ready to go to war with both the corporations and especially the governments.Clement and the boys may have poked thejunkyard dogs with a stick once too often!
  476. John Johnson from Canada writes: Edwin Lee, it's impossible to have a well reasoned discussion with you. You do not seem to understand that there is a double count in your $76 / hour amount. Legacy costs are for RETIREES (which is a big portion of your $76 amount)! Current benefits (a component of which is retirement costs for current workers) are included in the current on-the-line workers benefit hourly amount. Don't you see that you are counting benefit costs twice, once for the current worker and a second time for the cash cost of funding the retirees current pension payout. Your arguments are not logical and make NO sense! Go back to school to learn how to reason in our culture here.
  477. Brian Engler from Richmond, B.C., Canada writes: Hello all;

    that really was not a rhetorical question (Philososphy 101): (and remembering economics 101 like Mr. Harper pre-emininently does - given his famous degree - )

    Have any of you heard of "the Philosopher's Stone" by myself?

    -Brian Leslie Engler
  478. Edwin Lee from Canada writes: John Johnson from Canada writes: Legacy costs are for RETIREES (which is a big portion of your $76 amount)! Current benefits (a component of which is retirement costs for current workers) are included in the current on-the-line workers benefit hourly amount.

    I don't argue on whether legacy costs should be your earnings. I am saying that you cannot get both:
    1. If legacy costs included as earning, you are entitled to them after retirement.
    2. If legacy costs are not your earning, you are not entitled to them after retirement.

    Jim Stanford, CAW economist, choose No. 1.
  479. John Johnson from Canada writes: Edwin Lee, you still are not making sense! Your $76 / hour amount includes the cost of current employees, their post-retirement benefits PLUS THE BENEFITS OF RETIREES LONG RETIRED OFF!

    Your argument about you cannot get both makes NO SENSE! Of course you cannot get both (which is what I have said all along). The current employee on the line gets his pension and the now retired worker gets his pension, but your $76 / hr figure includes the cost for two (or more) different employees. YET YOU TELL EVERYBODY IT'S ONE EMPLOYEE GETTING THAT AMOUNT!

    The issue has nothing to do with entitlement or no entitlement. The employee is going to get what was agreed to through collective bargaining.
  480. John Johnson from Canada writes: Edwin, by the way, I would also like some fries with my entree!
  481. Mo Abdelmalek from London, CAN, Canada writes: I think all this auto industry needs is unions with rationality or no unions at all - let the free market be the union. Those incompetent auto workers which have the least of academic credibility need to stop whining and achieve more to deserve the hourly $76 they greedly acquire.
  482. J. Michael from Canada writes: Kan Tankerous from Tronna, Canada writes: "But, come on, the American consumer cannot get a loan to lease or buy.

    It has nothing to do with the auto industry.

    Be real."

    Exactly, so why is the government pumping loads of money into the auto industry? Would it not make more sense to focus on the problem? As you say; "consumer cannot get a loan to lease or buy." Maybe government backed guarantees here would make more sense. Instead we are propping up an industry with billions of dollars to make cars that consumers can not buy, nor need to buy in my mind partly due to the glut.

    Or what about these kind of headlines that were around about 5 years ago in the China Daily:

    "GM plans to double car production in China

    Leading global automaker General Motors (GM) yesterday unveiled plans to more than double its production capacity in China over the next three years."
  483. Jaded in Vancouver from Canada writes: To Ken Lewenza, CAW union, et al - time for y'all to just grow up. You've outgrown your purpose. As a taxpayer who makes a decent living, well below your unionised workers' demands, I don't owe you a damned thing. If you all find yourselves on the street, so be it - you'll do well in the gutter.
  484. David Lorne from White Rock, Canada writes:
    GM ceased being a Car Maker long ago. It now exists as a Pension and Benefits Pool for former and current employees, about a 80/20 split. This pretty much says it all: for every 20 who show up for work, another 80 are on pension. Not a model for survival, I'd say.
  485. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: To Jaded in Vancouver...seems you're a little upset that the Canucks lost in overtime...thats ok, we'll take the blame for that too! It was the unions fault! I'll be sure to tell my two kids (ages 6&9) and my wife (who is a layed off auto worker) that we deserve to be on the street. You inconsiderate fool!
  486. Rob Latimer from Oshawa, Canada writes: Mo Abdelmalek writes: I think all this auto industry needs is unions with rationality or no unions at all - let the free market be the union. Those incompetent auto workers which have the least of academic credibility need to stop whining and achieve more to deserve the hourly $76 they greedly acquire.
    ================================================= Get with the program Mo! Unionized Canadian auto workers are 10% more productive than non unionized auto workers. I think most of the whining is coming from people like you, not us! Our wages are the same as those at Toyota! We make $33.85/hr, not $76/hr. I have never been on strike and have not forced the company to do anything they did not agree to through negotiations. Btw, I have a college education as do most of the auto workers I work with.
  487. ACA Ont-Canada from Canada writes: Got to agree with most on this wage issue, and as B, Ont said its coming down to survival, with both sides of this unless new talks are not put in place to lower wages. I do have trouble with the pension issue as well, being one of a majority in Canada that has to mainly look after my own; my guts turns when my tax dollars are used to prop up a fund that is an agreement with the CAW and the company. With us tax payers never very seeing the return of the loans to the auto industry, kind of a short change we get with that also. So just maybe the Unions slush fund should have to pick it up. I would now think that thee new era of what unions are going to be left with in this latest event is a last grasp attempt at power that they once had. The choice they may have when the auto industry fails is maybe to start with Toyota and when Kia comes to Canada move in and try their luck there. The power the UAW and CAW had is demised to a point also of reconstructing.How can you stay in power, if there is no possible way to keep wages up and as Union heads have said have the upper hand? No one in the companies or unions has that anymore; The 70s and 80s are gone, alone with the upper hand to all involved has changed. I wish the auto industry luck, but not much hope for some years to come.
  488. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'ACA' - ANOTHER ILL-INFORMED POSTER GUESSING WHERE THE PROBLEM IS AND WHERE OUR PENSION MONEY COMES FROM !! Gawdalmighty, it makes me sick to hear the drivel coming from such people. NOW LISTEN UP AND GET 'EDUMICATED' !! OUR PENSIONS COME EXCLUSIVELY FROM OUR PENSION FUND-PERIOD !! Although the 'fund' is underfunded thanks to the Ontario gov't allowing GM to do so and NOT reversing GMs opt-out rights to do so(could NOT be 'bargained back' by the CAW as it was LEGISLATION - PEOPLE HEAR ME !!).The CAW tried and tried in BOOM times - Mike Harris-NO !! Ernie Eves-NO !! Dalton McGuinty-NO!! A holes !! NOT ONE THIN DIME COMES FROM THE TAXPAYER(AND THAT INCUDES US, OF WHICH THE CAW ACTIVE AND RETIRED PAY $2.2BILLION IN TAXES EACH YEAR - the total of the D3 in Canada). Now 'stick it where the sun don't shine' about our pensions, PLEASE !! It's OUR money and NOT ONE source, be it the taxpayers, creditors, NO ONE can touch the fund by law, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS !! If the doggone fund was properly funded, us retirees wouldn't have a problem collecting our due pensions basically for life if GM went under(we would lose our benefit package) and 'life' is what we're entitled to. Our pension plan is called a 'deferred wages' plan in the true sense, as GM has put into our fund over the years monies that would have been in our paycheques had the fund NOT existed. The 'fund' is for ALL and NOT for the ONE. NO hourly-rated GM employee is entitled to ONE DIME of that fund if they don't qualify for a pension !! THERE IS NO 'VESTING' as in 'defined contributory' plans. BTW - 'ACA' - to be kind to you and I'm NOT inclined to be to the ill-informed dummies who come on here spouting platitudes about things they know nothing of, but THERE IS "NO" 'SLUSH FUND' AS YOU REFER TO IT AND "NEVER" HAS BEEN AND IT'S "ILLEGAL" FOR ANY UNION TO HAVE ONE EXCEPT FOR PURPOSES OF OPERATIONS COSTS-END OF STORY !! Get it right or get off these threads.It sickens me-GMer 45 yrs.
  489. David Lorne from White Rock, Canada writes: Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'ACA' - ANOTHER ILL-INFORMED POSTER GUESSING WHERE THE PROBLEM IS AND WHERE OUR PENSION MONEY COMES FROM !!

    ===================================================
    Mark, where do you think your Defined Benefit Plan receives its funding from? If (or when) it becomes insolvent and the contributors have become bankrupy, will the CAW kick in additional funding?
  490. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'david lorne' - The fund will last some time, even though it's underfunded. Your post is typically mean-spirited. Just take the facts I've given you and live with it. The Ontario govt's of the past 15 yrs. f-d up, royally and it's NO fault of ours.
    Until WE "EVER" get a dime for our pensions(does NOT include the 'guaranteed' $1000 per month in the OPBG fund that McGuinty has most likely illegally refused to consider for GMers in the event of a GM failure), THEN you can complain, but until then, DON'T come on here with your pathetic CRAP rhetoric and mean-spirited posts that stink of the wish for our demise. A pox on your house sir and may you rot in hell with the rest of the CRAPers in Canada and the republicans in the USA !!

    Your lot are the scum of the earth, such as 'chapter 11'. You have no shame nor decency and no doubt are JUST as greedy as the rest of the a holes on these threads who villify us.
  491. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'david lorne' - In a CCAA bankruptcy in Canada, assuming GM survives in the USA(and it will if Obama keeps his word,, and he will), the CAW continues to exist at GM in FULL force as before WITH THE EXISTING BARGAINED CONTRACT INTACT !!(BY LAW !!). ONLY the 2 parties involved(GM and the CAW) can change it in any way. Obviously it's about to happen as we type and the Chrysler 'factor' will prevail and Lewenza said that a couple of weeks ago when the Chrysler deal was done. IT'S NOT NEWS MR. LORNE !! Keep up or shut up !! In such a restructured bankruptcy, the company continues business as usual with the protection of the CCAA, it has ACTIVE workers and THEY create the funds which go into the pension fund. It's as simple as that. There are NO 'contributors', per se. They WILL NOT 'dry up' as its the workers who make the contributions due to the nature of 'deferred wages' that is considered to be a 'defined benefit' pension plan. GM pays that amount into the plan based on a formula LONG determined, except for the fact that GM now HAS to be properly legislated to put MORE into the plan for the sake of its solvency. Even THAT can be bargained by the 2 parties - e.g. GM puts in (X) $s more per employee and the employees through a bargained scenario are required to contribute (Y) $s to support the plan, which one day they just may benefit from(one scenario), but as long a GM stateside survives, your 'wet dream' will NEVER come true. That YOU would wish upon ME(45yrs UAW-CAW-GMer) a loss of ALL I've worked for and deserve makes you WORSE than scum, as I take it personally. Canadian you're not.WE don't think like that. If GM survives and goes on to profitability, hopefully the Ontario gov't will rightfully relent and remove GMs legislated right to underfund our pension plan and THEN everything will be as it should be, in spite of your assinine post(s). My previous remarks stand. People like your ARE scum to wish such an 'armageddon' scenario on your fellow citizens.
  492. David Lorne from White Rock, Canada writes: Mark Baigrie, I understand your frustration, possible anger and I sympathise with you to some extent. The facts remain pretty clear, and articulating them in this forum is not mean spirited. That your pension is underfunded or not, is not my fault. I will buy another GM vehicle when and if GM makes one that competes favourably with the other choices I have. I'm sure others feel the same way. There is no need for your insults and it detracts from your position.
  493. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'david lorne' - WRONG AGAIN !! MY pension is NOT underfunded. I STILL get what I'm entitled to under the contract(CAW-GM) !! THATs one of the misinformed, can't be bothered to find out the truth types of things that make us CAWers go nuts !! NOT ONE DIME OF IT COMES FROM THE TAXPAYER(S) OF WHICH THE CAWers IN CANADA(ACTIVE AND RETIRED) PAY $2.2BILLION IN TAXES EVERY YEAR !! If you people out there who CLAIM to NOT have an 'agenda' against EVERYTHING the CAW and the D3 stand for, THEN ASK US "PROS" WHO'VE BEEN THERE LIKE MYSELF FOR 45 YEARS EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING AND WE WOULD BE "GLAD" TO INFORM YOU "ALL" !! Otherwise your posts attempt to hide this inane hatred of our union and unions generally and you are jealous of what we have worked hard for. REMEMBER - When the (d)depression is over with AND we prosper, the loans WILL be paid !! The jobs will be secure(although not as many). Canada will prosper with the D3 as it has for many decades and I've been a part of that for 4 1/2 of them. All that matters to the TRUE Canadian should be the prosperity of ALL of us and to 'cherry pick' the autoworkers is a disgrace to the nth magnitude. Please pick on the idiots who caused the meltdown - THEY ARE STILL LOADED WITH MONEY DUE TO TO THE TARP PROGRAM IN THE USA (and no doubt the PANDERING to big businessess and banks and big oil(check out the price of gas with oil at only $57USD per bbl - disgrace - gouging by big oil and harpoon does nothing !!) by our inept CRAP gov't !! 95 cents a litre in Toronto and probably more elsewhere - big oil gone nuts again and where the hell is our fed. gov't - oh yeah, senior moment - harpoon's and Albertan - NEXT QUESTION !!?? LOL
  494. David Lorne from White Rock, Canada writes: Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'david lorne' - MY pension is NOT underfunded......
    =================================================
    Mark, Your anger is misplaced. I didn't say it was underfunded, and I'm pleased that you will continue to enjoy receiving monthly benefits for the rest of your life and then your beneficiary (if applicable) will as well to the extent of the entitlement (assuming that the pension plan is indeed able to fulfill this commitment, of course). TARP funds are an indication of insolvency, and since these funds were not a gift from taxpayers, should be repaid. I'm saying that GM's current business model is not sustainable. I don't care who you blame it on, but GM does not have a viable business.
  495. A Calgarian from Canada writes: Our own Finance Minister (Federal) even said the other day there is a low probability that the loan to Chrysler will ever be repaid, need we say more? Mark M.?
  496. Mark Baigrie from Toronto, Canada writes: 'calgarian' - The leprechaun only says what his idiotic 'master' tells him to - harpoon - ANOTHER ALBERTAN - Need I say more - 'calgarian'' LOL !!

    harpoon has NO idea whether that will happen or not. He's just playing his idiotic CRAP idealogy well-taken from Adolph Hitler - say it enough times and people will start believing it !! Hitler gave orders to Goebbels, his 'reichsfuhrer' of porpaganda to do just that and OH BOY did it work on those dumbass 'krauts' back then !!
  497. A Calgarian from Canada writes: Mark Baigrie, what's your take on the Keswick High School bullying situation?
  498. Ghetto Dude from The Curse of Detroit, Canada writes: The first comment wins the best prediction award.
  499. A Calgarian from Canada writes: Mark Baigrie, haven't heard from you for a while.

    Taking a long afternoon nap like you used to when you were at GM?
  500. A Calgarian from Canada writes: I think Mark Baigrie finally came to his senses.

    Good boy, Good boy ... Mark.

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