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Immigrants fall behind, says Statscan

JOHN MCGRATH

Globe and Mail update and Canadian Press

Latest comment posted at 8:59 PM EST 10/09/08

Recent immigrants to Canada can't get jobs in their field, hit by dot-com bust ...Read the full article

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  1. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "René Morissette, lead analyst with Statistics Canada, said it is well documented that foreign experience has been increasingly undervalued."

    it is also well documented that immigrants are contributing less value to Canada than they were twenty-five years ago. Twenty-five years ago the bulk of immigrants came from places such as Europe. Today the bulk of immigrants come from Asia.
  2. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: "Language can also be a factor, given that recent immigrants are less likely to speak English or French"

    if this is really the case, why isn't a certain level of English or French competency mandatory in order to immigrate to Canada?
  3. John Hinkley from Thornhill, ON, Canada writes: If Immigration Canada was doing a proper job of screening applicants, this would not be a problem.

    If Canadian professional associations, especially the medical profession, took a more rational attitude to foreign trained doctors, this would be less of a problem.

    If the Government of Canada didn't pay new immigrants and refugees more money per month than they pay retired Canadian citizens, then maybe this folks would get out and get a job.

    If, if, if...............................
  4. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: The simple fact is that in this situation everyone is loosing. New immigrants are loosing because they are being sold a bill of goods by our government. Second generation Canadians are loosing by a cultural transformation which is unwanted or uneeded. The only party to benefit from what I can see is the government, who are conciously working to convince everyone that our current immigration situation is a good thing.
  5. Ron Pacific from Vancouver, Canada writes: Out of all of the results, this is one of the most glaring and troubling problems identified in the census. Educated male recent immigrants make less than 50% than Canadian born individuals with the same amount of education! I believe this is the result of a number of factors. The first is that Immigration Canada gave maximum points to immigrants who had advanced degrees without regard to whether they actually could find a job with the advanced degrees from the home country and perhaps a lower level of English/French proficiency. There also is a problem with credentials - not just in terms of recognition but the fact that for instance, a law degree in India or even Britain is not the same as one from North America. At the same time, many skilled immigrant tradespeople who did not require a high level of English to thrive in Canada (in high demand) were turned away by us. What we did is to steal the best educated people from poor countries and use them to drive our taxis and clean our floors. Finally, and this is a very ugly fact as can be noted by some of the comments - - - there still is systemic yet subtle discrimination in Canada - even in Vancouver - against those who are non white and speak with an accent. This explains why it is not uncommon to meet immigrant cab drivers with advanced science degrees from North American schools. It is more than equivalent professional credentials - it is a poor immigration policy and, unfortunately, racism.
  6. max h from writes: Dear Wicked Messenger Perhaps you would like to share with us this well documented source that you quote. So we all can see how this conclusion was arrived at --- " it is also well documented that immigrants are contributing less value to Canada than they were twenty-five years ago. Twenty-five years ago the bulk of immigrants came from places such as Europe. Today the bulk of immigrants come from Asia." I am sure you are one of those wonderful person without a single biased bone in your body. How does one expect an immigrant professional (from a minority community) who is not given an opportunity to work as one, (except as a cab driver) to contribute as much as a professional from a european country, who is allowed to practise his/her profession, is beyond my comprehension --- but then I am also one of those not so smart immigrant professionals. Except for one big difference -- I got my Engineering and MBA degrees from two of the leading Canadian universities. And for those of you who think there is no discrimination in Canada, well you need to be in our shoes. Most Canadians do not discriminate overtly, however one does run into it without a doubt. And perhaps its not discrimination -- perhaps its just that the Canadian employer is not willing to take the risk. I have worked in Canada and the US and my experience is that the US is more accepting of its immigrants and more open to give them an equal chance at the position, which unfortunately is not so in Canada. One just has to look at the positions immigrants have achieved in US industry and the start-ups attributed to them versus that in Canada. I notice this more and more in my interactions with industry groups and politicians.
  7. Peter Ochodo from Montreal, Canada writes: it's only natural for new folks to begin last. The solution is time.
  8. W W from Canada writes: What racism? Canada accepts very few white immigrants in favours of visible minorities, so it is difficult to make a case of racism here. As far as someone with advance science degree driving a cab... Well, it is incredibly difficult for anyone to establish himself in science. Almost everyone has a degree these days. My question would be where this cab driver had his post doctorate. How many article did he published in peer-reviewed journals. This type of job is competitive, so has he bother to apply to any North American university and is it possible that the preference was given to someone with more publications, teaching experience and more relevant area of research. If the type of advance degree he has is just a master’s degree in science without any professional certification then finding a job in this case is difficult.
  9. Lewis Armstrong from Queen's Park, Canada writes:

    This is a fault line of sorts. it's a problem we need to fix.
  10. Ron Pacific from Vancouver, Canada writes: I'm sorry to say but I do know at least two non-white immigrants working at university faculties in Canada with degrees from top US schools who have excellent publications in North American peer reviewed journals. Both have had terrible times at their respective jobs and had to fight every inch of the way to get tenure. While their colleagues published half of their journals and continually were promoted into high administrative jobs, these non-white professors were denied promotions and raises. Many students were critical of their accents in teaching evaluations. The fact is their is racism in the workplace and I see it every week even in so called progressive Vancouver. It is one thing to have different qualifications and be treated differently. It is quite another to have exactly the same or better North American qualifications and make half as much as your caucasion colleague who does not have any accent.
  11. W W from Canada writes: I agree with you Ron Pacific, these facts are upsetting. You have mentioned that the students were critical of their accent. Unfortunately or fortunately the students are important stakeholders in Canadian academia and the student's evaluation of a professor is in the centre of the teaching process. This evaluation is taken into account when the tenure is considered. It is difficult for the administration to ignore the results of the evaluation. The students are also involved in the faculty interview process. So may be it is the accent that holds those professors back? Depending on the school or department the white students might not be even the majority any more. But I am not denying of course that racism exists in Canada.
  12. W W from Canada writes: The statistics says that the recent immigrants do not do as well as Canadian. One explanation would be that recent immigrants are still taking language or professional courses, or working on their professional certifications.
  13. Westcoastser from Delta from Canada writes: There are biases in the work place but they are based more on language (fluency, colloquilism and accent) than race. There are many non white immigrants (from the UK for example) who experience little to no bias in the work place. As far as credentials go, Canada is quite closed compared to the US and consequently some of the best qualified people go to the US, which ends up being our loss. Nursing is one area where we are losing out. Many qualified nurses from the Philippines do well in the US but have to work as maids here.
  14. Westcoastser from Delta from Canada writes: Another difference between now and 25 years ago is the change in the economic land scape. Back then there were many manufacturing jobs (lumber mills in BC for example) where language would not play a prominent role at work. With service jobs language , mannerism and accent play a huge part.
  15. Ron Pacific from Vancouver, Canada writes: I agree that accents and language place a huge place in terms of workplace discrimination or preferences, if you will, but such discrimination based on language ultimately is tied to race, unfortunately, so this really is related to racism. I saw a study once which indicated that incomes/workplace were tied to the type of accents one had. For instance, those with English accents actually were more likely to be hired than those with standard Canadian accents and was a plus in the workplace even if sometimes difficult to understand (especially in the public service). South African and Australian accents also were favoured. German accents were quite acceptable and slightly positive from what I recall. Eastern European and French were neutral to slightly negative. Having a Chinese or Latin accent had a negative effect. South Asian (Punjabi), Middle Eastern, Phillipino accents etc. had a very negative effect. Why is it that a non-white, "poor" country accent results in discrimination but someone from a wealthy "white" country gets benefits because of a foreign accent? Isn't that racism? I could give you numerous distressing examples of what I see on a weekly basis in Vancouver. Friends in university positions who have strong accents with great publication records and credentials not getting deserved promotions. I have a friend with a strong but understandable Hong Kong accent who is a "new" Canadian but a full and very patriotic Canadian citizen. He has a degree from a Canadian university and wished to serve his country in the Canadian military. He went to an interview but was politely told his "communication" skills needed some work and, as such, he would be better off working as an enlisted soldier as opposed to an officer even though he was well qualified to be an officer. It is very distressing to see such good, hard working people in such difficult positions.
  16. l m from Canada writes: Racism, smacism - is that all you lefties can ever come up with? This has nothing to do with "racism". If racism were the problem, Third Worlders wouldn't be here in the first place. White Canadians are having huge problems too. Just try being an unemployed, older white male (university educated, I might add) in this marketplace. Between lazy Canadian employers who want ready-made drones (no training or assembly needed) and a huge influx of educated immigrants who are driving wages down, the labour market is not a nice place for anyone these days - old or young, white or black, Canadian or immigrant. And I'll be honest - I haven't a clue how to fix this mess.
  17. Raymond Durrani from Ajax, Canada writes: Well! Send them back to their countries and see how far in front they fall?

    It is like all those doctors and engineers who complaint that they can not find job in their fields and why. I would like to ask them a questions though, especially to the doctors.

    "I suggest that you go back and explain it to your government and people in particular your behaviour of leaving the country when you could have helped the both"

    "these doctors have betrayed their native countries, which spent tons of money training them to fill in the gapwhich was widening because of increasing population of their respective countries. As soon these doctors became capable of helping their governments and people, they left the country - talk about greed"

    "these doctors and engineers deprived their people and governments who can least afford - their fellow citizens - by leaving the country. There is limit to ones greed. There is, in my view, no justification for their unforgiveable behaaviour"

    Tell these doctors and Engineers to stop complaining and tell this Liberal Mafia guy, McGinty to screwing up the system by bending the rules. These people have to write exams to qualify to become doctors and engineers like our kids did.
  18. R. Oliver from Brazil writes: Well..... I live a good life in Brazil: a good salary, my own house free of debts, family and yet I've decided to immigrate to Canada, which is likely to hapen soon. It's a personnal decision, not related to life conditions here: I just want to live in another country. Among those with immigration programs, Canada seemed to be the best choice. But reading some articles, as well as some comments such as Wicked messenger's, I am giving our plans a second thought : perhaps countries such as England may give proper value to my "local" MBA. By the way: how can management , leadership and financial skills to name a few habilities, be different in Canada? Several good managers succeed after a country relocation, why Canadians don't even consider this may be the case for some really skilled immigrants? Shame....

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