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Earlier discussion

Panel debates God and O Canada

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 8:35 PM EST 08/07/08

Panel opines on the inclusion of the deity in our national anthem. ...Read the full article

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  1. that guy from Canada writes: Nobody's saying Christ keep our land. or Allah keep our land, or Vishnu or confusious, or anyone else. let each member of the spectrum of Canadians of variosu origins insert in their minds their own belief or identifier if they wish. The rest, well, if you don't believe in god, stick your own name in there and then proceed to pick up a bottle from the street and recycle it, keeping our country at least, then, a little bit glorious, and Free of litter.

    why the reference to a generic 'god' in our national anthem is is even a point of debate is beyond me.
  2. Kev Jack from United States writes: Start removing God and your country will go down hill quickly!
  3. Steve McCullough from Orangeville, Canada writes: What is wrong with having God in our national anthem?! I am sick and tired of hearing arguments which are slowly doing away with God. God is the creator and where all laws and morality came from. Where does everybody think everything started from? As for those who want to replace mentioning God, go back in your closet and stay there. Thanks to gutless politicians like Chretien and Martin who chose to hide behind the garbage Charter of Rights and Freedoms, we now have a very amoral socieity. As for those who may attack my remarks, at least I have God in my corner, who do you have? Don't tell me God either! If you think that, you really have Satan disguised as God.
  4. Henry Wysmulek from Winnipeg, writes: Except to a meglomaniac atheist who usually think they are God's gift to Mankind, the word God refers to Humanity's Creature. How is it offensive to thank our Creater for all the blessings in our lives?
  5. Neon Cab from Canada writes: Even if Canada is multicultural and has a diversity of faiths, is it not still predominantly Christian when all sects are included? What then is wrong with including a religious line in our anthem that is appropriate for the faith of the majority of Canadians? Do immigrants not realise that they are coming to predominantly Christian country when they come (or came) here?
    Plus, some countries' flags have crosses or cresents, or (including ours) have colours that can be tied back to a history intertwined with religion. If we change the anthem to eliminate religion, what's next? Our red and white is derived from English and French heraldry, which was ultimately influenced by the Crusaders' heraldry a looooong time ago. Do we need new national colours, too?
  6. Age Quod Agis from Toronto, Canada writes: I once read somewhere that the push to reject God from the public square was characteristic of the totalitarian regimes in the twentieth century. Are people who oppose the use of God in our national anthem - whoever those unnamed people are (no public figure has done so, so I wonder in what sense this is actually a real 'public debate') - unwittingly taking us down the same path? Connecting debates in Canadian public life with totalitarian ideology sounds like a bit of a non sequitur, but I wonder what the panelists think.
  7. The Maestro from Canada writes: Sheema Khan, whose columns I often read with interest, has put forward a very hypocritical argument.

    It's ok to make reference to God unless it offends her sensibilities as a muslim. She interprets 'because you can carry a sword you can carry a cross' as a reference to the crusades. I don't think that is how it was intended. I think it means that if you can fight, you can carry on God's peaceful work.

    But just as she sees badness in something others see as innocuous, can she not understand that an atheist or anti-theist would consider any reference to a deity to be non-benign?
  8. Vlad Marinkovic from Toronto, Canada writes: What is a God? I know that all Canadians do not have/know/believe in one, and those that do do not worship the same one. Why should we glorify it or ask for it's help in our national anthem?

    I content we are all atheists - I just believe in one less god than most people.
  9. Glen T from Winnipeg, Canada writes: That last essay by the non-theist is a joke. Ramblings of someone who cannot defend their position.

    When we remove God from the anthem, let's insert special reference to the state-blessed drug zone in BC so we can celebrate our tolerant Canadianisms. I'm sure there a few other 'great' things we can sing about too.
  10. Vincent Clement from Formerly From Toronto, Canada writes: Yawn. We don't have more important things to worry about?
  11. Pete G from Toronto, Canada writes: I am in favour of removing 'god' from the national anthem. If you believe in a god, that's your business. Pray and chant and worship all you want - on your own time on your own turf at home (that goes for Christians as well). I am proud of this country and will fight and die for it. God, however, has nothing to do with it.

    As for statements like this:

    'Except to a meglomaniac atheist who usually think they are God's gift to Mankind'

    'I once read somewhere that the push to reject God from the public square was characteristic of the totalitarian regimes in the twentieth century.'

    Oh, STOP it. Well, I 'read somewhere' that uber-religious freaks have slaughtered and oppressed legions of people in the name of their fictional 'god' or 'creator'.

    Besides, the updated version of 'Maple Leaf Forever' makes for a much better anthem.
  12. Damien Lee from Peterborough, Canada writes: Removing wording about religion in our national anthem makes sense due to our increasingly multicultural society, but what removing sexist wording as well? 'All our sons' command'...

    I'd say if we overhaul it at all, we might as well take care of all business at once, and remove the sexism as well as religious wording.
  13. David K from Guelph, Canada writes: I suppose in order not to offend anybody we should just hum along to a suitably bland tune or maybe say nothing at all. But then I think I might find all that blandness offensive. OTOH we could have words like the French have in La Marseillaise. Now that is an ANTHEM (bit bloodthirsty though).
  14. Luke Powell from Vancouver, Canada writes: As an atheist, I really couldn't care less about semantics like this. If this is what it takes to appease theists, then fine, they can have a couple of words.

    The only time I will ever complain about religion is when it begins to detrementally affect public policy or directly or indirectly threaten the health and safety of individuals. There are enough of those situations that it renders the fighting of ultimately pointless battles like this one a waste of time.
  15. Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: Multi cultural? The United State of America is about as ethnic as you can get; they welcomed Europeans, etc. They get along quite nicely with God, and so do I. Do like Mcg...ty, cut of your nose spite your face and do a turn around on the Lords Prayer? Canada ...changed in the past 45 years, for the worse. God was out of the National song for a time; in those past 45 years then reintroduced. I believe in God; as a Catholic, I believe in a Triune God. You believe in what you want, call upon whatever or whoever you wish, when you need support. If you are a special person who needs no God; fine with me. If you wish to be like Hilter who wanted to exterminate parts of histroy and religion, go to it. That is not me though. I am a Catholic or Christian, but I am not stupid. Even if eliminated from the National song, God will always be words I mouth. You mouth want ever you want, and may God bless you in doing want ever you personally wish. For that is exactly what happens, by the grace of God go I. All blessing come from God. You want lack of freedom? Then expose 'no God'; you want to be Blessed, then get 'God' in your life. Have a good Canada Day!
  16. david waye from Halifax, Canada writes: One can still love his or her Country without believing in God. This is a debate that has no winners. Do I care that The word God in in My National Anthem? No. Does it make me a hipacrit every time I sing My Anthem and have to say the word God? I am 7 or 8 Generations Canadian and I have decided on my own about 20 years ago, that I do not thing there is a God. However, if one wishes to believe in a God, that is their right.. Is it important to them that the word God be in The Anthem? If so leave it in.. It does not bother me one way or the other.
    What is the big deal. I WILL STILL SING TO MY COUNTRY AND BE A PROUD CANADIAN.
  17. J. D. from Canada writes: As someone who makes their living by protecting Canadian heritage, I am aware that it would be foolish to 'change' one word in a song with a long and glorious history -- like putting spectacles on the sphinx, to coin a phrase.

    I'd prefer if 'The Maple Leaf Forever' were our national anthem, but I'm willing to deal.

    As an atheist, however, I am angered whenever I think of the bizarre 'Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law' preamble to the Charter.

    I am angered because this is not an historical document -- it is a living and breathing incarnation of everything we supposedly believe about the nature of our country -- and because Canada is and ought to be a secular state.

    Canada was founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of beaver felt, and nothing else.

    I am happy to sing my little heart out on Canada Day, for, you know, old times' sake, but I will never accept any 'supremacy of God' talk from my government.
  18. Rick C from Canada writes: I don't believe in God; so clearly I think the notion that it is him/her/it keeping our land glorious and free is quite ridiculous.

    However I don't have a problem with leaving the word God in our anthem. Those are the words; it really doesn't offend my beliefs. God is generic term that covers multiple denominations and religions.

    Mountain out of a mole hill in my opinion.
  19. Mike Jackson from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Clearly not.
  20. Rick C from Canada writes: Henry Wysmulek from Winnipeg, writes: 'Except to a meglomaniac atheist who usually think they are God's gift to Mankind, the word God refers to Humanity's Creature. How is it offensive to thank our Creater for all the blessings in our lives?'

    Henry you assume there is a creator to thank. That is an opinion; not fact.
  21. Alan S from Calgary, Canada writes: Post 1, 'that guy from Canada writes: Nobody's saying Christ ' Could not say it better, yes, keep God in our land. GOD, is Allah, Jesus, Jehovah, the First Nation Great White, Spirit and the many other names used for God, lets not forget that the God of the Jews, Christians and Muslims is the same God, that’s why I can not understand the conflict, as it is just about interpretation and original culture, Jesus is the main point of difference. To those who profess to be atheists your God is the Government (Socialist/Liberal etc) and other none religion based rules for life.
  22. Ace Frehley from Vancouver, Canada writes: Age Quod Agis from Toronto, Canada writes: 'I once read somewhere that the push to reject God from the public square was characteristic of the totalitarian regimes in the twentieth century.'

    Wow. That's some authority you provide. Where can I pick up this 'somewhere' book?

    Of course, what you are inviting the reader of your comment to do is to equate modern secularism with brutality. Nice try, but you are failing to examine the difference in the motivations and the goals between the totalitarian regime and the democratic secularist.

    Totalitarian regimes often do try to quell religion because they fear having a population that would answer to a power higher than the totalitarian regime itself. They deter public religious expression in the hopes of quelling private religious expression as well.

    Democratic secularists, on the other hand, believe that people should be free to practice or not to practice their religions as they see fit. However, the only way to ensure that freedom is to ensure that public institutions are, to the extent possible, free of religious symbolism and ceremony, lest the government end up favouring either one religion over another, or favouring the practice of religion / spirituality over abstention.

    Those who decry secularism are, in my experience, almost universally Christian. Most Christian sects are, to some extent, evangelical (i.e. they want to spread the gospel). So what they are really fighting for is the right to once again use the machinery of the state to spread the gospel. And boy, do they ever get sore when you stand in the way of THAT sacred project.
  23. Richard McAllister from Abbotsford, Canada writes: I have been raised to believe that if an individual turns their back on God, then God will turn his back on them.
    God is a jealous God and will not tolerate the worship of false Gods.
    This country was founded, and established on the Judeo / Christian belief system, this is our firm foundation.
    God is compassionate but his compassion only goes so far and the question that we should ask ourselves as a society is how far have we pushed God.
  24. Neil Hughes from Athens, GA, United States writes: I haven't lived in Canada since 1984, and became a dual citizen of the US in 2005, but I admit I was dismayed when I heard the anthem had been changed to include the contested line. God, if s/he exists, isn't going to keep Canada free--that's up to us. And even if s/he has a hand in it, is it right for us to exhort him/her in the imperative? (I guess there's an implied 'please' between 'God' and 'keep?')

    When I sing the anthem--as I had joyous occasion to do at a concert of the Edmonton Symphony last September--I sing the old, God-free version (the one that supposedly had too many we-stand-on-guards in it), and do so proudly. God may smite Canada for abandoning our poor and our principles, but I don't think s/he cares one whit about the anthem.
  25. C. B. from Canada writes: If this goes into a public debate, this is going to be complicated further by the fact that Canada does not have one but two national anthems, due to the fact that neither the french nor the english text is either a translation nor an adaptation of the other; the two texts are totally unrelated. Such a debate may easily put a wedge through the two solitudes.
  26. perry nerantiz from dc suburbs, United States writes: Do not tolerate the intolerable!
  27. Plain Jane from Toronto, Canada writes: I refuse to sing the national anthem. I do not want to impose my religion on anyone else, nor do I want theirs imposed on me. Religion is a personal thing, and has no place in anything directly related to the affairs of the state. I hope that eventually we'll remove the reference to 'god' from the national anthem -- we don't need it.
  28. King's Knight from Canada writes: First Dalton McGuinty had to fiddle with The Lord's Prayer,
    now some luminary decides to review the content of our
    national anthem. Another bright light, Kim Campbell proposed
    ditching the present anthem in favour of something else because this one wasn't snappy enough.(Probably to be composed like the CBC's song search for the anthem their corporate bean counters felt wasn't worth saving!)

    For those 'offended' or 'uncomfortable' with our anthem,
    don't bother singing it, for that matter, just leave the country.
    Somehow, this land look pretty good from distance pastures,
    now the splicing bar, razor and tape come out to do the politically
    correct editing.

    God, keep our land glorious and free.
  29. Chrystal Ocean from Duncan, Canada writes: No surprise, is there, that 'globeandmail.com has invited our regular panel from SEVERAL major faith-based communities and [ONE] representative of the atheist/humanist/free thinker groups.'

    At least one in four people in Canada is non-religious, yet the G&M sees fit to have us represented by one in five of its panel.

    Of further irony is that most media will give both sides of an argument on a given issue equal time even when one side represents a minuscule percentage of those experts holding to that view - the pro and anti sides on global warming is one example. More importantly, minority issues are typically (and rightly) given equal treatment. Strange, then, that the non-religious, are not accorded the same treatment.

    As to the question... Yes, all references to a deity should be removed from our national anthem.
  30. Geriatric Personage from St. Stephen, Canada writes: Just replace God with god. Problem solved!
  31. Jennifer Filipowicz from Burlington, Canada writes: I have always sung 'O Canada' instead of 'God keep our land' and 'All of us' instead of 'All thy sons'. It just made me feel uncomfortable to be belting out 'God keep our land!' when I don't believe in any sort of deity.
  32. Peter Dawson from Halifax, Canada writes: I remember when the words of O Canada were changed to include a reference to God, and I remember thinking, 'that's going to annoy the atheists' - but, indeed, the French version has always been not only religious, but Christian. Perhaps we need to consider changing that first? However, I would argue that as long as our Constitution begins by recognizing the 'supremacy of God and the Rule of Law', the national anthem (English version anyway) is just fine. The debate, if any, should focus on the Constitution, which is a legal document, not the symbolic and emotive words of the National Anthem, which should be based on what our country legally is or isn't. I am not sure about the argument that the National Anthem has no regard for our First Nations. It has been translated into several (but probably not all) First Nations languages - the 'official' versions are only 'official' because they are in our two 'official' languages. Again, if we need more official languages, we need to open a debate about the Official Languages Act and the Constitution, not the National Anthem. I am afraid that the only debate I can see about our National Anthem is whether the English and French lyrics should be quite so different, and I would certainly argue that the English ones are more suited to a modern multicultural society than the French, perhaps for good historical reasons. The question of whether the lyrics should be the choice of the respective language community or of the people of Canada as a whole is a can of worms that I have perhaps opened, but am not going to put my hand into.
  33. dar cullihall from Rocky Harbour, Canada writes: Would Mr. Wysmulek explain to me why 'god' would 'bless' this country, Canada, and the people in it while allowing thousands to drown in a tsunami and thousands more to die in earthquakes in other lands? And the multi-millionaires who play baseball and other sports are always thanking God for their team's 'blessings'. Imagine: Mr. Wysmulek's 'god' is 'blessing' Vernon Wells, for example, while ignoring the thousands who are victims of disasters. Some 'god' I say. He needs a lesson in fairness and equality if you ask me. Of course 'he' doesn't even exist, so the debate is rather foolish to begin with.
  34. David Demner from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: 'that guy' why not debate it. It's called 'change' and perhaps even 'progress' eventually. 'Kev Jack' personally I want someone more grounded on reality. George Bush is a wonderful case in point... 'Steve McCullough' um.. yeah... Nutcase. 'Henry Wysmulek' I suppose historically priests have been really humble with no 'God complex'? But you're right, it's offensive only to people who can think independantly 'Neon Cab' good points and thanks for adding constructively to the discussion 'Age Quod Agis' maybe you should read more (perhaps start with the article which mentions the public figure Svend Robinson). Speaking of unnamed, what's yours? As usual in these panels I agree most with Justin and I wish it were as easy as waving your magic wand and having a new 'song'. I'd like to see a specific rebuttle not some fluff about 'god is great', but maybe that's too much to hope for from the religious crowd. 'Too much effort' is a valid response and I think I fall in that category. The rest of the panelists I can often see some lucidity although here are a few gems ('admits of infinite — well not quite Infinite' I love that line! 'God as hostage to political whim is a fearful reality': how god got in the song in the first place. 'separation of church and state is an American invention' riiiiight. 'God to sustain and protect this land' just like god gives the Americans a right to destroy us when they want our oil and/or water). Nice job as usual
  35. Stani Veselinovic from Hornby Island, Canada writes: When all the politicians fail, and all the deplomat's effords are in vain, if our army can no longer keep this country free; then please let there be a God that we can pray to keep our land free.
  36. Ed Op from Canada writes: To the posters wondering why this is suddenly an issue, I think it's clear it's because the editors at the Globe are clever enough to notice which of their news items get the most comments: stories which incite a debate about theism vs. atheism. Who knew?

    Sure, that's cynically opportunistic, but heck, still no reason not to wade in.

    The reason we shouldn't mention God in the anthem is that a quarter of the pop doesn't believe in He/She/It. Plain and simple. Oh, and because it wasn't in there til 28 years ago. And because there's no clear reason why it needs to be in there. I read the essays providing the raison d'etre for this little brouhaha about to ensue but I didn't find any compelling reasons why we'd be better off with God in the anthem. Come on, doesn't anyone out there believe it'll boost our GDP or something? Strengthen our borders? Save Harper? Personally, I had no trouble feeling patriotic, inspired, proud and happy to be Canadian pre-1980. Honest answers now - are there theists out there who remember thinking in 1980, 'Now that's more like it! I feel much better about Canada now!'
  37. Robert Duncan from Toronto, Canada writes: I would vote to get rid of all religious references. The idea that god, in any context, is looking out for one segment of humanity or piece of land over another is ridiculous. That is the propaganda disseminated by followers of organized religions. Those organizations exist solely to exert power over people. While they have done a lot of good in this world, they are also responsible for a lot of harm as well and have nothing to do with a “higher being&8221;. The reference does not belong in our anthem.
  38. Unknown User! from Canada writes: I absolutely hate it when people talk about removing 'God' from currency notes/coins to the national anthem. It absolutely enfuriates me. If you dont like it, go back to where you came from. This is Canada, this is the national anthem and we're not gonna change it. Political correctness at its worst.
  39. Ed Op from Canada writes:

    Henry:

    When one doesn't believe in said Creator.
  40. Alex Neave from Ottawa, Canada writes: What benefit? what benefit will it serve, other than to impune the heritage of canadians and incite division, which seems to be the modus operandus of todays society. 'God keep our land' how is that inherently Christian by any stretch of the imagination. It enrages me that individuals propitiate such inane banter and disquise it under the rouse of multiculturalism. 'THIS IS CANADA' 'THIS IS A CHRISTIAN FOUNDED NATION' Canadians are just as entitled to their heritage as are the immigrants who choose to 'ADOPT' Canada as their new home. It is high time we addressed boundaries in this multicultural dysfunctional malaise before we become a multicultural wasteland.
  41. robert white from toronto, Canada writes: I'm an old guy who has sang the national athem many times and dont recall GOD every being in it. who slipped it in and when??
  42. Templeton Jones from Windsor, Canada writes:

    I think God should continue to keep our land, but not in the fundamental sense. Our societies are based upon ideals and it takes years, sometimes centuries to reach, implement and appreciate these ideals. In my view God is symbolic with all that is good, such as living in harmony with nature, looking out for one another, acceptance to name a few. So my question is this: could the panel accept a more profound definition of God a definition which embraces the good for all of humanity?
  43. Barry Moss from Canada writes: Hmmm.... Justin Trottier draws a correlation between Christianity and genocide. If this was any other religion he was attacking, he'd already be up before a Human Rights Commission on hate speech charges. But I forgot, Christianity doesn't enjoy any legal protection in this country any longer.
  44. Bruce Banner from Toronto, Canada writes: Hilarious. On the other page of the G&M - Michael Valpy writes that the foreign policy Canadians most identify with was founded,

    'when a brilliant group of a dozen or so young Canadians were recruited into the foreign service between the two world wars. Lester Pearson, future Nobel Peace Prize winner and prime minister, was among them.

    A common thread runs through their backgrounds that has never been thoroughly analyzed: Almost all were the sons of pastors, priests, missionaries and deeply religious families. They were steeped in Protestant social gospel, that major intellectual force in Canadian political and social life of the early 20th century.

    Social gospel gave them their moral idealism. Their moral idealism led them to create Canada's first real foreign policy.'

    Atheists continue to amuse me with their proclamations of 'Religion is Dead' while marching to their utopian 'secular state'.
  45. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Again an attack by those who seek to punish faith, yet the word God is inclusive. So what is the panel to conclude? Words that have stood the test of time, or a Johnny come lately approach to eviscerate Reliogion in all forms...and the Hockey Night in Canada theme was a rally cry to the heart of Canadians...this is getting tired, contrived and a bit militant now...
  46. Godfried Wasser from Calgary, Canada writes: With the exception of Justin Troittier's comments I thought all contributors may a very valuable contribution to this typical G&M topic. Justin's was more provocative because of his outright denial of the existence of a spiritual being. In excess of 80% of Canadians believe in God and I suspect, the percentage of Canadian's that outright deny the existence of God is a lot less than the remaining 20%. As such, I see nothing offensive in the inclusion of the word God in our Anthem. To state that Satan is the inspiration of those who don't agree (as an earlier poster did) goes a bit far for me. That is stuff that leads to religious conflicts so common in the past and in today's world.
  47. JEANNE FARINE from Vancouver, Canada writes: No one expects an atheist to respond to a reference to God, in what ever version. Nor do those of us who do respond to such godly reference do so in a single version, obviously...and for a long time, a very long time, the varied versions of holy reference have been positive when they have not been competitive. Competition in religious context is both contrary to the hope embodied in religion, and a harbinger of the very conflict that true religion supposedly abhors. So. To wish to remove or displace or substitute references and symbols of historic realities does not bode well for the peace and respect for one another that the would be removers profess to desire. On the contrary, obviously, conflict begins to have a renewed potential. It is most interesting, and most gratifying, that the contribution to the discussion by the traditionally robed lady of a religious identity other than Christianity is the most generous and the most positive embrace of the universal Canadian aspiration the rest of us purportedly defend. Separation of church and state depends much more on the conscience of the citizens and their representatives as they support and provide governance, and much less on the specifics in either legal or symbolic context. Be judged on how ye act.
  48. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Justin Trottier: The inclusion of 'God' in our national anthem should be removed, as should all reference to a deity

    How nice of Justin, who recently reached to voting age want's to exclude a mjor portion of our citizens because he doesn't believe. You know what although I think he is below contempt in his opinion, My Grandfather/ My Father and I all served in the Forces and we put our lives on the line so that someone of his limited vision - would be able to speak freely, however misguided. Folks remember that in Saudi... if you are not with the faith, it is punishable by death. Have a great Canada day Justin, and please reflect on your freedom...
  49. A. Nonymous from AnthemVille, United States writes: If anyone finds it 'offensive' maybe they can petition to have the national anthems of the following countries changed as well:

    -Great Britain '** Save the Queen'

    -Canada '**     Keep our land'

    -United Arab Emirates : [contains multiple references to religion, and non secular items]

    -Vatican City : [contains multiple non-secular references]

    -Iran : [contains non secular references]

    -Hungary [contains non secular references]
    .
    .
    .
    And the list goes on and on.

    Perhaps we can replace the offending verse in the Canadian anthem with say 'The Conservative party keep our land, glorious and free', or maybe the name of a respected Corporation, like say McDonald's.

    The same should be done with all the other anthems, lets eliminate any non secular references, as these could offend atheists, or people of a different denomination.
  50. daryl M from calgary, Canada writes: Canada was built upon Christian/Judeo principles and as such I think God should remain in our anthem.
  51. Ron White from Calgary, Canada writes: I sure don't want to live in Mr. Trottiers' watered down version of a geographical entity as he sure does not refer to a country. I really enjoyed Ms. Khans' comment, particularily in her references to God and country. I have a unversity degree and have taken courses in religious studies....but I can't figure out what Mr. Higgens said, except leave it alone.
  52. martha stewart from Canada writes: that guy - Your post said it ALL. Thank you.
  53. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Justin Trottier: The inclusion of 'God' in our national anthem should be removed, as should all reference to a deity

    My Fahter familly and I all went into the Forces, so that people just like Justin could freely say what they wanted to. I am free to say that Justine has a narrow view of Canadians, to the point where he would exclude many of them in his new Canada. That though is what free speach is about, and why so many familly's sacrificed their Son's and Daughter's for the right of people to speak their mind, however much you might disagree...
  54. Pvt. Happy from Canada writes: If you equate the absence of god as a precursor to totalitarianism, you are misinformed... Religion, with its moral absolutes and denial of objective reality, is a far greater danger. There is no god. Unless you can prove to me that your particular easter bunny exists, I won't believe it. And please don't tell me about the value of faith. A few words: Spanish Inquisition, Hamas, Zionism, Tamil Tigers. Religion is a chlidish fantasy, petulant self-importance writ in blood. It should be taxed and ridiculed into nonexistence.
  55. Derek Pyne from Canada writes: Age Quod Agis, what you read was incorrect. The major totalitarian regime Canada fought a war with in the twentieth century was Germany and they actually had “God is with us” on their military belt buckles.

    BTW, I think that main argument for changing the anthem is that references to mythical beings serve no purpose. However, I don’t think the issue is that important, relevant to other problems facing the nation.
  56. Lemmy Nothor from Exiled with Aunt Jemima, Spain writes: Age Quod Agis from Toronto, Canada writes: I once read somewhere that the push to reject God from the public square was characteristic of the totalitarian regimes in the twentieth century...

    ********************************************************

    Well, you are half wrong, and half right. Communist countries did try to eradicate religion within their borders, but dictators such as Franco, pushed god into everyone's throat....
    Keep religion a private thing, and specially keep young kids far away from all forms of religions....make religion only available to adults.
  57. Hendrick Larose from Canada writes: I would think that if the writer of O Canada included God in the lyrics we should leave it in. If we want a different anthem get one but do not mess up the existing one. For those who object to the God lyric, humm along until the words work for you.
  58. Keith Conley from Calgary, Canada writes: I do feel the way our anthem reads is the way we have sung it for a long time. As a Canadian citizen, born in the Netherlands, I have given my all to the Country I wanted to be a citizen of and that is Canada, and thus I feel I am part of the Canadian Heritage which I have come to respect, and the Anthem which ispart of the inclusion of 'God' and 'thy sons command' is part of this Anthem and I am proud as a Canadian to sing this with pride. I do not feel that the words should be changed just to appease those who do not wish to sing it the way it has been sung long before this. The Anthem is part of the Canadian Heritage , and should stay the way it is.
    After all, those of us who immigrated here did so for a reason to have a better life and thus we took it upon ourselves when taking on the Oath of Canadian Citizenship, we also did so to uphold it's laws and by singing the Canadian anthem is part of accepting all that goes with being Canadian.

    JOYCE CONLEY.
  59. Joel Stoddart from Wolfville, Canada writes: If you want the God references changed because you SINCERELY think doing so will make you feel more 'included' in Canada, then I have no problem with it. However, my gut feeling tells me most of you who want the God references removed are NOT doing it because you feel excluded, but because you harbour resentment and hatred towards religious people. Is anyone big enough to admit that?
  60. R Hamel from Red Lake, Canada writes: That is the whole problem in our land in society. The Bible says God will heal our land if we pray and ask Him. Were too proud and evil to invoke the powerful name of God. In the schools in the 1950-60's we said the Lord's prayer everyday. We did nor have violence nor guns in our school. We did not have AIDS. Divorce and the breakdown of the family was rare. Am I making the connection? Why do we remove God from our schools and then wonder why there is so much violence? God has the solution for violence, sexuality, pollution control, and family life? When we remove God we remove His influence and protection from our nation.
  61. Justin Kase from Victoria, Canada writes: Just let it go already, enjoy Canada Day, sing the anthem with gusto and have a Canadian! Does everything have to be debated ad nauseum? If you want to take on a fight to change a bad anthem, read the words to the American one, it has to be the worst anthem ever in the history of the world. Praising one frig battle together with a really bad melody, surely they can do better... just ranting here. Dont take this too seriously. Go outside more.
  62. Tshweu Moleme from Orillia, Canada writes: On the issue of revising the Canadian National Anthem, South Africa comes to mind. After defeating the Apartheid Regime, South Africa put together a National Anthem that is inclusive and representative of all people of the land. South Africa picked about five of its most populous languages out the 11 official languages it has, that were used to form an new anthem. It worked. I know Canada is not South Africa, but am certain that should such a change be made, it will work. I for one will support such a move if only the laguage of Canada's Aboriginal peoples is/are also added to a revised version. From what I understand, an anthem is almost like a poetic telling of the story of a country,its people, and/or history, in the laguage/s of the land. This will not be bad timing, considering the Prime Minister's recent apology to Canada's Aboriginal people. It is just the right time to open up such a debate. A debate that will hopefully lead us to some good conclusion, where we will end up with a new or revised anthem. We learned a lot from South Africa's TRC, and I think we can learn even more on how they went about putting together a sound anthem. I know some people may want to argue that an Aboriginal language, for example, is not a populous language in Canada, but can we argue that the laguage and its people are not of this land ? No. Also, the language may not be a populous one nationally, but yet populous within the 45 or so of Canada's Aboriginal languages. So let's get on with it. This will be one way of righting the wrongs of the past. By introducing an anthem that speaks of all people of the land. Our objective/s may be the same or simlar to South Africa's and yet differ in methodology (or how the are achieved). My Question - Is Canada ready for such a discussion ? Or are we just opening a can of worms ?
  63. bruce desjardins from Windsor, Canada writes: I remember when the words were changed, and I felt like an old guy, not singing the new words at hockey games until long after the change. Apparently some musicologist declared there to be too many oh Canadas.
    I'm older now, and if you change them again to something other than the original, I'm in trouble.
  64. Able Bodied Man from It's NOT 'VICTORIA' Island, Canada writes: I WONDER...

    One must ask, Was God consulted before his name was put into the Anthem? Perhaps He does not care to keep our land for us since so many in our land seem not to care about Him.

    He is quoted as once having said 'My thoughts are higher than your thoughts.' If He does care, it would be prudent of us to desire His protection. Those who would like Him out of our Anthem and out of our Consititution are perhaps just wanting God out of their lives altogether.
  65. Gordon Puddister from Canada writes: It's also time to end the discriminatory practice of funding Catholic schools with public dollars.
  66. Able Bodied Man from It's NOT 'VICTORIA' Island, Canada writes:
    Justin Kase from Victoria, Canada writes: ... Does everything have to be debated ad nauseum?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You dare to question an essential Canadian value? The endless debate about everything and nothing at all are what makes this country great!
  67. G MacNeill from Nova Scotia, Canada writes: Before we expend so much energy in addressing the ‘god&8217; issue, why not try to resolve the national anachronism that is much more tangible and divisive &8211; the monarchy in Canada. If we are talking of religious matters here, let us not ignore that fact that our head of state, the personage to whom all new citizens must swear allegiance to is a religious icon - the head of the Church of England.
    This whole discussion is a diversion; a waste of time, until we face the embedded religiosity in our national framework &8211; a monarchy that embraces bigotry at its core. (Refer recent royal marriage of Montreal girl who had to choose between Roman Catholicism and the person she loves.) Until we recognize the elephant in the room, this discussion is just talk and nothing else.
  68. Ann Ig Norant from All right now it's warm enough, Canada writes: If one in four are atheists why should this country cater only to their wishes? How about the other 75% who do believe in God?
  69. Don Jenkins from Canada writes: I wonder how better you answer the rest of the sentence, '... glorious and free ...'?

    God is not the issue, it is those who claim to keep God in their private counsel who should worry us.
  70. Don Jenkins from Canada writes: Tshweu Moleme from Orillia: you're comparing Canada to South Africa's Apartheid regime?
  71. KD Duck from Windsor, Canada writes: The song refers to God in what sense? Who's God, what God? If we try to infiuence our current culture with those that are suppose to be integrating, changes would effect everything we know daily. Being multicultural is good, however when the core of society has to change to reflect everyone, the Canada that has been here will disappear and become more of a segregated society than an enriched one. Taking God out of the words will do nothing. The arguement that an atheist has is mute, because our country was founded on Christian values and many of our laws today still reflect that model. Immigrants who come into this country find that freedom of religion is what they gain. Since they gain that by coming here, why is there even a conversation about disallowing the one that has been around the longest? To the ones who complain about God being in the Constitution preamble, legally it has no definition and no bearing on the constitution itself. If we are to dissect every resemblance to God, we would be here for an awful long time debating about why it should be removed and not the reason it was referenced to. The reasons for putting it there was clear years ago. The reason for removing it is based on assumption and not history. Keep it. It belongs with the country.
  72. Fredy P from Moffat, Canada writes: The existence of a God was pure fiction. It was created to maintain order in olden days. The church, mosque, synagogue etc was like the local police force trying to maintain order through guilt that big brother was watching and was everywhere.

    There has never been any proof nor will there be. When will Christians face the reality that they have been waiting 2,000 years for the return of Jesus and still nothing. It’s like waiting for a bus that never comes.

    Your great great great great Grandmother said Jesus is coming, she died as did most of her descendents repeating the same story and still nothing.

    Since God doesn’t exist I don’t see the point in prolonging the myth. Frankly you can believe what ever you want, as long as it doesn’t involve or effect me, and since the anthem is for All Canadians, it is time to lose the reference to God

    PS and why is it that some of you think that only people not from here don't believe in God. I am from here! 4th generation Canadian!
  73. Able Bodied Man from It's NOT 'VICTORIA' Island, Canada writes:
    I see the G&M is afraid of full debate.

    How about asking God if He WANTS to be in the Anthem?
  74. A G Peterson from Vancouver, Canada writes: Let it stand! God save the Queen!
  75. jodi chartreuse from Windsor, Canada writes: Doesn't anyone else find the notion that atheists consider themselves to be god's gift to humanity absolutely hilarious?
  76. Joseph Whistle from Canada writes: I always mentally filter out all this God this and religious crap that crap.
    But it IS really annoying to have to put up with it. I always laugh when the religious zealots come out and make claims how God this and that. They are the ones stuck with this fabble in their heads. I consider it pretty much a mass hysterical disease. Knowing people all around them thing it's all just a bunch of baloney, wouldn't it be more comfortable to remove all these religious elements and keep it private to themselves in their homes and churches?
    And if there WAS or IS a 'God' it is most definitely NOT the way they pretend it is. Some sort of gray wise old man watching our every move. It's just so utterly insanely ridiculous.
  77. j boland from United States writes: RicK C says 'Henry you assume there is a creator to thank. That is an opinion; not fact. '

    Actually, Rick, if Henry's comment is mere opinion, then yours is likewise. You omit what ought to be obvious, namely: the original statement by Henry may be his opinion but it also may be a fact. If you know for sure, please impart your wisdom to the rest of us mere mortals.

    God keep our land: interestingly, the words imply a sense of humility to the historic limitations of human nature, a humility that when genuine oddly tends to a strengthing in fact. A deliberate excise at this point in time on the other hand would be more in line with the hubris that is the mark of a civilization doomed to decline. The latter, however, would be in line with the every growing self righteousness of the canadian mindset.
  78. jan bakker from Canada writes: Remove God from the national anthem? Might as well, he has been already been for the most removed from the rest Of Canadian culture and society! He's been removed and replaced with you name it, and look what a fine mess we have now!
  79. The Bull from Canada writes: won't she be mad if we remove her from the anthem?

    she might be a vengeful God!

    careful!!!!!!
  80. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: How about should the name Canada exist ?

    We have so many people who cannot even spell the word Canada and the way we are allowing pockets based on nationality and religion, we would soon be asked to change the name Canada.
  81. Mike Sumners from Toronto, Canada writes: As an atheist, 'God' means no more to me than Mickey Mouse or the Easter Bunny; they're all just figures and figments of Humanity's imagination. Leave 'God' in or take it out, makes no difference to me.
  82. S Lucht from Canada writes: In the name of various gods and religion, people have destroyed indigenous cultures, slaughtered millions of people, suppressed knowledge, stolen--in short, committed every despicable act possible. I can't imagine that the good that has been performed could possibly outweigh the misery engendered, or that god should be esteemed in any national anthem.

    However, Canada clings to obsolete institutions (eg, the Queen) in the misguided belief that such anachronisms are somehow vital to our understanding of Canadian history or to our current and future status among the world's nations. Why should god be any different?
  83. Peter Kells from Bytown, Canada writes: If my memory serves me right, when I was in elementary school back in the 1960's we sang Oh Canada and there was no reference to 'God'. I believe a group of God fearing politicians decided to add the term into more recent 'official' versions of the song.

    I am all for removing any reference to 'God' in our national anthem. We are a secular state and our national anthem should reflect that. God should keep him/herself busy with religious matters and stay out of secular national anthems.
  84. Jeffrey Smyth from Toronto, Canada writes: My uncle, a famous Northern Irish medical researcher always classified himself as an atheist, but a Protestant atheist. Today, I had lunch in Toronto with my friend who classifies himself as an atheist, but a Catholic atheist. I think we are making progress -- at least the Irish are!
  85. Louis . from London, Canada writes: The reference to God in our national anthem makes it seem as if people who do no believe in God are less than perfect Canadians. That does not seem right...
  86. Johnny FromCanada from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'God' should be replaced by 'GOP' - it's becoming the 'truth' anyway. :-P
  87. Jake Richardson from Kingston, Canada writes: Patriotism has nothing to do with religion, and neither should the anthem.
  88. Piltdown Man from Canada writes: a fascinating debate? unless we are willing to go back to the forgettable politically correct and incredibly earnest 1990s when the govt and everyone else in power bent over backwards to show how accommodating they were we'd be best to stick with what we have

    oh canada - a more and more bland and uninteresting but safe place you are!
    standing on guard for thee but only if it does not involve the killing of scumbags and the like!
    true patriot love but we are willing to consider dual citizenship and persons carrying passports of convenience!
  89. West Coast Not West from Canada writes: We have to keep 'God' in our national anthem, so that he/she/it will always be on our side when we got to war.
  90. Kevin McDougald from Winnipeg, Canada writes: As an agnostic myself, I have no objection to keeping the word 'God' in the anthem.

    The word 'God' by itself is a term of ambiguous meaning. To some, it refers to an invisible, human-like being that has the ability to think and to act. To others, the word refers to a non-human 'life force'. Maybe it's even a rhetorical tool, with 'God' being 'my/your conscience' being put into the third person for dramatic effect. Or a way of putting one's own thoughts and desires into the third person.

    In short, the word 'God' is whatever you personally want it to mean under the circumstances.
  91. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: Yes, further evidence that there is a movement to tear down what once used to be a great nation.

    Happy Dominion Day all.
  92. Ed Op from Canada writes:

    Able Bodied Man and jodi chartreuse:

    I DON'T.
  93. Wayne Morrison from Toronto, Canada writes: It is not very politically correct and, therefore, not very Canadian to God in the anthem when there are some who would take exception. If Canada stands for anything it is about being all things to all people [which, of course, means that ultimately we stand for nothing], therefore is is unacceptable that a God [and whose God is it, by the way?] be included in the Canadian anthem. First toss the God reference, then toss the anthem, because it's full of contradictions and minor insults.
  94. Zaphod Beeblebrox from Regina, Canada writes: I am an atheist, however I have no problem with God being included in our national anthem. As for anybody who is offended by it, suck it up Princess. The world does not revolve around you and your precious little feelings.

    The PC crap has now officially reached the level of idiocy!
  95. One Eye Open from calgary, Canada writes: excellent point 'that guy'! God can be a different thing to different people. Athiests are a very small portion of the population. People of different faiths have one thing in common. They all pray to a god or gods.

    My perspective is that if another person believes in one god, and I believe in one god, it doesn't matter what we call that god (Allah, Buddah, or whatever). If we both believe that there is only on god, we must be the praying to the same god.
  96. Proud Canadian from Canada writes: I`m not religious, and this doesn`t bother me one bit. As a proud patriot I think our anthem is sacred. I think self righteous religious people and condescending and arrogant atheists should stay away from using our national anthem as a little proxy war over a pointless debate. Let`s not forget we`re all Canadians, regardless of our point of view...the rest is trivial....I`ll be singing the entire anthem tomorrow
  97. R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: I would much prefer The Maple Leaf Forever.........I have never liked the God bit in our anthem. It is a 'hangover' from another time.
  98. Hardeep Gill from Canada writes: I liked much of what Khan had to say, but her defense of keeping the reference to god in the anthem seemed contradictory. She stated that a majority of Canadians believe in God and therefore the reference should remain. She then went on to say that the explicit reference to Christianity in the French version of the anthem was 'out of sync' with the current Canada, implying (via her reasoning to keep god in) that the majority of French Canada was not Christian...which is definitely false.
  99. G MacNeill from Canada writes: Re: A G Peterson and his remark 'God save the Queen! '
    I agree totally! Let God have her.
  100. C Bruner from Toronto, Canada writes: I've served my country, I've sung the anthem without God, but I can't stand to sing it with this 'God' thing in it. Sorry, doesn't work for me, and yes it does offend me.

    Yes, I know you god fearing types don't care.
  101. Jean-Guy Tremblay from Chicoutimi, Canada writes: Here is a little trivia for you guys.

    O Canada was a nationalistic anthem for Francophones composed by Calixa Lavallee for a poem written by Adolphe-Basile Routhier at a time when Anglophones still considered themselves British citizens (not Canadians). It was first sang in 1880, at the 'Congres national des Canadiens-Francais' on St. Jean-Baptiste Day. It is rarely sang on June 24th nowadays.

    http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/sc-cs/anthem_e.cfm
  102. Mahatma Gandhi from Canada writes: It's interesting that believers in God can't be happy unless there's at least the appearance that everyone agrees with them. Not believing in God brings out the worst aggression from people who supposedly are all about peace and love and compassion. Although I agree with the Muslim person that the bit about the cross and the sword in French is pretty outrageous.

    Whatever. If you want to sing 'God keep our land ...', go for it. I won't be offended. But I will sing 'O Canada ...', and if that offends you ... well, I really don't care.
  103. Mahatma Gandhi from Canada writes: Joel Stoddart from Wolfville, Canada writes: If you want the God references changed because you SINCERELY think doing so will make you feel more 'included' in Canada, then I have no problem with it. However, my gut feeling tells me most of you who want the God references removed are NOT doing it because you feel excluded, but because you harbour resentment and hatred towards religious people. Is anyone big enough to admit that?

    I can only speak for myself, but (a) I don't need to 'feel included' in Canada; (b) to me, the words 'God keep our land ...' are at best meaningless; (c) I certainly do not have any negative feelings towards religious people. In fact, I hang out with quite a few really religious people, people who have dedicated their lives to their religion, and they're the nicest people I know: Kind, compassionate, gentle.

    Listen to yourself. I don't harbour hatred or resentment; how about you? It sounds to me like you are being pretty aggressive, and frankly, downright rude, towards those who don't share your beliefs. Chill. Don't rub your religion in people's faces. Practice your religion.
  104. stand up mimi from Canada writes: Joseph Whistle from Canada writes: 'I always laugh when the religious zealots come out and make claims how God this and that. They are the ones stuck with this fabble in their heads. I consider it pretty much a mass hysterical disease.'

    Funny. I think the same thing about atheists, although usually I'm too polite to say so. So I don't see any reason to change our lyrics just to suit them. Rant until you're red in the face, atheists. You're still only 20 percent of the population.
  105. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: Oh go watch 'Zeitgeist' the movie & wake up people! You even get to listen to George Carlin one last time. Google for it, the 116 minute version is my favorite.

    Yes remove the word 'GOD' from our national anthem, the sooner the better!
  106. stand up mimi from Canada writes: Mahatma Gandhi from Canada writes: 'Not believing in God brings out the worst aggression from people who supposedly are all about peace and love and compassion.'

    Actually, I've found that a lot of aggression comes from anti-religious zealots, who think it's okay to publicly denounce and demean someone's personal beliefs, and call into question their intellectual capacity. It's just so bewildering to them that anyone intelligent could possibly have religious beliefs, that the only possible conclusion they can come to is that people with religious beliefs are not intelligent. Now that is not only rude, but a very weak premise, considering the legions of brilliant, not to mention socially progressive Christians throughout the centuries who have shaped society for the better.

    On the other hand, I do know atheists who are very polite about their beliefs and there is mutual respect. Too bad that never seems to happen in these forums.
  107. Fake Name from Canada writes: ' Unknown User! from Canada writes: I absolutely hate it when people talk about removing 'God' from currency notes/coins to the national anthem. It absolutely enfuriates me. If you dont like it, go back to where you came from.'

    Ah ... that would be here. The odds of a first-generation immigrant holding religious beliefs are generally higher than for canadian-born people. Still, this is a tempest in a teapot as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe in any god(s) either, but this anthem has been around as long as I've been alive, so it has a certain degree of tradition / patriotic significance, mythology and all.

    That said, I like Don Jenkins' comment 'God is not the issue, it is those who claim to keep God in their private counsel who should worry us.' The crowd above who claim that atheists are all closet satanists, and that all of society's ills stem from removing compulsory prayer from schools ... that's the really scary ideology, because I don't think it would take a big push to escalate that to burning the 'heretics' at the stake.

    The sense of entitlement to push religion on everyone that I've read from some of these comments is as off-putting as Trottier's zeal for purging every last vestige of it from society.
  108. Sev Scott from calgaristan, Canada writes: Get rid of it. Trudeau and his multiculturalism requires that we do not stand up for anything French or English, and thus, not anything at all. Get rid of the maple leaf too, and the RCMP, and anything else that has anything to do with the two founding nations. Let's bring in sharia too, and stop all comedy festivals, and magazine freedoms.
  109. Fake Name from Canada writes: Incidentally, did anyone else find the over-the-top churchy fourth verse that Ms. Ducek wanted to add to be simultaneously ridiculous, nauseating, and hilarious? I'm surprised none of the comments yet have picked up on the fact that the G&M is selecting someone who suggested adding a verse that's basically about counting down to the Rapture as a credible opinion for this discussion.

    PS any sincerely offended atheists can always just sing 'FSM keep our land' instead. Because we know pastafarianism isn't old and overplayed at all.
  110. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: As long as we don't actually DEFINE 'God' -- a project that few want to undertake -- what's the big deal ? I don't happen to subscribe to any cult, but I don't mind these words being there. Defining 'God' would mean that we would have to recognize that SOME folks' idea of 'God' was, uh, 'wrong'; not a pretty picture, eh ? And some would want some sort of religious 'test' to be applied to us, here: NOPE. But, as for me, these words aren't offensive; at most, they're a bit odd, since they show a belief in an Almighty who makes choices among nations, which ones to guard, which ones to condemn, whatever; such contentions are a bit, uh, 'unsupported'.

    And while we're at it, we should bring back the red ensign, so Canada could have TWO flags . . . put a fleur-de-lis on the right side of it; no problem.
  111. William Auger from Edmonton, Canada writes: I have a radical idea! Why not let multiculturalism be inclusive of the founding Canadian culture groups. A preposterous idea in the Canadian gulag of politic correctness. After all everyone knows that one complaint is equal to one million offended people so 100 complaints means 100 million Canadians are upset about this really important issue that requires a panel representing every minority that ever set foot on Canadian soil. Very important article to help unify Canadians. Keep up the good work G&M!
  112. Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: Question: If we have no reference to God; in any form. Let us say our National Song, then do we remove the Bible from the law courts? And if we do remove the Bible from the Law courts what do we replace it with, if anything at all? Are we to still swear or afirm witnesess? Or just let liars rule the day, with no punishment at all; because from that day foward liars do rule the day. Possibly even though the actual book remains in the court room today, its aimpact has lost all meaning. 'Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth any nothing but the turth so help your God.' After saying those words and having placed your right hand on the Bible in a Canadian Law Court. Would you or would you not still be capable of voicing a 'falsehood'? A 'Perjury'. Remove God, I believe and God will give you over to what ever other god or deamon, you wish. ThanK you.
  113. Dana Cruickshank from Canada writes: I don't believe in any god at all, but I'm not advocated taking it out. If you are actually offended by the reference to God in our national anthem then you are very self conscious of your own beliefs. We can't change everything about the past of this country, and we do need to keep some traditions even if they are outdated, thats what connects us to our past.
  114. Joseph Whistle from Canada writes: stand up mimi:
    So you want the lyrics to contains references to your fictional god to suit yourself. Rant until you're red in the face, you superstitious fabblist. You're stuck in the dark ages. Also on the world scale, the religion you preach is in the vast minority. I'm glad I'm free from your and your manipulative friend's made up crap.
  115. Etienne Forest from Japan writes: I am an French Canadian, pure in race as it can be and THUS of catholic origin whether I like it or not. I am also an atheist. But Christianity is part of our heritage. Canada and Quebec in particular would be something else if my ancestors had been say Moslems or Bhuddists. So here is my question: should all pagan symbols in Europe be bulldozed down in the name of multiculturalism? We still have the Pantheon, the Coliseum and the Parthenon. Why can't we have our beautiful empty churches and an our meaningless 'il sait porter la croix' or a crucifix on the wall of the National Assemby to remind of us of the importance of our ancestors' ridiculous superstitions? Or is it only when 99% of us will become atheists like myself, that Christian symbols will be tolerated? Remove religion from our laws but protect our Christian heritage for the same reason we protect our pagan heritage: because it is OURS. Precisely because immigrants attach a greater importance to their religion than we do, we should abolish all religious rights. We do not need them at all in a place (Quebec for example) where the majority do not believe in God or gods. These rights are dangerous: look at the blasphemy laws in Britain: the Brits abolish them precisely when the Moslems in Britain try to invoke them. It was the right thing to do rather than to extend them to Moslems. Freedom of assembly should suffice. I can start a literature club. They can start a koran study club or a bible class. Remove protection of superstitions from our laws. One God, Trinity, Shintoism with zillion of gods? They cannot all be correct and therefore deserve no special protection.
  116. John Deriso from Edmonton, Canada writes: This entire discussion presupposed that when we say the words, we take them seriously. Do we? Does anyone? I don't really think we do. This is not a negative thing, mind you, merely how we go about celebrating our heritage without getting bogged down in all the things that people used to believe or do one hundred or one thousand years ago.

    So say 'God'. That's fine. I don't believe in one God or many gods. But it doesn't bother me that other people do. They are just words.

    What does bother me is when the words lead to actions which are offencive. Luckily, we do live in a society where atheists have just as much rights as Christians, Muslims, Jews, Neo-pagans, and voodoo priests. As long as 'God' doesn't mean some people can have rights and some can't, I'm fine with the words.
  117. kinda idealistic from Calgary, Canada writes: This is not about political correctness. It does not matter that many Canadians are religious at least in theory. It does not even matter that most Canadians don't care. This is an extremely simple issue: the national anthem is intended to be more than just a relic of the past. It is a sort of national declaration which we can say sincerely, which we can believe in. This is why singing about spaghetti monsters or just throwing in your own name or anything else doesn't work. This is supposed to be about standing together, not about paying lip service to this great little country we've got running here.

    When it says 'God' (and 'god' with a lowercase G is no better) it expresses something which a significant portion of us do not believe, and have a right not to believe. If you want to ask god to keep Canada all nice and glorious, do -- but not in my anthem. It is no more right to keep god in than it would be to insert some atheist statement. The goal isn't to purge religion from our culture. It's to recognise the full diversity of our country.
  118. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: brian bishop from Brantford,: The movie zeitgeist has some truth but has huge error in it's belief system. This stuff is not fact, do a bit more research you future depends on it. Eternity awaits. God rules. Remove Jesus Christ the Lord from this nation and it will be turned to Hell! Sorry not going to happen.
  119. Jill M from Vancouver, Canada writes: I'm a first-generation Canadian. My parents immigrated to Canada in the 1980s and I was born in Canada.

    To sing the Canadian national anthem brings me great joy and appreciation of what Canada stands for. I sing it loudly.

    In my opinion, seeing as how the reference to God is already vague as it is, to remove it from the anthem seems far more exclusionary -- the desire of fundamental secularists and anti-theists alone -- than to leave it.
  120. Buddy From Away from Canada writes: Neon Cab from Canada wrote: 'Even if Canada is multicultural and has a diversity of faiths, is it not still predominantly Christian when all sects are included?' -------------------------------- No. This is a misconception. Atheists form the largest group in Canada. But you can be forgiven for this misconception as it is a common practice for people of 'faith' to overstate the numbers of 'believers' i.e. Lorna Dueck states 'More than 80% of Canadians profess to believe in God' in an attempt to use numbers to justify her position. If one person believes in a paranormal 'person' we call it insanity. If millions do, we call it religion. Clearly, people of 'faith' find comfort in inflated numbers. But the truth is quite different A Canadian Angus-Reid poll taken in the mid-1990's found that about 14% of Canadians are Atheists; that would total over 4 million Atheists, circa 2002. The pollsters found out, apparently to their embarrassment, that Atheists formed the largest single religious category of Canadians. So they split the group into two sub-classifications: real Atheists, and Atheists who attend religious services. This made certain that a Christian classification became the largest. Moreover the numbers of 'nonbelievers' (read the enlightened) is increasing steadily in Canada A global study on atheism in 2005 reported that; in Canada a low of 19 to a high of 30% of the population are atheists or agnostics.* (However this may be understating the numbers. 'These figures do not necessarily represent the number of people who are identify themselves as 'atheists.' For example, in Estonia in 2004, 49% of people surveyed said they did not believe in God. At the same time, only 11% of people in the country identified themselves as atheists.) *Source: Zuckerman, Phil. 'Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns', I find myself agreeing with Justin Trottier on this issue. Let's get the gods out of our anthem.
  121. Barry Spence from Canada writes:
    Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: 'Question: If we have no reference to God; in any form. Let us say our National Song, then do we remove the Bible from the law courts? And if we do remove the Bible from the Law courts what do we replace it with, if anything at all? Are we to still swear or afirm witnesess?'

    Entirely separate issue, Mr. Toth.

    Neither a Bible nor any other holy book is required for a witness to affirm that s/he will testify truthfully. Courts in Canada have the Bible, the Torah, the Koran and holy books or artifacts of other religions available for use in the swearing of witnesses. A witness is free to use the symbol of his/her choosing, or to affirm, using no symbol whatever.

    On a separate matter:

    Damien Lee shows a common misinterpretation of the 'sons' phrase, writing 'sons' in the plural possessive form.

    The full sentence, 'True patriot love in all thy sons command,' is addressed to the country, and 'command' is the verb, not something possessed by the 'sons'. Were it not for the necessity to fit it into the song, the sentence could be rewritten to exhort Canada to 'Command true patriot love in all your people (sons).'

    Joyce Conley and Jennifer Filipowicz get it right. Jennifer also offers a substitution, 'all of us,' to eliminate the gender bias in 'all our sons.'
  122. Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes: Just imagine what we will be destroying tomorrow as we seek to impose the selfish pettiness of a transient being on a transient world. I think therefore I am, has been replaced with, I feel therefore I am. And now they believe that it means the same thing. God is not dead. Religion is dead. Killed by the moral equivocation that is monotheism. And it's manipulation and abuse of the human spirit. My God is alive and doing well. Neither of us practise religion.
  123. Duane Freemantle from writes: Canada is a Christian nation. This is in no way a reflection on Canada's multinational identity, negatively or positively. There will be argument for the changes to Canada's National Anthem, but none will provide a definite reason to make such change. Canada's National Anthem is fine, it both shows the respect a Christian nation has for other people, and the pride we have in our nation. It is very hard for me to clearly express what I am trying to say. 'To make others understand your customs, invite them into your home, and then they can share their customs with you (Duane Freemantle July 1st, 2008).'
  124. M Y from Richmond, Canada writes: 'God' in 'O Canada' is part of Canadian history. I do not think we shall remove 'God' from 'O Canada' simply because of multi culture; though I personally do not believe in God.
  125. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Leave the anthem alone !

    Cheers.
  126. kelly notavailable from United States writes: Come on Canada, just do it. Change God to Allah. You are headed that way, save some time and effort.
  127. Russell Barth from Nepean, Canada writes: God? You mean that omnipotent being that supposedly created the whole universe in six days?

    I never had an imaginary friend as a child (although there were some imaginary kids in my school), and I don't think adults should have imaginary friends now.

    There is no DAD taking care of all of us. It is all superstition and balderdash. Grow up. Religion is for fools.
  128. Sam Reda from Capital, Canada writes: Leave the anthem as it is! Here is another prime example of how weak and subservient our country is becoming when we start questioning whether we should change our national anthem! Do you think the Americans would alter their anthem? Who's stupid idea is this anyway???
  129. anthony oland from Wasaga Beach, Canada writes: 'one in four' is 25%! Even minorities should be catered to, and that means returning our anthem to what it originally was, and not retain the Trudeau version.
  130. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: First off, the people who think this 'God' reference is an intrinsic part of the English lyric are forgetting that it was added in the eighties thanks to lobbying by the evangelistic crowd (David Mainse and friends).

    Secondly those who claim 'not to believe in God', probably just don't believe in the traditional, organized-religion dogma vision of God. Pretty hard not to believe there is a unifying power or life-force of some type.

    We could just sing something along the lines of 'let's keep this land glorious and free (but not the US kind of 'free')'.

    I would also add '...and groovin'', but that's just me.
  131. Ernie Brennan from HRM, Canada writes: What and who's GOD are we talking about, go for a walk , turn a corner, meet a new person, has god changed for you.
  132. Rachelle W from Kirkland, United States writes: God doesn't keep Canada, Canadians do.

    Ethics are not governed by religion -- although religion may help in some people's minds. There is only one constant moral compass: don't do to others what you wouldn't have them do to you. Happy Canada Day!
  133. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes:
    'Car ton bras sait porter l'épée, il sait porter la croix' does not necessarily translate to ''Since you can carry the sword, you can carry the cross.' I have always considered the two lines to be seperate, especially since the ' car ' is a 'because' and not a ' since '.

    To me, it means that all that has been said before in the anthem is ' because your arm carries the sword, and (because) it carries the cross.'

    Perhaps the difference is moot, but the translation given in the article seems a little silly to me.
  134. Charles Smith from United Kingdom writes: Be very careful of people that propose removing references or honouring God in any way.
  135. Nathalie Quebec from Quebec, Canada writes: I am very happy that this issue is being discussed as I feel our national anthem in it's current content is outdated. It needs to represent what we aim for in the future as a multicultural people. I am deeply attached to my country. I am proud of being Canadian. I am deeply touched by our national anthem. However, everytime we get to the reference to a belief in a superior deity, both in the French and English version, I experience a strong sense of humilitation. It leads me to think the following: 1) It is a reference to the severe damage done to Canadians in history by religious organisations, which exist to apply codes of behaviours linked to a belief in a 'god'. I am thinking among others, of the terrible actions taken by the jesuits, followed by the catholic church in Quebec. I am ashamed of what has been done in the name of a 'god'. My perspective is that the darkest elements of history of our country most often resulted from the operations of these organisations. 2) It is a reference to a deity...which is based on beliefs....meaning they are the result of imagination....thus are not substantiated.... Again, I feel humiliated to have my national anthem mention such a volatile notion. I feel it ruins our national anthem's credibility. I recognize that there is still a large part of our population that carries beliefs of all sorts. I respect that as long as it stays at home. My reason for this perspective is that beliefs in deities are most often linked to religious formats that result in various codes of behaviour. Considering that these codes often conflict with one another, it can only result in more challenges to get along with one another as canadians. Our national anthem should be about how we want our canadian identity to be as we look toward our future. It should be about the secular values we choose to share as a people, meaning the widest possible way of respecting one another.
  136. Jeremy VanEgmond from Ancaster, writes: I agree with some of the earlier comments made on the fact that including God in the national anthem only enhances Canada's openness to religion and freedom. Sure, we could change 'God' for 'Allah', 'Ishvara ', or even 'Let's' but to each man his own, there is something we trust to keep this nation intact. So I will sing the national anthem with God in mind and you can sing it in the perspective and confidence of yourself as god and together we will show that Canada is, indeed, glorious and free.
  137. John Smith from Calgary, Canada writes: While it would be nice if Canada was enlightened enough to shed the superstition of gods and demons, its plain that most people in this country are not there yet. While we certainly must struggle to ensure that these irrational beliefs cause no real harm in our society, attempting to remove the word 'God' from our anthem should be a low priority. Lets focus on the big stuff, like protecting children from them and keeping the hocus pocus out of our law-making.
  138. Older'n Dirt from Belleville, Canada writes: Talk about your straw dogs and red herrings....both sides of this issue seem designed as wedges to cause one to be for or against inclusion of a God as a word of debatable application in our anthem. While I personally don't subscribe to any religious lunacy, I do understand the values such bring to the lives of believers. I also accept that the values of the Christian religions were the values that this country was built on, not athieism, not Islam, not Buddism, not communism..etc, etc. The removal of the word God from the anthem may be soothing to some who take offence that the word is not reflective of their chosen deity; but, it will also signal a rejection of the values and principles that established a freedom loving country that accommodates a wide range of religious beliefs or belief in no gods at all. English protestants and French Catholics gave us the country we have today and while it's not perfect, it has until recently been a place of refuge and relative serenity for all who come here. The most significant anxieties in the country today are the introduction of foreign religious values that allow aircraft and buildings to be bombed on religious grounds by zealots. While I don't pray to a christian or any other God, I can readily accept the relatively peaceful and accommodating Christian tenants as something that has existed as familiar cornerstones of our nation. I cannot accept that in rejection of the nations long standing christian values there will be a great renewal of our society. Today we have Jihadists in our midst that openly despise our society and that plan death and destruction for those not adhering to their faith. We have people that think it's OK to bomb innocents and planeloads of travellers. We have groups raising and sending money to support war and killig in many parts of the world. These are not Canadian values but we endorse them by our beneign acceptance and accommodation in our rush to be fair.
  139. Paul Kruger from Vernon, Canada writes: 'Oh Canada, our home and NATIVE land' - actually, it may be our home, but for most Canadians it was not our native land - very few can claim that much! So, I'm VERY OFFENDED that it's not exactly politically correct - and I demand the anthem be changed to: 'Oh Canada, our home - and their native land' (wink).

    As for removing the reference to God from the anthem ... At this point we are such an embarrassment to God, that I'm sure God would be rather relieved not to be associated with us 'riff-raff' any longer. I mean, all the liberal lefties constantly badger us to be tolerant of others - except when 'others' comprise the majority. If we were to put this idea to a national vote, it would be roundly defeated!
  140. Peter Dawson from Halifax, Canada writes: As an additional comment; 'God keep our land' is a use of the subjunctive voice - otherwise it would be 'God keeps our land' - a statement of fact, similar to 'Mr Brown keeps a garden'.
    The subjunctive is used, among other things, to express a wish - I interpret this as '[may] God keep our land' - a simple and noble sentiment, not an expression of cultural arrogance. If S/He doesn't then so be it.
    (Atheists are here directed to Pascal's thoughts on God's existence - if there were no God, no harm done in praying - if God exist, then NOT praying may be risky indeed.)
    If, by the way, it were (note further subjunctive - 'were', as opposed to 'was') simply a request to God, in the second person, it would properly be 'God, keep our land...', with a comma after God.
    Would that more people understood the grammar!
  141. PJ Casey Jardine from Canada writes: This multiculturlism is getting a bit too much. Imigrants came to this country for a better life and Freedom. I am very sorry if they do not like the way our country is but you chose it and you left your land for ours.
    We have National Anthem that has been here for many years and it is not something that should be changed or manipulated with for people from other lands. This is the Canadian way and the Canadian way of life and if you are not happy with you life in oursociety well there is nothing in this land that is holding you here.
    People came to Canada because it was different and a land of the free but why do we as born and are many generation Canadians feel we have to change our ways to suit imigrants who left their land for ours.
    Anyone who came to this country should have been aware of our culture and customs before coming
    I am very proud of our country and our anthem and please stop trying to change our way of life.
    I am sure there are many more things that are much more important to debate other than how we can change our ways to the ways of others.
  142. garlick toast from Canada writes: 'So let's all sing the national anthem,
    free the hostages,pay the ransom,
    raise the flag and lower the taxes,
    ban the bomb and bury the hatchet
    oh boy hey hey,
    it's a national holiday'

    Pat MacDonald.
  143. Fake Name from Canada writes: ' Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: Question: If we have no reference to God; in any form. Let us say our National Song, then do we remove the Bible from the law courts? And if we do remove the Bible from the Law courts what do we replace it with, if anything at all? Are we to still swear or afirm witnesess? Or just let liars rule the day, with no punishment at all; because from that day foward liars do rule the day.'

    It's not like someone who's inclined to give false court testimony is going to be mystically compelled to tell the truth because they've promised to while touching a bible. Liars are still going to lie, no matter what books they're touching or promises they give.

    Incidentally, I'm pretty sure court witnesses are already allowed to choose to swear on something other than the bible and god. If I'm incorrect, that's a far bigger affront to secular people and non-christians than anything in the anthem.
  144. grandma fed up from Canada writes: God can be interpreted to mean Good Orderly Direction...a power greater than yourself. When one realizes that the individual is not the center of the universe, they can get outside of themselves, then they truly can grow their spirit and be a benefit to society rather than a detriment. This belief has saved many a life lost in addictions. You are what you think....so why not aim to become a higher being. Self-centeredness, greed, lust, envy, leads to myopic society that ends up self destructing...Please leave the anthem as is...few under 30 know the words anyway, they only know songs with four letter words. All cultures have a God...there is only one God....and I don't care how you believe or worship that God. Religion is the Worship of a God and that must stay personal. Those who say they don't believe in God must have created themselves, and I hope on their death beds they can be pleased with the results of their lives.
  145. David M. from Montreal, Canada writes: I think the reference to God should stay. I am an agnostic; I don't claim to know whether or not God (or Gods) exist. I don't identify particularly strongly with this passage, but I'm certainly not offended by it either. As the commentators point out, there have been several versions of the anthem. Nonetheless, the one with the line about God keeping our land is the one I grew up with and it is becoming part of our tradition. I think, then, that there would have to be a compelling reason to remove this line, and I can't see one in the commentator's essays or the posts, above. We live in a multicultural society and all Canadians should be able to sing their national anthem with pride. The question is who might be offended or feel alienated by this statement and feel excluded by it. While the text is obviously Christian in its origins, the Muslim commentator seemed to accept it as her own, and I suspect most adherents of monotheistic religions would too. It could be problematic though for adherents of polytheistic religions and other religious traditions. What do Hindus make of this passage, for example? It is not my place to speak for them, but I suspect that at least some would identify with it. What about atheists? As evidenced by the last commentator, some find this passage offensive. However, I suspect that for every one who is offended, you will find another who finds the passage benignly anachronistic. After all, this is a vague reference to 'God;' it is not the same as the ten commandments outside of a courthouse. Would it be wise to change our national anthem to accomodate a small minority who feel alienated by it? This is a valid question. If we did change it, could we improve it? Could a revised version be more inclusive while still solidifying a national identity? I don't know. But I say leave it alone. And then there's the French-language version... but I've already hit my word limit.
  146. I R from White Rock, BC, Canada writes: Some debates are just too divisive and polarising. This is one of them, right up there with abortion.
  147. Wilma De Bruyn from Toronto, Canada writes: Kev Jack from United States writes: Start removing God and your country will go down hill quickly!
    Posted 30/06/08 at 1:08 PM EDT | Link to Comment
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Absolutely true.

    There's either God or Satan, take your pick.

    Or would one rather believe in the Beast????
  148. Michael Joseph from London Ontario, Canada writes: History tells us that nations and empires fall as they seek to eliminate God and to seek secular pleasures ahead of God fearing morality. eg. Roman Empire, and possibly the UK and US now.
    History tells us time and again that to live like there is no God would be foolish.

    A National Anthem is a National 'Hymn' or prayer so acknowledgement of God should not be a surprise. It is offensive when people attack faith in God either directly or indirectly. I trust we can exercise wisdom by learning from history.
  149. Don Adams, The Conservative Centrist from Canada writes: What a bunch of BS being written here!

    Why not just do a referendum? If Canadians don't like our current anthem, maybe they'd prefer The Maple Leaf Forever? or The Star Spangled Banner? :-)

    But I think we have better things to do with our time...especially on Canada Day! That beer CAN turn bad y'know.... hate to waste it!

    Happy CANADA Day everyone! :-)
  150. stand up mimi from Canada writes: Hi Joseph - Nobody is ranting but you, and you prove my point nicely. However, I don't judge all atheists by the rude behaviour of a few. Nor should all Christians be judged by the rude behaviour of a few. Anyway, Happy Canada Day, everyone.

    PS - What's a 'fabblist'? I haven't heard of that religion.
  151. Tom From Ottawa from Canada writes: Enough already!!!! Can we please leave some of the characteristics and traditions of this Country alone. Not everything has to change to accommodate the whims and perceived slights to every single citizen of the Country. There are few Countries on this planet as accommodating and accepting as Canada, and we prove that time and again. Leave the National Anthem alone for the love of Mike (and if I have been culturally insensitive to all the Mike's out there......my apologies).
  152. PC from Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: I think Mr. Higgins correctly identifies the problem, the inclusion of 'God' in any national vocabulary is and has been used to define a people as theologically specific and with that comes intolerance and an excuse or reasoning by political authorities to validate their judgments and decisions. Show me a country where this isn't the case.

    The US may have given us the idea of separation of Church and State but they do not lead by example. The concept however is firmly grounded in Canadian culture and it is why we are in fact so multicultural. The act of freely practicing one's own religion relies on the society (judiciary and legislature) being inherently secular.

    I fear for any country that relies on 'a' God for its security, let alone its governance. The Church (Catholic and Protestant) in Canada though no doubt well meaning has a sad track record that unfortunately continues to this day. Furthermore the atrocities committed worldwide in the name of religion exacerbate the need to remove God from the inner workings of our society.

    I do not suggest removing God from our country, quite the contrary, but I believe that in order to have true freedom of religion, or free thinking in general, one must first have a nation that is 'officially' free of religion.

    All religions are inherently at odds with Canadian society and its laws, whether it be abortion, homosexuality, criminal justice, race, women's rights, foriegn policy, the environment, trade, education... We can respect the right of any group to challenge our societal values, but by including God in our national anthem or any where else, it presupposes that a God of any faith, and the group that espouses him/her has more validity than those who believe that Canada, its people, its values, its governance and laws need to be protected from rather than by religion of any kind.

  153. Bob Beal from Edmonton, Canada writes: Personally, I don't much care whether God is in the anthem or not. But The Globe should have pointed out that God was inserted into the anthem in 1980, under the Trudeau government.
  154. Stewart Baker from Ottawa, Canada writes: I find O Canada to be a dull, boring and repetitive dirge . It was written by a Quebecer, so I guess that gave it brownie points. I suggest that the original version of the Maple Leaf For Ever (historicaly correct) would be a far better national anthem. The Quebecers wouldn't like it, but they are the reason for the loss of all our historic symbols, so who cares?
  155. Kilgore Trout from So it goes ..., Canada writes: To Richard McAllister: Your jealous God is of course your own opinion. Mine is that if a God is jealous, then he or she or whatever is a failed God and not worth the bother. Why, well those who need to resort to violence or fear to convince people of their truth have essentially admitted their own fallacies and isn't God supposed to be infallible?
  156. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Most Canadian's may not be offended by removing God from our national anthem because we hardly have any thing to do with religion. However, we are inviting many into the country who have very strong religious leanings specially Muslims, Hindus.

    If I am not wrong in India there has been a very strong opposition to their national anthem being played or sung in certain Muslim dominated states and the Indian government being such a large democratic nation did not think it was necessary to remove references to God or Godess just because a group thought it was not necessary. I am told most immigrants do not like take our citizenship oath because there are certain references and they do not like them. They simply keep their mouth shut instead taking the oath. If so why are they here. Did not they know prior to arriving here that Canada was founded on Christian foundation ?

    My view is there is limit to accomodating every one's wish. Canada has identity and it should remain as is and it should not be changed to accomodate each and every individual that walks into our country. If people are not comfortable to references to God in our national anthem then it is their problem and they should not come into our country.
  157. Kilgore Trout from So it goes ..., Canada writes: To stand up mimi : Zealots of any cause are as you say, basically trouble waiting to happen. Society would be better off if we could find a way to minimize the damage they do.
  158. murphy kierans from County Monaghan, Ireland writes: To destroy or eradicate the word 'God' within our Canadian national anthem is to ignore history, culture and tradition. But most importantly the action would insult those persons who uphold many religious faiths. Does that not defeat the purpose here? Respect FOR ALL PEOPLE ?
  159. Politically Incorrect from Londonstan, United Kingdom writes: God and the Europeans created Canada, so YES God should still keep Canada. Canada was created as a Christian country and should remain so for many years to come.
  160. Hans Ulster from Low Earth Orbit, Canada writes: Damien Lee from Peterborough, Canada writes: Removing wording about religion in our national anthem makes sense due to our increasingly multicultural society, but what removing sexist wording as well? 'All our sons' command'...

    I'd say if we overhaul it at all, we might as well take care of all business at once, and remove the sexism as well as religious wording.

    -------------------------

    True. We should remove all references to god or sex. Further, any references to our history or willing to use arms should be stripped. I also recommend that it not be sung in either English or French, so that our new immigrants aren't offended. In fact, I recommend a 30-second hum that is non-offensive to anyone! That is the new Canada. Next, we need to tackle the textbooks.
  161. Hans Ulster from Low Earth Orbit, Canada writes: Sev Scott from calgaristan, Canada writes: Get rid of it. Trudeau and his multiculturalism requires that we do not stand up for anything French or English, and thus, not anything at all. Get rid of the maple leaf too, and the RCMP, and anything else that has anything to do with the two founding nations. Let's bring in sharia too, and stop all comedy festivals, and magazine freedoms.

    -----------------------------

    Well, a few Muslims did try to shut down Macleans and silence Mark Steyn. It seems as if our multicultural paradise is breaking down and some of our newcomers don't even understand something as fundamental as freedom of the press. My guess is that a few folks like that would rejoice if we were to edit our history for something more palatable to them.
  162. robert white from Canada writes: what i posted earlier about who put god in the anthem and when has not been answered. Lester pearson changed the flag, did he change the anthem also? You can bet Trudeau did not put it in, that pinko!!!, So who did it and for what reason, cause it sure caused a storm here!! I personally don't care if G-d is in it. I love canada and today is my day to remember whom I AM and who we are as a nation,and i will sing it as i remember it.
  163. Miguel Maiquez from Toronto, Canada writes: Even if I believe in God, what if I don't believe in an interventionist God? 'God, keep our land...'... I dont know if there is a God (no one can prove it anyway, and no one can prove the contrary, for the matter), but if there is, I doubt He or She or It is going to intervene in our business. As humans and, o yeah, as Canadians (lots of places to go first if yoo wanna put an end to wars and famine) I'm afraid we have to solve our own problems.
    Can we please keep those things for our own minds and fot the way we behave to our neighbours? Secularism is not atheism. Is about respect.
    By the way, I don't believe that Canada is 'our' land. All lands belongs to all humans.
  164. Rain Couver from Canada writes: The fact that people are saying 'god keep our land, glorious and free' is kind of a lie.

    Wether you believe in the god fairy tale or not, it has been nature and man that has kept Canada glorious and free. Wether you are religious or not, it takes away from the hard work and sacrifices our ancestors have experienced to make Canada as great as it is, and then turn the reins over to god. Lets face it, it won't be god that will keep Canada glorious and free, it will be the hard work of Canadian people. Quite frankly I don't want my hard work to try to make Canada better than it is right now to be credited to some nebulous ghost concept.

    If you want to keep god in the anthem, at least put it in lyrics that make sense, like 'thanks for your inspiration.' I don't have a problem with people believing in god, but to assign all the credit of those who may or may not is arrogant presumption. Let us explore our differences and celebrate our similarities without the fear of segregation.
  165. bill wilson from Taiwan writes: the use of 'god' in the national anthem should be removed. It is offensive to the significant minority of Canadians that do not believe in the fairy tales of religion. It also a rude reminder of how religion was used to control society in the past, a control whose absolute hold has now been broken with representative democracy. It is time to push it the rest of the way out.
  166. Robert Bott from Calgary, Canada writes: Thank goodness (or Gaia?) you included Justin Trottier in the panel.
  167. Paul Smith from Stratford, Canada writes: The word 'God' should be removed from our national anthem. Why? Because plain and simply THERE IS NO GOD!
    For the past 2000 years the Christians have been ranting on about the return of Christ (the son of God) and how he is going to save us all.
    Well, where is he? Quite frankly I think we've given him long enough. The verdict is in - he's a no show. Why? Because he never was the son of God, he was just another cult leader trying to exert his influence over his fellow men and women.
    Christians hold onto this because it's all they have left, the threat of Jesus return and ultimate power is all they have left to exert their influence - just look at some of the religious postings on here. The control they once had is slipping from their greasy, greedy fingers and they are scared. Their 'morality' is showing and there is not much love there. Indeed the Christian morality is full of hatred, greed and power.
    Yes, it is time to take 'God' out of our anthem. It is time to take 'God' out of our world. It is time to embrace real enlightenment, to feel real love and to truly love your neighbor, regardless of their sexual preference, regardless of their color, and regardless of their willingness to serve you.
  168. Paul Smith from Stratford, Canada writes: R Hamel from Red Lake, Canada writes: That is the whole problem in our land in society. The Bible says God will heal our land if we pray and ask Him. Were too proud and evil to invoke the powerful name of God. In the schools in the 1950-60's we said the Lord's prayer everyday. We did nor have violence nor guns in our school. We did not have AIDS. Divorce and the breakdown of the family was rare. Am I making the connection? Why do we remove God from our schools and then wonder why there is so much violence? God has the solution for violence, sexuality, pollution control, and family life? When we remove God we remove His influence and protection from our nation.

    That's right thanks to our prayers the world was a much safer place back then. Oh! Wait a minute! What about that Holocaust business? That was a damn shame wasn't it? You know I think the prayers were just not getting through then. Or maybe they were! Did you pray for the holocaust to happen? I know the pope sent Hitler a birthday card.
  169. Dan L from Dan L, Canada writes: Let's replace the word 'God' in our anthem with the words 'Tooth Fairy,' or 'Santa Claus,' or 'Zeus,' because, well, what's the difference? There's the same amount of proof for the existence of each.
  170. Derick Dong from Vancouver, Canada writes: I just want to leave it as is; God keep our land....
    Reprinting all that sheet music and books, (an environmentally unfriendly); getting permission from the writer's or his estate, spending valuable Parliamentary time debating it while wonder how much that costs per hour, and getting down to relearning the new word 'Lord keep our land....'
  171. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: More than 95% of countries have references to God in their national anthem and I am sure they are not change their references if we go into their countries. Majority of countries have issues only when muslim groups raise this issue and I have not heard of any country which changed their national anthem based on these demands.

    My question here is would a muslim or a hindu nation change its national anthem if some christians go and demand ? I don't think they would. If so why are we even discussing this subject.
  172. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: As an atheist, I would have expected to agree most with Mr Trottier, but I found Professor Higgins presented the most compelling argument. Most of the panel wrongly focused on the relationship between church and state, while failing to make the point that this is a matter of simple symbolism with no explicit consequences. To argue 'I think the state should be more religious' or 'I think the state should be less religious' misses that important distinction.

    To me the symbol means nothing. To most it can be interpreted in some comforting fashion. In the end it is a waste of time to be debating this extensively.

    I hope that one day Canadians can stop worrying so much about superstition and supernatural scare stories, and focus exclusively on ending suffering and promoting happiness for everyone in this brief window of existence. At that time we could remove the reference, or not remove it, and people wouldn't much care.

    But that's not today, so let's focus on important things instead.
  173. David Kowbel from Kensington, United States writes: This is a non-argument. Our laws are totally entrenched in Judah/Christian morals for better or worse. You can't escape it even if you are an atheist. If we remove 'God' from our social framework, then we should just call Canada a failed country, scrap our whole legal system and form of government and start all over again. Maybe that is the whole point that opponents of 'God' want. Sounds silly, but so does the 'God' argument.
  174. stand up mimi from Vancouver, Canada writes: Rain Couver from Canada writes: 'Wether you believe in the god fairy tale or not, it has been nature and man that has kept Canada glorious and free. Wether you are religious or not, it takes away from the hard work and sacrifices our ancestors have experienced to make Canada as great as it is, and then turn the reins over to god.' Our hard working ancestors would disagree with you. Those who believed in God saw hard work and sacrifice as their duty to God, who in turn would enable their work to come to fruition. It was not simply 'inspiration' as you put it, but guidance and protection. And for those of our ancestors who were Christians, trusting in God did not devalue their hard work, but gave it meaning and direction. They fully understood that all good things come from God, but that did not mean they sat back and waited to be showered with them. To them, refusing to acknowledge God's provision would have been arrogant presumption indeed. So it is misleading to suggest that our ancestors - most of them, anyway - would want all the credit for their sacrifice assigned to them alone, even if today, you would like all the credit for the work you do. I'm not saying you shouldn't take that credit, as it is in keeping with your beliefs. But you can't assume the same is true of those in the past.
  175. Ernie Richards from Barrie, Canada writes: The inclusion of religious wording in a national anthem is extremely misguided. There are many citizens of Canada, myself included who are disenfranchised by this. I do not respect the anthem as it is discriminatory.

    In the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, there are many rights illustrated but I will point out one right in particular. The right to freedom of religion.

    This means that all citizens have the right to practice any religion they choose, even if it is non-Christian. Another way of looking at this is that all citizens are also free to choose no religion and to be free of all encumbrances by any religion or religious dogma.

    Therefore I submit that the national anthem of Canada is in breach of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The anthem must be reworded to be exclusively secular.
  176. Eric of Windsor from Canada writes: To all those who believe there is no God ...... please explain to me why every people group throughout recorded history has felt so strongly that there is something, somewhere greater than life itself...that they had to worship, praise, perform rituals, make idols of and make laws.... to honor and revere what they know, deep within themselves that there is something greater than mankind and all of the visible and invisible world. So come on all you non believers of God or a god where is your proof otherwise that stacks up even slightly against the recorded history of mankind. Leave the anthem alone and let God do what He promises.
  177. Michael Joseph from London Ontario, Canada writes: Best Answer! I like the reply that said, 'True. We should remove all references to god or sex. Further, any references to our history or willing to use arms should be stripped. I also recommend that it not be sung in either English or French, so that our new immigrants aren't offended. In fact, I recommend a 30-second hum that is non-offensive to anyone! That is the new Canada. Next, we need to tackle the textbooks. '.
  178. rock rock from toronto, Canada writes:
    Canada is a multicultural country. I do not like the way Canada is.

    I want it to be like the country I came from:

    remove christmas trees from government buildings

    remove God from the anthem

    remove portraits of the Queen from banknotes

    change official languages of Canada and add all the languages spoken in Canada to the list

    ....

    ....

    ...

    Oh, yeah. I feel like at home now.
  179. Derek Pyne from Toronto, Canada writes: “Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: Question: If we have no reference to God; in any form. Let us say our National Song, then do we remove the Bible from the law courts? And if we do remove the Bible from the Law courts what do we replace it with, if anything at all? Are we to still swear or afirm witnesess? Or just let liars rule the day, with no punishment at all; because from that day foward liars do rule the day. Possibly even though the actual book remains in the court room today, its aimpact has lost all meaning. 'Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth any nothing but the turth so help your God.' After saying those words and having placed your right hand on the Bible in a Canadian Law Court. Would you or would you not still be capable of voicing a 'falsehood'? A 'Perjury'. Remove God, I believe and God will give you over to what ever other god or deamon, you wish. ThanK you.” ______________________________________________________________________ Putting aside the fact that nonChristians don’t have to swear on a bible in court, it is interesting that you argue that it is the only thing that keeps Christians from lying in Court. I will take your word as a representative of Christians that you would lie in court if you believed a mythical being would only punish you if you did so after swearing on a bible. I hope that most Christians are more honest but perhaps I’m being naďve and should be more careful in future business dealings with them. If Christians are as dishonest as you claim, perhaps it is best to deal with people of other religious and atheists instead, just to be safe.
  180. The Work Farce from Canada writes: Shocking and appalling the numbers of Canadian religionists hostile to Canadians who doubt the existence of God. I've also been very surprised in recent years to realize the large numbers of war nuts. They've both sort of snuck up on people while we were struggling to survive. They, no doubt, would cite our struggle to survive along with their prosperity, as certain signs that God has chosen to favour them but not us, and, therefore, excellent reasons why we should not survive. Unless we're interested in becoming supplicant converts to their religion, right? Like the First Nations aboriginals, eh? Judao-Christian ethics, for the most part, have stood the tests of time, science, reason and the exigencies of mankind on the brink; belief in God has not. I'm always tolerant of those who choose to worship God in private; but I realize that even that personal private belief in fairy tales is always held over my head like a sword against my beliefs, principles, values, ethics and morality. Religion, like war, politics and economics, is nasty business. The less of it in the public square the better.Truly the sages have taught mankind cannot be unconditionally free and unified when encumbered with institutions like religion. It's no co-incidence since the reactionary return of religion to Canada these last three decades, that Canadians are more conflicted and less unified, more isolated and alienated, less compassionate and friendly, more materialistic and less spiritual.
  181. SN Dream from Canada writes: Jill M from Vancouver, Canada writes: I'm a first-generation Canadian. My parents immigrated to Canada in the 1980s and I was born in Canada.

    To sing the Canadian national anthem brings me great joy and appreciation of what Canada stands for. I sing it loudly.

    In my opinion, seeing as how the reference to God is already vague as it is, to remove it from the anthem seems far more exclusionary -- the desire of fundamental secularists and anti-theists alone -- than to leave it.
    ------------------------------------
    The word 'God' use in capitalized form are clearly referring to the god in Christianity sense. The majority of Muslim don't related the word 'God' with Allah.
  182. G L from Thunder Bay ON, Canada writes: Yes,God? keep our land,but no to God? saving the Queen(at least not in Canada).All new immigrants should be swearing(not literaly) aliegiance to our country and flag.As should all members of parliament including the Bloc(now wouldn't that be interesting?),and Yes GOD? please keep our land Canada,( gloriousand free, Happy Birthday Canada!
  183. CD W from Canada writes: God is not named, let all Canadians of good will sing his praise. And I mean this for Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and every one else. And I would remind folks, that there are no atheists in foxholes, and if you intend to seek God at the 11th hour, you will probably die at 10:30.
  184. sam johnson from Canada writes: what a great idea for an online debate. i submit something and you'll let me know if it will be posted within 24 hrs.
    maybe you could get some online chess and we could find out the results in about 300 yrs.!
    really great idea.
  185. David Jenkins from Kelowna, Canada writes: Really; given the very critical issues facing our country - not the least of which is its continued existence as a nation - I'm appalled that we can waste time debating this non-issue. But then again this seems to be the Canadian way - fiddle while Rome burns.
  186. Canadian in the US from United States writes: Canada seems to be stuck in 'half-way-there' mode when it comes to secularism.

    We go out of our way to protect freedom of religion on the one hand, but then turn around and fund Catholic schools and keep Christian references in our anthems and in our parliamentary procedures.

    IMHO, the question is not so short-sighted as 'should God be in our anthem' - rather it's a much deeper question: 'should Canada be a secular state'.

    If yes, then let's get on with it and make it so - which means wide-reaching implications and will involve lall kinds of legislative changes.

    If not, then we should PUBLICLY declare that Canada is a Christian state.

    ... but ENOUGH of this middle-of-the-road stuff. It's divisive, and has everyone believe they're in the right.

    ------

    My own personal view on the matter is that Canada SHOULD be secular, and that we should get on with the work required to make it completely and officially so.

    Those who believe Christian references should be preserved either don't care, or don't understand, the arrogance of their position.
  187. Kent Lewis from Toronto, Canada writes: bill wilson from Taiwan wrote: the use of 'god' in the national anthem should be removed. It is offensive to the significant minority of Canadians that do not believe in the fairy tales of religion.

    Too hilarious that someone posing as one Bill Wilson would object to the use of the word God [decapitation his, not mine].

    Offensive? Why? Look at someone the wrong way these days and you get shot. Choose to take offense, and you give your power away, for what it's worth.

    People up in arms over thanking God for keeping our land glorious and free? How typically, uh, Canadian.... Take time to be grateful for what you have here in Canada, and you will not waste one second wringing your hands over something you'd die for the luxury of whining over in most of the rest of the planet.

    We're starting to sound like those whiny, lazy USAnians....
  188. K Kal from Canada writes: what a waste of time and money

    this is just as stupid as when some places call the christmas tree the holiday tree

    lol
  189. Righteous Indignation from Somewhere, Canada writes: I think we should retain the reference to God in our national anthem, being ever mindful that however we humans may define the term, that mysterious and ineffable Being is far vaster than the sum total of all our religions.
  190. Miles Linklater from Vancouver, Canada writes: As a non-believer in God I can understand other non-believers' desires to remove the reference; however, may I ask how often ANY of us actually have occasion to sing the National Anthem? It would seem to be a very small issue to most of us, and we are always free to sing the 'alternate' (original) words in place of 'God keep our land'. Thankfully Canada is not a country who's identity rests on muscled nationalism (unlike our American neighbours). Happy Canada Day!
  191. Kent Lewis from Toronto, Canada writes: bill wilson from Taiwan wrote: the use of 'god' in the national anthem should be removed. It is offensive to the significant minority of Canadians that do not believe in the fairy tales of religion.

    Hey I thought Bill Wilson was all for 'God as we understood him..' ;-) Sorry, another Bill Wilson..[founder of Alcoholics Anonymous]

    Really folks, let's take Canada Day to spend at least 1/365.25 of a year being GRATEFUL for the gazillions of reasons why this is one of the best, if not the best, countries in the history of the world, in which to live. Those who choose to take offense at something which in no way can possibly affect their psychological nirvana unless THEY CHOOSE to dwell on minutiae, need to do a sharp 180 and stop sounding like , well, typically whiny Canadians.
  192. leah seaman from Inuvik, Canada writes: I am far less concerned about the 'god' reference which could certainly be construed by many as ecumenical. What bothers me as I sing 'Oh Canada' as I did today, is the sexism. I cannot believe that the official English version continues to be written and sung 'in all our 'sons' command'. Many years of linguistic research has demonstrated that neither women nor men, boys nor girls, think of both women and men when only the male gender is used in language. The United Church and others have re-written many songs and hymns in inclusive language. Why does our national anthem persist in excluding half of the population?

    Leah Seaman
    Inuvik NWT
  193. Arthur Cross from Toronto, Canada writes: I have no problem with the word 'God' because in that verse, it has no context and can therefore be interpreted in different ways. I see it in a pantheist light... 'a non-supernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings.' as Richard Dawkins put it.

    The later verses.. are different but they're not sung much so I'm not bothered.
  194. Cindy Swoveland from Vancouver, Canada writes: Funny - I was a child in the United States when the words 'under god' were added to the Pledge of Allegiance and, just a couple of years after I became a Canadian citizen, 'God keep our land...' was added to the Canadian national anthem. Even though I am an atheist, I really don't have trouble with these words...after all, most people, even atheists, say things like 'Oh my god!' from time to time! Personally, I am more bothered by the 'native land' which excludes all of us who are immigrants and even more bothered by 'thy sons', which is sexist! However, I do feel pride when I hear the Canadian national anthem...that is the important thing.
  195. Richard McAllister from Abbotsford, B.C, Canada writes: Kilgore Trout from So it goes...., Canada writes: To Richard McAllister:
    Your jealous God is of course your own opinion. Mine is that if a God is jealous, then he or she or whatever is a failed God and not worth the bother. Why, well those who need to resort to violence or fear to convince people of their truth have essentially admitted their own fallacies and isn't God supposed to be infallible?

    God ultimately is Holy and beyond our comphrehension, we try to put God in a box but there is no box big enough.
    I am not a theologian by any means. But what I see in the majority of these comments is one common thread , and it is anger, bitterness and resentment ( everything I have experienced in trying to come to terms with God ) is this all about God or something else.
    As far as our anthem is concerned, leave as it is, it can't be reshaped every other year because of an opinion poll.
  196. James Marshall from Collingwood, Ont., Canada writes: While we have tried to stamp 'God' out of everything else Canadian, isn't it time we stood up for at least a few of our traditions. God isn't only Christian, it is a Supreme Being to all Faiths. When are Full-time Canadians going to stand up for what has made our Country great and the reason for so many others from far-off lands wanting to come here to take up residence.
  197. David Richards from Lethbridge, Canada writes: The question begs the reality. Rather it should read, 'Why should God keep this land, when the people of this land have rejected Him?'
  198. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: REV eighteenseventeen at 2:57am -

    reference my post 11:53pm

    Please enlighten me?

    You tell me Zeitgeist has errors but like everyone else, you don't state what they are?

    Zeitgeist does not present a belief system, it's a movie that presents some facts & some opinions. It allows the viewer to draw their own conclusions based on this information. Zeitgeist gets plenty of criticism, but there's yet to be anyone dispute what is being presented.

    The sad part is, people like yourself end up confirming what's being said in Zeitgeist because when you claim it's incorrect, you have nothing to backup your claim, no proof to the contrary.

    To me Zeitgeist simply confirms what I already believe about religion!

    God's a different story, what created the universe? Was it a God or was it something else altogether? When we die do we go to heaven & God, another plan of existence or simply no longer exist.

    There is one thing I'm very confident about & that's if there is a God, he, she or it would let each & everyone of us know if there was something required of us. God wouldn't need others to do his biding!
  199. Joe xyz from Canada writes: This isn't about immigrants or diversity, it's about atheist fundamentalists who dote on Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, and who want to wield their radical atheism as a weapon to destroy our traditions. Fact is, anthems are generally written in poetic, flowery terms, and for an atheist who is anything more than a robot, it should not be too much of a stretch to understand that 'God keep our land...' can be interpreted metaphorically as 'May good luck keep our land...', because it is a recognition that the our fate is not entirely within our control, that there are forces more powerful than humanity, e.g. hurricanes, earthquakes, and plagues, and that it is a statement of our humility and vulnerability, one that keeps our patriotrism from degenerating into collective narcissism and self-worship. People who are unable to express humility will end up worshipping themselves, or worshipping the state. With the Maoist revolution and the Soviet revolution alike, STEP ONE was 'Burn down the Churches and all other houses of worship!' Since the world now knows that communist revolutions are always a disaster, the same totalitarian mentalities have switched to trying to destroy our traditions one brick at a time, or, in this case, one word at a time. Frankly, if the anthem is re-written, I'd bet that more than half of Canadians would not only refuse to sing it, not only refuse to stand up for it, but would probably boo all the way through it. Changing it would be stupid. Even thinking about changing it is absurd.
  200. Jonathan Braun from Vancouver, Canada writes: If this is what we argue about on a daily basis... We MUST live in a great country.
  201. Joe Liberali from Canada writes: Kev Jack from United States writes: Start removing God and your country will go down hill quickly!

    Your country provides the counter-example to this proposition.
  202. Joe Liberali from Canada writes: The Maestro from Canada writes: She interprets 'because you can carry a sword you can carry a cross' as a reference to the crusades. I don't think that is how it was intended. I think it means that if you can fight, you can carry on God's peaceful work. ... But just as she sees badness in something others see as innocuous, can she not understand that an atheist or anti-theist would consider any reference to a deity to be non-benign?

    Keep in mind Maestro, only ONE of the Abrahamic religions actually recognizes Jesus as God. And the symbol of the cross specifically and only refers to this individual.
  203. Mahatma Gandhi from Canada writes: Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: Question: If we have no reference to God; in any form. Let us say our National Song, then do we remove the Bible from the law courts? And if we do remove the Bible from the Law courts what do we replace it with, if anything at all? Are we to still swear or afirm witnesess? Or just let liars rule the day, with no punishment at all; because from that day foward liars do rule the day. Possibly even though the actual book remains in the court room today, its aimpact has lost all meaning. 'Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth any nothing but the turth so help your God.' After saying those words and having placed your right hand on the Bible in a Canadian Law Court. Would you or would you not still be capable of voicing a 'falsehood'? A 'Perjury'. Remove God, I believe and God will give you over to what ever other god or deamon, you wish. ThanK you.

    So the only reason you don't lie and cheat is because you're afraid of going to hell after you die? I don't think much of your character, if that's the case.
  204. Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: ))))))Barry Spence from Canada writes: Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: 'Question: If we have no reference to God; in any form. Let us say our National Song, then do we remove the Bible from the law courts? And if we do remove the Bible from the Law courts what do we replace it with, if anything at all? Are we to still swear or afirm witnesess?' Entirely separate issue, Mr. Toth. Neither a Bible nor any other holy book is required for a witness to affirm that s/he will testify truthfully. Courts in Canada have the Bible, the Torah, the Koran and holy books or artifacts of other religions available for use in the swearing of witnesses. A witness is free to use the symbol of his/her choosing, or to affirm, using no symbol whatever. (((((( _______________________________________________________ So Barry Spence; 'when I made that statement I believed it to be true.' 'The statement I believed to be a lie actually was the truth, but remains a lie.' 'Although I was telling the truth at the time of answering your question I now recant the satement; can you please repeat the question again, for the record. Thank you.' Get the Picture; Barry. Mad Magazine will do quite nicely, I see what you had in mind. Your not a lawyer, by chance are you?
  205. Mary Smith from United States writes:

    None of my business but...

    Man is imperfect; always has been and always will be. Those who put all of their faith solely in the abilities of man can only fail. How can that not be a fact? Man has a spiritual side; That is also a fact. It has been documented that prayer helps those who are sick, those in distress, etc. How or why or whatever is irrelevant. There are never-ending stories related to the positive effect of a faith higher than man's abilities. It is when we rely solely on our own impulses, feelings, desires, etc., that get us into trouble. Are we so arrogant to believe the woefully imperfect man has all the answers? It has been shown in the States that people of faith with much less materially-wise, give more than those who are wealthy but are secular. Their faith compels them and they are rewarded themselves. I'm not saying those without faith cannot feel compelled to do good, yet they do it less. Whatever compels them does not seem to be as influential. And I'm not interested in the wealthy. It's easy to give when there's virtually zero sacrifice. Values in general seem to be falling by the wayside. People of faith seem to hold onto to their values better. I'm sticking with them and God.
  206. Gord Addison from Squamish, BC, Canada writes: What to make of the comments from those who tell myself, and probably a million or so Canadian born atheists to 'go back where we came from'. It is more that a little problematic, and bigoted.

    The inclusion of god in the constitution and national anthem in the 1980's was the result of the political quid-pro-quo Trudeau had to undertake to get the other powers that be to sign on.

    I am glad we are at least having this debate - I have commented that it should be the case in the past.
  207. A D from Canada writes: Hey, Tshweu Moleme Canada has very little to learn from your country....unless you want people to learn how extreme violence works, perhaps what are the most efficient methods to spread AIDS among young people or other SA lifestyles.
    For the rest of non-religious people that wrote all these non sense....please remember when something really bad happened in your life....I can bet that those unused words (Oh please God help me.......and other variations) suddenly appeared in your vocabulary. and for those multiculturalists hardliners...the word GOD is related to the existance of a supreme Being....not to a Judeo-Christian (and muslim too, for those who are unaware) tradition. I believe the idea is to integrate people not to create barriers among people. eventually people will integrate better instead of consider themselves...XXXX-Canadian.
    Cheers!!!
  208. The Work Farce from Canada writes: The concept of God is a fairy tale used to scare the gullible into submission. It's also a weapon religionists use to scare dissenters into submission. And a drug religionists use to delude themselves. Humanity cannot move forward into reality and unity while encumbered by the old baggage of religion.
  209. Brad Reddekopp from Hazelton, British Columbia, Canada writes: I really couldn't care less about any national anthem. I just want to remind everyone of some really good news: God is just pretend.
  210. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: Secular states require secular language in their laws and their anthems. We are NOT a religious state, and although we still have a long way to go before properly separating church and state, removing such references is a good start.

    As for those who claim that 'totalitarian' regimes start with the removal of religious terms, I'd like to note that the vast majority of totalitarian regimes on the planet have so far been religious-backed regimes.

    Religion is, after all, nothing more than means to control people, and means to hide tremendous injustice behind a veneer of respectability. It was the religions who kept women as chattel for centuries, and even now argue for the return of that state of affairs. Even today it is mainly the religious that burn books, invade lands, enslave others, and deliberately destroy lives and cultures all in the name of their self-proclaimed 'gods of love'. Hiding behind 'freedom of religion' tremendous injustices are committed every day. It is time for us to disassociate ourselves from that reality and move on.

    So yes, let's remove traces of this archaic and damaging element from our anthem. Let's move forward towards a place where 'freedom of association' and 'freedom of belief' are enough, without the evil that is 'organized religion', and the controlling and fascist model that these entail. Let's start by not trying to force one group's version of 'Truth' down the throats of anyone who wants to sing our anthem and really mean what they're saying.
  211. Nancy Botwin from hamilton, Canada writes: God no!, references to fairy tales shouldn't be part of the anthem
  212. Carl C. from Montreal, Canada writes: Pathetic, simply pathetic... Political correctness runs wild once again. Of course, lets remove all our symbols so we have a history neutral, people neutral, and simply neutral symbols that do not mean anything to anyone... We cannot simply change the symbols of Canada on a whim like that... if it needs to be changed, a large consensus and a referendum should be required. The founders of modern Canada are the French and English, who were, at that time, people who believed in a supreme entity, removing this reference would be treason to those founders...

    BTW: I also think that Natives should also be recognized as founders of Canada, even if they are not founders of 'modern' Canada per say...

    Enough is enough debate in English-Canada, i really think political correctness has gone MUCH TOO far... Wake up, and try not to forget the identity of Canada please.
  213. Carl C. from Montreal, Canada writes: @Hans Ulster from Low Earth Orbit, Canada : I fully agree with your statements, if people cannot accept Canada's identity as it is and was, as well as if they cannot accept who founded modern Canada, then i think Canada is in deep trouble. It seems to be the case, sadly enough...
  214. F/A josquin from Canada writes:

    there is no god
  215. Brent Herman from Merritt, BC, Canada writes: The line, 'God keep our land...', presupposes that it is our land. The land, of course, has been taken from the First Nations. For argument's sake we can suppose Canada did belong to Euro and native Canadians when the song was written. Through the condensation of ownership of mainstream media, memberships in the G-8 and the World Bank, NAFTA and other trade deals, most of Canada belongs to directors, executive officers and major stockholders of (cheifly US) multinational corporations and the banks. Therefore, the song is also disingenuous with the continuation of the line when appealing to a higher authority, God, to keep our land 'glorious and free'. There is no glory in stealing land from the rightful owners, then giving our freedom to do what we want with it away to others.

    We can test how glorious and free we truly are just by giving notice that American retail outlets must start packing and by stopping the flow of oil and other Canadian resources south. If this were done tomorrow, how long would Canada last?

    Happy Canada Day
  216. Nassar Ben Houdja from Canada writes: Heaven help the politically correct, for they know not what stoopidity they utter.
  217. Dwight Jones from Vancouver, Canada writes: Justin makes good points, but Humanism is about more than arguing about religion. It's about taking pride in our species and its governance. Within that aegis, First Nations peoples have to admit they belong to our species too, and be responsible with regard to trapping and hunting that is barbaric in the modern age.

    Nationalism must give way to support for the UN. Where's their (our?) UN anthem in this picture, if we must look at the grand picture? Uproot tradition? Sure. But uproot it all and share one world together.
  218. zippy gunbreath from France writes: I have not sung the national anthem since the word god was added in the 80's.
    The Enlightenment, Holocaust theology, Liberation theology and the preferential option for the poor may have all contributed to a new vision of what god means in our society, but the worship of a god by any definition is an ideology, and all ideologies create victims.
    Whatever anyone's relationship with the infinite or the spiritual world might be, the word god has been used as a weapon by the power elite too many times in the past 2 thousand years to be accepted by the non-believing community as neutral and inoffensive.
  219. Mr X from Edmonton, Canada writes: Christianity is part of our culture and our identity. I don't care if people believe it in or not I'm tired of people trying to change this country into other countries. I'm tired of losers trying to tell me we have to have a spirit tree because you can't say Christmas tree or saying the 'the holiday season' so nobody gets offended by Christmas.

    Christianity has made countries wealther and successful. The only problem with Christianity is that it involves people and people make mistakes and the wrong decisions.
  220. Jim Dick from Chatham, Canada writes: Interesting comments by all. I can only say that I grew up with the original version and cannot sing the new one with the 'god' in it because I can never remember how it goes. Most times when the anthem is sung it is pretty pitiful - I don't think most people know the words very well. Anyway, with the 'god' included it kind of makes me have to choose between my country and god, since I don't believe in god. Very uncomfortable with this 'god' thing in there. If I sing it, then I am a hypocrite. Considering all the evil that belief in god has caused in the world, I can't see the benefit in including it. Every side in a military conflict seems to want the participants to believe that 'god' will favour them. Believe me, give me a bigger gun and to hell with 'god'! I was also taught that 'god' helps those that help themselves, which somewhat negates the essential role of 'god'. A lot of good 'god' did the Jews; obviously, the original owners of the 'god' concept decided that they better assist 'god' a bit, took up arms, and now have a heavily armed Jewish state with nuclear weapons. Not trusting too much in 'god' to help them, are they?
  221. r mc from Toronto, Canada writes: I still will sing our national anthem, but as for the change to it that was made several years ago, I substitute 'We'll keep...' for 'God keep....' The other word just seems silly to me.
  222. Will Partridge from Canada writes: Justin Trottier, do your fellow atheists a favour and either stop trying to represent them or learn how to do so without opening yourself up to a dozen attacks. You pretty much confirmed the stereotypes of atheists being arrogant, smug, know-it-alls with disdain for their own culture.

    There's lots of good reasons to remove references to God from our institutions and laws. You don't need to also paint Canada as oppressive, genocidal, and racist. You certainly don't need to compare your opponents ideas to slavery and the practice of draw-and-quartering. That's the kind of overblown, empty-your-quiver rhetoric which might sound impress in college but everywhere else leaves people thinking 'Who was that jerk? Why should I listen to him?'

    It's true that at least a quarter of Canadians do not believe in any religion. I'm one of them. A shame we can't find better public advocates.
  223. John Hertz from Ottawa, Canada writes: The case for the existence of God should be settled by the Supreme Court. If there is no proof for the existence of God then God should be dumped.

    I do believe that religious people would have a tough time proving God exists.

    You would figure that in the 21st century such superstitions would be gone.
  224. Pamphleteer . from Canada writes: Oh wow, quel surprise! The Globe commissions a group of religious zealots to opine on 'God' in O Canada and they argue to keep in in. Couldn't see that coming!
  225. Martin Fedgrass from Canada writes: Any reference to a mystical being has no place in a so-called free country
  226. Martin Fedgrass from Canada writes: We make such a big deal about pacifying people of religion (and dont forget that we also dont want to piss off the Americans).

    If we really want an anthem truly representative, we would be forced to wear toques, hold a beer and end every sentence in the anthem with 'eh?'
  227. Simon Templar from Vancouver, Canada writes: Debates like this cause me to doubt my pride in my country. Canada was founded in 1867 by the descendents of French and English colonials...not by the natives. Sadly, the natives...who actually migrated here from Asia centuries earlier lost 'their' land by theft, violence, trickery - it doesn't matter. This stuff happens throughout history. Also, the same descendents of French and English colonials were of Christian origin...not Buddhist, Wiccan, or atheist. Our system of laws, of government, and of our way of life borrow heavily from our European and Christian roots and I for one, am happier for it. However, when the time comes that the politically correct are able to re-write history to make it less offensive...or more sensitive to others...when that time comes, you won't have to worry about me ever singing our national anthem again.
  228. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: Before we start dickering with the anthem so as not to offend anybody . . . anybody at all, why don't we just can it altogether and find something nice and neutral by nature. Thus would we avoid the unedifying, craven, and ultimately pathetic process of majority kowtow to the loudest.

    I nominate BTO's 'Four Wheel Drive'.
  229. Jack Mrnsie from Canada writes: here is something I found, if you dont like this i'm sorry

    He says that those who believe in the ways He defines it has eternal life (are saved from their sins and the result = hell and made residents of heaven), but the opposite of faith is the one who does not obey whatever Jesus has said (especially in regards to coming to Him as THE way, THE life, and THE truth for salvation JN 14:6)) and, in fact, is rejecting the Son.

    That's why many so-called Christians will not be going to heaven, along with all Hindis, Muslims, 'good people', church attendees, Mormons, atheists, agnostics, etc.
  230. Jake The Snake from Canada writes: How about instead of 'God keep our land' we switch it to 'Random chance keep our land'? I like it!
  231. Rebel Prince from Berlin, Germany writes: God, shmod. The God business is even sillier than all the American-style Canadian flag waving of recent years, really. Used to be that Canadian pride was an understated, dignified thing; now, the flag's just used to sell hamburgers and gasoline. And take out 'native land'. If there ever was a country where 'native land' was inapplicable to more citizens, it's Canada: land of immigrants par excellence. Must be offensive to the country's real natives as well, but what else is new there. Happy birthday, Canada, and grow up.
  232. Katherine Horvath from Mississauga, Canada writes: God is. God exists to Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and more. God is not simply known to Christians. All people who have faith know God. Christians are those people who believe God sent His only Son Jesus Christ to live as man, die and be resurrected. Christianity is about the saving grace of Jesus Christ and the promise of everlasting life. Canada, thankfully, is not a God-less society but rather God-full. Look around and you will see churches, synagogues, temples and more places of worship. God is part of our life and laws. The debate over The Lord's Prayer is a separante subject entirely. The Lord's Prayer is Jesus' prayer to His and our father. It is definitely Christian -- it is Christ's words. Let's be careful not to confuse the conversation. God keep our land glorious and free. And may God bless us all.
  233. James Medd from Canada writes: 'God keep our land glorious and free...'

    Why do some persons feel the need to submissively rely on a deity for our prosperity and freedom? It's by our own actions and the actions of our fellow citizens -- including a sense of community with other Canadians -- that 'keep our land glorious and free.'

    However, that said, 'God' is a very nebulous concept -- it can mean pretty much anything one likes -- monotheistic religions don't hold a monopoly on how the concept is defined. I see no real need at this time to erase it from the national anthem.
  234. Forest City from London, Canada writes: - Keep the reference to God.
    - Take out the reference to cross.
    - Make it gendre neautral.
    - Make it indian friendly.
  235. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: 'Secularists are wrong when they ask believers to theave their religion at the door before entering the public square...Our Law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian Tradition.' Barak Obama 2008
  236. Bob Cajun from coboconk, Canada writes: If you are offended by our anthem, maybe you deserve to be offended. Pro Patria
  237. Jacob Stuart from Toronto, Canada writes: If you choose to remove references to God and the Cross one need remain aware that, that choice itself, is a claim to a superior knowledge about statements of truth.

    Such an objection is in the name of a religious belief, and not neutral. An anthem with no God in it assumes there is no God, or that God is unknowable, or that there is impersonal force or some other belief itself not proveable, and therefore a religion.

    An anthem without God has, therefore, unproveable, faith assumptions in it as well. Proponents of a Godless anthem believe they have a superior way to view all of life and often, believe the world is best if everyone else dropped their religious views. Such a view is an exclusive claim about the nature of spiritual reality.

    If all such views are to be excluded, then exclude this one as well. If it is not narrow to hold this view, then it is not exclusive to hold a Christian view.

    The comments made here by the 'professionals' are not helpful.
  238. I R from White Rock, BC, Canada writes: Why are we not critical of 'our native land' - potentially a slight on aboriginal Canadians, since it is their land not ours? And what of the sexist language referring to 'all thy sons command', excluding daughters? And what of the images of militarism through 'strong and free' and 'command'?

    Lets face it, where there is rampant patriotism and nationalism, there is oppression in the guise of the national interest. Our national identity is not tied up in flag waving and militaristic parades. Our national identity rejects nationalism. Yes that gives us a peculiar lack of self-confidence, but it also eliminates jingoism.
  239. s like from Canada writes: God as identified in our national anthem is a reflection of our heritage and history. There's no reason to remove references to God and whole debate is much to do about nothing. Who started it?

    Who does it offend? I would like to know? The 5% of atheists who are mostly trying to work out how to be a god themselves? Immigrants? 'God' is more of a generic term so use it in the context you would prefer but really, you knew what this country was about when you came here - period.

    This whole debate is people pleasing of the worst kind. Lets all become opaque and meaningless so as not to offend someone.
  240. Proud Canadian from United States writes: If you don't like the work 'God' then don't let the door hit you on the way out of this country.
  241. Nassar Ben Houdja from Canada writes: After how many thousand years of the enlightened and unsupersticious preaching that religion is ignorance and superstition, religion still exists. The pontificators of enlightenment, proof and reason have done a shabby job of convincing anyone but themselves of their theories.
  242. David Mayerovitch from Ottawa, Canada writes: The infantile plea 'God keep our land glorious and free' turns the national anthem into a national refusal of responsibility. That job is our job.
  243. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: OK. Anotherr idea. Lets just throat sing it, as is.

    That should answer most complaints.
  244. james p from Canada writes: more fancy diction from Higgins, please.
  245. james p from Canada writes: what, for the the love of god is 'irenicism'?
  246. Erik D. from Ottawa, Canada writes: To Winston Churchill : Nice idea, but I nominate Stompin' Tom Connors 'The Hockey Song'.
  247. Fake Name from Canada writes: 'Will Partridge from Canada writes: Justin Trottier, do your fellow atheists a favour and either stop trying to represent them or learn how to do so without opening yourself up to a dozen attacks. You pretty much confirmed the stereotypes of atheists being arrogant, smug, know-it-alls with disdain for their own culture.'

    Indeed ... I saw him speak in person once, introducing the guest speaker at a public science lecture. It was practically enough to make one ashamed of being secular.

    'Jacob Stuart from Toronto, Canada writes: An anthem with no God in it assumes there is no God, or that God is unknowable, or that there is impersonal force or some other belief itself not proveable, and therefore a religion.'

    I see that Fully Moderated conversations are only filtered for offensive language, not being correct. Because that wasn't.

    Does the absence of references to God any other song assert that there is no such being? I should think it pretty obviously doesn't. Why then should the national anthem be different? It's a song about the country, not religion. National patriotism and religious sentiment are simply separate issues; a religion-less anthem makes no statement whatsoever on the existence of any deities. Maybe the religion question is indeed unknowable, but a secular anthem wouldn't be outright saying so.
  248. james p from Canada writes: since god is a manmade concept, no worries.
  249. Michael Toews from Rosenort, Canada writes: I love the comment that Kev Jack left but would like to adjust it. We are leaving God out of our country and we are going down fast. Murders, school shootings, unGodly marriages. Just look around. How can we come close to calling this a christian country? The fact that some are offended by God keep our land is completely ok. God helped us become a free country now we can NOT leave him out of the picture and still expect help and blessings from Him.
  250. Rain Couver from Canada writes: stand up mimi from Vancouver, Canada writes: Our hard working ancestors would disagree with you. Those who believed in God saw hard work and sacrifice as their duty to God, who in turn would enable their work to come to fruition. It was not simply 'inspiration' as you put it, but guidance and protection. And for those of our ancestors who were Christians, trusting in God did not devalue their hard work, but gave it meaning and direction. They fully understood that all good things come from God, but that did not mean they sat back and waited to be showered with them. To them, refusing to acknowledge God's provision would have been arrogant presumption indeed. So it is misleading to suggest that our ancestors - most of them, anyway - would want all the credit for their sacrifice assigned to them alone, even if today, you would like all the credit for the work you do. I'm not saying you shouldn't take that credit, as it is in keeping with your beliefs. But you can't assume the same is true of those in the past.

    >>Again, to think that our ancestors were doing what they did for god and country is arrogant presumption. And even if they did, they were inspired, but it was on the backs of hard working people that this country was built, not some magical creature They might have lived by its rules and laws, but god did not till the soil or build the cities. Also, the number things that were done in the name of god in Canada were horrific. What about the fact that whole indigenous cultures were wiped off the map or forced to become subservient because of religious zealotry? What about the residential schools. As far as Canada is concerned, Canadians have much to be proud of. The religious christian orders do not.
  251. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Why should God's name be removed? All atheists, you are in disaccord with modern science: eversince the Big Bang theory, all cosmologists, physicists, and astrophysicists (incl. Einstein, St. Hawkins, etc.)) agree that the universe was CREATED before app. 13.7 bn years by the introduction of a 'singularity' by s.o./s.th., and that there was NOTHING before the Big Bang.

    On a different note, an anthem reflects the origins of a nation/country, and modern, post-Contact Canada's heritage is rooted in Chrisitianity , from which the universal values governing this country are derived, and on which the Christian civilization is based (the ten commandments, 'the golden rule'). Two hundred years of secular atheism in power (since the French Revolution) have produced mere abstractions and utopias (fraternite, liberte, egalite).
  252. Neil Jamieson-Williams from Burlington, Canada writes: First things first -- context. I am a theist, practicing a form of polytheistic monism. I also remember when the anthem was changed; as other posters have noted, the reference to God wasn't always in our national anthem. This change was part of a political trade-off -- to appease conservative Christians. I am also a scientist, albeit a social scientist (anthroplogy). I didn't agree with the change in the national anthem when it occurred, but it is something that I can live with and not something I would miss if it was removed. As a scientist, I admit that I have no proof for my personal beliefs. At the same time, my religion does not require me to disregard or view as false scientific evidence about the universe and is also non-proselytising i.e. we don't have a mission to convert others to our faith. However, there are religions in this country that do seek, as Ace Frehley put it, 'to once again use the machinery of the state' to push their version of divine truth. And keep in mind that two hundred years ago, the Anglican church in what would become this country was, for all intents and purposes, a state religion. I am not certain that the reference to God in our national anthem is positive for a democratic, pluralistic nation.
  253. Derek Pyne from Toronto, Canada writes: Eric of Windsor from Canada writes: To all those who believe there is no God ...... please explain to me why every people group throughout recorded history has felt so strongly that there is something, somewhere greater than life itself...that they had to worship, praise, perform rituals, make idols of and make laws.... to honor and revere what they know, deep within themselves that there is something greater than mankind and all of the visible and invisible world. So come on all you non believers of God or a god where is your proof otherwise that stacks up even slightly against the recorded history of mankind. Leave the anthem alone and let God do what He promises. I doubt if you are really interested in a serious response to your question of why evolution would lead to people who believe in religious fairytales. However, if you really are interested, it is a good question that scientists are researching. Basically, if it is related to the way human brains are structured, it must be the case that structuring our brains that way, gave our more primitive ancestors some survival value. If you are interested, you could likely get more information by using google scholar. As far as proof that god does not exist, if you understand scientific method, you will understand that you have the question backwards. You cannot prove that Bigfoot does not exist by going out and not finding Bigfoot. Likewise with a god. The burden of proof is on those who claim god or Bigfoot or whatever they being they believe in exists.
  254. PAL SUBBIAH from Oakville, Canada writes: It is bettter to replace the word 'God' with a common word like 'Nature'. The word God is based on belief and every person has a different belief system. We cannot impose a common belief on all citizens. So it is better to remove the word God and replace it with something else or rephrase the whole line.
  255. John C from Toronto, Canada writes: I agree with Ms Khan that reference to God in the anthem acknowledges the sovereignty of God to sustain and protect us.
  256. c. f. from Guelph, Canada writes: Keep the 'GOD' in our anthem. We are a Christian nation by definition although we removed God from our constitution. When forced to leave Canada to work in the USA by Mike Harris' cuts to healthcare, many Americans told me how much they liked our meaningful, understandable, God based anthem. They hate their own which is about the flag etc. Keep our anthem, glorious and free.
    Immigrants don't like it? Sorry you are the newcomer to an established land. I dont' see foreign lands adjusting their anthems to include maple leaf references.
  257. Eric of Windsor from Canada writes: Re: john hertz.....The case for the existence of God should be settled by the Supreme Court. If there is no proof for the existence of God then God should be dumped....................... WOW, man judging God... ultimate arrogance of man. Actualy it is the other way around John. Scriptures of the Bible are carved into doorposts, window frames and rock all around our Parliment buildings and court houses by men and woman who have experienced God in our Canadian history. You cannot erase what man has experienced just because you don't agree with it. God is in every aspect of Canadian culture............ The burden to prove actually lies with you John and all the other people who, at the mention of God are convicted and constantly wrestle with their spirit deep inside and the only way you think you can get freedom from what God put in you is to erase all reference to Him. The burden to prove is at your feet to disprove Gods existence.... so get it right. God is the same... yesterday,today and tomorrow.......like it or not.
  258. Roger Armbruster from Niverville, Canada writes: The secular humanists like to pretend that a reference to 'God' is a divisive, denominational term, when it reality it is a recognition of a transcendent reality that transcends our ethnic and political divisions. It is impossible for the secular humanist to approach this from a purely neutral stance. The important question is what a person accepts as ultimate premises, for that shapes everything that follows. If you press any set of ideas back far enough, eventually you reach some starting point. Something has to be taken as self-existent--the ultimate reality and source of everything else. For the materialist, the ultimate reality is matter, and everything is reduced to material constituents that are determined by natural processes. There is no freewill in that scenario of our ultimate origins, and a river can never rise above its source. Every system of thought begins with some ultimate principle. If it does not begin with God, it will begin with naturalistic, deterministic forces (without freewill) which are capricious, impersonal, and not very caring about what happens to us. This ultimate principle functions as the divine. It is a faith premise, a presupposition, a religious faith upon which everything else rests. Secular humanism has its own faith premises, and it would be helpful if those who want to eliminate God from our National Anthem and from our Charter would have the honesty to acknowledge that they are as religious as anybody else, and their philosophy rests upon faith assumptions and premises that they cannot scientifically prove. The issue is, 'Do we want an ultimate reality in Canada that is impersonal, deterministic, and uncaring, or do we want one that is personal, caring and respectful of human choice?' I see the duplicity in people like Jennifer Harris who says that God is not mentioned in the first verse of R. Stanley Weir's original poem, but she says nothing of the entire fourth stanza which is a prayer.
  259. Peter S from Toronto, Canada writes: I am a Canadian, born and raised, and am offended every time I hear that line of our anthem. I refuse to sing about some non-existent being watching over my country. When I was growing up the line was Oh Canada, glorious and free and that's how it should have remained, without the brainwashed religious goons forcing their beliefs into our national anthem.
  260. Chester Mere from No Fixed Address, Ont, Canada writes: Since the Charter of Rights starts out 'Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God..' it would seem that the anthem is constitutionally valid with respect to including God. Since I have to put up with a lot of garbage resulting from rulings pertaining to the charter, it is only fair that atheists should have the odd disappointment as well. But I am sure they want their way ALL the time.
    Other aspects of the anthem (practically every line) could be of concern to someone. Many Canadians aren't native so should they be singing 'native land'? How about naive instead? 'Standing on guard' could be considered militaristic to peaceniks and other traitors. American style 'patriot love' would bother the anti-US bigots. 'All thy sons' command'- a double whammy: sexist and authoritarian. 'Glowing hearts' causes great discomfort to the anti-nuclear power whackjobs I'm sure. 'See thee rise' infuriates the antiporn activists perhaps. I personally have difficulty with the lines about 'strong and free...glorious and free' as these are what one may call poetic license in the extreme(to be diplomatic).
  261. Carrie-Ann K from Ottawa, Canada writes: Is someone bored? Just leave the anthem alone. Are we going to remove certain words from the dictionary because some may find them 'offensive'? Please. I'm no believer in any god but we have to draw the line somewhere, and quite frankly I'm getting tired of our country bending over backwards to accomodate everyone's interests. It doesn't do anything except make people more resentful and intolerant. No one would dare go to any general religiously fanatical country and demand that their national anthem be neutered. Why do it here? Because we won't shoot you on the spot and drag your body in the streets? Hmm...
  262. sadly no from everywhere, Canada writes: I just spell it GAWD.
    No harm, no foul.
  263. Fake Name from Canada writes: ' c. f. from Guelph, Canada writes: Keep the 'GOD' in our anthem. We are a Christian nation by definition although we removed God from our constitution. '

    1) Whose definition?
    2) There are religious references in the constitution. What more do you want? A special line saying 'CF's religion is the best one'?
  264. The Central Screwtinizer from Ottawa, Canada writes: In the final analysis, it is all between 'you' and your 'God'; it was never between 'you' and 'them' anyway...forgive them anyway; be kind anyway; succeed anyway; be honest and frank anyway; build anyway; be happy anyway; do good anyway; and give the world the best you've got anyway...gee, I wonder where we learned all of that! In addition, by-the-way, did we not bury our war dead where the poppies grow using prayer and bagpiping them up to heaven in glory?!? Who hopefully received them, pray tell? The next thing they'll want to do is abolish bagpiping for our soldiers along the Highway of Heroes...Lest We Forget O Canada!
  265. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: I wish that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE would admit that he or she has been to heaven and spoken with GOD who has assured him or her that he endorses the Bible literally (EVERY version of it) since the first version was written 600 years after Christ by people with extremely good memories, so that now this great book can be taken WORD FOR WORD, as a multitude of evangelical christians now claim to do.

    In the meantime, I will live with my personal relationship with MY GOD.
  266. City Pig from Toronto, Canada writes: This country was founded on Christian values. We have all benefited from immigration and diversity. The reason so many want to make Canada their home is the ability to live in freedom, and that freedom is availible because of this countries history and value system.

    Love Canada for what it is, and what it is, is a country of freedoms based on Christian values.

    Learn to accept that God is part of our history and should stay as part who we are.
  267. Jack Flack from Canada writes: The words of the song don't say 'Jesus keep our land' I believe saying God in the national anthen is all right....AND I'M AGNOSTIC!!! go figure.

    As long as we don't substitute the word god for Allah, jesus, krishna, etc, I don't see the big problem.
  268. stand up mimi from Vancouver, Canada writes: Rain Couver from Canada writes: 'Again, to think that our ancestors were doing what they did for god and country is arrogant presumption. And even if they did, they were inspired, but it was on the backs of hard working people that this country was built, not some magical creature' My point is that this is YOUR belief, not theirs. You suggested it would be more honouring to these ancestors to take God out of the equation and assign all credit over to their efforts alone. How does it honour them - those who called themselves Christians - to disregard their beliefs? Or are you actually suggesting they didn't REALLY believe in God? And the others, those escaping persecution or the immigrant prairie farmers for example - those who also built this country - was all their apparent faith nothing to them after all? Or at best, just some vague 'inspiration' for them, but nothing of any consequence as far as actual living went? You want this belief to be nothing, because it is nothing to YOU. I quite assure you, it was something very real and very deep to THEM, and it directed the way they lived their lives. Not all of them, of course, but a significant portion. Part of being Canadian is being able to grasp that people believe differently from you, and accepting that.
  269. Chris E. from Canada writes: Removing reference to God would be as ridiculous as removing the cross from the flags of England, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, and Denmark. It's intrinsic to our history and culture.
  270. verruckt verruckt from Canada writes: Peter S from Toronto, Canada writes

    You seem to have alot of anger at something that you say doesn't exist or alot of anger at those that do believe. Why?

    Is it because God wasn't you Djinni and didn't grant you some wish like the lotto? Is it because you don't like the implications of there being a God? Is it just that you need to feel mentally superior to those who are trying to live a moral life?

    I can say 'did the bogey man scare you?' to a bunch of kids and the fact it is a fictional character doesn't bother me. If you think God is fictional, why should it bother you?

    You should look at yourself and the prejudice you show for the people that do believe.

    Many of the best proponents of Christianity like C.S. Lewis, Alister MCgrath and Lee Stroebel were Atheist until they investigated the Christian claims. Perhaps if you are willing to look past your anger and your preconceptions may I suggest you should try reading 'The Case for Faith' or 'The Case for Chirst' or 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis.
  271. stand up mimi from Vancouver, Canada writes: James Medd from Canada writes: 'Why do some persons feel the need to submissively rely on a deity for our prosperity and freedom?'

    That seems to be a concept that is very difficult to understand for those who don't rely on a deity. Suffice it to say that reliance on God does not exempt believers from hard work or sacrifice. It's not an either/or proposition - ie, God does everything FOR us, or God does nothing at all - as some here make it out to be. In the end, you don't have to understand it. But you ought to respect those who do. Just like my saying, 'Why, oh why can't those atheists just smarten up and see the truth?' would be pointless, as all that's required of me is to respect them, even though I disagree.
  272. Sanjoy Pal from Mississauga, Canada writes: As far as I understand, during the course of our development and change through millions of years, the brains of humans changed & transformed unprecedentedly. Alongwith it the brain started processing visions of future and fear, worry & anxiety altogether in a different dimension & scale than it ever did. The urge for something beyond and a sacredness which cannot be expressed by words or silence or in any form was always processed by the brain and it still does. This is no doubt a fact! But that sacredness has being made cheap, institutionalized, organized & criminalized through words, writings, various names and forms and thus has lost all its sacredness. Of course, all being processed by the brain and thus, here we are debating to delete or retain a word.

    Shouldn't everybody including kids be allowed to vote on this ageless issue, which has roots not only in the books which are merely a few thousand years old but also in the amazing processing machine - the brain which is millions of years old?
  273. Fake Name from Canada writes: ' verruckt verruckt from Canada writes: Is it just that you need to feel mentally superior to those who are trying to live a moral life?' I'm not sure I like your implication that non-believers are inherently not moral (or not even trying?), Verruckt.
  274. Confused By It All from Canada writes: Why do folks get so upset about these things? Remember, in most cases, 'God' wasn't in the original. That goes for 'Oh Canada,' the words of which were modified in the 1980's, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which again in the 1980's put the supremacy of God into the preamble, and the American pledge of alligiance, which had (one nation, indivisable,) 'under God' added in the mid 1950's.

    In Canada's case, both the anthem and the Charter came into being during the time of PET. It may well have been his devout, albeit personal religious beliefs that inspired both changes. But for sure, 'taking out God' would do no more than to put the original words back into the anthem....and as for the Charter, well, if we do have separation of church and state in Canada, then it is unclear why the 'supremacy' of anyone or anything needs to be announced.
  275. Confused By It All from Canada writes: As for the comments about 'removing God' from the constitution, nope, sorry. Go back and read the original BNA, which was an act of the British Parliament that served Canada until 1982, when it was replaced, more or less intact, with the Contitution Act, passed by the Canadian Government. Neither mentions God...the only mention of God anywhere in our consitutional documents is in the Charter, where it states that Canada is a nation that obeys the rule of law and acknowledges the supremacy of God.
  276. Robert Bott from Calgary, Canada writes: Weir's original 1908 English version contained only three verses and no religious references.
    http://www.sen.parl.gc.ca/vpoy/english/O_Canada/AnthemOld.pdf

    Weir changed his version twice, once in 1914 and again shortly before his death in 1926. It was the 1926 revision that added the fourth verse 'prayer' that religionists cite but hardly anyone sings. The rewording of 1914 added the 'sexist' reference to 'thy sons.' Judging by the date, males were given special recognition because Canada faced the prospect of war. However, as Senator Vivienne Poy has stated (specifically regarding sexism): 'Our tradition as Canadians, even in 1908, was one of inclusiveness.'
  277. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: ' ...I swear there ain't not Heaven and I pray there ain't no Hell..' (and when I die - Blood Sweat and Tears)
  278. Chris Miller from Toronto, Canada writes: We remove any sense of God (whatever our belief) to our national and personal detriment.
  279. Preston Jacob from Canada writes: Now for a version that should be a hit with believers and doubters

    O Canada! Our home and native land!
    True patriot love in all thy sons command.
    With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
    The True North strong and free!
    From far and wide, O Canada,
    We stand on guard for thee.
    God if you`re there, help us for free!
    O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
    O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
  280. Mikey Gault from In yo' face, Canada writes: I think O'Canada should work in references to Gretzky and beavers. Also, who cares if it doesn't reference Indians. They really aren't Canadian, hence the first nations concept. We just took their land. They still can't get over that fact. Oh well.
  281. lloyd fear from Montreal, Canada writes: As I recall, the change in lyrics -putting the reference to God in the English version- came along when I was in high school. As I atheist, I refused to sing them or stand for what I considered an 'illegal' anthem. For my crimes, I was harrassed by teachers, VP and Principal. When they couldn't bully me out of my stance, they opted to make me sit out in the hall, so I wouldn't be a bad example for everyone else.
    To this day I refuse to acknowledge the new lyrics.
  282. C O Jones from Canada writes: I think that reviewing the posts so far it's clear that this is a divisive issue. Isn't a national anthem supposed to unify? I say take it out of the anthem and all other official government documents.
    To those of you who cite 'history' as an excuse to leave 'god' references in, just look at the history of conflict associated with people's various interpretations of what the term means.
    Canada should be above needing to refer to 'GOD'. That sure would be evolutionary!!!!
  283. Peter S from Toronto, Canada writes: verruckt verruckt from Canada writes: Peter S from Toronto, Canada writes You seem to have alot of anger at something that you say doesn't exist or alot of anger at those that do believe. Why? Is it because God wasn't you Djinni and didn't grant you some wish like the lotto? Is it because you don't like the implications of there being a God? Is it just that you need to feel mentally superior to those who are trying to live a moral life? I can say 'did the bogey man scare you?' to a bunch of kids and the fact it is a fictional character doesn't bother me. If you think God is fictional, why should it bother you? You should look at yourself and the prejudice you show for the people that do believe. Many of the best proponents of Christianity like C.S. Lewis, Alister MCgrath and Lee Stroebel were Atheist until they investigated the Christian claims. Perhaps if you are willing to look past your anger and your preconceptions may I suggest you should try reading 'The Case for Faith' or 'The Case for Chirst' or 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis. For someone who suggests I'm trying to feel mentally superior, your comments reek of condescension. Actually I was raised Christian and attended Sunday School and Church regularily, and I take exception to your suggestion that my atheism precludes me from being a moral person. Through education and rationale thought, I rejected the notion of god and religion. I do not have anger towards a non existent being, nor do I have anger towards believers in general. I do, however, have anger towards the growing trend of religious followers expecting to have their beliefs held as more important than non-believers, and I take objection to the notion that a country like Canada should have a religious line in our anthem, when religion should be a private matter for individuals, not to be proclaimed in a national anthem.
  284. C O Jones from Canada writes: To Eric of Windsor: To all those who believe there is no God ...... please explain to me why every people group throughout recorded history has felt so strongly that there is something, somewhere greater than life itself...

    Actually, the burden of proof is on those who 'believe' to prove it. Why people through recorded history believe that there is a higher power is based in the evolutionary survival mechanism that makes infants and small children believe and follow the instructions of their elders. If they didn't - often they'd die.

    The customs around praise & worship as well as the role of religious leaders is based in the age old need for some people's need to exert power, influence and control over others. And what better way than by using faith in something that can never be proved! Rituals, and customs of worship from around the world all use similar methods (chants, rhythm, repitition, physical exertion) to trigger physiological reactions in the human brain that are often interpreted as 'religious experience'.

    I say let's evolve past the need for God!
  285. Sanjoy Pal from Mississauga, Canada writes: The brain is responsible for creating this theistic, atheistic, agnostic, religious, political, patriotic & spiritual mess based on sounds, silence & scribbles we produce and interpret and many a times fight as well. Isn’t it the responsibility of the brain to tidy this up? Maybe we need consciousness raisers like we had in the past - the shift from flat earth to spherical earth and from moving sun to a fixed sun?
  286. Kent Lewis from Toronto, Canada writes: To all those who flatly state there is no God, or religion is a fairy tale:

    The one man who saw deeper into the nature of space and time than any other before or since, Albert Einstein, had this to say:

    'I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are details.'

    How bombastic for anyone to think they are privy to a deeper understanding of the universe than Einstein. And how pathetic of them to consider their own extremely limited, Lilliputian, mental snapshots of the universe to be sufficient to conclude that Einstein was wrong, and they are right. Such is the stuff of fools, and idiots.

    For more on Einstein and God, see this:

    http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/reflectionsvolume1/torrance.htm
  287. Stephen Hansen Smythe from Calgary, Canada writes: I liked Preston Jacobs' suggestion. Or how about this: substitute 'Thor' for 'God'. That way all Canadians can sing with equal disbelief, rather than causing one in five Canadians to cringe when they sing the anthem with the current words.

    I just sing the version I was taught in the seventies, which suited Canada just fine (egregious androcentrism notwithstanding), and did not tend to inspire public debates such as this one. The addition of 'God' to the anthem has only served to divide us into those who like it and those who don't.
  288. robert roels from Canada writes: Why a song? It's only words and I have a lousy voice anyway. It means nothing to me as do flags, yet if an enemy were to touch the soil we call Canada I would be there to defend this nation.

    Don't forget that this land originally belonged to the natives, whose concept of God is not that of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic.

    Why not use Manitou or Allah in the song?

    As for the God wording, the inclusion of Judeo-Christian-Islamic aspects into a song which did not have those references apply only to a percentage of Canadians. To be fair, a song should apply to all Canadians, even atheists. The original song would have been more appropriate.

    If you want to include God, go to church, that is what Church is for.
  289. Jack Rip from Vancouver, Canada writes: In the new climate of terrorism-based fears, we can interchange the words 'God' and 'Guard', depending on our personal and religious affiliations. For example,

    'Oh Canada, we stand on GUARD for thee'

    becomes

    'Oh Canada, we stand on GOD for thee'

    (non-atheist versus atheist verses) or

    'GOD keep our land, glorious and free'

    becomes

    'GUARDS keep our land, glorious and free'

    (religious versus practical versus), and nobody will really know what you are singing. Now everyone can be happy!
  290. Boom town from Calgary, Canada writes: Dear fellow Christians, I urge you to not argue with nonbelievers. It only makes you more angry and bitter.

    I defy you to look at this site and say there is no God. These people who had these near death experiences are DOCTORS. Not just Joes off the street. They saw hell. Every doctor, including the presenter was an atheist.

    It has strengthened my faith enormously.

    Hell is real. Heaven is real. God is real.

    I suggest you watch the video, but I have printed out the transcript.

    God bless.

    http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Rawlings/DrRawlingsNearDeathExperiences.htm
  291. Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: ))))))Mary Smith from United States writes: None of my business but... Man is imperfect; always has been and always will be. Those who put all of their faith solely in the abilities of man can only fail. How can that not be a fact? Man has a spiritual side; That is also a fact. It has been documented that prayer helps those who are sick, those in distress, etc. How or why or whatever is irrelevant. There are never-ending stories related to the positive effect of a faith higher than man's abilities. It is when we rely solely on our own impulses, feelings, desires, etc., that get us into trouble. Are we so arrogant to believe the woefully imperfect man has all the answers? It has been shown in the States that people of faith with much less materially-wise, give more than those who are wealthy but are secular. Their faith compels them and they are rewarded themselves. I'm not saying those without faith cannot feel compelled to do good, yet they do it less. Whatever compels them does not seem to be as influential. And I'm not interested in the wealthy. It's easy to give when there's virtually zero sacrifice. Values in general seem to be falling by the wayside. People of faith seem to hold onto to their values better. I'm sticking with them and God. __________________________________ It is your business, in my humble opinion. That is the reason I will do BUSINESS with you, no morals = no business. A person with God and morals= I do business with. Very Simple.
  292. C R from Canada writes: If God does not keep our land...look out!
  293. ken g from Canadian in Mexico, Canada writes: For these people 'God really is a imaginary friend for grownups'.
  294. Jonathan Taylor from Calgary, Canada writes: The title of the link was 'Should God still keep our land?'. The real question in my mind is 'Will God still keep our land?'.

    As to the question of whether or not there is a God...I know there is a God. I have prayed to him and I have received answers to my prayers. I have received countless witnesses that there is God that loves us and is watching over us. He is our Father. We are his children. I know that. When I keep his commandments I find true joy. Although we have never seen Him, that doesn't make Him any less real. There are many things that are real that we have never seen. But, even so, there are those that have seen Him and that testify that he lives.

    He has said that this land that we live in, Canada, is part of a chosen land. and that 'whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ... (Ether 2:12 - The Book of Mormon)'

    But the scriptures also warn that 'this is a land which is choice above all other lands: wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off ; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fullness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off...(Ether 2:10)

    And then the writer, which saw us and our day, speaks directly to us...'And this cometh unto you...that ye may know the decrees of God - that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.'

    So I come back to my first question 'Will God still keep this land?' Only if we continue to serve Him and worship Him.

  295. Raymond Shaheen from Rochester, United States writes: It is interesting that English-speaking Canadians see fit to continue to choose to alter how the French version of the National Anthem is worded. The original text reflects a meaningful expression to those who choose to carry the cross, but certainly compels no one to do it.
    History saw fit to include many accommodations to Lower Canada, and this fact is central to Canadian Identity. Why must the nation continue to debate what has been settled long ago. Increased diversity and inter-cultural respect do not require turning our back on our past.
  296. A K from Canada writes: ......
    I have no objection to the word remaining in our anthem.

    But the victim mentality shown by many of the religious posters on this board is shameful. Get over yourselves.
    .....
  297. Joe xyz from Canada writes: Oh Canada,
    However you interpret 'Oh',
    True apathy, in whatever you mean about whatever,
    With bored hearts, we see thee rise,
    The bogus north weak and lame,
    Yada yada yada, yada yada yada,
    who cares about the name?
    May the void spare this land,
    this disputed real estate,
    Oh what the heck, just guard the gate,
    Oh whatever yadayada we think this land is almost great.

    And while were trashing the anthem, why not replace the flag with one with a donut in the middle with a hockey stick on each side?

    Or maybe have a yearly contest to rewrite the anthem and design the flag, to ensure that there is no continuity at all?

    Better yet, if people hate the anthem and hate the flag so much, just trash them both, and be the first country on the planet to have no flag and no anthem, because that is what the anthem haters are pushing for in their destructive rampage.

    I say that we should keep either keep our traditions intact or trash them altogether, because tweaking them and tinkering with them is a national embarassment. The next thing you know, the maniacs behind this will want to chang the name of the country to Kanadoo. Enough already!
  298. Joe xyz from Canada writes: When did 'from far and wide' come in? Not in the version I learned in public school. I always remember God being in it though. Basically, this isn't a 'Canadian Anthem Idol' contest, because we already have an anthem that works. If people don't like the existing anthem, they can sit down and shut up. If they tradition-hating lobby gets its way and changes it to some nebulous meaningless nonsense, then the rest of us can sit down and shut up. It will be odd to have a national anthem that requires half of the citizens to sit down and shut up, but that seems to be what the agitators are lobbying for.
  299. dorrie ratzlaff from Canada writes: some people asking whats wrong with having 'god' in the anthem...well, the original anthem of O Canada was written without 'god' in it, so it was good enough for about 70 years and that is the version that was drilled into my head when I was about five years old, and that (the one without 'god') is the one I sing...i mean, if it was good enough for Weir who wrote the thing to leave 'god' out then it's good enough for me...believe it or not, some people got mad at me for singing it without 'god'...so much for FREEDOM FROM RELIGION! What's wrong with having 'god' in the anthem? well those who are complaining about their religious sensitivities being 'offended' should consider how much it offends people who do not believe in 'god' to have 'god' foisted upon them in their national anthem. May I emphasise again that 'O Canada' got along quite well from it's original composition circa 1910 to 1980 without 'god' in it. As to the comment 'Recognition of a greater entity — God — as sovereign, is also a sign of humility' i find this comment to be rather patronizing and condescending...are we now to have some kind of movement afloat that having 'humility' is supposed to be a general trait that everyone should have, and in whose opinion anyway does this vague notion of 'humility' lie? Well, just to exercise my right to freedom of expression, I choose to thumb my nose at this rather pompous and pedantic notion that we should all be 'humble'. No, state and religion should remain apart, apart, apart. Please spare me from the obscuring fog of religion. Belief in 'god', or not, is the personal and private business of the individual. it is my belief that 'god is an imaginary being' and i am happy to report that so far i live in a country (Canada) where it is my right to say so and against the law for anyone to harm me or persecute me for believing so.
  300. dorrie ratzlaff from Canada writes: as to infants and small children 'believing' in 'god'....one of my earliest memories is from around age three when I clearly recall someone telling my about 'god' and I remember thinking at that time that this person was having me on, pulling my leg, stringing me a yarn...in other words, i did not believe them...however, i knew enough to keep my mouth shut too. nope, i do not believe that small children and infants automatically believe in 'god'...in fact, i think they are hazed and frightened into it...vis. my sunday school teacher from around the same time, who was oh so nice to us when our parents were around but as soon as the parents went upstairs from the church basement to church on the main floor, leaving us toddlers with 'the sunday school lady'...well, we found out that she was no lady, she turned, upon our parents disappearing from view, into a scary witch who told us all kinds of scary stories that if we didn't toe the line bad things would happen to us. so, nope, you're decieving yourself with fairy tales if you think little children naievely 'believe' in 'god'.
  301. Tracy Bracy from Ottawa, Canada writes: Whatever, we just better keep the French on our side or we will really be just North American. I hav no idea why they use the word god in the national anthem, maybe to prevent head of state assasinations.
  302. joel freeman from Canada writes: I have thought through my atheism fairly extensively and I put Jesus (as the son of god) and Mohamed (as a prophet) and GOD all in the same boat. For those of you saying 'it isn't like we are saying 'jesus keep our land' ' - well actually it is. To my ears it sounds like the same thing.

    Be fair to this argument and try this very simple thought experiment: pick something you firmly don't believe in and then try singing the line from our national anthem asking for it to keep your land. This is where we atheists are coming from. 23% of Canadians are atheists and you are asking us to bow down (ever so slightly) to something we equate with the tooth fairy.

    I promise that when we are the majority we won't force you to make atheistic nuances when we rewrite the anthem.
  303. Dave of the North from Yellowknife NT, Canada writes: dorrie ratzlaff and joel freeman... nicely said. I don't care much if people are superstitious. It just boggles the mind though when they claim such nonsense as a particular superstition is the root of all morality. Hoping a rabbits foot will bring you good luck is one thing, but blind acceptance of a god, be it zeus or any of the hundreds of others, really looks silly at one end of the spectrum, watching the t.v. evangelists and their hand wringing flock, and staggeringly ridiculous at the other when you see creationists attempting to install their beliefs as a viable alternative to evolution in the classroom.
  304. Kent Lewis from toronto, Canada writes: ken g from Canadian in Mexico, Canada writes: For these people 'God really is a imaginary friend for grownups'.

    Ah, so you ARE smarter than Albert Einstein, and are privy to deeper insights into the nature of space, time, the quantum universe, and multi-verse string theory, than those scientists who are perplexed at what appear to be 'just the right numbers', 'fixed', as it were, by an intelligence beyond their ken.

    Do you believe John and Suzy P-Brane are best left in the dark?
  305. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Atheism is so passe and out of touch with modern science. Atheists, please educate yourselves and acquaint yourselves with the Big Bang theory, approved by Einstein, Stephen Hawkins, and all contemporary cosmologists, astrophysicists, etc.

    The universe was CREATED 13.7 bn years ago by the introduction of a 'singularity' by s.o./s.th. Before that introduction, there was NOTHING. This is the ACCEPTED viewpoint of MODERN SCIENCE.

    One of the major contributors to the Big Bang theory was George Lamaitre, a brilliant Belgian mathematician and a Jesuit, held in the highest esteem by Einstein, who corresponded regularly with Lemaitre, and backed 100% his findings.

    And the talk here is about an anthem...
  306. The Central Screwtinizer from Ottawa, Canada writes: Sure are alot of misguided people with preconceptions of how, why, what, when and where people choose to believe in a 'God' on this blog as per usual... Believing in a God is just that...a belief! No one actually knows of its existence, it is simply a comforting thought to some people trekking through life. Ask a soldier in a tight spot in a firefight what he thinks about believing in a God... What goes along with it is simply loving and helping your neighbour no matter how complicated (family and friends and co-workers and the unfortunate, the impoverished...) get through life, no more, no less...its that simple. You don't need a church to do so but many choose to do so because it is simply a place of learning how to do so within a community of people with the same values of helping others. But like anything else it is always influenced by who does this as all people are simply that...just people... If you have a problem with people helping others such as Canadians have done for generations including the work of thousands of church groups all over the world, you have a problem no doubt! I will personally pray for you for whatever its worth...
  307. Unknown User! from Canada writes: im offended just by debating on removing 'God' from the national anthem. If you dont like it, leave.
  308. Fake Name from Canada writes: ' Kent Lewis from toronto, Canada writes: Ah, so you ARE smarter than Albert Einstein, and are privy to deeper insights into the nature of space, time, the quantum universe, and multi-verse string theory, than those scientists who are perplexed at what appear to be 'just the right numbers', 'fixed', as it were, by an intelligence beyond their ken.'

    'It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
    -- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press'

    As to 'just the right numbers' - maybe it's us fitting the parameters, rather than vice versa. If string theory is on the correct track (big if) they might even have a physical answer to why the critical parameters for subatomic physics allow more complex levels of chemical physics in a few years.
  309. Lyle Davey from Gibsons, Canada writes: Religion,politics or abortion.All the knives get drawn when these issues
    are discussed.It's only a few words in our National Anthem.Does this
    issue warrant such strongly held views here?
  310. Dave North of 60 from Yellowknife, Canada writes: 'Does this issue warrant such strongly held views here?' Only if you believe in principles Lyle. And to Pete Bojkov: If prefering to believe in reality is passe, count me in. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in a religion. You're born that way.
  311. Elspeth Dowell from Montreal, Canada writes: I read up to page 5 of the debate, and I couldn't sit still or concentrate on anything once I read that Jennifer Harris was accusing Justin Trottier of being extremist. Has Ms. Harris read any of Hitchen's book 'God is not Great, How Religion Poisons Everything.' ?? I think Hitchens is fantastic, but if we're going to call someone an extremist, let's say perhaps Hitchens is, but Justin certainly isn't. Justin has never blamed theists for the ills of society. If you go to humanists.ca, which is the web-site for the Humanist Association of Canada, and click on 'Regional Humanist Groups' you will see that there are 16 affiliated groups in Ontario alone. There is one affiliate group in Quebec, one in Manitoba, one in Saskatchewan. There are two listed for Alberta and 4 groups in BC. These are all HAC affiliates. There are many other Atheist, Humanist and Freethinker groups in Canada, like Association Humaniste du Quebec, like CFI- Ontario and loads more I probably don't even know about. Within any group of Humanists, Atheists or Agnostics, there might be one or two extremists. Most are moderates. Humanists believe in freedom of and from religion. Justin and other Humanists are not trying to ban religion. We are asking that religion never be given a trump card to play against non-theists!
  312. Kent Lewis from Ontari-ari-ari-Oh! Canada, Canada writes: Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, wrote:

    The universe was CREATED 13.7 bn years ago by the introduction of a 'singularity' by s.o./s.th. Before that introduction, there was NOTHING. This is the ACCEPTED viewpoint of MODERN SCIENCE.

    Not so fast:

    'In their book, physicists Paul J. Steinhardt & Neil Turok explain their cyclic model of universal evolution, which matches the majority of evidence and would also provide explanations for these existing problems. In this theory, the 'Big Bang' is actually created by membranes (elements predicted by string theory) which collide with each other in multi-dimensional space. In this model, there is not necessarily just one Big Bang, but rather a series of them that happen over and over again, back and forth across potentially infinite time.'

    http://tinyurl.com/5kr9bq
  313. Andrew Eldon from Canada writes: While we're at it, can we talk about removing the 'supremacy of God' from 'Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:' in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
  314. Jack Flack from Canada writes: When the issue is god and politics all the crazies come out...from both sides of the issue.

    I, as an Agnostic, say we should keep god in the anthem strictly for tradition and history. Stop the constant re-writing to keep EVERYONE and their opinion happy.

    Christ on a crutch!!! Usually it's the religious nut jobs that piss me off the most. With this issue the nut job, foaming at the mouth, athiests are getting in on the action.

    This BS started with the horrible curse of political correctness. 'Manhole'? NO NO!!! you horrible sexist pig!!! It's a storm drain cover!! Off to sensitivity awarness re-education for you!!!
  315. David Caufield from Canada writes: Change the word 'God' to 'Truth,' and everyone everywhere should be satisfied, since God is truth, and even those who don't like the concept of God still like truth.

    'Truth, save our land, glorious and free' sounds bold and aspirational, and for those who believe God to be the truth, they are still calling out to God with that line.
  316. Kent Lewis from Canada writes: Fake Name from {presumably some place called ;-) } Canada - Good post!

    If and when mere humans can begin to comprehend that a creative intelligence used evolution, to unfold itself within a context which provided an infinite number of sites for mastery of self, and that the intelligence is in fact mirrored [perhaps infinitely] from the big to the small and back to the big, in an inexorable series of contractions and expansions, then perhaps we can move beyond the mere literalism, mediation, and trappings of religion, into some higher understanding of what consciousness is involved in doing:

    'Early in his life Einstein came to refer to God as 'cosmic intelligence' which he did not think of in a personal but in a 'super-personal' way, for, as he learned from Spinoza, the term 'personal' when applied to human beings cannot as such be applied to God. 12 Nevertheless he resorted to the Jewish-Christian way of speaking of God who reveals himself in an ineffable way as truth which is its own certainty.'

    http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/reflectionsvolume1/torrance.htm
  317. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Ken Lewis, indeed, not so fast. The Big Bang theory is THE theory that explains the origin of the universe, at least at the current level of human knowledge. I understand the atheists'/'human secularists'' hate for the CREATION aspect of the Big Bang, hence your desire to cling to fringe views and 'theories' and to the Dark Age of atheism. It's easy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

    This is wiki's web site for the Big Bang theory, and IT'S OPEN FOR EDITING. Please feel free to refute this deeply disturbing, from an atheist's point of view, theory. Good luck; the Nobel prize is just around the corner.
  318. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Kent Lewis, and this is what wiki says re the cyclic model of Steinhardt/Turok:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model

    'As Richard C. Tolman showed, the earlier cyclic model failed because the universe would undergo inevitable thermodynamic heat death. However, the newer cyclic model evades this by having a net expansion each cycle, preventing entropy from building up. However, there are major problems with the model. Foremost among them is that colliding branes are not understood by string theorists, and nobody knows if the scale invariant spectrum will be destroyed by the big crunch, or even what happens when two branes collide. Moreover, like cosmic inflation, while the general character of the forces (in the ekpyrotic scenario, a force between branes) required to create the vacuum fluctuations is known, there is no candidate from particle physics. Moreover, the scenario uses some essential ideas from string theory, principally extra dimensions, branes and orbifolds. String theory itself is a controversial idea in physics.'

    Nice try, though. Try to keep (desperately) the atheist faith alive.
  319. Lyle Davey from Gibsons, Canada writes: On Canada Day,last Tuesday we held a celebration in our 64 unit town
    house complex on our large common lawn area.We had flags up,hot dogs,kids,games,dogs,cats and a pet bunny.One of the owners 12 year
    old daughter sang Oh Canada to open our celebration.We all stood as
    she sang with such beauty and clarity.It struck me as she sang,that as
    Canadians we were coming together because our Canada means some
    thing to us.So what ever our personal beliefs were on Canada Day,we
    set them aside and were Canadians.BTW,I consider myself an atheist.
  320. Sanjoy Pal from Mississauga, Canada writes: If you are all that serious, I strongly feel that in a country which is proud of democracy, tolerance, freedom, peace, rights & education for all, the NATIONAL ANTHEM should have an EXPIRY DATE but renewable as circumstances and events unfolds with the potential for slowly melting away in the future. In that spirit, I propose our national anthem should be renewed every leap year with thunder & lightning and selected through a competition open to ALL in Canada till the time we move forward to ZERO participant. This will be inclusive rather than the exclusive ideas & concepts of theists, atheists, maybe’s, patriot’s and all the rest. Other countries should be encouraged to join the FUN, LOGIC & MAGIC.
  321. Boom town from Calgary, Canada writes: People can and will mock God and Christians as much as they want.

    However, I guarantee you all this. We will all die one day. Then what?
  322. Joe xyz from Canada writes: It is amazing to see a discussion of the national anthem morph into a discussion of the Big Bang theory, especially so close to Canada Day with all of those fireworks! The anthem issue has nothing to do with whether there really is a clearly defined “God”. It’s a song lyric! It’s poetry! The WHOLE POINT is that we HAVE an anthem (pardon the shouting). Frankly, if we were starting a brand new country this minute, and had to come up with an anthem, I would leave out anything controversial, including both religious allusions and marxist platitudes, but that isn’t the case. No, this about revising an existing anthem. In fairness, it has been done before. I recall seeing a very old version of the anthem that waxed on about how great it was to see the Scots, Irish and Brits toiling together in harmony without trying to punch each other out. The problem this time, though, is that atheist fundamentalists have been on a militant rampage for at least a decade in a way that makes the Vandals and the Vikings seem polite and accommodating by comparison. It’s the atheist version of a jihad, “Down with the fidels!” Fact is, the Universe is not totally chaotic, but has an underlying intelligence to it, which is what Einstein meant by God, even though he didn’t believe in a personal God that intervenes. It’s like when you see a wild-eyed person running down the middle of the street, you want to calm him down, and that is how militant atheists appear to normal people, i.e. wild-eyed and fanatical, and so we want them to calm down and get a grip
  323. Joe xyz from Canada writes: I liked David Caulfied's line, 'Truth, save our land, glorious and free'. I could live with that, because it doesn't grovel at the feet of militant atheism. However the idea that 'truth' should have anything to do with it might offend those who consider habitual lying to be a valid lifestyle option.
  324. Derek Pyne from Toronto, Canada writes: Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Kent Lewis, and this is what wiki says re the cyclic model of Steinhardt/Turok:

    …omitted for brevity…
    Nice try, though. Try to keep (desperately) the atheist faith alive.
    ________

    These god of the gaps arguments for religion are silly. The fact that scientific knowledge at its current level has not answered everything about the universe does not mean one should resort to a mythical being to explain the gaps in current knowledge. It merely means that there are more interesting questions for science to investigate. Before Darwin added the explanation of natural selection to evolution, people had the same criticism of evolution (Darwin was not the first to propose evolution but he was the first to explain it with the explanation of natural selection). If the proponents could not explain what shaped evolution, they argued against it and in favour of creationism. Then Darwin came up with the explanation of natural selection. Likewise, the fact that all the details of something that happened billions of years ago have not been worked out, does not mean we should resort to superstition for explanations.
  325. David Caufield from Canada writes: I don't care about the theism/atheism debate, but I want to clarify something for Fake Name from Canada. Einstein believed in a God, but used the term 'Personal God'often, carefully, to describe a concept of a God which is separate from its creation, which he viewed as being the common belief, and which he disagreed with. He believed in a God that is all in all, and he repeated this numerous times. 'In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.' -Einstein 'No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.' -Einstein 'My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.' - Einstein So, since you claimed that Einstein was right because he was the smartest, I assume you've become a theist after reading this, Fake Name from Canada? ; ) In response to: Fake Name from Canada writes: ' Kent Lewis from toronto, Canada writes: Ah, so you ARE smarter than Albert Einstein 'It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.
  326. Carl Sterritt from Canada writes: Keep your religions to yourselves. We should all welcome freedom of religion and free thinking without pushing our beliefs on others. I consider myself agnostic as I have not yet found the religion that best fits my beliefs.

    I was at The Children's Museum in Kitchener today and a father educated the employees for 15 minutes asking that they remove anything that includes or may lead someone to thinking that dinosaurs actually existed or evolution occurred.

    I'm all for freedom of expression but allow others to choose their beliefs and do not force them on others.
  327. Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: God will 'keep our nation glorious and free'; or he won't. He will keep it free from turmoil or he won't. He will Bless this nation or he won't. All we have to do is look around the globe. I subscribe to the tenant of 'God the creator'; others do not. That is fine with me, although I think when we collectively sing we are 'asking' God a question? So, a question usually requires an answer. Since the question is being asked of God then the answer must be supplied by him in an action. We are asking for 'freedom and liberty'; I think? So if we don't get that freedom and liberty then I guess God might be choosing to 'turn away' from us. This is just a train of logic, I am proposing. God, I am not. Even Mr. Charles Darwin, in the final paragraph of his book, THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES, said 'There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the 'Creator' into a few forms or into one; and that, while this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved'. Mr. C. Darwin believed in 'the Creator'. His source of life was not 'a' but 'the Creator'. Wow!
  328. Ruth Walker from Edmonton, Canada writes: Canada used to be a Christian nation. Christian domination was the norm in every aspect of life.

    Of course there were others in the early days of Canada. The Church did its best to crush Native Spirituality, continuing to this day to declare it occult. Jews were certainly not well spoken of, and idol worshipers were off the scale.

    The best demarcation of the transition to today's secular Canada was the 1982 Constitution Act. It still had some hocus pocus in the pre-amble regarding an undefined God, but the mechanics of the Charter of Rights made it clear that Christianity and all other peace-loving religions were to get equal treatment.

    Returning now to God in our anthem, this is yet another vestige of the old Canada under Christian domination.

    I suggest that we either remove all references to God, or better still, do an annual rotation where each religion in Canada gets to submit a word or phrase they would prefer over 'God', and then we pull one out of the hat.

    Glooscap keep our land glorious and free!

    BTW those with a personal religion may want to submit their very own name for this form of recognition. And of course, you could submit God!

    God keep our land glorious and free!

    I thought at first that my second idea might mess up the metre of the anthem too much, but I tried quite a few examples and all of them seemed to work to some extent. Oh Canada is just such a weak anthem that it is difficult to make it worse. I am not being unpatriotic, I am just saying the anthem is musically and lyrically a dud.

    Aum keep our land glorious and free! (sounds like ahhh-ooom)

    There may have to be a length restriction. My tongue goes up to about seven syllables within the God beat, but that would be pretty blurry in a crowd:

    Invisible Magic Elf keep our land glorious and free!

    Tao keep our land glorious and free!

    That last one was my fave.
  329. Elspeth Dowell from Montreal, Canada writes: Hello there, Jack Flack, I guess I'm one of those foaming at the mouth atheists. As our anthem refers to god, singular, and the preamble to the constitution refers to god, singular, then monotheism is normal and other beliefs are abnormal?

    I've been atheist for 29 years. As an abnormal Canadian, why haven't I been locked up, or sent to re-education camp, or questioned by the police at least? Why have I been permitted to raise two kids to adulthood? Shouldn't the kids have been removed from my abnormal home???

    Atheists have never flown planes into buildings, never thrown grenades or shot guns at people for being theist. There is no small group of non representative atheists even, who have bombed public transit.

    As people who are treated as abnormal by our own government, i think occasional foaming at the mouth should be permitted.
  330. Elspeth Dowell from Montreal, Canada writes: So Peter B. suggests that atheists go to wikipedia and good luck to us in our attempts to edit the scientific explanations? So Peter you are a theist who believes that current science proves creation?

    Well, the current level of science will surely continue to expand. But if you believe in creation, who created the universe? And how did the creator come into existance? A creator couldn't just pop in to existance, you know.
  331. dorrie ratzlaff from Canada writes: the ultimate, if not most subtle, ad baculum argument for the existence of 'god': Ask a soldier in a tight spot in a firefight what he thinks about believing in a God... (a.k.a. 'there are no atheists in foxholes').
  332. Joe xyz from Canada writes: Oops! While googling I noticed that I conflated a rare version (actually another verse) of O Canada with The Maple Leaf Forever. The part about “toiling” is from the former: “O Canada! Where pines and maples grow, Great prairies spread and Lordly rivers flow! How dear to us thy broad domain, From East to Western sea! The land of hope for all who toil, The true North strong and free!” Note that Canada originally held hope for “all who toil” – hmm. The Maple Leaf Forever could never work as an anthem because the following lines would cause offense in Quebec. “In days of yore, from Britain's shore, Wolfe, the dauntless hero came, And planted firm Britannia's flag, On Canada's fair domain. Here may it wave, our boast, our pride, And joined in love together, The thistle, shamrock, rose entwine.” That last line is a poetic reference to the Scots, the Irish and Brits getting along. The following is from wikipedia, for what it's worth: “Official changes to the English version were recommended in 1968 by a Special Joint Committee of the Senate and House of Commons. The National Anthem Act of 1980 added a religious reference to the English lyrics and the phrase ‘From far and wide, O Canada’ to replace one of the somewhat tedious repetitions of the phrase 'We stand on guard.' This change was controversial with traditionalists, and for several years afterwards it was not uncommon to hear people still singing the old lyrics at public events.” Now I know where the “from far and wide” part came from. It’s disconcerting to be proudly singing the anthem you were taught as a child and half the people around you are singing different words. That is my main objection to changing it. People sing the version they learn at school, so if it is a multi-generational crowd, the anthem turns into a tower of patriotic babble, which is my main objection to changing it.
  333. David Stocks from Victoria, Canada writes: Because the word God has so many incompatable meanings, I just sing 'O keep our land...' More importantly, because I have a daughter, I replace 'in all thy sons command' with 'in all of us command'. Anyone who has a female ancestor or descendant should follow my example.
  334. Mr. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: I see that my Charles Darwin's quote regarding 'the Creator', was not posted.
    Too bad. Oh well, maybe to selective of a panel?
  335. maggie broda from toronto, Canada writes: If you are at all familiar with verse 2 of our national anthem you might agree it has a great deal of value and is very refective our ideals.
    I have been teaching ESL in our most diverse city, Toronto for many years and this is the version I use and would like to hear . What is the proceedure for change? Perhaps it is time.
    M. Broda

    O CANADA
    WHERE PINES AND MAPLE GROW
    GREAT PRAIRIES SPREAD
    AND LORDLY RIVERS FLOW
    HOW DEAR TO US THY BROAD DOMAINE
    FROM EAST TO WESTERN SEA
    THE LAND OF HOPE
    FOR ALL WHO TOIL
    THE TRUE NORTH STRONG AND FREE
    O CANADA
    GLORIOUS AND FREE
    O CANADA WE STAND ON GUARD FOR THEE
  336. Nassar Ben Houdja from Canada writes: If the politically correct don't like a premise that the nation was founded on, they can always exercise the freedom of leaving. As for the reference to a higher power, it seems fairly neutral and all inclusive, now don't do anything to make him/her start with the smiting again. If all evolution has accomplished for the logic and reason bunch is deny what the evolutionists believe, hasn't really evolved much has it? Reality is a crutch for those who can't face religion.
  337. Joe xyz from Canada writes: maggie broda from toronto, Canada writes: 'If you are at all familiar with verse 2 of our national anthem you might agree it has a great deal of value and is very refective our ideals. I have been teaching ESL in our most diverse city, Toronto for many years and this is the version I use and would like to hear . What is the proceedure for change? Perhaps it is time. M. Broda O CANADA WHERE PINES AND MAPLE GROW GREAT PRAIRIES SPREAD AND LORDLY RIVERS FLOW HOW DEAR TO US THY BROAD DOMAINE FROM EAST TO WESTERN SEA THE LAND OF HOPE FOR ALL WHO TOIL THE TRUE NORTH STRONG AND FREE O CANADA GLORIOUS AND FREE O CANADA WE STAND ON GUARD FOR THEE' I agree with you, but can't you envision the howls of protest coming from able-bodied, on-welfare-for-life spongers upon hearing a lyric like, 'THE LAND OF HOPE, FOR ALL WHO TOIL'? In actual fact, the work ethic is what built this country, and there should be no hope provided for able-bodied people who refuse to work. Sure, some people need temporary welfare for compassionate reasons, hence the social safety net, but a safety net is not a place for an able-bodied person to lounge around like a blob and receive cheques courtesy of 'ALL WHO TOIL' for the rest of their lives. This is a big issue in taxpayers' minds that gets almost no comment from either politicians or the media.

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