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Canada Day, Part I

Our part-time home and native land

MICHAEL VALPY

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 4:29 PM EST 02/07/08

In Canada's culture of global citizens, millions live abroad, thousands are transnationals — and many more are itching to join them ...Read the full article

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  1. John Deriso from Edmonton, Canada writes: Oh, it's happening everywhere to varying degrees. Borders are eroding away slowly but surely, people are becoming more educated, less frightened of the unknown and of the different, the internet is opening up awareness, getting on a plane is easy enough to do, and going around the world isn't exactly a major expedition as it once was. Canada is just ahead of the game.

    Do we need a common identity? Probably. All societies do. But what we do not need is nationalism, the notion that we are better than others simply for being in one place rather than another.
  2. mighty conan from Calgary, Canada writes: The accidental Canadian... Some good, some bad to this, but I'm thinking the story hasn't changed all so much in a 125 years. People have always come here looking for a better chance & have found it for the most part. The "old" country beckons & they visit, but decide to stay after all whatever the reason. What's changed is the particular country of origin along with the times. Once it was W. Europe. Then it was E. Europe. Then it was S. Asia. Each time a political or economic circumstance has been the driver but the story is the same. Out of poverty, suppression, discrimination we've all joined to become one great nation with a common experience. Not a bad result over all if you ask me. The stories I've shared over many years no matter the source sound alike. We're all glad we're here, no matter where we started & when. Life's good. Celebrate Canada Day in whatever language or way we can. Cheers...
  3. Michael Mayer from Hong Kong, writes: I am a Canadian from British Columbia who has lived and worked in Hong Kong for seven years. I have enjoyed my time here and I am looking forward to returning home with my wife (whom I met here) and my new born son. I will be applying for permanent resident status in Hong Kong, but have always considered Canada home. I may return to Hong Kong one day, and if I do, I appreciate the fact that I am a citizen of a country that embraces so many different cultures and nationalities. It is a tribute to one of the best run and most livable countries in the world--Canada.
  4. E. Biggs from Canada writes: I sit here late at night considering this article and what it portrays.

    It seems like all of these people have come to Canada during the good times when things are moving in the right direction and life is easy.

    They or their parents seem to want the best of both worlds, which is normal but I cannot help but remember some of those in Lebanon here a few months ago who had Canadian passports but who lived full time in Lebanon and in fact had little if any attachment to this country. Convenient santuary in times of trouble.

    I am not saying that these or most of these folks are like that but poses an interesting question.

    I then wonder what their positions an status would be if Canada were to encounter tough times or were attacked by some agressor?
    Would they still identify with Canada and stand by her or would they flee to their home lands like they did in coming here?

    I have my doubts.
  5. L. W. from Somewhere in BC, Canada writes: As someone who immigrated to this country back in the 70's, I don't agree with this article at all. Canada is NOT a country of convenience. You come here because you want to and you become part of the culture here. Granted you can still have connections to your past country but saying you are something else here when you have citizenship and a canadian when you are overseas is a f.....g insult to this country and its people. I agree with E. Biggs about Lebanon. classic case of these people NOT being Canadian but having a convenient passport. This is what I don't like about the immigration system and the people who run it. They don't represent the majority of Canadians. Political Correctness gone mad. pure and simple.
  6. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: This so-called"debate" on pages of G&M reads like a pure nonsense. A country of convenience ? Does author know what a pain in the neck it is to go through the immigration process only to find racists (in a multikulti country!) and a very vibrant workplace (so vibrant, you have to emigrate again to get ahead).
  7. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: @ E.Biggs: I will let you defend the Arctic Circle, and I will defend the Southern Border - in case it is needed. Bokay?
  8. Sue W from Canada writes: Part-time home to some part-time Canadians with part-time allegiance to Canada.

    Only in Canada would there be celebration.
  9. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: It's called citizenships of convenience! As noted by previous comments.

    A practice that must end & soon, dual & multi-citizenships are nothing more than people exploiting others for their own personal gain. The others in this case are Canadian's who remain in Canada as permanent Canadian citizens, working, raising their families & contributing to Canada as a whole. Sure we may vacation or visit friends & family abroad for short periods of time, but we return when the trip is over, we return home!
  10. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: John Deriso from Edmonton, Canada writes: "Do we need a common identity? Probably. All societies do. But what we do not need is nationalism, the notion that we are better than others simply for being in one place rather than another."

    -------------------

    People like you are the problem. It is unfathomable that you can actually say that we do not need nationalism? So, we are not to be proud of our country? We shouldn't protect it from dolts like you? Just because something is occurring elsewhere doesn't mean we need, or have to, jump on the bandwagon.

    The next time someone jumps off a bridge in your area, I suggest you do the same....it is after, after all, what you believe Canada should do.....

    You are either IN Canada and a citizen or you are OUTSIDE of Canada and just another foreigner....there should not be any middle-ground. Make up your mind, stay or go, but don't treat Canada as a place of convenience when things get tough......we are not all suckers, as many on these boards paint us out to be.
  11. M. D. from Canada writes: The notion that someone coming to work and live in Canada, even temporarily, is detrimental to the country would be laughable if it weren't dangerous. The worker benefits, sure, but so does the company that hired her, those who own that company (i.e. your pension plan), those who do business with it, and those who are in contact with someone who was trained abroad, and therefore the acquisition of whose skills were not financed by the Canadian taxpayer. Generous immigration policies are necessary to attract this people.
  12. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: @L W from Somewhere: Without political correctness, and need for imported labor, there would be no immigration program, no immigrants, no suckers to prop up the Canadian economy. If immigrants are not needed in Canada, write a letter to MP, all of you xenophobs and bigots out there. Stop immigration and enjoy your country. You will do many people a favor, not just yourselves. Immigrants are admitted to this country for economic purpose (great majority is admitted to that purpose).

    So, fire up your Macs fellas and write your MPs. You can do it. If you could, there would be no need for immigrants. :)
  13. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country"

    This article is not about work visa's in Canada or abroad, it's not even about immigration, it's about Canadian citizens who have dual & multi-citizenships.

    It's time those that think of themselves as Canadian, but live abroad with citizenships from other countries, it's time they were forced to make a choice!

    It's time you choose which country your citizenship or better still your allegiance resides.

    Dual citizenships are an important tool but it needs refinement. It's very important that an immigrant to any country has this tool available to them. But it needs a time limit, at some point an immigrant should be required to make a choice, country "A" or country "B"! Five years, after which your dual citizenship expires, you either stay or go back to the other country. If you stay & then later want to return to that other country, you can apply as an immigrant.
  14. Lone Ranger from Canada writes: Tonto and I have serious reservations about the soundness of Mr. Valpy's views and comments about Canada day and canadian citizen ship.

    Maybe he should go back to his farm and run up his Ensign up the pole for further inspiration...in those kind of private conversation he entretains with himself

  15. Dan Farrell from Ottawa, Canada writes: I suspect that the reason so many Candians support dual citizenship is because unthinking and sometimes disingenuous politicians abetted by narrowly--owned media have been supporting the idea for so many yeas. Repetition that multiple citizenship makes Canada a more open, more generous society has ingrained the notion in the minds of younger Canadians so that they give it unthinking support.

    I suggest that if, and I doubt there are many cases, conferring the special privilege of dual citizenship on an individual can be shown to benefit Canada it may be acceptable for a few rare individuals. However, it should be born in mind that dual loyalties are not as reliable as wholehearted single-minded patriotism.

    And for those with dual nationality, it should be born in mind that many Canadians may feel less obliged to come to their assistance if they get themselves into trouble in their alternate country.
  16. E. Biggs from Canada writes: Sam It seems you have misunderstood the article or intentionally chose to.

    We need immigrants but the quetion is what kind and with what skills, what do we do with them when they get here, what should they do to help themselves and should they integrate with the rest of us, or remain separate?

    It would be stupid to suggest that once a person immigrates here and becomes a citizen that they forget about their country of orign.

    Nationalism in a country like Canada with its checks and balances and national attitiudes is not something to be feared.

    You cannot mandate alliegence nor national pride but you can do a couple of things:

    - Stop the dual citizenship
    - Place restrictions on the amount of money that can be shipped out of the country as billions of dollars leave here every year being sent home.

    I still ask the same question as above, in a time of Canadian crisis where would some (not all) of these people run or would they stay and help us deal with it?
  17. Sam G from Toronto, Canada writes: @E.Biggs: Question of allegiance is a shifty one. For one thing, the multikulti zoo we have in Canada does not benefit anyone. People who immigrate anywhere, only to maintain their "identity" are like people who buy iPhones to show "who they are." Political correctness is largely ornamental and meaningless. Also, Canada does not need as many immigrants as we are led to believe. Since I am an immigrant myself, I can say that from personal experience. What Canada needs is better leadership.
  18. E. Biggs from Canada writes: OK Sam No disagreement here.

    I think the only real hope we have is that the next couple of generations of the immigrants kids will likely not be as linked to the old country as the parents and perhaps identify more with Canada.

    I also have a problem with the numbers we are accepting and they can and do overpower locals if they determine to settle in a particular area and can completely alter that community.
    It is like opening a can of soup. The directions call for one can of water to be added not three. If you add three you completely alter the soup and make it into something not worth eating.

    The same goes with a country and we are dangerously close to having absolutely no identity or culture as a country.

    We don't and have not had any leadership with a vision for decades, just politicians looking for power.

  19. Wayne Morrison from Toronto, Canada writes: I was born here, I live here because I work here but I don't feel a particularly strong allegiance to the country. I teach, and while my students certainly take what Canada has to offer, benefiting from the freedoms and social safety net, I don't detect much of what people would call patriotism, or even affection. That being said, I also don't think there is anything wrong with either mine, or their, attitude. Canada is a place to live and work, and to use as a base when you want to head off and see the world. I enjoy what it has to offer, I behave like a good guest, but if somebody showed up with a gun I certainly wouldn't risk getting shot in order to defend it.
  20. Will Hoaccio from Canada writes: Go globalization, go! I don't know why the free flow of labor is so offensives to Canadians. The right wing salivates at this Libertarian dream of freetrade, unaware that freedom of labour and capitals are a major pillar of it (along with free flow of goods).

    Embarking on some populist isolationist direction would be the stupidest thing Canada could do. Our largest percentage of dual-passports are not with Pakistan, but with the USA and the Euro-bloc. My family has dual-british passports. There is NOTHING idealogical about it, we just don't like waiting in the customs lineup. Same for the other 20% of Canadians with dual citizenship.

    Putting restrictions on capital is scarily stupid though. Canada depends on foreign investment. Where do you think the money for the tar sands is coming from? Putting any restrictions on how much capital can be sent away would lead to a massive institutional capital flight. If it was aimed to stop remissions, normally under 10,000 dollars, the financial sector would be absolutely devastated.

    This IS globalization, get used to it. Nationalism is a bit to 20 century.
  21. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    "Canadians comprise 10 per cent of the population of Hong Kong."

    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that 10% of the population of Hong Kong are dual citizens of China and Canada.

    As if residing in Canada for the bare minimum (3 years) to acquire citizenship and then returning to your mother country makes one a "Canadian".
  22. Randal Oulton from Toronto, Canada writes: I think it's time to redo the Maple Leaf flag. It's dated, and reflects only an era where Canada had just Canadians in it for the most part. Now we are more porous and multi-cultural, and symbolism on the flag should be something less "excluding", less tied to a geographical location and cultural symbolism.
  23. Will Hoaccio from Canada writes: I guess the political spectrum really is more of a circle than a band. The further you go around, protectionists socialists and hicks are really one and the same! Both afraid of loosing their job to someone more qualified.

    We tried protectionism, it doesn't work. Go see Zimbabwe in all their autarkic glory. They kicked out all dual citizenship holders, their economy imploded.
  24. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    "Randal Oulton from Toronto, Canada writes: I think it's time to redo the Maple Leaf flag. It's dated, and reflects only an era where Canada had just Canadians in it for the most part. Now we are more porous and multi-cultural, and symbolism on the flag should be something less "excluding", less tied to a geographical location and cultural symbolism. "

    How about a hotel key instead of the Maple Leaf.
  25. joseph Cheng from Toronto, Canada writes: As a 3rd generation Canadian, I still can't help wondering if the majority of the so-called "accidental Canadians" are caucasians and not of the visible minority groups, will this issue ever come up?
  26. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: Will Hoaccio -

    No Zimbabwe kicked out white farmers, they just happened to be British dual citizens, then sanctions by the U.S. & U.E. began.

    You think Canada's not a protectionist country, crown land, crown corporations then go read the Communications Act, the Bank Act. We never stopped being protectionists & never will.

    What your actually thinking of is Cuba, a dictatorship! All countries practice protectionism to some degree, that's why we have borders & inside those boarders are countries. The only way to remove protectionism is to remove boarders & make all countries one, don't worry the IMF & World Bank are already working on it!

    Also Zimbabwe is a Republic, just like the USA & Russia!

    There's no reason to remove dual citizenships just place time limits on them, see my earlier post. With perpetual immigration & that's what we have, time limits would have no effect on a countries economy except to strengthen it.
  27. Will Hoaccio from Canada writes: joseph Cheng from Toronto, Canada writes: "As a 3rd generation Canadian, I still can't help wondering if the majority of the so-called "accidental Canadians" are Caucasians and not of the visible minority groups, will this issue ever come up?"

    Well, there is no official definition of "accidental Canadian", so nothing I am about to say is official, but I would think that the majority are in fact Caucasian. I am one, or at least the result of one. During the 60s, the Canadian government was providing foreigners free vacations to Canada that could be paid back when the traveler left Canada. My parents took advantage of that to get free travel to see expo '68 but couldn't find the money to pay back the initial travel costs, stranding them in Canada. Literally, accidental Canadians.

    The biggest groups of hyphenated Canadians are English, French, Scottish, Italian, German and then Chinese, in that order, so one would think the bulk of "accidental Canadians" would follow that pattern as well.
  28. Wicked Messenger from North Vancouver, Canada writes: I apologise for "bursting the Canada Day bubble" but I think this article is misguided. To draw national pride from the volume of Canadian citizens living outside the country is down right silly.

    The rest of the article waxes philisophically about the wonders of Canada's global's spirit and willingness to drop its history and culture in favour of becoming the "host nation" of the world. This is a politcally correct attitude which I cannot agree with.

    Here's an example- recently in Hong Kong a fellow ran for political office and he hols a Canadian passport! WHat a wonderful example of this fellows dedication to his Canadian citizenship!

    Mr. Volpy can move along right quick.
  29. Wicked Messenger from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Mr Deriso writes: "Do we need a common identity? Probably. All societies do. But what we do not need is nationalism, the notion that we are better than others simply for being in one place rather than another."

    Mr. Deriso- Did you happen to attend the Karl Marx Propaganda School for Impressionable Youth?

    Your notion of nationalism is midguided, inaccurate and downright childish.
  30. Wicked Messenger from North Vancouver, Canada writes:
    mighty conan from Calgary, Canada writes:

    The accidental Canadian... Some good, some bad to this, but I'm thinking the story hasn't changed all so much in a 125 years. Once it was W. Europe.

    Then it was E. Europe. Then it was S. Asia. Each time a political or economic circumstance has been the driver but the story is the same.

    Another misguided post- if you look deeply enough into the issues you will find it is NOT THE SAME at all.

    Previous generations of immigrants successfully integrated into Canadian society. They did not set up "mini-states" or communities which ultimately led to distinct cultural subsets based on ethnicity. If they did, today our cities would be composites of Ukrainian-Canadians, Italian-Candians, German-Canadians etc.

    Flash forward to our modern day and consider the cultural impact of immigration from Asia.
  31. Wicked Messenger from North Vancouver, Canada writes: "Randal Oulton from Toronto, Canada writes: I think it's time to redo the Maple Leaf flag. It's dated, and reflects only an era where Canada had just Canadians in it for the most part. Now we are more porous and multi-cultural, and symbolism on the flag should be something less "excluding", less tied to a geographical location and cultural symbolism. "

    look at this post...redo the flag...sad sad sad ....and what symbols would include on our flag- perhaps something to reflect Canada's new role as "savior nation" of the world? yes get rid of that politically incorrect maple leaf- after all a new arrival may find it offensive!
  32. Paul S from Canada writes: Political groups are formed due to the benefits that the individual derives from membership. Emotional nationalism, 'identity' - whatever that is supposed to be - "ask not what..." - all that is not relevant at all.

    I pay taxes not out of some emotive loyalty to some abstract idea but for the concrete and immediate practical benefits one is supposed to be buying.

    When the burdens or cost of membership exceeds the benefits then its reasonable not to care about the queen and her taxes.

    Just because the government likes to pump out emotive nationalist propaganda - in part to make people less rational about the utility of the government and our social contract with it - does not mean that individuals need to be so irrationally stupid.
  33. Wicked Messenger from North Vancouver, Canada writes: "Sue W from Canada writes: Part-time home to some part-time Canadians with part-time allegiance to Canada.

    Only in Canada would there be celebration."

    This is someone who gets it. She is absolutely right- ONLY IN CANADA would there be a celebration.

    ie, only in Canada is there a warped enough national self-image to celebrate such a thing.

    the only people who could legitimately celebrate such a thing are canadian corporations, government and "internationalist" canadians.

    the rest of us should pick up a copy of "Lament for a Nation" by George Grant and promptly begin reading.
  34. Anna from from Canada writes:
    Canadian citizenship is a great thing to have in the event that these people don't make it elsewhere. We have generous social programs. It is too bad these people are entitled to many of them when they are not required to pay taxes. It is time we switch our taxation from one that is residency based to one that is residency plus citizenship based. Americans think enough of their country to require non esidents to file tax returns. Makes one want to leave the country.
  35. Will Hoaccio from Canada writes: I agree with Paul S on this one. Nationalism is a way to coddle weaker individuals, like every -ism that came before it (communism, fascism, catholicism, islamism). By virtue of associating yourself with an abstract and non-existent concept, you feel a sense of grandeur.
  36. Aileen Nowlan from Canada writes: Saying Canada doesn't have a culture is like saying we don't have air; we don't recognize it because it's all around. In Delhi, India I have talked about hockey with a woman born in Afghanistan and raised outside Toronto. In Washington DC I have talked about politics with a Montrealer who plays professional hockey in Switzerland. As an international Canadian, I believe living outside Canada has made me adhere more strongly to Canadian values because I've seen racism, drudgery and other afflictions that our hard-fought social institutions protect us against. I defend for hours public health care and welcoming of diversity. The question of whether or not Canada has an identity is moot. We already have one, and sometimes it takes living abroad to throw it into the light. It's ironic. People in other countries will offer a string of adjectives, usually starting with 'friendly'. When I met people in Kashmir and told them I'm Canadian, they smiled a big smile. One said, "I knew Pierre Trudeau. I took him hiking. Good man." To people who say living outside of Canada is insulting or dangerous, history will prove you wrong. Let's set minimum requirements, by all means; I pay my taxes in Canada and so should everyone with a passport. Should we airlift people out of conflicts? Maybe not. By making a welcoming country for immigrants, returnees, and life-long residents we'll only help ourselves make the best of the shifting sands of globalization.
  37. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes, "It's time those that think of themselves as Canadian, but live abroad with citizenships from other countries, it's time they were forced to make a choice!" If the Canadian government were to force me to make a choice--as a born and bred Canadian who is living down south educating myself, but holds dual citizenship--I can honestly say I don't what I'd choose. If it matters, I am 100% Canadian and proud, and I tell people that. And I want to go home to Canada when I'm done here. But if an opportunity I couldn't resist were to come up? At the end of the day, bread and butter always win out--as it always has. Whatever passport, though, that I hold in my hand doesn't change the fact that I am and always will be a Canadian.
  38. E. Biggs from Canada writes: Wayne Just as aside, what would you fight amd risk your neck for?

    Family?Friends? or anything?
  39. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: Just like everywhere else, there are incomers who take advantages of a well intended country and they have never worked or contributed to the country. There are incomers who work hard and wish for a better life either for themselves and/or for their future generations. There are people who are Canadian Citizens by birth and who have never contributed to this country or have decided to live, work or retire somewhere else. There are refugees who come here either with legitimate or economic reasons. What the government should do is to establish policies that would reduce abuses for all ill intended purposes. Here are some of my suggestions: 1) A longer waiting period from 3 to 6 or 7 years to obtain a Canadian Citizen. During this period, one has to show that they have made contribution to Canada such as paying income taxes, working or volunteering, etc.,etc.. 2) A fast track refugees process of 2 to 4 weeks so that all illegitimate refugees can return quickly without creating heavy burden to Canada and a long interruption to the refugee life. 3) A tax system that taxes income worldwide for Canadian citizens and immigrants alike offset by foreign tax if work outside of Canada. 4) A pension and old age security system that takes into account on years of work and residences (already apply in some situations). People can revoke their citizenship or immigrant status if requested but no preferential treatment for re-apply. On the other hands, government has serious responsibilities to help these new comers to establish in Canada. Why would Canada accept people because of their skills and education and then turn around disqualify them for lack of Canadian experiences and Canadian credentials. It is difficult to impose on business but the government can start with government jobs first. Canada should help and protect Canadians outside of country regardless where they are located. (to be continued)
  40. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: (cont.) As our nation turns into a melting pot and so as many other countries to attract and compete for qualified people to support their future economy, free diversity training is advantageous not just for immigrants but for our long stayed citizens who have limited exposure to the outside world. Fear of being taken advantage of and misunderstanding among various groups can feed into anger and hatred. There is no way to turn back the clock and with the mobile world, Canada future is depending on our ability to keep and attract highly skilled and educated people.
  41. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: Regardless of whether you are in Canada by birth or by choice, I believe feeling of closeness, affiliation and love will develop over time towards Canada where you live, work and raise your family. There will always be some exceptions but that is life as with everything else.
  42. Slippery Slope from Canada writes: You have to ask yourself that there must be a problem when 10 percent of Hong Kong SAR are Candian citizens. The reason most of them got it is because they made refugee claims when they were about to be returned to China, became citizens and then returned to the land they felt persecuted. They, along with their children are now Canadian citizens. It's ridiculous and they are just a portion.

    Citizenship should belong to those born here, those who immigrated but not refugees.
  43. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: L Chang I can agree that Canada should help and protect Canadians outside of country regardless where they are located - to a point. The situation with Lebanon was one example of the problems with this approach. Many of those being rescued had not lived here for decades, contribute nothing, feel no loyalty to Canada, and returned to Lebanon within a short time after Canadian taxpayers paid the cost of the 'rescue'. They do not even need to return every five years to renew their passport. At some point we need to say, you do not live, pay taxes or make any other contribution to the country and passport should be revoked. We have the Kahdr family that hates Canada and fought against our troops but returned to get free medical care for a son wounded in Afghanistan. They should have their citizenship revoked and be shipped back to Afghanistan. In the Balkans a Canadian citizen who was elected and became Defence Minister and was responsible for ethnic cleansing and fought against Canadian Peacekeepers. As soon as he was elected he should have had his citizenship revoked. These are the people causing the problems. We don't need people bringing the war and hatred to this country. If they want to fight let them go back to where they came from. They only turn public attitudes against those who genuinely want to be part of Canada and have a chance of building a good life here.
  44. Anna from from Canada writes: Will writes " I agree with Paul S on this one. Nationalism is a way to coddle weaker individuals, like every -ism that came before it (communism, fascism, catholicism, islamism). By virtue of associating yourself with an abstract and non-existent concept, you feel a sense of grandeur."

    Hey will, how about internationalism? That is an ism; is it not? Speaking of abstract concepts, there is love, democracy, hate, freedom, equality, sexism, racism. ......

    Now these are abstract concepts, and I dare suggest that they are existent by the virtue of the fact that we have names to define these concepts. So quite frankly, I think your post makes little sense.
  45. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    "Canadians comprise 10 per cent of the population of Hong Kong."

    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that 10% of the population of Hong Kong are dual citizens of China and Canada.
    ********************************************************

    To J.C. Davies: your statement is inaccurate. There are many Canadians (with different origins) working in Hong Kong and they are not Chinese citizens. Also, the earlier mass immigration of people with Chinese origin to Canada was from Hong Kong under British rule at the time. We were not Chinese citizens and do not have dual citizenships. Our children are mostly Canadians by birth.

  46. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: Slippery Slope from Canada writes: You have to ask yourself that there must be a problem when 10 percent of Hong Kong SAR are Candian citizens. The reason most of them got it is because they made refugee claims when they were about to be returned to China, became citizens and then returned to the land they felt persecuted. They, along with their children are now Canadian citizens. It's ridiculous and they are just a portion.

    Citizenship should belong to those born here, those who immigrated but not refugees.

    ****************************************************
    To Slippery Slope: I have no respect on people who rant with ignorance.
  47. Wilma De Bruyn from Toronto, Canada writes: Our part home and native land.

    And Minister should be responsible for this statement???

    They are twofold:1.) It is the Natives land NOT BRITISH.
    2.) Part time comes with the legislation and
    Immigration Minister concocting up these rules and regulations.
    And the most interesting question is who much money do Immigration
    profit from this part time scenario??It's always about the money and
    profit of course, and I wonder if it is legal human smuggling so to speak!!!Just as Politicians squander taxpayers monies which they think is bottomless!!!
  48. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: To Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg: your point is well taken and I agree. Adding to my suggestions of taxing worldwide income and tougher rules to obtain Canadian Citizenship, you are right that some additional rule should apply to people who hold dual citizenships to ensure that they are not using Canada as a country of convenience.
  49. Wilma De Bruyn from Toronto, Canada writes: And while were out celebrating "Canada Day" check out Bill C-51,
    trust we will not enter into a Police State, but it is questionable.
    All ready in it's second reading.
  50. Nassar Ben Houdja from Canada writes: Part time Canadians should have their benifits as such adjusted accordingly. Full time Canadians are getting tired of picking up the bill for "Canadians of convience" whenever they need bailing out of something they got themselves into, frequently because they have assorted nationalities.
  51. Anna from from Canada writes: L Chang

    We do have a taxation system that taxes worldwide income for RESIDENTS of Canada. A Canadian citizen can cut ties with Canada if they are residing abroad and avoid paying taxes altogether until they are ready to return, probably when they need to milk our social programs.
  52. Margaret Ahsan from Winnipeg, Canada writes: My late husband was proud that he had a single nationality-CANADIAN. This did not stop him from taking pride in his immigrant culture,but he also chose to meld it to the existing Canadian culture. It is sad to see immigrant groups aggressively attempting to force the culture they willingly left onto the populace of their new country,and we,as Canadians are being forced to accept this in the name of "reasonable accommodation". It is even sadder to see third generation Canadian children identifying themselves as other than Canadian. It is time we did away with multiple nationality. It is time we legislated a longer period before the granting of Canadian citizenship.It is time citizens of convenience living abroad paid into the social benefits conferred upon them. It is time we became more choosy about those we allow into our country. It is time newcomers were given a list of expectations that Canadians have of them rather than what expectations Canadians are expected to submit to. It is great that Canada is a multicultural country,but how long can we continue to exist as multiple solitudes?
  53. Will Hoaccio from Canada writes: Anna from from Canada writes: "

    Hey will, how about internationalism? That is an ism; is it not? Speaking of abstract concepts, there is love, democracy, hate, freedom, equality, sexism, racism. ......

    Now these are abstract concepts, and I dare suggest that they are existent by the virtue of the fact that we have names to define these concepts. So quite frankly, I think your post makes little sense."

    I would consider love an emotion along with hate, and not really a concept as such (love-ism, not that is a different story!). Democracy is an organizational system, and less of a concept.

    Or people associate with the view that one sex or race (almost always theirs) is better than another, and therefore they should be taken seriously (sexism, racism). You can't really apply "freedom" to yourself, though I agree it is a rather vague term.

    At the end of the day, I disagree with most self applied "isms". When people where a Nike sweater and assosciate themselves with Tiger Woods, or evoke some nationality. A lot of my friends are Greek, and they have an annoying habit of referencing Achilles or Plato, and then concluding that by virtue of being Greek, they are comparable to Plato and Achilles.

    It happened in interwar Germany. Social commentators and nationalist politicians combed Germany's history looking for exceptional figures like Wagner and Bach, and then concluded that because there are amazing Germans, all Germans are by definition superior.

    Whatever I am, I am. I'm not better or worse because I am Canadian. It upsets me when people think they are better or worse because of some superficial "ism."
  54. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: by all means change the flag, in fact why not get rid of it altogether if you follow mr valpy's logic. why have any symbols that may offend some person of some certain ethnic background or religion. multi-culturalism is devoid of meaning. if the main purpose of your country's idealogy is to recognise everyone's differences, how do you expect to build a coherent nation? it is possible to build a multi-racial society but i question if in the long term a nation like canada can hold itslef together. in my view citizenship should only be granted to someone born in the country of parents who have been there a minimum of 10 years. migrants who come in and use the country like a public facility - hongkongers and lebanese who ran back to their true homelands for example - should have their right of abode or resident status stripped. there is more to being a citizen then taking an oath and holding a passport. valpy and his ilk don't get that and they want the general public to believe it too. whenever i meet somone from canada who has immigrated and taken citizenship i never consider them a true canadian. to claim so is an insult to anyone who was born and raised there.
  55. Chris E. from Canada writes: It's pretty easy for people to forget the sacrifices made in the last 150 years to build this country.

    Or the thousands of years of Western advancements that are all around us in our laws, arts, sciences, philosophies, shared history, architecture, languages, customs, genetics and values.

    To some, this country is still terra nullis; a blank page to write a new chapter of their ethnic national identity upon. A Chinese will always be a part of the global Chinese population, an Indian or Pakistani will always be a part of the global South Asian population. If their aggressive migration continues, this land will become just an extension of their home.
  56. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: chris e. well said, no truer words spoken
  57. Yussi M from Canada writes:
    Chris E.: And whats' wrong with that? Remember, unlike other countries we are not a nation state; we are a mosaic of different communities.

    fergua macduff: If anything, teh immigrants have more claim than native-borns to the title of a Canadian because they had to earn it (pass all tests, pay fees, wait for an extended period and so on) and native-borns were given the citizenship just for being born in one place and not other.
  58. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: Anna from from Canada writes: L Chang

    We do have a taxation system that taxes worldwide income for RESIDENTS of Canada. A Canadian citizen can cut ties with Canada if they are residing abroad and avoid paying taxes altogether until they are ready to return, probably when they need to milk our social programs.
    ********************************************************
    Ann, that is why I suggest our taxation system should apply to all citizens and immigrants not just residents of Canada and the taxes paid should be offset by foreign tax if working outside of the country. By granting non-resident status to citizens and immigrants so they don't have to pay Canadian taxes while keeping Canadian privileges is not the way to go.
  59. Laura B from Toronto, Canada writes: I could say the same thing about England. I'm a Canadian who is studying in London, England at grad school and I'm returning to Canada permanently next week. My program and my school are full of international students here for the education, hoping to bring their skills home to contribute to their countries. In this day in age, human mobility has become the norm for people the world over, not just Canada. I would suggest that Canada can benefit greatly from this, contrary to the pessimistic tone that this article seems to take. Young Canadians can go out into the world and gain skills, knowledge, and experience and then bring it all back to Canada when they return.
  60. Yussi M from Canada writes:
    L Chang,

    Such system would amount to discrimination of the new, multicultural Canadians; it would favor old-stock Canadians. Statistically, multicultural Canadians are more likely to move abroad, for example to their country of birth or to the US, that native-born Canadians. Such discrimination on the basis of country of origin would be unconstitutional.
  61. Jack Laird from Toronto, Canada writes: I can identify with this article, but I'm neither an immigrant nor a dual citizen. When I think about issues that matter to me deeply, most of them are global in nature and not solely, if at all, Canadian.

    At the end of the day, maybe it's because things are pretty much in hand here! I'm not saying that there aren't issues worth our attention in this country or in our provinces and cities, but they generally pale in comparison to what is happening elsewhere in the world.

    I think it's a great thing that we are outwardly focused, that we take care of our own citizens, and that we contribute greatly in the world!
  62. Chris E. from Canada writes: We have to act now to impose discriminatory immigration policies, because we don't want to become 'New China' or 'New Pakistan' in 20 years.

    The adversary is neither the Chinese or Pakistani people. They're just trying to advance their individual part of their ethnic-national cause.

    The adversaries are the globalizationists who will not rest until every inch of this planet is earning them money. They are the chief immigration enthusiasts. Their tactic is to pressure sovereign governments in the West to open borders to consumers.

    This puts them in direct conflict with Canadians who care about the past, present, and future of this land.
  63. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: To Yussi M from Canada: I am a visible minority Canadian by choice and there is possibility one day that my children (Canadians at birth) may work somewhere else other than Canada. There is no intent to discriminate anyone, whether new or old stock Canadians. Citizenship comes with privileges and responsibilities. We cannot just take without give.
  64. E. Biggs from Canada writes: Laura we have thousands of students here studying with the intent of returning to their homeland but that is not what the article is talking about. These students are not citizens but foreign nationals.

    Let me throw out something else for discussion.

    OK so we don't have a highly developed sense of nationalism and many do not have a great attachment to Canada.
    We now go into negotiations with other nations on a variety of issues that will impact this country now and in the future. Many of these countries Russia, China, India, USA etc. etc. are all very strong nationalists who place their nation before the world.

    If we are not strong in our position where does that leave us in these negotiations? If it really does not matter, do we concede a number of points to the stronger nations? Let's say the arctic, Nafta, international trade issues?

    Folks I am asking this as I read a lot of complaining over our supposed failure to push hard on Nafta etc.
  65. David Gibson from Hamilton, Canada writes: Kanada consists of Ottawa, Toronto, and Vancouver. The rest of us are in Canada.
  66. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: yusi m. big deal you pass a test, pay some money, stay for 2 years. wow, what a commitment. give me a break. nationhood and citizenship are something you don't get from a test. you need to live the culture, experience the way of life and be immersed in the day to day goings on to truely understand a country and a culture. i could move to pakistan or china tomorrow and in the great unlikelihood i were granted citizenship, would you or anyone else consider me a chinese or pakistani citizen? doubtful. and why? mostly because i am white. so why do western nations sell their citizenships so cheaply to so called ethnics? and why do only western nations see themselves as mosaics and not base citizenship on ethnic basis? i recently sat in a vancouver taxi and listened to the kurdish driver tell me and my mate - who is a metis from saskatchewan - there was no such thing as canadian culture. he is an idiot and i am certain his views are quite represtative of 'ethnics' who immigrate to canada. as for deserving it more for passing a test, that makes me laugh. i deserve it more for putting up with -40 C weather, and watching my family struggle to make a living on the prairies with no gov't help, and by contributing with taxes and volunteering efforts in the community in which we lived. and since i left, but cutting all ties and expectations from the country itself. so with all due respect, your comment is out of order.
  67. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: a part time home and native land does not really make a sustainable nation state. i guess canada should throw the doors open to everyone and let everyone and anyone who can make it there in. after all, they won't stay long. it's a yann martel hotel. but we pay you to come. and you can checkout anytime and we keep on paying.
    what happened with your country people?
  68. Pierre-Yves P from Toronto, Canada writes: to fergus macduff from United Kingdom if Canada would throw the doors open to everyone and let everyone and anyone who can make it there in, the society we enjoy would not be possible. Canada selects its immigrans on the basis of skills, qualification and ability to integrate. Other countries, like France, reject the concept of selected immigration on ideological grounds, but find themselves stuck with populations that do not integrate and create serious problems. Canadian immigration policies are pragmatic and explain a lot of the soaring success story Canada has become today, wielding enormous influence, and showcasing a blueprint for the global village. So if it ain`t broke, don`t fix it. Goodwill, ingenuity, openness, and diversity, these are not values to be ashamed of.
  69. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: L Chang says: "that is why I suggest our taxation system should apply to all citizens and immigrants not just residents of Canada and the taxes paid should be offset by foreign tax if working outside of the country.'

    To L Chang I say: This problem wouldnt even exist if it wasnt for the trend-setting hong kong immigrants who innovated the fine art of immigrant usury.
  70. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "Yussi M from Canada writes:
    Chris E.: And whats' wrong with that? Remember, unlike other countries we are not a nation state; we are a mosaic of different communities."

    We are a mosiac because the Cdn Govt unilaterally santioned it to be so.

    The general Canadian public was never asked if they wanted their country to become the "new asia"
  71. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "Chris E. from Canada writes: It's pretty easy for people to forget the sacrifices made in the last 150 years to build this country."

    Chris E. makes good point, and the reason why its "pretty easy to forget" is because our govt and business people make no effort to help us remember.

    Case in point- Canadian History courses are only mandatory at a high school level in three provinces- one of course is Quebec.

    the other two are Ontario and NB.

    Of course no such thing would be mandatory in BC- the powers that be WANT us to forget our history- self-knowledge is not in their best interest- they would rather focus on convincing us that becoming Asian is the best way to go.
  72. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: Regardless of whether you are in Canada by birth or by choice, I believe feeling of closeness, affiliation and love will develop over time towards Canada where you live, work and raise your family."

    This is idealistic poppycock. Current immigration and multiculturalism will prove itself to be the most divisive element in Canadian history.
  73. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "David Gibson from Hamilton, Canada writes: Kanada consists of Ottawa, Toronto, and Vancouver. The rest of us are in Canada."

    I completely agree- the "one world order" begins in cosmopolitian urban cities.

    We should really face the truth about our country- the powers that be have taken a nation built on a foundation of post-european English and French cultures( as well as First Nations) and unilaterally turned it into the world's premier global village.

    And who asked Canadians if we wanted this? No one! If our country is going to become the prime mover in globalism should the public at least be asked if the people want this?

    Do you see how democracy is being impacted here? Today human rights commissions can go after comedians. Do you know another country where that used to happen? think totalitarian and you will come up with it.
  74. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "Canadians comprise 10 per cent of the population of Hong Kong."

    "Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that 10% of the population of Hong Kong are dual citizens of China and Canada."

    I think it would be more accurate to say that our govt created something called called EXPO 86 to lure rich hong kong people to Canada. It back-fired and we have never been the same since.

    Remember, any "Expo" in Canada is ostensibly a marketing plan to lure international money. Expo 67 was the same.
  75. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Yussi M from Canada writes: "Remember, unlike other countries we are not a nation state; we are a mosaic of different communities."

    -----------------

    WRONG! We are a nation. Many Canadians do not accept multiculturalism and never have...it was foisted upon us by the bleeding heart lefties of the time (i.e. Trudeau [may he rot in Hell]).

    ________________
    "fergua macduff: If anything, teh immigrants have more claim than native-borns to the title of a Canadian because they had to earn it (pass all tests, pay fees, wait for an extended period and so on) and native-borns were given the citizenship just for being born in one place and not other."

    And your statement highlights EXACTLY what's wrong with this country....the belief that newcomers deserve more and should have more rights than people born here. Sorry, but you are not a true Canadian unless you are born here. Your statement only convinces me that we need to severely restrict immigration, scrap multiculturalism and begin insisting that people coming here speak english and integrate or leave.
  76. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: Regardless of whether you are in Canada by birth or by choice, I believe feeling of closeness, affiliation and love will develop over time towards Canada where you live, work and raise your family. ________________This is idealistic poppycock. Current immigration and multiculturalism will prove itself to be the most divisive element in Canadian history."

    ------------------------

    Bravo, well said....and so true. Its time to shut the door and insist that people newly arrived integrate or get the hell out. If you want to make Canada into the image of where you came from, why did you even leave? If your homeland was so great that you have to try and recreate it here, then go the hell back.
  77. Templeton Jones from Windsor, Canada writes:

    Canada is simply too damn big to have one overriding identity. In time the trend towards balkanization will be complete.
  78. Pierre-Yves P from Toronto, Canada writes: Almost surrealistic to read these doomsday prophecies about the evils of muticulturalism and the dangers of balkanization. In the old country I came from a long time ago, there is a saying you can become a citizen by blood received or by blood shed - tough choice really, luckily Canada does not force such a quandary upon its newcomers, which does not mean becoming a Canadian is easy: it takes hard work, humility, and an open mind. Those who do not have all this fail, so why worry about them? Alas I know these words are useless, it is my experience that native Canadians have no freaking idea how lucky they are to live in such a great country. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side.
  79. echo demir from pei, Canada writes: Nobody says or asks why those 3 million dont live in canada and why they left from canada.I dont think 3 million of them came to canada to get passaport. No developed countries citizens live out of country but 3 million canadian lives out of Canada.So Canada should look at itself and try to find out whats wrong with the system. Australia accepts immigrants as Canada does but they dont move out of country as soon as they get their passaport.
    if you accept a doctor or teacher immigrant from overseas and if you dont give them canadian creditiantals to work in canada, i think, they have right to leave. All immigrants aim is to make money and move back to their country oneday.it is the same everywhere wherever you are.i dont think that an immigrant comes to canada for fresh water, good nature.they come here to make money,they work where canadians dont work,so i think, people who say immigrants use canada to get passaport,they should ask themselves why we can not keep immigrants in Canada and why they leave from canada.If you check stats canada website,you can see that canadian born people make almost double more than canadians.
    leave immigrants alone otherwise you should invent robots to work in factories ,to drive cars....
  80. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: To Fergus macduff from United Kingdom: have you ever asked yourself why you got so angry at the ‘ethics’ Canadians or immigrants? If a white Canadian answered that there is no Canadian culture, would you not just laugh it off or argue with him/her? So you think it is ok to call the Kurdish tax driver an idiot because he could not give you an answer that you like. So the non-white immigrants or Canadians are not putting up with minus 40 C weather, and not struggle to make a living and not paying taxes nor volunteering efforts? And you think it is ok for you to stay in United Kingdom, probably paying no Canadian tax but be able to return as you wish to enjoy the social benefits here because you are a Canadian by birth and you are white? Nobody just walk into Canada without Canadian government acceptance. These immigrants also have sacrifices to make in moving to Canada. Look around the government and exec offices in Canada, how many senior managers are visible minorities in proportion to the total population mix? This is the privilege by being in Canada first. So the Kurdish tax driver is not one of us who are paying for the social benefits for the older folks? So the Kurdish driver and/or his children are not one of the folks who will be paying for the social benefits when most of us retire? Have some respect on ‘all’ Canadians and immigrants who come here. How do you know children with various origins cannot adapt if they are brought up here? People stay in Canada because it is a better place to live and they will fight for Canada for the right reason. Have you not thought that discriminating and degrading attitude displaced by many posters here is one of the reasons for revolving door and the need to maintain dual citizenships by the ethics groups. There will be no 'New China' nor 'New Pakistan' to replace Canada in 20 years but for sure there will be a ‘New and changed Canada’. Better learn how to adapt, folks. Good night, everyone.
  81. Pierre-Yves P from Toronto, Canada writes: to L Chang from Ontario : well said buddy.
  82. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: i have dual citizenship and moved to canada at a young age. i dont live right now in the country i was born (only been back there once in my lifetime), but i do make use of the second passport from time to time. in fact, the only reason i use the second passport is because its valid for ten years while the canadian passport is valid for only five. and since i travel a lot, i need them both since one passport can fill up in 2-3 years....

    at any rate, i consider myself 100% canadian, i spent most of my life in canada, i served in the canadian forces, i still pay taxes in canada on income i have in canada. i dont consider my canadian citizenship one of convenience.

    as for the comment in the article stating that 10% of the population of hong kong are canadian citizens, thats misleading. how many of them only gained canadian citizenship in the years leading up to and after 1997, when hong kong reverted back to chinese control? and how long have those people actually spent in canada since?
  83. Alex MacLean from Toronto, Canada writes: I dislike the idea that we are about nothing at all, just this blank canvas you can come here to and make it whatever you like. Because there is a Canadian-ness that I value, one I'm not willing to forgo just because wave of immigrants come here expecting to retain their culture. Many of those cultures are illiberal, small-minded, homophobic and, frankly, racist. We need to take the Dutch approach: make sure they understand what we are about. If, like the Khadr family, they are not comfortable with our social liberalism and tolerance, then perhaps they'd better shop around. There are, I believe, about 200 nation states on this earth, and if they keep looking they are sure to find one that suits their needs and expectations. The last thing we need more of is religious fundamentalists of any religion coming here and believing they can carve out a little mini-nation with its own laws, norms and attitudes if they are in contradiction with Canadian values - openness, freedom of religion, tolerance and even friendliness. You certainly don't find that in many countries on this earth. The more I travel, the less I can imagine living anywhere else. And I will fight to keep it that way.
  84. shane hashmi from Vancouver, Canada writes: I think different people have different perspectives of being Canadian. Some would think if you're living in Canada, you're a Canadian, while others would think, to be Canadian, you should drink Molson Canadian beer, watch hockey and adopt the Canadian accent and make sure you incorporate "eh" in your speech.

    I am an immigrant myself so for some I may be a Canadian but for others, I may not. But I don't care. I will be celebrating Canada Day along with visible/non visible, immigrants/non immigrants whatever. Long Live Canada!
  85. Brian King from Sydney, Australia writes: I am part of the Canadian Diaspora and your article brought a tear to my eye; well, more than one tear, if truth be told. We Canadians are a unique species: generally polite, better educated and better informed of the world around us than most others; proud and patriotic without being jingoistic. We don't start wars with small, defenceless countries and generally don't interfere in the affairs of other nations unless we have something worthwhile to contribute. We are usually welcomed wherever we travel and make ourselves felt in myriad ways which are usually beneficial to those around us. I have always been proud to be a Canadian, but never more than when I am away from my home and native land.
  86. old curmudgeon from Armenia writes: I agree with John Deriso. If nationalism could be confined to "I'm proud of my country", that would be alright. But it always slips into "I'm better than you". As a result, we get Nazi Germany, skinheads, Ku Klux Clans, ethnic cleansing and US invasions (not to mention the ridiculously overpriced internet services that come with made-in-Canada policies). As a Canadian, I fully appreciate the benefits of Canada, and accept the responsibility to ensure that it remains one of the best places to live. But the fact that I was born Canadian was an accident of birth--I can't claim any credit for it. It's the Canadian system in which I believe, not some vague notion of being Canadian (whatever that means). I've been working abroad for many years, while continuing to pay Canadian taxes for services I don't get to use. But I will gladly pay them to ensure the continuation of the Canadian system, so that when I return I will be able to obtain affordable healthcare and education for my children. And how do the patriots who argue otherwise purport to advance their notion of nationalism? Canada doesn't have the resources to force it on the world like other countries. Maybe a start would be to salute the flag every morning (there's something satisfying, in a pagan way, about worshipping a piece of cloth) and to adopt the "my country right or wrong" mantra of our neighbours to the south? Why do we have to label ourselves? Why can't we just appreciate the benefits of being Canadian and do our best to ensure that the country becomes even more fair and just to all?
  87. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: ed lewis, the quote you highlighted is not mine, it came from l chang and i have refuted it through my comments. go back a read the thread. i agree it is what is wrong with the country, but i don't support it. l chang, who said i hate ethnics? that is the problem with multicult supporters, they hear a dissenting opinion and they attack the dissenter with the racism/hate card. i don't hate anybody, i have lived, worked and travelled all over the globe. but i do hate the idea of canada as a part time home. i don't live there and i make NO claims on the country or its resources. i don't fly in for medical needs or anything else. i cut the ties and that is that. but this article is about people who DON'T. and the cases of hong kongers for example who fly in and out to maintain visas is well documented and well known. why deny the problem exists? if immigrants do not see the country has a unique culture they will never see the need to fit into anything and become part of a unique way of living which i will argue canada has in spades. but, if the gov't policy and the view of immigrants is that there isn't a unique culture and way of life, the country is doomed to become yann martel's hotel. and if the majority of people are happy with that, so be it. but i would guess the majority aren't and as many have stated no one asked the people what they wanted. how about a referendum on immigration levels and the sources of the people?
  88. Mike B from Canada writes: Anna from from Canada writes:
    "Canadian citizenship is a great thing to have in the event that these people don't make it elsewhere. We have generous social programs. It is too bad these people are entitled to many of them when they are not required to pay taxes. "

    Anna, please tell me what I am entitled to collect from Canada while not paying taxes? Exactly what benefits? Health care? no. Canada pension? no. The right to free education for my children? wrong. the right to carry a Canadian passport? bought and paid for. Sorry Anna, you need to help me out here. I can't figure out what I get in return for my citizenship, other than the pride in calling myself a Canadian. Born and raised, but at this time, not resident.
  89. Charlie Delta from Canada writes: Canada is about tolerance. There's nothing wrong with dual citizenships and it is not exploitative. Practically everyone came from abroad, you, your parents, your grandparents etc. If you want to go down the route of single allegiance to one country and no one else that means if Canada goes to war with a country you have friends or relatives in, you should be the one holding the gun at their head. You think this is reasonable?

    Yes, there are some that abuse the privilege of being Canadian but the nature of Canada is to be tolerant of those individuals as well. There's always a bad apple but don't throw the baby out with the bath water!
  90. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: "Mike B from Canada writes: Anna, please tell me what I am entitled to collect from Canada while not paying taxes? Exactly what benefits? Health care? no. Canada pension? no. The right to free education for my children? wrong. the right to carry a Canadian passport?
    __________

    people who dont live in canada for years may not pay taxes, but that doesnt preclude them from using the services available in canada once they return. just to provide one example, health care privileges are available once you've been back in the country a few months (depending on province).

    further, unless you declare yourself a non resident for tax purposes, most government agencies may never know you were out of the country in the first place.

    there are plenty of ways for people to take advantage of canada while contributing nothing to the country.
  91. Anna from from Canada writes: Mike B.

    You can live and earn somewhere else for years and come back here when you are retired and enjoy the free health care that you never paid into. That is just one example. I know several people that have come here to enjoy taxpayer subsidized post secondary education, though they plan on leaving as soon as they graduate. Not sure about guaranteed income supplement. Oh and you can go to Lebanon and have the Canadian taxpayer bail you out in an emergency though you don't pay taxes. But health care is still the best example. Most health care is generally required in the later years of life and if you only return at retirement age, well,,,,
  92. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: charlie delta, your question is an interesting one. i guess the answer would be, if they aren't holding the gun at the enemy's head, they'll be holding it to yours.

    i'll give you a scenario. china invades taiwan and it ends with the west at war in asia with the chinese. who do you think the chinese in canada will be fighting for? not all, but maybe a good few will support china. do you round them up like WWII? whoops can't do that because it will infringe on their human rights. so now you have an enemy within. and it isn't about skin colour or eye shape so don't go there. it is about allegience. it is about believing you are canadian before you are something else. who would you trust in such a situation? would you be asking the gov't for help? you can come up with a tonne of examples. muslim fanatics? neo nazis. the list goes on.

    canada is to liberal with handing out citizenship; if you come to canada that's nice but you should not be given citizenship until you have shown commitment by living in the country and being useful members of society for a very long period of time. and if you leave like the lebanonese appear to have, you lose the passport and your citizenship.
  93. Anna from from Canada writes: Hey Charlie,

    When counting the number of friends and family members that Canadians have in other countries, I bet you the U.S has the majority of those friends and family members. I bet you most Canadians who advocate for such "tolerance" would not feel the same if they thought they were advocating dual allegiance with the Americans as opposed to the Chinese or Europeans, for example.

    Yesterday, while I was running some errands, I couldn't help but notice the number of foreign flags people were flying on the sides of their car. I doubt people would be so apathetic if I chose to attach an American flag to mine.
  94. Charlie Delta from Canada writes: @Anna:

    You're right, we Canadians spend disproportionately too much time worrying about Americans. Just look at the surveys of how 50% of Cdns think we're different whereas 20% of Americans think they're different from us. I don't believe we're that different. It is pathetic that people need to define what it means to be Canadian in terms of American.

    It's unfair to say that George Bush or any Presidential policies are representative of everyone who calls themselves Americans. I certainly don't agree with everything Chretien or Harper is doing.

    If Canadians don't want to be "global citizens" then vote to build a wall to protect Canada from the rest of the world. Trade with no one, be self-sufficient, live like an Amish community. Give up anything foreign made, oh, like the Internet.

    Proud and ignorant, that's just what this country needs more of isn't it?
  95. Charlie Delta from Canada writes: @Anna

    While it frustrates me that there are people who do not pay taxes here, live elsewhere and then come back and enjoy the health care system, what about people who pay a disproportionate amount to support the system for others?

    Taxation as the CRA will tell you follows the 80/20 rule. 20% of people pay 80% of taxes. Why should there be equal access to Canadian services like healthcare?

    There should be a reward system like sales targets. For example: If I make over $150,000/yr as an individual and I've paid taxes for 20 yrs I should have better and more access compared to someone who makes $60,000 a year and paid for 20yrs even if I left Canada and lived overseas before coming back. The fact is I paid into the pool and I paid more than the average resident Canadian.

    Rather than worrying about allegiance to Canada and the whole resident vs non-resident issue, treat it like a bank account. You get to withdraw what you put in.
  96. hossein hajiagha from Vancouver senior Island, Canada writes: is a one of the must sucks day in my life which I never get out to celebration for? 1- canada became so expensive for living. 2-so many land? why so expensive to own the land? 3-we have oil and gas why we pay like this? 4- billions of dolor's wasted by are government on bureaucracy? and at same times we do not have good health care for those not have job in government, If I get tooth pain what should I do?I do not have government job to have medical care ? go to Africa to get help as homeless? 5- racism from white Canadian to new comers, there is no right , no respect to are education and what we know or bring as immigrant in Canada? Canada is a only country in world they do not recognize educated immigrant? or refugee? 6- going on war and supporting unclaimed? 7- let drug free in BC, numbers growing gangs, or murder and crime's? 8- Canada is jungle those are have money or government job have best life rest of the canadian straggling? 9- so many gay and lesbian? 10-hard to start family some times there is no way ? 11- every things here is all about money and money , kindly, friendly, responsibility, honestly.........we do not have in canada. 12- we do not have right technology as we speack? 13- we spending so much money on women right ? 14- so many divorced? 15- so many kids with no parent? 16- If I miss some things I am sorry because I have tooth pain in this jungle call canada? Happy suck day canada
  97. D S from Hong Kong writes: Last week I got an email from the CDN consulate office in HK which contained a statement there were 220k CDNs in HK. The population of HK is almost 7M. 10% is a big stretch and I suggest the author check his references.

    Someone else mentioned about the HK politician with the CDN passport. The thing he failed to mention is this politician renounced his CDN passport under pressure from higher authorities before taking his new role
  98. hossein hajiagha from Vancouver senior Island, Canada writes: how ever on Canada day same as any others days I need to work because if not where I can bring money for all this expensive and TAX?
    Ltt's members of are government and those are happy about this system go out and be happy.
  99. Charlie Delta from Canada writes: @Hossein

    Wow, for someone so discontent with Canada why are you still living in Canada? Please leave your passport at the border as you check out.

    These problems you mention aren't unique to Canada, I'm pretty sure USA, Australia, England to name just a few all suffer from it.

    Why so expensive with so much land? You're welcome to move to colder northern areas with less people, heard it's much cheaper when it's 40 below.

    Racism? So people in Middle East or Africa have never gone to war over race or religion? Wonder how many countries over there are fighting today? How many provinces/territories in Canada are at war today over race? I don't see tanks on the streets welcoming newcomers! Not too bad here is it?

    We do recognize educated immigrants. Just take the certification tests for your trade/profession in English/French and prove you know the same info we expect of a Canadian in that profession. English and French are our two national languages.

    Now you're picking on gays and lesbians, well, make your point known in Parliament. Canadians respect the law and the law was passed.

    Take a Tylenol for your tooth pain and then come back with something unique to Canada rather than spouting criticisms of life in general.
  100. Anna from from Canada writes: Hossein writes"13- we spending so much money on women right ? "

    Ha Ha. It really pi**es you off that you are living in place where women are recognized as equals, doesn't it? Too bad for you, as I don't know too many women ready to relinquish this status. I am guessing from your comments concerning immigrants that you are indeed an immigrant. I am happy to listen to your concerns about your treatment as they are quite legitimate, but regarding all the rest, I cannot help but wonder why you are here if you hate it so much. I mean, we don't require newcomers to relinquish their old citizenship, so out of curiosity, why are you still here?
  101. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: Charlie Delta writes "There's nothing wrong with dual citizenships and it is not exploitative. Practically everyone came from abroad, you, your parents, your grandparents etc."

    Your absolutely correct there's nothing wrong with someone who immigrates to Canada & then applies for & gets a Canadian citizenship to retain their citizenship from their originating country.

    There's nothing wrong with a Canadian who immigrates to another country & obtains citizenship there to hold both citizenships either.

    If fact everyone in these situations should retain dual citizenships, but only for a short period of time, like 5 years! After which the individual should make a choice of which country they plan to call home & forfeit the other citizenship.

    There's no good or logical reason for these people to retain dual citizenships for eternity. 5 years is a very generous amount of time to make a choice, regardless of choice the individual can still travel abroad any time they like. There's nothing preventing the individual from going back to their originating country for holidays or visits, or traveling to any other country for that matter while holding only one citizenship.

    Please provide valid reasons why a person should hold dual citizenship beyond the extent I just wrote?

    Being "global citizens" has nothing to do with dual citizenships, I can travel to most countries on the planet, that's all the term "global citizen" implies! It doesn't imply you should hold dual or multi-citizenships. It's the free flow of people throughout the world & that's achieved without dual or multi-citizenships.
  102. Anna from from Canada writes:
    Hossein,

    I just noticed point #9 in your previous post. I highly doubt that Canada has more gay people; they just don't have to hide out like some other countries for fear of persecution.

    So what you really seem pissed off about is the fact that you couldn't come here without relinquishing the social position you enjoyed in your previous country where gays and women were ranked lower in status to yourself. Am I correct?
  103. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: "Charlie Delta from Canada writes: There should be a reward system like sales targets. For example: If I make over $150,000/yr as an individual and I've paid taxes for 20 yrs I should have better and more access compared to someone who makes $60,000 a year and paid for 20yrs even if I left Canada and lived overseas before coming back. The fact is I paid into the pool and I paid more than the average resident Canadian.

    Rather than worrying about allegiance to Canada and the whole resident vs non-resident issue, treat it like a bank account. You get to withdraw what you put in."

    Your "entitled to your entitlements" right!

    Nice line of reasoning, since you earned more I'd also assume you consumed more & should pay a higher portion to offset this excess consumption!
  104. Charlie Delta from Canada writes: @Brian

    Good point, but why put a length of time on it? Like I said, treat Cdn govt benefits like a bank account you paid into and withdraw from if you're worried about abuse.

    What about people born in Britain and immigrated to Canada, fought for Canada in WWII and now retired. Should we ask those war veterans to denounce their British citizenship because we're not sure they're loyal to Canada and there's no reason to have dual?

    How about I was a born and raised Canadian but have spent the last 10years of my life working for NGO's and building hospitals and schools in 3rd world nations. Should I give up my Canadian "desire to help others" cause to ensure I don't exceed the 5yr rule? Life happens, maybe I got married and had children abroad and didn't return soon enough, but my heart was always Canadian. Should I always keep the 5yr rule in mind?
  105. Charlie Delta from Canada writes: @Brian

    "Nice line of reasoning, since you earned more I'd also assume you consumed more & should pay a higher portion to offset this excess consumption!"

    I have no problem with that. Let's kill the sacred cow we call universal health care once and for all and keep score like the Americans do.

    Millionaires like Jim Pattison who earn more, consume more, oh and create jobs for Canadians get a higher tally than Joe Canadian.

    And about the 5yr rule. Any hockey player who lives outside of Canada for 5yrs loses their citizenship too, yeah, that'll make them stay. Sorry Wayne Gretzky, you're no longer Canadian.
  106. Mark Dip from Canada writes: Charlie, you NGO example is very valid, but you don’t need to wait 5 years to get screwed. The spouses of overseas Canadian government employees have been fighting EI & CPP inequities for over 3 decades. Getting one’s EI revoked on arrival at an overseas capital has become the Canadian Foreign Service’s version of a diplomatic hazing ritual to welcome you to your posting. The way it typically goes is that spouses are forced to pay EI & CPP premiums because CRA defines them overseas as Canadian “Factual Residents” (continue to file the same domestic tax return). Then their EI social benefits get revoked and their CPP contributions go unrecorded because HRSDC says they’re not physically “Residents in Canada”. But wait, it gets better! If a spouse manages to land a menial temp embassy McJob while overseas, CRA sticks its hand out again for their cut, including for EI & CPP premiums. At the end of the contract, you even get another pretty Record of Employment, followed by a letter from HRSDC stating that the EI social benefits for which you were just paying have been revoked yet again. BTW, this also happens to non-government Canadians overseas as CRA widens its net to define more and more as “Factual Residents”. This includes paying $900 a year for OHIP that you’re not entitled to access because the Ontario Government also says that you’re a non-resident. The Ontario constitution forbids taxing overseas citizens, but everyone seems to look the other way because CRA collects the money on their behalf. I guess it’s only a source of outrage when it’s some Joe-Blow gaming the system. Apparently, Canada thinks that Canadian government and NGO families would perform better at helping to represent their country overseas after first being disenfranchised by their own government.
  107. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: Charlie Delta -

    Citizenship goes beyond just govt benefits, can you put a price on peace & security, your ability to live anywhere you choose within Canada. You can send your children to whatever school you choose, to work where & when you want.

    What does fighting in WWII have to do with anything, if you immigrate to Canada & stay then take a Canadian citizenship. If these former British citizens wish to travel back to Britain there's nothing preventing it, is there?

    I'm sure if your a government employee a soldier stationed abroad or a volunteer helping in other countries, exceptions to a 5 year rule would be very exceptable in those situations, don't you think.

    Got married abroad & have children in the other country, well the wife & children wouldn't be Canadian citizens now would they! Come back to Canada & apply to have your wife & children immigrate here. Your citizenship doesn't just disappear, you have to make a choice, if you choose to forget the 5 year rule that's not Canada's problem now is it. I think ignorance of the law, is a well established rule of law onto itself.

    Wayne Gretzky is a good example actually, he should also make a choice of which citizenship he wants. He no longer plays hockey & chooses to live in L.A. with his wife & children. He can freely visit Canada anytime he wishes along with anyone else on the planet if he chooses a U.S. citizenship over a Canadian one.

    As I stated there's no valid reason for anyone to retain dual or multi-citizenships forever, but there's plenty of non-valid reasons which could be eliminated by implementing a 5 year rule.

    As for EI if you leave the country it's revoked & for good reason, your receiving EI while you look for employment, pretty tough to do in another country don't you think!
  108. Raymond Durrani from Ajax, Canada writes: E. Briggs and Catherine write: No no to Dual Citizenship in order to eliminate confusion - resolve the problem of Citizenship of convenience. I have been a advocate of single citizenship for years - matter factly, I made many enmies after discussing this subject. People who take advanage and Canadians for generations both shy away from the subject. I spoke to many MPs and they all have reasons to stick to dual citizenship for the following reasons: a) they don't want to lose votes - many first generation immigrants who became citizens are citizens of convenience; and b) as one MP put it - my wife is dual citizen like I. I wouldn't mind giving but she wouldn't - their kids go to the other country for education - perhapes for free. How loyalty Canada gets from people with dual citizenship? Not very much I guess as it is citizenship of convenience. Trudeau really messed up the Canadian future - by introducing policy which have divided the nation and debt of almost of $160 Billion - we will be paying for it moraly and mentaly for years until someone come and find a solution. As far I am concern - I am proud to be Canadian and it is the only country I am citizen of and I eat sleep and drink Canadian. PS. I home front lawn tells the whole story of my loyalty - people stop and look at it and talk to me and give me thumbs up.
  109. Mark Dip from Canada writes: If you are forced to pay for EI while overseas, then you should be allowed to collect the benefits while overseas, provided of course that you fulfill all other EI requirements (available to work, seeking work, etc.). That's the bottom line - this is not a case of overseas Canadians claiming benefits that they didn't pay for. This happens even when you’re preparing to return home and are looking for a job in Canada from overseas (the EI Act was written before we had things like the Internet). Another wonderful CRA rule is that if you are a Canadian expat working overseas for a Canadian subsidiary, your company is compelled to tax you solely to Canada (versus to the overseas nation), including for EI and CPP. When your contract ends, the Canadian EI you paid for gets revoked (again). Meanwhile, you can't collect foreign EI because CRA blocked your ability to be taxed by the foreign government and therefore to pay into their scheme. Where's the fairness in that?
  110. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: Mark Dip -

    Keep in mind that even at home EI is not without it's inequities!

    A person owning 50 percent of a business must also pay EI but is unable to collect EI. It makes no difference whether your the 50 percent owner of a corner store or a company that employees thousands.

    This & taxation are broader issues than what the article or the subject of citizenship entails, yes their intertwined but separate just the same.
  111. no brains on this forum yes that means you.. from wetcoast, Canada writes: brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: Mark Dip -

    Keep in mind that even at home EI is not without it's inequities!

    A person owning 50 percent of a business must also pay EI but is unable to collect EI. It makes no difference whether your the 50 percent owner of a corner store or a company that employees thousands.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Brian your so wrong on everything your said, a business owner doesn't pay into EI, get your facts straight......and grab a brain..
  112. Mark Dip from Canada writes: Things like EI are very relevant to this article. When you are a Canadian expat living overseas, any dealings with your government back home, no matter how simple, can be some of the most powerful forces that help you to remember your Canadian identity and sense of belonging. If your government abandons you overseas, especially if you’re a government family serving Canada overseas, these are the things that stick out the most. It becomes far more difficult to maintain an emotional connection even with your “full-time home and native land”. Another example: If you’re a Canadian expat and you work overseas for a foreign company, in addition to paying foreign taxes, CRA still shows up for its cut when you file your Canadian income tax return. The overseas taxes may be very low because the cost of living there (think Japan or Hong Kong) is insanely high. That’s not CRA’s concern. As a “Factual Resident” you must pay the full Canadian rate, such that when CRA is done with you, your after-tax take-home income ends up being less than that of the janitor at your company. You also pay Canadian EI & CPP when you file because CRA still wants those missing T4 deductions on your return. However, EI & CPP premiums paid in this manner go unrecorded – they only can get recorded when deducted on a Canadian pay stub. Some foreign countries may not pay EI to foreigners, or won’t pay if you’re looking for work in Canada, or won’t pay if you’ve moved back to Canada. In this scenario, you’ve paid into both EI schemes, yet you still get nothing.
  113. Anna from from Canada writes: Brian Bishop,

    If a business owner pays any EI at all, it is for his employees. He does not pay any premiums on behalf of himself. It is after all, employment insurance and not employer insurance. He is, however, required to pay both the employer's share and the employee's share of CPP premiums; and this makes sense as he will be entitled to collect CPP later on.
  114. Anna from from Canada writes: Mark Dip,

    A Canadian citizen living and working abroad, is not required to pay income tax to the Canadian government provided they have demonstrated that they have sufficiently cut residency ties with Canada. This does not require giving up one's citizenship either.

    As for the EI premiums, there is no way in hell an employee is expected to pay the employer's portion of EI if they are living and working abroad and I am very skeptical that they are expected to pay the employee portion of EI either, but I will look into it.
  115. Anna from from Canada writes: Mark Dip

    Section 82 of the Employment Insurance Act governs the collection of EI premiums and since the Canadian government has no jurisdiction over companies in other countries, then they cannot force these companies to collect EI premiums on their behalf. Furthermore, while there is a spot on our Income Tax Return Forms to refund overpayments of EI insurance premiums, there is no spot on that form to charge us EI premiums.

    Thus, you are providing completely misleading and inaccurate information and it does not help the discussion.
  116. Anna from from Canada writes: Another interesting thing Mark Dip,

    If you go to the Department of Justice's Website, you will be able to find the Canada Pension Plan Act. Some employment outside of Canada will be subject to CPP, but we must keep in mind, at the very least, that you will draw out of this program when you are eligible, regardless of where you live, as it is contribution and not residency based.

    You will not be subject to this, however, if you sever ties with Canada, and I reiterate that this does not require you to go so far as relinquishing your Canadian citizenship.
  117. no brains on this forum yes that means you.. from wetcoast, Canada writes: The topic is off, when it changes to taxes.. I really didn't know that so comments are against dual citizens. If some of these people looked back into the canadian passport (say the 80's) any commonwealth passport holder was allowed to enter and seek aid from any british embassy, failling that any US embassy. Why you may ask? because Canada's passports fell under british law and britians foreign policies..that is why so many people from Hong Kong were able to recieve a canadian passport. And I'm very glad that Britian and the Queen have the right to allow all peoples from the commonwealth to move from one country to another with little to no barriers.. If your wondering YES I have mulitible passports and they're easy to get, If I was force to choose between my canadian passport and the others, I would ditch the canadian passport with no hessination.
  118. Anna from from Canada writes: Nobrains,

    The topic very much isn't off when the issue of taxes and social programs are raised. Why? Because people living and working abroad are entitled to some of our social programs while contributing very little to nothing to the pie. Though, admittedly, there are undoubtedly exceptions.

    No brains, the fact that you would ditch the Canadian passport with little hesitation is a good reason why shouldn't be entitled to one. This country definitely does not need Canadians of convenience.
  119. Mark Dip from Canada writes: Anna, if you are a government family serving overseas, the normal CRA formula for residency determination is overruled. The Vienna Convention on diplomatic immunity is the sole deciding factor used by CRA to make you a “Factual Resident”. Section 82 is irrelevant for Canadians overseas who are working for Canadian companies (especially our government), and are being paid in back in Canada, to a Canadian bank account. We have no choice but to accept that arrangement – we are not allowed to cut our residential ties. In the case of working for a foreign employer, the field on the tax form to pay EI premiums is where you enter your T4 deductions. If it is empty (because you won’t get a T4 from a foreign company), you have no deduction and get a smaller refund equaling what you owed for EI. I’ll repeat a previous post: as a CRA “Factual Resident”, you continue to fill out the same domestic tax return from overseas as you would if you had stayed in Canada. Government spouses get caught in this net whether they work for a Canadian or foreign employer overseas. As well, just because something is in print in the Tax Act, doesn’t mean CRA will obey it. Try living overseas for a few years, and going though all of this like I did. You’re not the first “instant overseas tax expert” I’ve had to respond to.
  120. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "Alex MacLean from Toronto, Canada writes: I dislike the idea that we are about nothing at all, just this blank canvas you can come here to and make it whatever you like." Yes, Canada's "we are the future of the world" is an interesting phenomenon, isn't it? To my knowledge Canadians have never requested or demanded, or furthermore been asked by our leaders if we want this designation. Isn't it ironic that Canadians are so encouraged to disregard their history and focus on a future of multicultural globalism? How many countries have govt's that encourage their citizens to ignore their history? As I mentioned, in high school Canadian History is not mandatory in 7 out of 10 provinces. And Mr. Valpy's article is so indicate of this trend, which I can only describe as govt propaganda- celebrating our identity by reference to Canadians who live outside of the country. If thats the best we can do in terms of a patriotic feeling we are in serious trouble. But to get back to Alex's comment, whitewash is the perfect term to describe the dynamics of modern Canada- whitewash our history, whitewash our founding nations, whitewash our language and turn Canada into an ill-defined, rootless nation who prides itself in globalist ideology. Remember what Marcus Garvey said: "A people without history is like a tree without roots" - Garvey was a black nationalist commenting on ties to Africa, but the saying itself is universal.
  121. Mark Dip from Canada writes: Although EI and CPP may never be fully equitable, the laws of market supply and demand are creating an equilibrium as we speak. In this case, DFAIT’s best and brightest are now refusing overseas postings, and more are quitting each year than can be replaced, especially those at mid-career. Financial hardship and the related spousal taxation/employment issues being the highest reasons for leaving. That’s one big reason why you see so many stories in the news about Canadians in distress overseas being abandoned. While “Willie the Mailboy” might be the only one left in the Canadian Foreign Service willing to run an embassy overseas and “stand on guard for thee”, the rest of us are staying in Canada, working, and paying our taxes like good little Canucks. As such, Canadians overseas should then prepare themselves for more of their overseas services to be delivered from Canada (“In case of arrest and torture, press 4”). While the DFAIT Emergency Hotline has you in some hell-hole, on hold listening to “Girl from Ipanema”, you can at least rest assured that you’re getting what you paid for in overseas services. Now that sounds fair!
  122. Anna from from Canada writes: Mark your post above says; "if you are a Canadian expatriate living overseas and working for a foreign company" before you go into your spiel about EI and CPP premiums.
  123. no brains on this forum yes that means you.. from wetcoast, Canada writes: Anna yes the tax issue if off base with this story/issue. Just because someone is a dual citizan doesn't mean that they're feel loaders like your suggesting. people don't collect from social programs from canada if they live and work in some other country period.

    regarding reasons for ditching my Canadian passport, I have my reasons.. As that passport (alone) has gotten me into more trouble abroard and the canadian embassy rep's where not to be found. I'm very thankful the British embassitor gave me a britsh passport in the 80's to avoid the issue as to that in some jurictions a Canadian passport is not reconised as a country and there fore anyone who carried one was arrested.. Since those years I have 4 different passports and enjoy more freedom then any one passport holder could have..
  124. Anna from from Canada writes: Mark Dip,

    Yeah, it kind of makes sense that you cannot work for the Canadian government overseas and simultaneously claim that you and your spouse have severed ties with Canada. Your post about the lesser tax refund makes little to no sense and unless it is articulated better, quite frankly I have no idea what it means.

    Your bitterness, however, is quite apparent. Perhaps I would be too in your situation, but I don't know. You need to articulate your concerns better for me to judge.
  125. no brains on this forum yes that means you.. from wetcoast, Canada writes: Mark Dip,
    the best you can do is go into a employment agreement with your employer, and have your pay, paid into an Austrin bank as "under law" austria doesn't reconize tax evasion and a crime. I luv that let see the dead heads (CRA) in canada demand to get paid for something that they're not entiled to recieve.
  126. Anna from from Canada writes: NO Brains,

    Perhaps you are not a freeloader, but I know many who are. And yes, they do work abroad and come to Canada for things like taxpayer subsidized postsecondary education and even health care. I know they are not entitled while residing elswhere, but yes they do manage it. I hold citizesnship and a passport from another country and I am not a freeloader either, but that doesn't mean that everyone is this way. And I kind of think that I shouldn't be entitled to citizenship in a country where I have never lived or contributed, but why would I put myself at a comparative disadvantage if I don't have to?

    I find it interesting that you mention in some jurisdictions Canada is not recognized as a country. I mean we are clearly recognized as a country in the U.N. Please tell us where those places are, as I am sure it will be educational for many people on this forum and not just me. I personally always travel on my Canadian passport unless I am entering the country with which I have dual citizenship. I have never had any problems.
  127. Anna from from Canada writes: No brains,

    Cause the Candian government is really going to agree to that, right?
  128. brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: no brains -

    Rules change, in the 70's & early 80's my father had his own business & had to pay into EI with no chance of ever collecting.

    I'm a 50 percent owner of a business & cannot collect EI, however I also hold a full time job working for someone else where I do pay into EI, but because of my 50 percent interest in the other business I cannot collect EI! I don't concern myself with book keeping so I was unaware the I wasn't paying into EI through my business.
  129. Anna from from Canada writes: Mark,

    On our tax form, we don't get a deduction for EI premiums unless we have overpaid. We do get a tax credit, which helps only those with income tax payable and not those who are not required to pay any taxes on their income. But I do understand more about what you are saying. The amount you get in a refund, however, isn't equal to what you would have owed in EI, but much much much less. For example, If I paid 3000 in EI premiums I had income tax payable, I would get a tax credit of $3000 something close to 17 percent federally plus $3000 something like 8 percent provincially. The reason we get this tax credit is because we pay into the plan, and it is very small in proportion to the premiums we pay. People who don't pay into the plan, don't get this credit and people who don't make enough money don't get the full value of this "non-refundable" tax credit. So if I understand correctly, you and your wife do not pay EI insurance premiums. Am I misunderstanding your post?
  130. no brains on this forum yes that means you.. from wetcoast, Canada writes: Anna,
    to answer your question, In the 80's I was arrested in Russia, East Germany and in Iran for carrying a canadian passport. I only recieved help from the brit's as Canada didn't bother to send thier diplomats out to resolve the issue of reconizing a canadian passport as a legal document. So if you travel watch your back in some juridictions.

    Regarding the Austian law it's not up to the Canadian Government. As Canada can't force the Austrians to bend the rules..
  131. Anna from from Canada writes: No Brains,

    That is interesting. I have only been to Russia out of those three countries and that was Post-Soviet Era. Oh and I have been to the reunified Germany. Russia is still kind of creepy as the hotels require you to hand over your passport when you register.

    I can now see why you would prefer to travel on a British passport, given your experiences. I would too.
  132. Mark Dip from Canada writes: Anna, let me walk you through it. For the tax refund thing, try simulating it on tax software like Quicktax. After you have entered all your income sources, you next start entering all your deductions. As each deduction is entered, your tax owing amount on Line 485 at the end decreases with each entry, hopefully eventually putting you into a refund position (Line 484 instead becomes populated). As such, when you enter your EI Contributions from Box 18 of your T4, your tax owing amount on Line 485 decreases, or your refund amount on Line 484 increases. If you have no T4 due to working for a foreign employer, you have no T4 Canadian EI contributions to enter. As such, without the deduction, Lines 484/485 do not change in your favour. This larger tax owing (or lower tax refund) is how you end up paying for EI while overseas as a Factual Resident. We live overseas, but are forced by CRA’s rules to file for foreign income on a domestic tax form that is meant for a Canadian living and working in Canada (but perhaps collecting foreign income on the side). This situation would be eliminated/decreased if CRA would declare spouses as Non-Residents, where we would get all of our EI premiums refunded, not just the overpayment. The domestic tax form does not allow this. However the Canadian government does not consider its government spouses to be individuals. We are simply extensions of our government employee partners, so we automatically end up with their residency determination. When I left Canada for the posting, I had already maxed out my Canadian EI contributions and got neither a refund nor the benefits. When I worked on the embassy McJob overseas, I again maxed out Canadian EI, and again got neither. When working for a foreign company, spouses pay Canadian EI at tax time and get nothing.
  133. no brains on this forum yes that means you.. from wetcoast, Canada writes: Anna,
    The bristish passport is my trump card. I prefer to use my Swiss Passport to travel as the swiss have the most freeist of all passports.

    Alot of stuff had changed after the soviet block fell. Going to Russia or any of the former soviet block is now a days easy and very safe for me.
    The only issue that comes up at border checks is that the guard may demand a payment (bribe), I've had that in Italy just last year. Or they don't give back your passport and will not let you leave the country. My advise..Just pay it and move on as the last thing you would want is to be shot when your high tailing it cross the border..or charged as a spy..Oh the glory days to be young and foolish again.
  134. Comments are Closed from Toronto, Canada writes: Multiculturalism has resulted in Canadians (or the more politically chic hyphenated-Canadians) having two things in common: the dollar and the passport. Nothing else really matters anymore.
  135. Anna from from Canada writes: No brains,

    Yeah it must have been pretty risky travelling in Iran after the whole hostage situation and the Canadian embassy's involvement in helping American hostages. Despite all the adventures and misadventures, I am sure it was quite the educational experience. You have lived to tell about it, after all.
  136. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: charlie delta, your question is an interesting one. i guess the answer would be, if they aren't holding the gun at the enemy's head, they'll be holding it to yours. i'll give you a scenario. china invades taiwan and it ends with the west at war in asia with the chinese. who do you think the chinese in canada will be fighting for? not all, but maybe a good few will support china. do you round them up like WWII? whoops can't do that because it will infringe on their human rights. so now you have an enemy within….. *********************************************************** Another scenario - General fergus of Canadian macduff unit cried: British are coming… French are coming…, oh no, Russians too, Oh no, no, Americans too, the big mighty America. They want our oil. Oh no, no, no… Indians and Chinese too. They all have nucleus weapons. Let’s cage in, quickly. Let’s cage in. But we can’t, we have all these internal enemies! What are we going to do? Oh, yes, purify Canada… only natives can stay as they have no affiliation. Good idea! Wait a minute, how about North American Indians, are they natives or are they Americans? Who knows? Let’s get rid of everyone. *********************************************************** Fergus: I hope the British country side will heal you with peace and harmony. We will forgive you for your absence from Canada when you return for our social benefits.
  137. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: l chang. you're a bigger idiot than the kurdish taxi driver i had to listen to. people like you are part of the problem, not the solution. stick to the topic, stick to the debate. the point is this: i WON'T come back to canada for the benefits because i made a choice to leave. and because i did, i don't EXPECT anything from the government or the people. i am not a PART-TIME canadian. but as valoy's article said - and that is what is beign debated - is that a millions of so called canadians are.
    the example i gave and you quote is that, an example. but make your own and the result will be the same. what side will you be on? just as a matter of interest, of all the canadian soldiers servign and especailly dying in afghanistan, how many are asian? seems to me most of them have surnames that can be traced to one of the founding or early immigrant source nations. just a thought worth considering.
  138. Geoff Lloyd from Vancouver, Canada writes: Dual citizenship is a vestige of our colonial past which truly needs to be eliminated. We ditched the colonial flag, repatriated our constitution, it's time to eliminate the passport of convenience. Historically, many well connected immigrants from the UK didn't want to relinquish their imperial citizenship and so dual citizenship was recognized. As this privilege couldn't be restricted to just one class of immigrant, what was customary for one group had to be extended to all. Are we really that desperate? This is the country that wound up with the 5th largest merchant marine at the end of WW2, built universities, hospitals, schools, roads from end to end on a population of 10-15 mil.
  139. no brains on this forum yes that means you.. from wetcoast, Canada writes: Geoff Lloyd,
    Dual citizenship is a vestige of our colonial past which truly needs to be eliminated. We ditched the colonial flag, repatriated our constitution, it's time to eliminate the passport of convenience.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What are talking about If you looked back to the mid 80's if you were born in Canada you were a british "subject" and you were/are under the rule of Britain.. and one more thing about your statement "which is so wrong" Canada doesn't have a constitution Canada has the "rights and freedom" act, plus the Queen (IE: Britain) has full powers over Canada in every regard even the highs court in this land is trumped by the prive cousel and the monach. I think that your just jealous that you can't be a dual citizen, so you woud rather whine about it and try to make sure that others don't get it either.. Just grow up....
  140. Jacob J from Toronto, Canada writes: E. Biggs: "I then wonder what their positions an status would be if Canada were to encounter tough times or were attacked by some agressor?
    Would they still identify with Canada and stand by her or would they flee to their home lands like they did in coming here?"

    -------------------------------
    The only aggressor I could see ever attacking Canada without cause is the one that resides just south of her. And that aggressor is the very reason these people had to flee their homelands to come to Canada in the first place, so we're all damned if we do and all damned if we don't as long as the stars and stripes exercises its bloody hegemony around the world.
  141. Bruce Sorensen from Korea, Rep. of writes: I have read a number of the comments so far - though not all - and have found that - generally speaking - they are divided into two camps; those who have a firm idea of nationality (not necessarily implying nationalism - but likely strong supporters of identifying themselves with a particular nation in good times and bad), and those who have a looser view of themselves and the world - mostly due to cultural "duality" from family history or more long-term exposure to other cultures. The thrust of the conversation seems to be that each of these points of view has merits - either economic or social, or both ( as well as much more of course). Conversely, therefore, it can be said that each has its drawbacks as well. A reasonable statement. In addition, these same contributors who speak of dual citizenship are also divided in to the same two camps. Some claim that this creates bridges between cultures and nations (as well as maintaining family relationships) and broadens perspectives, and therefore creates a better understanding of both local and global concerns, while others say that it creates a duality of allegiance, which, in the present or at some time in the future, could cause difficulties for the nations, and people/families involved (at least that is what I would suggest some of you are saying - apologies if this is incorrect). Would this summation, in your view(s) be accurate? If so, would you consider that each of these opposing (partly, but not entirely, from my view point of view) opinions has some merit? I would add more, but I have no time left to do so. Look forward to hearing from you. Hope to add more later.
  142. rock rock from toronto, Canada writes: Canada is not a part time home but an hotel to stay for a while to immigrate to first world countries for people coming from third world countries
  143. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: Fergus macduff: the feeling is mutual. If you don’t like what I said, then don’t say it to others. At least I did not call you the bigger idiot than........ Your question on what side will be on? I have answered in my previous email that I believe Asian Canadians will fight for Canada for the right war. If you are still not clear, the definition of ‘right’ is when Canada is being attacked regardless of country. I will not fight a war like Iraq nor will I support or be involved in a war with China for Tibet independence or between Taiwan and China. Why Canada should be the one who judge the world? Canada should be involved in peace negotiation and not blindly follow others into war that has nothing to do with Canada. If you are genuinely interested on the answer and you are not malicious, then your question of ‘what side will be on’ should be asked of all Canadians not just Asian Canadians as war/event between countries are unpredictable. You seem to think that only Asian Canadians have these affiliation and loyalty issues, right? And if you have already formed your opinion, why bother to ask? On the subject of Canadian soldiers, I have every respect on people fighting for our country and my deepest sympathy on the injury and death of our soldiers. No one can comprehend the sadness and despair of the parents who lost their children in the war. I support better pay for soldiers and better care for soldiers who are hurt. So what is your point? You seem to imply that Asian Canadians are not patriotic, as if Asian Canadians refused to participate to protect Canada. Army and Police are the least preferred career options for Asian Canadians and if they do get into the army, most of them are doing inside technical work and not at ground, just like the son of my closest friend that works in the Army IT department. Heck, why I am spending all this time explaining to you since you want nothing to do with Canada. This is the last time I would respond to you.
  144. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: Sorry, not my previous email but my previous posting.
  145. hossein hajiagha from Vancouver senior Island, Canada writes: an Iranian women immigrant in USA she now in NASA and she get to space?
    an Iranian women immigrant in canada she get job as dishwasher with NBA or PhD?
    go get job man do not be selfish.
    you thinks we are blind?
    can't you see %99.5 all government job is yours not us? can't you see any where we are applying for job, or help, or land, or grant are rejected ?
    can't see how many immigrant moving each years from canada to USA?
    I was be there , is best country in world to grow....they was helping me to get to school I pay only $100 same school cost me in canada over $5000
    They helping me for free bus pass, ...and my TAX hold by government because I did not pay enough to them for my immigration?
    I need to have some saving to get and fix my tooth which is painfully now?
    get life man suck to your flag and do not ask for immigrant .to cost problems for us , we lose are job in are homeland we lose money bring money here , family ended to divorced child are going to die related in gangs, go get job and fix all this problems , selfish man , also this is not your country belong to native you should go back to England with your Queen and TAX.
  146. r b from Calgary, Canada writes: Of course divided loyalties do not present a problem, that is until those loyalties clash and a choice must be made. And inevitably, they will clash. When a politician running for the highest elected office in the land cannot even grasp the terrible optics of having dual citizenship, and neither can his supporters, then clearly we have passed a tipping point. Look at pictures of the Canadian heroes who have died in Afghanistan: Ask yourself if they are representative of the multi-ethnic mosaic that we aspire so highly to. The concept of national service is not even a distant thought to our new citizens of convenience. More examples? Few Canadians are aware that programmes such as family re-unification make it possible for the elderly and infirm relatives of immigrants to be brought over to Canada and partake fully of Canada's overstressed medical system - without ever paying a dime in Canadian taxes. AND, they also qualify for non-medicare services such as completely free dental care which is DENIED to Canadian born seniors who are not quite poor enough to be destitute. And we have one federal party after the other pandering to the immigrant vote: the federal Tories bribe was to pay ALL fees associated with immigration. How sweet. Let us place absolutely no value on Canadian citizenship. To paraphrase Obama's spiritual leader " the multiculturalism chickens are coming home , to roost!"
  147. Veritas Canada from Canada writes: This is surely the worst article I have ever read!
  148. Charles B. Thornhill from Ho Chi Minh City via North Bay Ontario, Vietnam writes: As one of those Canadian living abroad I must say that this article was interesting, but unfortunately not all of us working overseas want to be here. I am a Canaidian and a Vetern who was downsized out of my job, not once but several times in Canada. Canada was facing IMF problems and had to reduce it's job force, especially the Federal government. I was forced into low paying part-time work and I had a family to support, so the next alternative was to look for work elsewhere, I did and I have been in Asia for 10 years now. BUT I want to be there not here, I am a true Canadian in every aspect. However, since I have been Asia I have been doing my best to promote Canada through many ventures, Canada to me is still my favourite country and I have worked in or visited 29 of them now. Living the life as an expat does have it's reward but there is a family cost to it...be prepared before you jump into the illussion that it is good. We are not always accepted where we go, espeically if you are white, they think and treat you like an American, and they are not appreciated in this world. I would be more than happy to discuss this with anyone thinking about coming overseas, or even in investing in overseas ventures. Just contact the mayor of North Bay, he'll tell you how to find me.
  149. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: To hossein hajiagha from Vancouver senior Island: I understand your despair as I have seen similar cases. I don’t know where you are located. To fix your immediate tooth ache problem, you may want to inquire the following:

    If you are in Vancouver: Call 1-800-663-7867
    http://www.gov.bc.ca/meia/onlineresource/healthsupplementsandprograms/dental/

    If you are in Toronto: call 416-392-5300
    http://www.toronto.ca/socialservices/Policy/hardship_fund.htm - under hardship policy on emergency dental care

    U Of T also run a student clinic with reduced charge. You may want to inquire:
    416-979-4927 for emergency appointments and costs.
    http://www.utoronto.ca/dentistry/patientclinic/patientclinicfaq.htmlcost

    Hope this help. Good luck with your teeth and your future undertaking.
  150. mike kwan from Toronto, Canada writes: Dual citizenship provides a greater degree of mobility and convenience. To ask someone to sacrifice this simply to fulfill your desire of achieving some sort of mythological nationalism is the height of insanity. There is a reason why every intelligent politician in this country- whether they be right-wing or left-wing- is supportive of decreasing international barriers to mobility and trade, not increasing them. Andrew Coyle, national editor of Macleans, wrote an essay arguing for exactly this a few years ago:
    http://andrewcoyne.com/essays/Magazines/NextCity/Immigrants%20Are%20Us.rtfd/TXT.html
  151. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: l chang. it seems you are unable to understand the word example. please find the point at which i highlighted that only asians would be unpatriotic. as i said, find your own example. what about serbs who went back to serbia to fight in the 90's? there are several example to choose from. tamil terrorists in ontario? sikh terrorists in vancouver? seems to me these kind of people were not amongst the general populice prior to the 1960's and trudeau's little multicult experiment. unfortunately, one doesn't always get to pick which war they fight in. and while i am sure the cdn. troops are ever so greatful for your support, in the end you've made my point for me. no asian names on the death role in afghanistan. and while gettign to die for one's county is certainly not the only way to show commitment to and patriotism for one's country, it is certainly telling in canada's case. please explain what the 'right' war might be? because once again you highlight the problem. the way canada is now, some group will always find a way to say it is not the right war. how about this? china invades the west coast of canada and tries to take alberta for its oil? which side are you on then? i can pretty much figure it out.
  152. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: l chang. it also quite telling that you know the gov't help line numbers and websites to get free medical care. for all the years i lived in canada i didn't even know the gov't had a programme to help you get your teeth fixed. one great thing about these globe blogs, one can find out about all the freebies that are available. thanks for the information; next time i am over for a holiday i will get my teeth fixed up.
  153. Werner George Patels from Calgary, Canada writes: It is extremely rare that a major newspaper publishes an entire article that consists of not a single fact. But this is exactly what has happened with Michael Valpy’s Canada Day piece for the Globe and Mail. " Canadians comprise 10 per cent of the population of Hong Kong. Hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, more live as immigrant transnationals: maintaining a cultural and even physical presence in both Canada and the countries that they, or their families, may have left years earlier." Those would be, for the most part, “Canadians of convenience” (e.g., Lebanese with Canadian passports) who simply (ab)use Canada for its free health care and other benefits (and, living overseas, they don’t even pay tax here). In other words, they only take, take, take from Canada but never give even a penny. "Forty per cent of Canadians say they donate money to international charities." Like various terror organizations (e.g., Tamil Tigers). How noble, indeed. "Canada has aggressively recruited immigrants with skills, money, entrepreneurial talents — and, by definition, options." Valpy says so, ergo it must be so. Well, not quite: only 23% of the immigrants “aggressively recruited” actually end up being net tax contributors and thus a benefit to Canada. The remaining 77% cost Canadian taxpayers $18 billion a year (!). Valpy earned a nice, fat bundle with this silly and lazy article of his. Too bad he failed to check the facts and do his homework – for the rate per word he was paid, surely the newspaper could have expected an actual article, rather than a fairy-tale story.
  154. Charlie Delta from Canada writes: @Fergus

    "just as a matter of interest, of all the canadian soldiers servign and especailly dying in afghanistan, how many are asian? seems to me most of them have surnames that can be traced to one of the founding or early immigrant source nations. just a thought worth considering."

    Wasn't it shown in a Michael Moore movie that the military doesn't recruit the best and brightest? This is not WWI or WWI, you generally join the army because you have no options. Didn't filmmaker Moore illustrate no US Senators had children serving in Iraq? I'm sure US Senators are patriotic but they still don't want their children in harm's way. Canada is no different.

    Let's hope Afghanistan doesn't turn out like another Vietnam war.

    Speaking of your founding early immigrant source nations, those are the surnames that should be paying whenever First Nations land claims come up. Be proud, stand up and tell your grandpa's stories of how they killed off Canadian First Nations people while moose hunting and beaver trapping.

    And stand proud again with your bank account open and ready to pay those compensation claims rather than hiding in corner when the rest of us later immigrants get taxed for acts we did not commit and were not related to.
  155. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: charlie delta

    i am sure that all canadian military personal and their families appreciate your comments. i know they must be very please to serve and protect people like you who hold them in such high esteem. as for the native issue, i am not too sure how it relates to the issue of being a part - time canadian. do a lot of natives hold more than one citizenship? are their loyalties doubted? seems to me that they have served canada with honour when called upon to do so, despite the real and perceived wrongs that have been levelled against them. and i would argue that of all the countries in the world who have native populations that were affected by european colonisation, canada's natives are fairing a lot better than most. have you been to south america? the ones that weren't killed outright don't have mush or a support system that i could see.

    again, a completely different topic, but i will gladly debate it with you when appropriate,
  156. Dan Green from Palm Beach Gardens FL, United States writes: To all my Canuck friends, happy Canada Day. We have two neighbors, one to our south, one to our north. Our neighbor to the North, is generally thought of, as country of very polite citizens. Your military, and your hockey players, are examples, of your fine identity. Put a hockey stick in your immigrants, childrens cribs, and maybe one day, we will see some of them on the ice. God save the Queen !
  157. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: l chang. it also quite telling that you know the gov't help line numbers and websites to get free medical care. for all the years i lived in canada i didn't even know the gov't had a programme to help you get your teeth fixed. one great thing about these globe blogs, one can find out about all the freebies that are available. thanks for the information; next time i am over for a holiday i will get my teeth fixed up. *************************************** fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: l chang. it also quite telling that you know the gov't help line numbers and websites to get free medical care. for all the years i lived in canada i didn't even know the gov't had a programme to help you get your teeth fixed. one great thing about these globe blogs, one can find out about all the freebies that are available. thanks for the information; next time i am over for a holiday i will get my teeth fixed up******************************************************** Fergus, cheap shot! You win as I cannot resist of not responding to you. There are many things you don’t know. Just learn how to google and you will have the info on hand. You will feel better if you spend time to help and to learn the experiences of the less fortunate. Time, adapt and work hard in Canada for the past decades have performed miracle for me so I could retire at 50 and never have the need for government help. Instead of coming here for holiday, try some volunteer work either in UK or Canada. Your resentment may evaporate.
  158. L Chang from Ontario, Canada writes: fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: l chang….. china invades the west coast of canada and tries to take alberta for its oil? which side are you on then? i can pretty much figure it out ***********************************************************
    (sign) As I have said, if you have figured it out, why bother ask? Didn&8217;t I say before the &8216;right&8217; reason is when Canada is being attacked by any country? Isn&8217;t it obvious that if China invades the west coast of Canada for oil, I will be on the side of Canada?
  159. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: l chang, my comment is not a cheap shot. but it is an expensive shot for the cdn. taxpayer. you are probably a nice person, but you appear to be a bit naive about the way of the world and what appears to motivate people these days. by the way, i have seen how the less fortunate live. i spent many years living and working in developing - often undeveloping - parts of the world in africa and asia. so don't worry, i count my blessings everyday. but again, you are way off the topic. it is about divided loyalties and you cannot answer the hard questions when asked. the fact is this, one day your country may ask which side are you on. it might be a war, it might be a terror plot, it might be any number of things. and if you have divided loyalties that may conflict with the self interests of the country you live in, then the citizenry of that country have every right to question whether you should be allowed to live there at all. i asked about a chinese invasion of canada. where would your loyalties lie? simple question. simple answer?
  160. mike kwan from Toronto, Canada writes: Werner George Patels, get your facts straight. Your claim that only 23% of immigrants are net contributors to Canada is outright false. That number is for new immigrants. The fact is, that all immigrants except for the brand spanking new ones, contribute more to government coffers than do native born Canadians. And this is simply directly through paying taxes, not any of the spin-off effects that immigration might bring. And as they stay here longer, the income advantage they have over native born Canadians of the same birth cohort widens. It is estimated that the average immigrant family transfers $1,813 to native born Canadians.
    Source:
    http://andrewcoyne.com/essays/Magazines/NextCity/Immigrants%20Are%20Us.rtfd/TXT.html
  161. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "mike kwan from Toronto, Canada writes:

    "The fact is, that all immigrants except for the brand spanking new ones, contribute more to government coffers than do native born Canadians."

    This comment, despite the link you included, is laughable.

    "And this is simply directly through paying taxes, not any of the spin-off effects that immigration might bring"

    And what "spin-off" effects would those be-transforming our urban centres into ethnic asian enclaves?
  162. mike kwan from Toronto, Canada writes: "Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes:"

    My comment is supported by census data. Cold hard facts. Your comment is supported only by the ramblings of your fellow ignorant xenophobes, who choose to think with their gut and speak from out of their bums. You can choose to ignore it, but it only serves to demonstrate how out of touch with reality most xenophobes are.

    And if you honestly don't see how reducing mobility barriers for workers can result in economic benefits, I recommend you educate yourself with a beginners economic course. I believe most high schools in Ontario offer these. Otherwise, you have no business discussing this issue.
  163. r b from Calgary, Canada writes: Another fine example of Canadian immigration lunacy became evident during the SARS crisis. Ever wonder why Canada, and Toronto and Vancover in particular, became THE international hotspots for that near miss pandemic? Why America for example, with over 10 times the flights between China and themselves compared to Canada, managed to contain outbreaks to a very few isolated cases? Why, political correctness of course. There was of course the infamous case of the elderly Asian couple, who, in the very midst of the unfolding SARS epidemic, and who were obviously ill prior to boarding a Canada bound flight to Vancouver, but were merrily waved along anyways. Officials were worried that to single them out would be seen as "racist". Of course Canadian officials knew that visitors and immigrants from Asia were the disease vector, but placating the immigrant community trumped our safety. And the prize of prizes goes to the fraudulent Sikh immigrant in BC, ordered deported years ago, but through delaying tactics has managed to elude that fate. In the meantime, he suffered a stroke, and was cared for at Canadian taxpayers expense (yes, that was the proper thing to do, in the SHORT term). But when the day finally arrived where all appeals for deportation were exhausted, his well deserved one way ticket back to his country of origin was stopped by an angry mob of his fellow Sikhs, threatening immigration officials with violence. A last minute compromise was reached, the Sikh community would care for the fellow, at their own expense, while the immigration officials awaited new orders. But, as soon as the cameras disappeared, so did the "caring Sikh community", and Canadian taxpayers are once again paying for this gentleman's care and lodging. Meanwhile, some of those same immigration officials bravely questioned why Canadian law should be trumped by mob violence. They are still awaiting an answer.
  164. no brains on this forum yes that means you.. from wetcoast, Canada writes: mike kwan,

    And if you honestly don't see how reducing mobility barriers for workers can result in economic benefits, I recommend you educate yourself with a beginners economic course. I believe most high schools in Ontario offer these. Otherwise, you have no business discussing this issue.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I couldn't have said it better, These anti dual citizen people should cork it...They have no idea at all.....
  165. Werner George Patels from Calgary, Canada writes: Mike Kwan, sorry, but the numbers (23%-77%) are 100% correct and accurate. Plus, one only needs to look at Toronto to know that saying that 77% of immigrants are laggards is probably an understatement. Your numbers are false, and based on your last name, I have to assume that you biased in favour of immigration and therefore not reliable as a source.
  166. mike kwan from Toronto, Canada writes: Werner George, please learn to read. I never said those numbers were wrong, just that they were only applicable to recent immigrants. Moreover, they lend the impression that immigrants are somehow a greater burden on society than native born Canadians. If you had any understanding of how taxation works, you would know that the vast majority Canadians, regardless of their country of origin, are not net tax contributors. In fact, the number of net tax contributors for native born Canadians is lower than that of immigrants. When we compare immigrants as a group to native born Canadians, immigrants come up ahead in terms of average income, education, participation rate, and taxes paid. This is all well known to anyone that has any knowledge of immigration in North America, but since reading and education are not the strong points of most xenophobes it is no surprise that they remain unaware of this while continuing to propagate their racist myths.
  167. mike kwan from Toronto, Canada writes: As for the my validity as a source, I once again remind you to read. I am not the source of these facts, Statistics Canada is the source. I even provided a link to an essay by Andrew Coyne which lists all the sources you would need to look up to check the validity of my claims. Its interesting that you conveniently chose to ignore this, instead choosing to discount what I had to say simply of the basis of my name.
    Some other facts:
    -Immigrants are 23 per cent less likely to draw unemployment insurance than native-born Canadian
    -Immigrants are less likely to be on welfare
    -Within a decade of arriving, the average immigrant has surpassed the average Canadian in earnings (of the same birth cohort) and the gap then continues to grow.
    -The the average immigrant household pay more than twice as much in taxes as it consumes in services, and the gap between the two is wider than it is for native-born households.
    Please feel free to type up an actual rebuttal to any of this, without using dismissing it simply because of my name.
  168. Matt M from Toronto, United Kingdom writes: This article so eloquently and beautifully summed up my view of my home and native land. I was however, for the most part left me deeply disappointed my so many of the commenters on this page, and also puzzled since I rarely meet anyone back in Canada who espouses such narrow-minded rhetoric. This article sums up how Canada is rapidly becoming a post-Nationalist society. For this one article, how many articles will appear in our news media wringing their hands in worry about the death of the Canadian national identity, a common enough sentiment I suppose in a country that more than any other is defined by immigration, but Canada has rumbled along nicely during 141 years of immigration, and I'm pretty sure we'll continue to do so.

    Returning to what I saw as the central thesis of this article: that nationalism in Canada is dying, I would pose a question. Why is this a problem? Surely if Nationalism is defined in a traditional sense: love your country (and hate all the others), then I think that Canada as a nation is tending the right way. Rampant nationalism has produced too many of the conflicts that have plagued the world. Having spent the past three years for my education abroad, I have never loved my country more than the time I have been gone. Many of my friends from university also left the country for school, or for work, and I don't think that any of them consider themselves as anything other than Canadian.

    Lastly, I find that these descriptions of cultural differences often represent a thinly veiled racism. In any given article about immigration, replace the words 'different culture' was replaced with race, the article would be the same, but its true meaning would be revealed. Exhorting cultural differences between immigrant canadian citizens and native-born citizens is nothing more than racism. I share far more with immigrant canadians than with the narrow-minded canadians who are my native born brethren.
  169. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    mike kwan from Toronto, Canada writes: "Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes:"

    "My comment is supported by census data. Cold hard facts. Your comment is supported only by the ramblings of your fellow ignorant xenophobes"

    yes Mike, any Canadian who has the audacity to speak out against ethno-centric immigrant beha is a xenophobe. We have all heard that one before Mike, it's rationalization #1 in the multicult handbook.

    Here's a quote for you:

    -When asked what he thought of how multicultural policy had evolved since he launched it more than two decades earlier,

    [Pierre Eliot Trudeau] responded to the effect that it had been twisted to celebrate a newcomer’s country of origin rather than a celebration of the newcomer becoming part of the Canadian fabric (Cobb,2005).

    In case you weren't aware, Trudeau by most reasonable accounts is the FATHER of Canadian multiculturalism.
  170. Matt M from Toronto, United Kingdom writes: Re: Mike Kwan

    You are absolutely right. Moreover, since Canada is particularly selective about who is allowed in, Canada often gains fully trained individuals in the prime of their youth. This means, that Canada has not had to pay to keep them healthy and has not had to pay to educate them. They arrive in Canada pre-educated and often highly motivated. Purely from an economic perspective, Canada is getting a fantastic deal. We are just lucky people want to keep coming!
  171. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: Mike Kwan:

    Here is another quote for you:

    "There has in fact been extensive documentation available for almost two decades showing that there are neither significant economic or demographic benefits to Canadians from immigration.

    This was spelled out in the early 1990s in the comprehensive study
    undertaken by the Economic Council of Canada (Economic Council of Canada, 1991) A. Green, Professor Emeritus at Queen’s University (Green, 2003)."
  172. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: Matt M from Toronto, United Kingdom writes: Re: Mike Kwan

    "You are absolutely right. Moreover, since Canada is particularly selective about who is allowed in"

    Matt, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Canada's per capita Refugee Policy is the highest in the world. The Canadian Governments definition of who is a refugee is the broadest in the western world.

    The immigration plan which delivers the highest percentage of newcomers into Canada is the Family Plan, which does not adhere to a points sytem like the other major plans.

    The definition of "family" under this plan is again the broadest in the world, to include grandparents, cousins and probably the family dog.
  173. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "Returning to what I saw as the central thesis of this article: that nationalism in Canada is dying, I would pose a question. Why is this a problem?'

    You're right, Matt, its not a problem. If you work for the Canadian Gov, work in the academic field, if you work for a majoe corporation or you are a a recent immigrant, its not a problem.

    It's only a problem for everyone else.
  174. Older'n Dirt from Belleville, Canada writes: Canada used to be a place of respect for all with a welcome mat for those embracing our social values. It was the predominently white Canada that opened it's doors to non white immigration, whether for humanitarian or ecomonical resons. The basic requirement was that people left their baggage at the door, and made their place as most other Canadians had before them. No special perks, no changing of the tolerant culture, a basic need to support our freely elected representative governments, no restricting other cultures and religions to accommodate yours. In the process of extending this generousity, Canadians have become familiar with religious and ethnic intolerance as revealed by Bombing of innocents in 2 aircraft disasters, Jihadists denouncing the country that supports them with social assistance and medical services, religious and ethnic groups collecting monies to send to other countries so comrades can ethnic cleanse, overthrow governments, suppress religion, 10 Million do0llar conscience settlements for an inconvenienced immigrant after our citizens were killed in 911 and plots for other such undertakings by the same religious group are being uncovered. This while soldiers carrying out the requirements of our elected governments have families living on subsistance wages, inadequate care for their frailties brought on by war, get their meagre pensions clawed back when they retire and suffer the abuse of an ungrateful social left that are the same ones that champion the rights of new arrivals that want Canada to provide the same environmnet that they just left behind. As Canadians lose their rights of choice in favour of legislated tolerance to extend rights to immigrants that aren't enjoyed by the general population, Canada loses it's basic morality and becomes a supporter of all those who support other cultures, religious factions and foreign beliefs while using Canada as a base from which to pursue non Canadian values of tolerance and accommodation.
  175. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: mike m. let me guess you are about 25 or 26, just spent the past couple years at grad school and the world is all rosy. great. but get real. nationalism has never been defined by 'you must love your country and hate all others'. fanatacism has, but not nationalism. get back to the article. it is about dual or mixed loyalties and is that a good thing for the country of canada. if you think you can love two things equally - be it women or something else you everyday have to show loyalty - i think you are dreaming. and one day you may have to make a sophie's choice. and the point that sane rational people are making is that when it comes to nationhood and citizenship, these two choices may well be in conflict with each other and one wonders which side 'new' canadians(a term which i hate and insults all native born canucks) might fall on. i remeber a few years ago some somalian war load who had his whole extended family - multiple wives and all - in canada and on the dole. and he was back in somalia fighting canadian soldiers having money sent to him from canada by his wives. this is called a p*ss take and it happens all the time these days. loyal canadians and brits etc. are fed up with it. and the mugs that live amongst us seem to think ithis kind of behaviour is ok.
  176. Werner George Patels from Calgary, Canada writes: Sorry, Kwany, but these numbers apply to all immigrants -- including you!!!
  177. Werner George Patels from Calgary, Canada writes: Kwany, they cost us $18 billion every year, so that number doesn't only refer to recent immigrants, but to all. Also, since you mentioned him, Trudeau himself came to regret the kind of multiculturalism his original idea had spawned. Thankfully, before his death, he had a chance to repent for what he had done to this country. Liberals, of course, sweep that under the rug, because they don't like too many people finding out that Trudeau himself turned against the kind of multiculturalism practised in Canada. I have nothing against immigrants, quite to the contrary, but I need to see a real and tangible benefit for this country. Right now, we're wasting $18 billion a year on the basket cases of the world. We need to reform our immigration system and, above all, make language testing mandatory BEFORE those people even reach Canadian soil. Too many immigrants, and even naturalized citizens, cannot speak English and/or French, which also explains why they lag behind in productivity, income, etc. We need to adopt the Australian model: mandatory language testing, only people with skills that are demand, recognition of foreign credentials BEFORE immigrants land in the country and NO family reunification program -- the reason why our health care system is clogged and Canadians die waiting for treatment and procedures is that all those old grannies that will never contribute anything to this country (and they don't learn the language either) sit around our hospitals all day. We have to smarten up (the recent Conference Board of Canada report should be a wake-up call) or fall even further behind everyone else in the industrialized world.
  178. fergus macduff from United Kingdom writes: Older'n Dirt from Belleville

    you are spot on.
  179. The graying pundit from Ottawa, Canada writes: What an indictment of multiculturalism that author Yann Martel's metaphor would refer to Canada as the world's best hotel. The inference is that we are nothing, that we stand for nothing, that there is nothing that distinguishes us as a nation or a people. Multiculturalism is a failure.
  180. A Peon in the golden boy's court from Land of ignorance, Canada writes: I see no problem with dual citizenship, part-time residency, having people going back & forth between two homelands, etc. When citizens reside here, they pay taxes here & they use the services; if they earn income here & aren’t resident, they pay taxes that income. If they have citizenship just for the passport, it’s not like they’re using the services Canadian taxpayers provide except in rare cases like the war in Lebanon 2 summers ago. Such things can be remedied by having non-resident citizens pay higher fees for Canadian passports & consular services. I love Canada because it is a great country to have grown up in & I enjoy living here. I don’t kid myself though, the grass may be greener in other pastures but have I left? No, I’m still here & it’s not because I choose to be some kind of residency martyr; I stay here because things are good here. If I felt things would be better elsewhere & I could take advantage of the greener pastures elsewhere, I would leave. Not necessarily for ever. I do entertain the idea of living & working abroad. Most of what keeps us in any place is how well it works for us; that’s made up of all kinds of things such as the job we have, the standard of living we have, the basket of goods & services available to us where we live, etc. I don’t have time for patriotism because it’s largely arbitrary. I don’t have time for nationalism because it often breeds bigotry & it’s much use unless some world athletic competition is on: hmm, do I cheer for Italy this summer in Beijing or Canada? A friend is rowing for the Brits this summer, so I guess I’m a bad Canadian if I cheer for him. It’s all arbitrary apart from the fact that we should each contribute to the goods & services we consume. And we should contribute to the society we live in: I pay taxes & do my part, I also served in the Forces, but I would go elsewhere in a heartbeat if it meant a better life for my children.
  181. The graying pundit from Ottawa, Canada writes: The problem with multiculturalism is that it implies that Canada is a blank canvas. "Come here and be what you are, do what you want to do." There are two problems with this notion of multiculturalism. The first implication is that newcomers owe no allegiance or obligation to Canada. The second implication is that Canada has no values and newcomers are free to impose theirs on the blank canvas. Both implications are wrong. Canada is a western parliamentary democracy, where church and state are separate, where the rule of secular law prevails, where men and women are equal, where we tolerate religious differences and political diversity. If you cannot subscribe to these values, there is no place for you in this "hotel".
  182. L. W. from Somewhere in BC, Canada writes: no brains on this forum yes that means you.. from wetcoast, Canada writes: ... If your wondering YES I have mulitible passports and they're easy to get, If I was force to choose between my canadian passport and the others, I would ditch the canadian passport with no hessination

    Soo.... your posting on this forum and you don't have any brains??

    By all means, please ditch your Canadian passport and leave. Please post on this forum the date and time of your flight so we can all cheer goodbyyye!!
  183. Dana Cruickshank from Canada writes: How are people even allowed to be dual citizens? What happens if we go to war with the other country? They could choose either side, while we payed for all their education and healthcare, forget that!
  184. Steve *** from United States writes: on such a great day like this, instead of celebrating 141 year of hardwork and appreciation, we argue over immigration and emmigration. shame on you. i work in US because when the Internet bust in 2001 and oursourceing took out a lot of jobs from Canada, i had two choices. eighter take a job offer in US (not because tax is lower or money is greater. it is not true) or collect my unemployment and then go to social services and try to land a job. instead i took the job in US to survive and also represent Canada and its values to our neighbour. i live by Canadian values wherever i am and i dont appreciate it when people question my patriotism.
  185. Grateful To Be Where I am from Toronto, Canada writes: Matt M from Toronto, great comments!
  186. Grateful To Be Where I am from Toronto, Canada writes: Being a Canadian who has traveled quite a bit to various countries around the world, I always come back home with a deep appreciation for country.

    I am grateful I live in a country that:

    - Is free, democratic, peaceful, and not rife with corruption
    - Gives Women, Men and Children equal rights
    - Has an accessible Healthcare system
    - Educates all people
    - Is Multicultural
    - Has Fresh Drinkable Water
    - Allows me to be who I am and who I want to be

    Hope every Canadian had a good Canada Day yesterday!
  187. Canadian Old Boy from Kelowna, Canada writes: Use me, I am Canada. Stay as long as you like, leave when you want to leave. I am convenience personified. I am Canada. Need my health care system? Don't live in Canada? Got Canadian citizenship? No problem! Come on back. Did I mention health care in Canada is free BTW? Conflict in your part of world - drop into my hotel AKA Canada! Yeah, I feel great about my country - strong (maybe) and free (absolutely).

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