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The rich, the poor, and the chasm between

TAVIA GRANT

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 9:05 AM EST 01/05/08

Census data released Thursday show recent immigrants victims of widening income disparity as middle class stagnates ...Read the full article

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  1. Milos Gravity from Canada writes: You should see the gap between people who work really hard and save and those who don't. That's a gap.
  2. Comments closed, censored, deleted or made to disappear from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: 'The rich, the poor, and the chasm between', by Karl Marx, nineteenth century! Time for some substantial reading. Long overdue!
  3. CD W from Canada writes: The paper cup parasite should be on the Toronto Flag and letterhead. When you create a situation whereby people can engage in total personal freedom and can demand that we pay for it, well you get cup boy. When Gerard Kennedy was Minister of Education he was on a call in radio show. He said that every child would be in school, so I am driving off the Gardiner at Spadina where the parasites block traffic for cash. I am on the phone with the Minister and I tell him that there is a truant yoot demanding cash from me. The kid looked 13 or 14. The Minister was not interested in coming down to pick him up. So this is where it starts. If there was no acceptance of children begging for money with older adults at highway cut offs, you might stop some of this.

    As for the gap between rich and poor, when I was making very little money, it was enough to keep me from GST rebates and other payments. Now that I am so far away from those things, it turns out that I am not living any higher on the hog as I was before, I just have no debt and like other Canadians, the house is almost paid off. Does this make me rich? The government says yes, so when you start using stats, I am not fooled.
  4. Rosehill Avenue from Toronto, Canada writes: Nothing surprising at all here.

    In my opinion, income/wealth disparity is the number one issue facing our society today globally. (I've had some very intelligent and respected ppl tell me they think its global warming but I think its #2)
  5. Allan Gunn from Kirkland Lake, Canada writes: Well I for one have to agree that that the poorer are getting to be just that poorer.
    I have always managed to save and put away money for a so called rainy day. I am just barely holding my own now. I am I supose one of the lucky ones in the fact that I have owned my home outright for a long time but in saying this I am finding it incresingly harder and harder to hang on to it.
  6. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: Picture certainly establishes something I've long known: when people saying 'working class' or 'bottom quintile' they really mean those who don't work at all, some of whom have no intention of starting. What's Oscar Wilde's joke -- work is the vice of the drinking class?

    Feel sorry for the immigrants, however. What can be done? Most arrive effectively unskilled. How many convenience store clerks and cab drivers do we need?
  7. L'actualite Conservative from Scarborough, Canada writes: Stories based on statistics without statistical context are the lowest and laziest form of the fith estate. The G&M should be ashamed of publishing stories like this.
  8. K F from Canada writes: Parasite? What a way to describe people. And, you own a house... I'd say that was privilege - in fact, your comments drip of privilege CD W.

    Street Health Stories might help some humanize the 'parasites' as you call them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-omQ5rr3GUk or check http://www.streethealth.ca/home.htm and scroll down to see a film using statistics.
  9. Mark Orr from Toronto, Canada writes: CDW I agree, I NEVER give pan handlers money. If people stopped giving them money, we would have ZERO pan handlers. If they are in a real crisis, they can go to a soup kitchen. But since soup kitchens do not provide booze or drugs, I guess they don't bother. I actually offered to buy a 'starving' pan handler a hot dog once...but unsurprisingly he was only taking cash.....
  10. Milos Gravity from Canada writes: ...and what exactly does the picture of the hobo have to do with this story and the poor? Are you implying, Globe, that it's just a decent job that stands between this bum and mortgage payments, soccer practice and Rotary meetings? Or that if we stopped to put some money in his cup he'd rush off and open a business?
  11. Not left,right or centre but forward got it from Toronto, Canada writes: What ever happened to a meritocracy? Why is everyones ability to live high on the hog my responsibility. We live in a society and with that comes responsibility for your neighbours. I support paying for hope so that those without have a chance to climb up. Get an education, work hard be productive and you'll do well. Education is mandatory at first then affordable within reason. We have a good charter that protects people from discrimination and a reasonable court system with low crime. We have welfare, socialized medicine and food banks plus all the local charities. There is nothing stopping someone capable from giving themselves a hand up. What more do you want? Does anybody ever look at the poor equation from the other side? How can a person made bad decisions in life and expect to come out on top? Didn't want to work hard in school, dropped out, bitched about how you were entitled to more money despite being unskilled. Too bad. You reap what you sow.
  12. Ricky for a Centrist Canada from Canada writes:
    I see the Con trolls are out in full force with their stereotypes again.

    Poor = lazy.

    How comforting that must be for you.

    Idiots.
  13. Cooler Head from West of TO, Canada writes: Someone tell me exactly what George Soros or Stephen Schwartzman do to earn their $2 billion plus last year.

    To put it in perspective, a minimum wage earner working 2000 hours last year would have made $16 000. So, to equal Soros, that same wage earner would have to work 143 750 years.

    Seems perfectly reasonable doesn't it?
  14. L'actualite Conservative from Scarborough, Canada writes: Odd how the G&M forgot to add these notes from the Stats Can report

    The tax system, however, has helped to reduce the widening gap in incomes, according to the report from the census, which for the first time includes after-tax incomes as well.

    'After-tax income depicts in a better fashion what families have available to spend,' the report said

    The collection of after-tax information allowed for what some argue is also a better measure of the proportion of low-income Canadians,

    On an after-tax basis, the proportion of Canadians living on low incomes in 2005 was 11.4 per cent, rising to a high of 14.5 per cent for children five and under who lived in low-income families, it said.

    low-income Canadians, which Statistics Canada define as those living in families that spend 20 percentage points or more of their after-tax income than the average family on the basics of food, shelter, and clothing.
  15. Unknown Philosopher from Canada writes: Could the explanation lie in the relative huge influx(supply) of immigrants in the past 10 years. I think something like 200,000 to 300,000 per year in that period Lots more people competing for the jobs that immigrants typically fall into could explain to some measure the relative drop in recent immigrant incomes.
  16. Comments closed, censored, deleted or made to disappear from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Not left,right or centre but forward got it: 'Get an education, work hard be productive and you'll do well.' -- Extreme voluntarism. How trite! Even children, with their limited experience of life, already know better by age 10. They still remain fundamentally human and compassionate, having not been totally dehumanized yet. Makes me think of the child in Cormac McCarthy's 'The Road'... human even The Day After, human to the last breath.
  17. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    Majority of immigrants are not admitted to Canada because of their skills. Family class immigrants are the largest group. As a result the majority of immigrants are not literate in English or French. This accounts (in part) for the failure of recent immigrants to keep up with those born in Canada.
  18. Cuban Cigar from Canada writes: CD W, Mark Orr - You must absolutly hate me. I always give to the panhandlers. As a matter of fact, I make sure I have some toonies and loonies in my car or in my pocket for just such opportunities. I feel bad / guilty when I don't have change and encounter a panhandler (or a street musician especially) I don't consider them parasites at all. I look at them and often think, there for the grace of god... I realize they more than likely buy booze and drugs, but who am I to judge or dictate their behaviour. Yes, there are some who take advantage but I think most are lost souls who need help but we as a sociey have decided that we would rather have a tax cut instead. As for the income gap - this is exactly the result. The poor live at the privilage of the rich. The rich decide what services the poor are to receive. Medical assistance (i think most street people suffer from some type of disorder) is no longer a right but a privilage confered upon them by the rich - if and when they choose to do so. The result is that the middle class (I suspect CD W, Mark Orr, we belong) is lost and government policies are dictated by the elite. Democracy is lost. Result, soon perhaps not us, but our children or their children will be on the streets and will be called parasites.
  19. I, Publius from Canada writes: Kudos to JC for pointing out the changing nature of the class categorized as 'immigrants'. If the skill level does not remain constant, how can the average earnings?

    I would also like to know why it is so bad that the real purchasing power of the middle income hasn't changed? The Globe sort of slips in that the numbers are inflation adjusted.

    As for the rich getting richer... go back to JC's point on the skill set of the immigrants. If the folks who have new ideas can now market them globally, of course they'll be doing better than if they are constrained to a local market.

    Another point lost on some is that it is not the 'rich' getting richer. It is the avearge income of the top earners that is getting higher. I'm pretty sure that the Eaton Family is not 'richer' now than it was prior to bankruptcy.
  20. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    J.C. Davies: Greetings

    ' ... As a result the majority of immigrants are not literate in English or French. This accounts (in part) for the failure of recent immigrants to keep up with those born in Canada....'

    The real reason is disappearance of high skilled jobs from Canada, and proliferation of Wal-Mart greeters and Tim Horten order takers.

    After 35 years here in Canada I had to go to the US to get a decent job. But you do have a point. My English skills did deteriorate during my stay in Canada until I was unfit for a job here.

    BTW I did teach at MBA level at a French University in Montreal in early 1990s - just if you were wondering if being bi-lingual is the answer. It was useful 40 years ago. I would now advise my kids to take up Chinese.
  21. Unknown Philosopher from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    We need to abandon Democracy, and seek a better system.

    Democracy is the rule of the Demos, the 5-10% monied males who rule over women, slaves, plebs, and helots.

    This is nonsense. We live in an age of hyperdemocracy. The masses are in charge and it does have its own dangers.

    Before you respond with your usual slant read this.

    http://www.4literature.net/JoseOrtegayGasset/RevoltoftheMasses/

    I see we've become attached to the word helots.
  22. Mr. Sarcasm from Toronto, Canada writes: Cooler Head from West of TO, Canada writes: 'Someone tell me exactly what George Soros or Stephen Schwartzman do to earn their $2 billion plus last year.'

    Although I am not one of his biggest fans, George Soros actually donates an obscene amount of money every year to various charities. And he makes in money by being an expert in global markets (i.e. currencies), not wasting time by complaining on a chat board.

    Why he needs to apologize to you for being intelligent and have the ability to translate that into money is mind boggling.
  23. The choices we make decide our place in life from Canada writes: Ricky for a Centrist Canada from Canada writes: 'Poor = lazy.'

    Ricky, you have that backwards: Lazy = Poor.

    As NOT LEFT,RIGHT OR CENTRE writes 'How can a person make bad decisions in life and expect to come out on top? Didn't want to work hard in school, dropped out, bitched about how you were entitled to more money despite being unskilled. Too bad. You reap what you sow.'

    I made bad decisions 25 years ago. But after 5 years of living the results of those bad decisions I returned to school and actually took responsibility for myself. Now I am a highly paid IT professional, I own a nice house, rental properties, and other investments. In fact, everyone I know who actually thinks through their decisions and works hard are doing very well. Everyone I know who refuses to admit that their decisions may not have been the best choices and/or they don't want to put in a little extra effort are not doing so well.

    Its not being a conservative, its being a realist.
  24. Pete H from Canada writes: Ricky for a Centrist Canada from Canada writes:
    I see the Con trolls are out in full force with their stereotypes again.

    Poor = lazy.

    How comforting that must be for you.

    Idiots.

    I see a loonie lefty is sterotyping based on ill informed and partisan blindness again. Is there any hope?
  25. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Unknown Philosopher: Greetings

    ' .... We live in an age of hyperdemocracy....'

    Correction.

    ' .... We liveD in an ....' before Reaganomics and Thatcherism.
  26. The choices we make decide our place in life from Canada writes: K F from Canada writes: 'Parasite? What a way to describe people. And, you own a house... I'd say that was privilege - in fact, your comments drip of privilege CD W.'

    Actually K F, people of privilege are those who are born into wealth and do nothing to earn or grow it. The people whom you are attacking, including me, have worked for what they have. Many of them came up from meager means and still managed to achieve success despite the difficulties faced by those without financial means.; much like I did.

    So K F, they are not privileged, they deserve every thing they have and they have earned the right to be annoyed with those who refuse to work yet demand compensation from the wealthy for no other reason that because the poor are poor and the wealthy are wealthy.

    Here is an idea for these people. Re-evaluate your lives. Make some smart decisions and actually work for what you want.
  27. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Unknown Philosopher:

    ' ... Before you respond with your usual slant read this...'

    No. I do not need to. I just have to walk outside and see for myself.

    In 1983 I went to Moscow on a tour. One of the programmed trips was to 'The Museum of National Achievements'

    I refused to go. Told the guide/handler that the real achievements are seen in the street, not in a museum.

    Keep on burying your head in books and Hollywood. What I see is a panhandler on every corner. That is terra firma not silver screen. No wonder you philosophize. Remember what Democracy did to Socrates?
  28. David Simon from Canada writes: 1/ One reason immigrants make very little money when they come to Canada is because officials in Canadian consulates abroad make it seem like Canada has lots and lots of jobs everywhere. They are Liberals and want immigrants to come and vote Liberal.

    2/ Another reason families make more than single individuals is because single individuals make up the majority of the very poor and no one wants to form a family with the very poor (or in some cases middle income earners).

    3/ Soros has become the Parvus of our age-a man with lots of money who makes a lot of problems with what he gives away.
  29. Imperial K from Toronto, Canada writes: God some of you listen to CFRB 'Angry White Male' radio too much!

    Every system, every where on the planet has pan handlers. We're talking about the working poor, people who do work, but don't have enough money to really support themselves.

    The biggest danger here is the middle class no budging, so prices have gone up but not wages all that much...surprise surprise the economy is ditching.

    It's not the wealthy who keep it ticking along, it's 20 million people buying milk and bread every day.
  30. Craig Scott from Republic of Newfoundland, Canada writes: I would suspect that when Immigrant first started coming to this country they were skilled workers and now their kids are following in their footsteps and are also skilled. These are the people that are in the middle class.

    Then we have the immigrants we have been getting for the past 25 years.......the poor, uneducated refugee type of immigrant that come here and have absolutly no skills therefore adding to the welfare rolls and increasing the number of poor.

    Earnings and the state of society is a reflection of the people we let come to this country.
  31. The choices we make decide our place in life from Canada writes: Bubbles McBubbles from Trawna, Canada writes: 'Poor privileged CD W being harrassed by 'cup parasites'. Young beggars blocking his car on Spadina. Outrageous! How dare they! So poor baby makes a call to the minister. Just be thankful those cup parasites don't haul you out of your fancy car and string you up by your intestines. If you create enough of them they just might do that one day. :)'

    This is a typical socialist mentality. Don't work for what you want, just demand it from others. Then when you don't get it, resort to threats and violence.
  32. Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: As a person who works in a place where I see immigrants pretty much the day after they arrive here I can say this:

    1) A majority of immigrants who come here cannot speak a single word of English. They are sponsored by family and are here because no matter how poor they are here, it's better than where they came from. (go Canada!)

    2) Some immigrants come over and begin immediately to learn the language and to become literate in English. Those that do and are driven, succeed, those that don't will be poor. There are limitless oppotunities in Canada, but they are just that, opportunities, they are not freebies or handouts, nor should they be. My father came here at the age of ten and learned the language, he learned a skilled trade and did very well for himself. He is by no means rich but I would say my family is the Canadian dream.

    It's a cycle, either perpetuate it or break it, it's your choice. Anyone who comes here and expects to become wealthy without learning English is a fool or has been lied to.
  33. The choices we make decide our place in life from Canada writes: Cooler Head from West of TO, Canada writes: 'Someone tell me exactly what George Soros or Stephen Schwartzman do to earn their $2 billion plus last year.'

    They take risks that most other people don't. They provide employment. They work pretty much 24/7, not 9to5.
  34. Radcliffe Robinson from Toronto, Canada writes: It is good to know that the economy has grown over the past 25 years. But we could do even much better if we get more people involved. One U of T economic professor once estimated the economy was losing about $39 billion per year as a result of the skilled immigrant which are not being utulized. The economy is only losing when we shut out these talents. And immigrants are not taking away jobs of Canadians. The Canadian economy is growing faster than the population. Without immigrants, the pupulation would actually decline. It not NOT true that most immigrants are not educated. The figures revealed are that 62 % of them (self sponsorship) have university degrees - a lot higher than the 11% of regular Canadians. And as for English. Immigrants know that we use the verb IS after none, any, either, everybody, nobody etc. All over the media we hear none of them ARE, Either ARE, No one ARE...Come on, this is not standard english. And 'those ones' is not standard english too... There are many cases of immigrants going back to Canadian universities and still not getting the jobs they are qualified for. Even when they get work, it's casual and low paying. Who is really an immigrant? The first nations folkes would say all of us are immigrants as we 'stole their land'.
  35. Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: One more thing, the simple fact is that most people born here who make poor choices are never explained the ramifications of those poor choices.

    When a high schooler skips class to smoke weed, he or she have no idea that what seems like a trivial decision then will have implications for the rest of their lives. If somebody told a kid on their first day of high school 'don't mess the next four years up, because they will largely determine your level of success and wealth for the rest of your lives' maybe kids would better understand that they aren't just there to have fun. Nobody mentions that to them unless they have good parents, if they don't they fall through the cracks and end up asking for change under the Gardiner Expressway.
  36. The choices we make decide our place in life from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'We need to abandon Democracy, and seek a better system.'

    What did you have in mind? As the old saying goes; 'Don't come to me with a problem, come to me with a solution.'
  37. Friendly Anglo from Ottawa, Canada writes: There are lots of jobs out there. Granted, they are minimum wage, but we all have to start somewhere. That is the point though. We all have to start.
    I know mental illness is an issue with some of the homeless and probably a lot of them had crappy childhoods. (me too, by the way). A lot of kids prefer to live outside their homes, because there are rules at home and they don't want the rules, so they leave. Encouraging begging isn't going to help. Most could get a job if they wanted, but they don't want to. Rules again. People work the 'system' and leave less for the people who really need it. What ever happened to workfare by the way. I always thought that was a good idea.
  38. Blaque Jacque Shallaque from Canada writes: All this uncontrolled immigration is simply creating future social problems.

    We need to slow it and reconsider what Canada really needs.

    Two obvious sources of trouble are the easily duped and manipulated refugee system which brings people here who little or no prospect of becoming successful Canadians, and the family unification system which simply brings in too many elderly parents and has been widely abused in other ways too.

    I'm glad the Harper gvt is at least looking at the 'sacred cow' of immigration, but I fear they will be doing much too little, far too late.
  39. guy tozer from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Immigrants are doing poorly!. Look at the cranberry and farming fiasco in B.C. . Immigrant run companies and 'farms', exploiting their countrymen. Where is the immigration department to follow up on their new 'Canadians'??
  40. Paul Collins from Canada writes: This story should not be such a shock. Everyone in their 20's, 30's, or even 40's, know at least one person who who has slipped through the cracks and don't even register on the census radar. The longer we ignore this, the worse it will get. Look at the land prices out there. In the US, land prices have collasped. The US has a population of 250 million and the land is cheaper. We in Canada, have a population of 30 million and it is more expensive. Why is our real estate market so out of sync with the US prices? The Canadian land prices are inflated. That is just one example of what is wrong. I feel the babyboom generation started out with noble principles but have since been degenerated. The babyboom generation is the most greediest, selfish generation in recent history. They monopolize the land, the resources, and the monetary system and they treat the next generation like it is a security threat. If they cry about not having a pension when they retire, let them all eat dog food.
    Mystery of Everyman's Way
  41. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Radcliffe Robinson: Greetings

    ' ... It is good to know that the economy has grown over the past 25 years...'

    Really? I have seen nothing but real decline since 35 years, that will likely continue unless we change.

    When I landed in 1968 it was possible for a young engineer a few years out of school with a young wife and two little kids to afford a two-car garage house and stay-home wife and expect his kids to attend university one day.

    Today, if the engineer and his partner in 30s are not both working, they can not afford to buy a house. The children can wait until the couple is in late 30s, if at all.

    Some growth. Economists call it inflation.

    The real issue of existence is survival, growth, and evolution. Canada is failing miserably. To rectify it imports people showing them the rose garden, who in turn under-achieve.

    The problem - Democracy, the Demos, the 5-10% monied males who rule over women, slaves, plebs, and helots.
  42. Ed Andrews from Edmonton, Canada writes: Regarding the 'highly educated' immigrants (next article down in this series) when I was in university, a chap who had taken his bachelors degree in Egypt came to take his masters degree in engineereing. Well, they dropped him back, not to forth year, but to third year engineering; he was in some of my classes, and even then he was struggling.
  43. W W from Canada writes: The most difficult concept to grasp for many new immigrants is that the jobs in Canada are competitive. If you skills are good but someone has skills set that simply match better what is required he will get the job. In most countries where the immigrants are coming from the jobs are not so competitive, due to the low pay.

    The situation with jobs in Canada is not perfect but it is much better than in most Western European countries. Getting a good paying job in Europe is almost impossible, especially for an immigrant, as most of the jobs are getting outsourced to the Eastern Europe. We are lucky so far because of our geographical location, and it looks like the high fuel prices are protecting us.
  44. Fake Name from Canada writes: ' Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:
    We need to abandon Democracy, and seek a better system.
    Democracy is the rule of the Demos, the 5-10% monied males who rule over women, slaves, plebs, and helots.......
    Now India, China, et al turning middle class and refusing to slave. In the West Disappearing middle class, declining haves, and sprouting have-nots.'

    Could you please clarify how the Dalits (untouchables) in India, or the average factory workers in China working for pennies a day, are not a virtual slaves? Furthermore, arguing that anyone in canada is disenfranchised from the democratic process BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO LAZY TO VOTE is ridiculous.
  45. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Fake Name: Greetings

    ' ... Could you please clarify how the Dalits (untouchables) in India, or the average factory workers in China working for pennies a day, are not a virtual slaves? ...'

    They indeed are. You are right.

    My point was that with a larger % of middle class in India that is growing, India will become more middle class Democracy maybe in 100 years, while Canada will deteriorate from a middle class Democracy of the recent past to an Athenian Democracy as it has been doing for the last 20 years since Mulroney.
  46. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    'The US has a population of 250 million and the land is cheaper. We in Canada, have a population of 30 million and it is more expensive. Why is our real estate market so out of sync with the US prices? The Canadian land prices are inflated. That is just one example of what is wrong.'

    Land is expensive in Canada because it is in effect rationed by way of planning and development requirements. The longer it takes to develop raw land the more expensive that land becomes. In the GTA takes about 10 years for land to be developed which accounts for the high prices (same is true for southern California). With the 'green belt' legislation the supply of developable land has further been reduced with higher prices to be the end result.
  47. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: I really don't understand how Ontario went from 'have' to 'have not', virtually overnight. What has happened? Was it a provincial economy subsidized to such a point as to when the dollar rose in value, the bottom fell out? Beyond belief, in some respects.
  48. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Maybe immigrants in previous years had a stronger work ethic?
  49. Sue W from Canada writes: More than 600,000 Canadians earned $100,000 or more in 2005. And in 2007 over 42,000 provincial public servants in Ontario earned over $100,000. It begs the question as to how many other provincial & federal public servants, plus contractors, across Canada belong to the $100,000 pool and are then directly contributing to the widening earnings gap between the rich and poor? If income disparity is truly a problem, then this would be the best place to start correcting it.

    If our government really wants to increase the amount of income earned for immigrants back to 1980 levels they could start by cleaning up their haphazard immigration methods and increasing the number of immigrants who have actual marketable skills required and in demand by employers into Canada, not those in demand in the immigrants home country. The problem is then compounded when immigrants with no-or-low skills who bring in family members with equally questionable skills under CIC’s family reunification program. Not only is this not helpful to Canada, it's questionable as to whether immigrants and their families might have been better off, or preferred to have stayed in their home country.
  50. CD W from Canada writes: Well for all of the socialists out there, I grew in Downsview in the 1960's in poverty. I acquired a moderate education, and took a few risks, which seemed to have panned out. When I called the Minister, he was on the CBC Toronto noon show saying that he had solved the yoot truancy issue. He had not, and one of his charges was demanding money, instead of demanding an education. So all I have done is what all homeowners do, we pay off the mortgage and save a few bucks. This makes me rich? No it makes me normal. I do know the difference between those that cannot work versus those who wont work, even if you held a gun to their heads. It is said,'In Canada if you work, you eat, if you work hard, you eat well'.

    In Toronto when they divided the homeless budget into the number of homeless, it came out to 32,000 dollars per bum. This is why we laugh at the socialist trollops of Toronto, build it and they will come and do nothing!
  51. Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada writes: Fake Name from Canada writes: 'arguing that anyone in canada is disenfranchised from the democratic process BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO LAZY TO VOTE is ridiculous.'

    Yes it is ridiculous, but that does not mean that many in this country are disenfranchised. And voting under the present rules won't change that. So why bother.
    The reason many Canadians are disenfranchised from the democratic process is our first-past-the-post electoral system which is more of a horse race than a democratic election. The democratic ethos is that people - all the people not merely the ones who cross the finish line first - govern themselves. As long as we cheer 30 some percent of the vote as representing a majority of Canadians with a right to 100 percent of the power to govern, and as long as governments use the archaic convention of the confidence vote to turn the citizens' right to vote into a threat with which to intimidate opposing views, many citizens will continue to be disenfranchised and thus be reduced to the status of non-citizen.
  52. Michael Tripper from Vancouver looking for full time career work, Canada writes: let's see I was born here, have done things of merit yet I am what one would call pre-homeless looking for work.

    Merit is bogus - there is only a go along to get along mediocrity in Canada.

    www.michaeltripper.com
  53. P Martin from St. John's, Canada writes: A good number of people in Canada making more than 100K are from the government - at both levels. It would not surprise me if they were the majority. Government is the main reason for the discrepancy between the wealthy and the poor in Canada. And the government has continued to follow the US more and more in this way.
  54. Alonso Garnet from Canada writes: The gap between those willing to get up at 6 am to be at work at 8 am and are willing to work a 40 hour work week is widening with those who don't want to get up or work. We must do something about this.
  55. Imperial K from Toronto, Canada writes: Well not, the min wage jobs are not starting jobs...they are just cheap people's solution to buying a 57th Porche for their son and daughter.

    I mean by all means go ahead, with global prices rising and people not making more, or worse...less. The rich will get hit to. The system is ripe for collapse, not enough money, and prices too high.

    I would even say depression is coming. Too much has been taken by too few, and they didn't get rich by spending it...so don't think it'll filter down anytime soon!

    They just sit on their dragon horde until doomsday.
  56. Corbin Elliott from Toronto, Canada writes: This may be a silly question but I'll risk the embarrassment...

    'Employment earnings account for four-fifths of income, though that's a smaller proportion from a quarter century ago, when earnings accounted for almost $84.'

    Is that supposed to read: 84% or am I missing something here?
  57. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Here's a simple way to get poor Canadians to earn more:

    Teach the following MANDATORY topics in high school:

    RRSPS, Investing & passive income
    Credit Scores & credit cards
    Everything you need to know about buying a house
    Everything you need to know about leasing or buying a car
    Why politics affects your everday life & why you must keep gov't in check
  58. Brenton E. from Canada writes: Corporations go off shore to increase share holder profits.
    Governments cater to corporations.
    Distribution of wealth has been strangled by the destruction of unions and
    the corporation and the rich getting most tax advantages.
    Decreases in education investment.

    Gated communities, negative social trends, infostructure decay

    I could go on but why bother, the whole bloody mess needs an enima
  59. roy f from van, Canada writes: I don't imagine they even included the huge fortunes being made in organized crime..
  60. Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: Michael,

    Not to sound sarcastic, but if you're looking for work and are 'pre-homeless', maybe you should stop paying for the red and black globe insider icon for a few months and save the sixteen bucks. I post here for free and just imagine the fancy icon instead. Not the same, but cheaper.

    Just a thought.
  61. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Blaque Jacque Shallaque: Hi

    ' .... All this uncontrolled immigration is simply creating future social problems....'

    If there was no immigration, then how would the locals be able to afford living without working?
  62. Cdn Expat from Washington, D.C., United States writes: First, an observation: That which is described in the article is pretty much the same as what has been going on in the U.S.. So don't look for a uniquely Canadian explanation. Second, two tenative explanations: (1) Skill-biased technical change. What that means is that wages and salaries are rising for those with the right skills and falling for many others. (2) Assortive mating. The article notes that family incomes are rising even as median individual incomes are not. What is going on is that the well educated are marrying each other, leaving behind the rest. It used to be that an educated man might marry his secretary. No more. (No secretaries, for one thing!) Now, the educated one is more likely to be a woman, and she'll do her darndest to marry an educated man, if she can find one. Third, an open question: why are today's immigrants doing so much worse than the last generation's? Would anyone really argue that racism is worse today than it was a generation ago? Preposterous. The work of Don Devoretz and colleagues at RIIM, at Simon Fraser University suggests that the quality of immigrants accepted by Canada has been in decline as the country has emphasized resettling of refugees and family reunification over skills and employability. Whatever the facts, this is a subject that seems worthy of more scrutiny and dispassionate policy making.
  63. Robert Tomas from Toronto, Canada writes: Just when we think that we live in a cosmopolitan, tolerant and reasonable country, one needs only to read this blog to see the true Canadian colours - and they ain't Maple Leaf and Tim Hortons.
    Prejudice, lack of empathy, blatant racism and Not In My Backyard - shame on you, fellow Canadians. Take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror. Or better yet, go to your room and think about your behaviour. Makes me want to sterilize my Canadian passport. Shame.
  64. Maurice Aubry from Canada writes: Is this really a surprise? Britain published the ethnicity and welfare statistics a few months ago. (They seemed to have the guts) It turns out that something like more than 80% of immigrants from cultures different from Britain's were requiring social assistance. Meanwhile, less than 5% of those from eastern Europe (Poland) required it. If our immigration policies continue then why complain about it. We are a generous people. Now that these people are in Canada and are having larger families with one wage earner because the wife is not allowed to work, there is very little that can be done. The Liberals like the status quo because this represents their voting base. Of course they want to increase this by voting against the new legislation which might limit family reunification and more Liberal voters.
  65. E. Biggs from Canada writes: Cooler heads The answer to your question is quite simple.

    - smarts, in that they figured out how to make money legally
    - guts, in that they determined to risk their money on their ideas
    - actions, they actually did what they figured out.

    I was in the working poor in the retail business many years ago until I also sat down and did some serious thinking about what I was going to do about it.

    I quit my job, left friends and family and moved across the country I had one suitcase, a portable radio a few clothes and $45 in my pocket (that was money in those days). I turned down a couple of jobs until I was successful in the right job. When I came here I knew nobody in the entire Province, but I knew it was the only way for me.

    Worked hard, saved and investied, got married bought a house (small one), bought a car (cheap one). I worked for 35 years, made some dollars in the stock market and real estate and retired.

    I am what some people call wealthy and spent my winters in the States playing golf and enjoying life.

    I strongly believe it can also be done today and am watching some immigrants and others doing it, similar to what I did.
  66. brokeback mountain from toronto, Canada writes: well, explain to me then why the beggars on the street is asking for change to buy Starbucks coffee instead of real food?
    Is working hard so one can get paid more a sin now?
  67. Jeremy Fewster from Montreal, Canada writes: I think free trade has hurt working class families in both Canada and the US. The ease with which capital and factories can relocate has really hurt provinces like Ont. and QC - 20-30 years ago unionized factory work that paid a livable wage was available - so many of those jobs have been moved, and have been replaced by minimum wage service industry jobs (wall-mart, the gap, mail-room workers etc) that it's not surprising to see stories like this in the G&M. These trade agreements (or investor rights agreements) have seriously eroded the gains made by our forefathers, who struggled for the right to earn a decent wage. Anyone who works 8 hours a day should be able to afford to provide for themselves and their families - this is becoming less and less common.
  68. Paul Collins from Canada writes: This story should not be such a shock. Everyone in their 20's, 30's, or even 40's, know at least one person who who has slipped through the cracks and don't even register on the census radar. The longer we ignore this, the worse it will get. Look at the land prices out there. In the US, land prices have collasped. The US has a population of 250 million and the land is cheaper. We in Canada, have a population of 30 million and it is more expensive. Why is our real estate market so out of sync with the US prices? The Canadian land prices are inflated. That is just one example of what is wrong. I feel the babyboom generation started out with noble principles but have since been degenerated. The babyboom generation is the most greediest, selfish generation in recent history. They monopolize the land, the resources, and the monetary system and they treat the next generation like it is a security threat. If they cry about not having a pension when they retire, let them all eat dog food.
    http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Everymans-Way-Paul-Collins/dp/1605301183/ref=pdbbssr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209653032&sr=1-1
  69. Imperial K from Toronto, Canada writes: J L from Toronto, well yes that's fine....but my investments I was told to make are moving at a snails pace. ANother wondeful lie from the banks.

    Oh and don't be surprised if payout time for all thos RRSP's that were so popular isn't quite what they promised 30 years ago. Prediction, something will hit all those investments too, and you'll get something, but NOTHING like you thought.

    I would suggest the removal of credit card industry from many people's lives. It serves no purpose and honestly, who gets mugged anymore? I use cash for everything, untraceable and always usable by anyone.

    Also, we lie to people, push them that they must live a good life no matter what. And when that college/university degree doesn't deliver anything, they still want to feel part of the system...and borrow.

    Like late night burger advertisement, it's all to make someone rich, and you fat.

    Truthfully, if you want to do better? Teach the poor/anyone to be cold heartless and bloodthirsty. Care for nothing and no one, and I guarantee you will live a better life. Step over, not around others, and crush anyone that opposes you. And again I guarantee you will better off...if not rich!

    Now I'm not rich, and I don't do the above, but yes...if you do the above, and throw any morals and ethics away...you can be rich too.

    This does not mean all rich are like that, not at all. But it does make it easier. This world does not reward good, evil is the fast track to wealth.
  70. K W from Canada writes: I can't believe few of the posters here are racists and discriminatory against immigrants. Without immigrants, who is going to work at the Tim Hortons and other low paying jobs that no other Canadians like yourself want?
    I have seen a lot of Canadians on welfare and what do think about them?
  71. Michael Tripper from Canada writes: Jeremy Fewster from Montreal, Canada writes
    correct my friend correct

    looking for work

    www.michaeltripper.com

    now
  72. bob london from Canada writes: Picture should be of your 'fat' boomer government worker on the left and with graduates, small business owners, and bluecoller people on the right
  73. Brenton E. from Canada writes: I am amazed and more than a little ashamed, an article on social/economical conditions becomes a platform to beat the snot out of new Canadians.
  74. Rick C from Canada writes: Imagine that. In a specialized society like Canada new immigrants with lower education levels don't do as well.

    Who cares? They are still better off than where they came from and in general their kids do well.

    Prosperity is not given to you; it's earned and most often dictated by the choices and sacrifices you make.
  75. Jeremy Fewster from Montreal, Canada writes: brokeback mountain: Shouldn't we distinguish between beggars and those who work (sometimes more than 1 job) but who still cannot make ends meet? There are so many socially necessary jobs out there that are terribly paid - doesn't somebody need to do them, without the added humiliation of condecending attitudes hurled down from olympian heights of our 'monied' classes? I admit, some people are lazy - but I personally know children of rich families who piss away their education, spend idle years abroad, only to finally sink comfortably into some well paid position at Daddy's office - Sloth knows no class boundaries. Cheers
  76. Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: The other thing that people are failing to realize is that a family on welfare living six to a tiny 2 bedroom apartment today have a better quality of living than a fairly affluent family did in the fifties. They have heating, they have better food quality and availability, they have better social support, they have better health care and it's more available, they have better education, they have television, a microwave, even a car.

    It's not that poor people in Canada live horrible lives, it's just a lot different from the rich. It's still damned good, we just can't see the forrest for the trees anymore unless we're driving a BMW and parking it in front a 5000 square foot home.
  77. jay bow from ny, United States writes: this is similiar in all countries. most immigrants see the long term trade off...then give their kids a great opportunity...the one they never seem to have wherever they are from. its a great story....immigrant parents working 2/3 jobs to give their kids an opportunity...lots have capitalized on this opportunity.
    its unfortunate the laziness some westerners born in these countries asking for handouts - given all the opportunity and wasting it
  78. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Andre Carrel from Salmo: Here here.

    As long as we maintain a system that can cast the votes of millions to the wind giving them no representation in the house of commons then we don't have a democracy, but a representative dictatorship.

    In fact it has become clear that the first past the post system encourages regional parties far more than national ones, which is ironic.

    The BLOC received 1.5 million votes last election and won 51 seats.
    The NDP received 2.6 million votes and won a mere 29 seats.
    The Greens received nearly 700 thousand votes and has not one seat.

    Combined they have nearly 5 million votes and 80 seats.

    Meanwhile the government of Canada's 5.3 million votes has rewarded it 124 seats and the LPC's 4.5 million votes rewarded it 103 seats.

    Frankly I think proportional representation is past due.
  79. Joe Technicality from Hamilton, Canada writes: I hope everybody knows how darn difficult it is for a new immigrant to get a work permit in this country. As a Canadian employer, I'm extremely unimpressed with the narrow scope of 'eligible positions' the government considers to be a 'real job'.

    I work for a very large, very reputable, very stable, publicly traded national firm which pays people on a fee for service structure. Given that it isn't a 'salary' structure, the government precludes our frontline role as an eligible position.

    Smarten up, civil servants. We're not all paid like you, nor do we want to be.
  80. anonymous contributor from Canada writes: i'm amazed that most think this is NOT about you!
    50 yrs. ago - husband worked, earning enough to buy a home, buy a car, pay the bills, raise the kids, pay for their educ. and clothes, etc, etc.

    currently: everyone HAS to work. sometimes one is working two jobs and the family is up to their ears in debt.

    progress...........................?
  81. Mike Toronto from Canada writes: I think there is a grain of truth in the fact that people should but do not always take responsibility for their own actions. There is, however, also more than a grain of truth in the fact that there are structural factors that really hinder people from moving up the SES ladder. I do believe that people need an incentive to work. I sure as hell don't like getting up in the mornings and if someone gave me a regular paycheque I'd probably slip into lethargy pretty quickly. That's not to say that I'm lazy - I have an earned Ph.D. in my field and work hard in my profession - it's simply to say that people generally seem to work on contingency. Life makes sense when people see that their actions lead to better outcomes. Unfortunately, for many of the poor, their actions do not lead to better outcomes. Sure, it's easy to sit back and critisize some for using high interest lenders but some people have to take a much shorter view. Would it be easy for anyone to say to their child that they can't go on a school trip because payday is 3 days away? How about those who work for employment agencies who put in a full day's hard labour and get minimum wage while the referral agency gets the same amount? Poverty isn't just about money, it's about hopelessness. Converesely, it's pretty hard for the rich to lose their wealth. Give an investment banker 5 million bucks and I'm sure he/she will get you a great rate of return that will let you live off your investment. A friend of mine wisely said that a fair society is one in which the poor have a reasonable chance of getting rich through hard work and the rich have a reasonable chance of becoming poor through laziness. The former may be true for those willing to work hard and who have some good luck. The latter rarely is. Many in the middle class seems willing to abandon the poor because the middle class are working incredibly hard and not significantly improving their lot. The truth is that
  82. Rick C from Canada writes: Mark Orr from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'I actually offered to buy a 'starving' pan handler a hot dog once...but unsurprisingly he was only taking cash.....'

    I too never give money to panhandlers.

    In the past I have offered to buy them a sub or a meal of some sort.

    Not one panhandler has ever taken me up on that offer; they just want money to get drunk.

    So now I just nip it in the bud. If I am being approached I interject and ask them if they have change to break a $20.
  83. Unknown Philosopher from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Keep on burying your head in books.

    I don't watch movies unless forced to, but I guess you've lived everywhere on the planet for the past 6,000 years and are able to understand and pass judgement on everything you see without picking up a book and learning something other than Socrates, Athenian history, Toynbee, or the Qu'ran. This is astounding. To understand what you see in the streets you have to understand how it got that way, and not just through the narrow field of factual history dominated more recently by resentment studies headed by leaders of the resentment movements yours.
    You're mind is trapped in the simplification of history which you demonstrate day in day out. This is understandable for a busniess grad. All you do is demonstrate the trouble with a cheap specialized education that you never stop paying for.
  84. whatevah D from Canada writes: I'm with anonymous contributor. I find this fact most poignant:

    On average, salaries haven't changed much over the past quarter century. Median earnings of Canadians who work full time edged to $41,401 in 2005 from $41,348 in 1980, measured in constant dollars.
  85. J L from Toronto, Canada writes: Imperial K writes 'Now I'm not rich'

    - EXACTLY, so quite frankly you probably don't know crap about what you are talking about...

    My family came to this country with nothing and we are fortunate enough, through hardwork and some (not much) brainpower, to be financially and morally wealthy...it is very easy and possible for most people is our society to achieve the same.
  86. jay bow from ny, United States writes: anonymous contributor - thats because over the past 50yrs governments have taxed and spent all the surplus...the size of govenrment has grown by leaps and bounds off the tax dolars...forcing people to work
  87. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: P Martin from St. John's, Canada writes: 'A good number of people in Canada making more than 100K are from the government - at both levels. It would not surprise me if they were the majority. Government is the main reason for the discrepancy between the wealthy and the poor in Canada.'

    Less than 10% of the civil service makes that kind of money.

    If you think 0.03% of the population is the reason for 'the discrepancy between the wealthy and the poor' then you need a serious dose of reality.

    At a time when equivalent management positions in the private sector make many 3 to 4 times as much I have to wonder where your head is at.

    The quality of the civil service is dependent on competent managers, and at this point attracting applicants has become an exercise in futility.

    Oh but I'm sure you'll be the first to complain when the government fails to respond to your needs eh?
  88. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Morning to every one. There is nothing new here except that there are plenty in Ottawa and poor provinces like Ontario the rulers continue to deny the existence of poverty. Canada need to accept the fact there are plenty of people who are living below poverty line and the governments should look into the ways correcting this ever growing mess. No point in boasting as the best amongst G7. Most of the immigrants coming from countries like India have given up much better life style to come here. Only benefit they have received so far is cleaner living standards and nothing beyond that. No dirt, no poluted air etc. Some smart ones receive low income housing, welfare and medicals and produce babies without any control because there is plenty to benefit from that. Most people I spoke to have no interest in these facilities and these are meant for those who come here for these benefits and the Liberals knew well about that. Most educated immigrants would like to have better life standards but is it a posibility ? Can they ever get employed without having to go to school here ? Major hurdle here is soon as one lands bills start pouring in and one is forced to look for a job to pay the bills. Job security is another major problem and in order to be able to pay the bills people are forced to work in gas stations and as security guards for $ 10 per hour. Therefore there is a huge drop in immigrants coming from India. My understanding is that more than 80% applications in India were withdrawn by applicants and the rest includes major chunk from people of Punjab. Most of the immigrants we get are from countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan besides troubled spots like Somalia, Sri Lanka, Iraq and Afganistan. Perhaps the first step to correct this problem is to stop immigration for the time being and look into the ways of correcting the system in order to ensure quality immigrants.
  89. anonymous contributor from Canada writes: jay bow - pleade read post from whatevah d @ 11:02
  90. Mr. Pragmatic from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed.

    Herman Melville
    novelist & sailor (1819 - 1891)
  91. Carly MacKay from United States writes: 'Highly educated, highly skilled' from a developing country can be quite different than 'highly educated, highly skilled' by western standards. It seems that many posters complain about immigrants from third world countries who were doctors in their countries driving cabs here. They have to pass certain exams in order to be licensed and have to present transcripts from accredited colleges and/or universities. There are many foreign doctors in the area I live in. My daughters pedi-neurologist is from Pakistan. My neighbors oncologist is from Thailand. If I pick up the phone book and look under physicians, there are a lot of foreign doctors listed. I too have run into foreign 'doctors' working in convenience stores and working as janitors. The way I look at it is just maybe they were unable to pass the medical boards or the universities they attended had medical programs that were comparable to 'Medicine for Dummies' guides. So be very careful before insisting that foreign medical workers be fast tracked through the immigration system. The good ones will make it through. As far as other immigrants not earning acceptable wages - I went to Dunkin Donuts to get a coffee the other day. The employee waiting on me could not speak a word of English, I asked another employee for a medium coffee black and she handed me a black pen. You can't expect to get a good job unless you speak the national language of the country you are immigrating to. There are many, many immigrants (legal and illegal) coming to the USA. Unfortunately most of them are uneducated and unskilled. They take the minimum wage jobs. As long as we have such a large pool of people willing to work for so little, wages for the lower class will not increase. Many people say immigrants are willing to do jobs no one else wants to do. . .I think it is more like they take jobs others can't afford to take and still get by.
  92. Steve Gibbons from Calgary, Canada writes: Rick C, 'I ask them can they break a $20', why would do that to someone who probably has a addiction and is down on their luck? You kick them when they're down, what a big man you are. You digust me. At least there's some decent compassionate people left in this country that will help their fellow man.
  93. J Hare from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Ah, the milk of human kindness is alive and well on the board today. It is interesting that the number of 'nodes' of belief get knocked back and forth in this discussion without actually being discussed. These are for both the left and right though personally I think these distinctions are a little irrelevent. Ok, first, there are many reasons one could be poor just as there could be many reasons one could be rich. These reasons just form a blank for one to fill in to suite ones ideas about society (is it fair or unfair). First, I think this is a bit of a red herring and deciding this is a fools task. People will be poor, but how poor we as Canadians will allow is essentially a moral question with political results. Then there is the two competing, and flawed narratives of sucess though personal fortitude and faliure from social pressure. Both ignore the fact that a whole range of factors affect an individual so to point to one aspect as the 'cause' of x,y,z simply diminishes other aspect of an individual to glorify or demonize one aspect. Next the seeking of scapegoats to explain the current problem in simplistic terms is silly. Yes, immigration is probably a contributing factor but how big a factor still needs to be determined, the same goes for global trade, easy to point the finger at but it is important to remember that when you point a finger, three more point back at you. Lastly, using both ancedotal evidence and drawing on historical examples can not answer the questions posed by the here and now for two reasons. The first is the factors that contributed to an event in the past will have changed so by doing similar things now will probably have different results, second relying of ancedotal evidence is like seeing the outside of a house by looking out one of its windows. Those are my thoughts regarding this discussion. James Hare
  94. Rick C from Canada writes: anonymous contributor from Canada writes:

    'currently: everyone HAS to work. sometimes one is working two jobs and the family is up to their ears in debt.'

    Not true at all. Currently more families go the two income route but in many cases it is to be able to afford more stuff. Two vehicles, exotic vacations, designer name clothes, iPods, 2 laptops, stainless steel appliances and of course everyone HAS to have granite countertops. God only knows how we survived before granite countertops.

    There are still a lot of single income families at my place of work. In fact for those over 35 it's the norm not the exception.

    I fully appreciate there are some who require a hand up. However many Canadians who claim to be poor or just barely able to hang on are in that predicament because they have no money management skills and live beyond their means.

    The availability of cheap credit has skewed the perception of many as to what they can afford and the lifestyle they can lead.
  95. Steve Not an Alberta Redneck from Calgary, Canada writes: Yesterday it was 'Bullies Assaulting with Peanut Butter' and today, its the gap between the 'rich' and 'poor' widening. Education is the route out of this problem but until we vanquish the bullies, our educational system will remain disfunctional and jobs will slip away to places where the workforce is more 'cost effective'. Our schools need to be an oasis for learning and the sooner we remove or reform the disruptive elements, the sooner we will see improvements on the economic front.
  96. Beyazet Ilderim from Canada writes: Ricky for a Centrist Canada from Canada writes:
    I see the Con trolls are out in full force with their stereotypes again.

    Poor = lazy.

    How comforting that must be for you.

    Idiots.

    I did come to Canada some 28 years ago. A family of 4 with young kids and $400 cash after 10 years of work in one of the worker paradises (Eastern Europe). No English and no friends to start with. My family made it good; my kids are now serious taxpayers and have kids on their own. It took me some time but I am in the first 10% income group and I am an employee... I also saved enough for a decent retirement. The Canadian system gives everybody a great opportunity for fulfilment. Not much can be done about the one who does not take the opportunity. In my personal opinion the homeless people have a problem which can be addiction, mental illness of some sort, and eventually laziness. I did not notice any new immigrant being homeless. And BTW Ricky above, by his writing proves that he is a politically correct idiot.
  97. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    'The BLOC received 1.5 million votes last election and won 51 seats.
    The NDP received 2.6 million votes and won a mere 29 seats.
    The Greens received nearly 700 thousand votes and has not one seat.'

    The Bloc only ran candidates in 75 ridings while NDP presumably ran candidates in all 308 ridings. On a per riding basis the Bloc got 20,000 votes per riding, NDP 8400, very few of which were in Quebec.
  98. David E from Canada writes: Mr. Pragmatic, brilliant quote. That pretty much sums up this entire conversation thus far.
  99. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: What is the point of debating? The crucial thing is that more and more money gets siphoned out of the economy and into the pockets of the ultra-rich so they can speculate and they and their famililies can live off of interest and dividends. Which is the case.

    So you either:
    1) accept this and become cynical and resentful (the 'apathetic' You-can't change-the-system position)
    2) accept this and collude with those at the top in the hopes of bettering your own position, if only incrementally (the 'conservative' You-get-what-you-deserve position)
    3) deny this and collude with those at the top in the hopes of bettering your own position, if only incrementally (the 'right' The-poor-are-a bunch-of-animals-to-be-exploited/it's-a-man's-world position)
    4) challenge the status quo in the hopes of introducing some reason and justice into a social disparity that is not only unjust, but ultimately unsustainable and dangerous (the 'socialist/left' The-rich-are-oppressing-the-poor position)
    5) accept this because you're already one of the ultra rich and it directly benefits you (the 'I'm rich as hell and getting richer every day' position)

    So, pick a number. It's worth noting that nobody who posts in these forums is a #5.
  100. anonymous contributor from Canada writes: steve gibbons from calgary - top of the posts!

    too many just revel in their 'put down' of somebody who's already down.

    seize the day.
  101. Raymond Durrani from Ajax, Canada writes: So Everyone:

    We have 308 MPs earning almost $200K a year - that includes basic pay of $150K plus sitting on committees (formed to pay themselves more money) plus - tax free part of the salary - free ride everywhere. That is not it - they also get $500K (half a million) to pay for their Hill office and constituency office - they are living a high life. They give themselves a raise by voting in the commons - who is going to vote against it - does someone ever thought of it.

    Same goes for all these Directors with the Provincial and Federal Governments - average salary now over $165K plus bonus - 70% pension, figure that out.

    Why can not a salary be decided by the voters - instead of giving these all elected people the right to give themselves a raise - most of them are Fakers anyway. Waite when the Oil and Food prices hit further - god knows what will happens to all of us - the Poors?
  102. J Hare from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Harry Potter, I think your post is reasonable. I would just like to ask were the stats were comming from? I'm just currious. I would also like to raise a different question; does immigrants include refugees? Are they bundled together under the stats or are they seperated? If I have time I'll look at stats can. Basically, refugees are vastly different from immigrants in my opinion, one is pushed (usually with a hot poker) while the other is pulled by the options thought avaliable.

    My thoughts and questions.

    James Hare
  103. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Unknown Philosopher: Hi

    Your most recent comments on my posts are acknowledged.

    I am an scientist/engineer/businessman. My domain is this terra firma. I post under my own name.

    As your moniker states you are unknown, and a philosopher, and live in the world of ideas, mostly of your own making I suppose.

    Enjoy your world as I am enjoying my own.

    Cheers
  104. Wilma De Bruyn from Toronto, Canada writes: Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: Oh Lord! It's Wilma, my favourite poster. Wilma the socialist. She got her CPP disability cheque yesterday and was able to get the internet turned back on for another month so she could spread her commie rhetoric.
    Posted 01/05/08 at 10:10 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    Well at least you turned your computor on to read the comments. Shrude, sorry to disappoint you it's not a disability cheque. And by the way you must be a lawyer or you do not like like hearing the truth. And by the way I posted before the end of the month Dwide.
    It seems I may hit a nerve somewhere eh???

    Also, I guess you don't read much, remember Enron, Black, Sponsorship Scandal, etc., etc.,

    As far as a commie comment goes, you better take your meds, I think
    your a little off today.
  105. hossein hajiagha from Victoria, Canada writes: Is not a problems with immigrant , which they create large TAX, Is not a problems because some people like to be homeless, Homeless is social problems, back to divorced drugs and drinking problems..... The biggest problems in Canada far as I know a kind of the government we have , 8 years a government standing in power is so long? we should have better system and vote to change British TAX to some things new and smart? Here and why spending over $4 Billion dolor for winter Olympic in BC home of the largest poor and homeless in any modern country? $4 billion- to 3/5 million canadian in BC=?????how much I should get from this money and how much I lose right know? How much Canada can make from this winter Olympic ??? $* billion dollars after this Olympic finished.....no they are loser bureaucracy in Canada is worst as any things we should stop this and have government to became responsible for what they are doing with are money, sending 3 duck by private Jet? million of then are killed in farming and hunting any one care? 30,000 children die every day because of hunger or...poor...in world Is capitalism, is creation, is not to have justice system, watch are government? It's nothings rung with you or me or immigrant or poor people
  106. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: Are some of you suggesting that Ontario has more 'civil servant jobs'? For example posters here are equateing, it seems to me, civil servant jobs to $100,000 annual incomes with good pensions after say age 55. So if this is the case, all this 'disposablle wealth'; why is Ontario going from a Have to a Have Not Provincial status, and ready to receive federal equalization payments? Can someone please explant that to me. I mean $100,000 salary a year appears to me a great deal of money.
  107. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Re: Education and Skills

    Education lasts a lifetime.

    All skills, irrespective of profession, are out of date in 3 years.

    Re-training, continuous improvement, or bust.
  108. Rick C from Canada writes: Steve Gibbons from Calgary, Canada writes: 'why would do that to someone who probably has a addiction and is down on their luck? You kick them when they're down, what a big man you are. You digust me. At least there's some decent compassionate people left in this country that will help their fellow man.' Steve spare me your drivel. For years instead of cash I offered EVERY panhandler who approached me a dinner. Not just a $1 cheeseburger but a full meal. NOT 1 OF THOSE SUPPOSED DOWN ON THEIR LUCK BUMS TOOK ME UP ON MY OFFER. I've made that offer to hundreds if not close to 1000 beggars; even when I was a dirt poor university student eating Ichiban for a week straight. They all just wanted cash to go get drunk or high. In fact some of them got mad that I wouldn't just give them cash instead of offering buying them dinner. My response to that is fcuk you...I work for my money. I don't get out of bed every morning and go to work so some bum can get drunk or high. Addiction results from choices they made; I empathize but I don't sympathize with that. So to nip it in the bud I now take a different approach.
  109. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: During Trudeau's last full year as PM (1983) Canada brought in 88,000 immigrants. Until Mulroney got in, immigration was very carefully adjusted up or down each year according to economic and employment conditions in Canada. In 1985, Mulroney decided to change that, and set a target of 1% of the population per year, regardless of need. Immigration swelled to over 200,000. Also in 1985, the Singh decision was handed down by the Supreme Court, effectively stripping immigration officials of their main responsibility - that of refusing entry to those who obviously lie about their status. The result has been predictable. Even during the severe recession years of the early 1990s, and the slow-growth mid-1990s, immigration rates remained at over 200,000 per year - WAY over what Canada's employment market could absorb. And today we express dismay that the gap between rich and poor is expanding? How could it have done anything else? And before someone accuses me of 'blaming immigrants', I blame them for nothing. I blame the poor immigration policies of successive governments (starting with Mulroney, continuing through the Chretien/Martin years, and the Harper government as well) for this problem. No one, NO ONE, has the guts to point out the obvious - immigration is supposed to serve the country, not the other way around. There is no question that Canada needs immigration. We do. We need plenty of them. But there is absolutely NO SENSE in mindlessly keeping the number at over 200,000 per year, regardless of economic growth, regardless of labour market needs, regardless of whether they have the skills we need, regardless of whether we even recognize their skills if they DO have them. The rate NEVER should have been so high from 1990 - 1997, when economic growth and job creation languished. Such an influx wasn't fair to Canada, and it wasn't fair to immigrants.
  110. Jeremy Fewster from Montreal, Canada writes: J Hare: Just a point regarding your criticism of ancedotal evidence. While I definately agree that using ones personal experience as proof of some larger historical fact is specious (if taken in isolation), a thoughtful examination of a wide swath of peoples experiences (or trying to look through as many windows as possible) can, I believe, help us to understand the structural constraints and the excercise of agency that this issues raises. Also, history does change - you are right - but somethings do remain (depressingly) the same - the long duree, as Braudel put it. If history can be of no use, if peoples personal experiences are irrelevant, if attention to structural inequalities in the global economy tell us nothing, what kind tools would you propose we use to understand the growing gap between rich and poor?
  111. Mark Orr from Toronto, Canada writes: Cuban Cigar, I not about hating, so I don't hate you neither do I hate the pan handlers. I agree that any one or us could lose our minds and end up on the street, I never rule anything out, and I would never judge them. I've just decided I don't want pan handlers in my city, and have chosen to vote with my money. If I saw a starving man, I would give him food, and if I saw a thirsty man, I would give them water, but money is the root of all evil, so you are handing out evil. I suspect giving these people money does them more damage then good. It allows them to maintain their life on the fringes rather then forcing them to one of the many agencies that can do more then just keep them on the road to oblivion. You are paying for their drugs and alcohol and enabling them to follow their path to of self destruction. Think about that one.
  112. Leslie Tobias from Toronto, Canada writes: Why always the comparison between recent immigrants & Canadian Citizens. Immigrants receive more social assistance than any group in Canada. Immigrants without being Canadian citizens get government jobs. Canadian citizens cannot get government jobs. Make up your mind are you Immigrants or Canadian Citizens. Poverty will increase in Canada just like any country.

    Canada will suffer greatly, not as much as poorer nations. Our problems will be riots, racial riots. and economic riots.

    Then of course, we will blame the Americans. This issue is extremely
    important for ALL NATIONS, not just in Canada.
  113. a salajan from Canada writes: Don Bryant from Calgary, Canada writes: If, however, they're (immigrants) unhappy about it, they can always go back to where they came from.

    Don't we love this theme? Don't like the weather? Go back. Wanna wear burka? Go back. Can't speak unaccented english? Go back. OK with gay? Go back. Against troops in Afghanistan? Go back.

    Where should we send you Don when you are unhappy?
  114. scott thomas from Canada writes: The rich get richer and the poor get poorer because of tax cuts and of social service cuts. This is the society that we have purchased, and it is the convention among western democracies since the eighties. Child poverty at a time when Canada is the wealthiest in it's history. Hope you sleep well at night.

    And as for the misleading aspects of how statistics are presented, 16.4% increase of the richest one fifth is a lot more dollars than a 20.6 percent decrease for the poorest one fifth. We can easily afford to tax the top fifth a small amount to make a big difference to the bottom fifth.
  115. The comment section stinks from Canada writes: I'm sure the guy in the picture is begging for money though no fault of his own. It's not because he dropped out of school, or drinks too much. It's because some guy in a suit doesn't like the way he looks. Yep, it's everyones fault but his own. Where do I send a check? I want to help this hapless victim out.
  116. Antonio San from Canada writes: 'After-tax, the wealth disparity in Canada is narrower, simply because those with higher incomes have a higher tax rate.'
    Oh the sweet irony of misinformation! Only two lines and curiously NO statistics here, so here they are: 21% of those paying income tax support over 72% of the income tax burden! No mystery the disparity is narrower!!! Moreover it means that financially 1/5 Canadian is paying 3/4 of the benefits for the rest of Canadians! They should be exhultating with joy that Canadians making over $100,000 have doubled since 1980 because otherwise the 4/5 of Canadians would have to pay much higher taxes to get the same benefits! It's not what's written in the newspapers -always, always giving the impression that successful Canadians do not deserve their status- that is important here, it's the stats they keep conveniently off the news and replace them by some very vague two lines: 'After-tax, the wealth disparity in Canada is narrower, simply because those with higher incomes have a higher tax rate.' MANIPULATION!
  117. Bruce Gerrard from Toronto, Canada writes: Imperial K - That was just plain stupid. Keep in mind that it is people that work hard and make a lot of money that are paying for the majority of our social programs and not it is not proportianate. Please also keep in mind that the people who work hard and make a lot of money are also the ones that are contributing the most to Hospitals and Charities and other Public institutions taht without 'Private' funding would not exist. I am always amazed and somewhat saddened that it has become a Canadian trait to admonish and look down on people who are succesful like they some how do not deserve credit for their hard work. The GREAT CHASM in this country s between the people who work hard and those that do not. The other day I walked by a guy sitting on the street begging for money. On the other side of the sidewalk was a Tim Hortons with a sign on the door saying HELP WANTED. Now maybe the guy couldn't read, but you have to wonder. There are signs for Help Wanted all over the area yet people continue to sit with their hand out, because they know they can. Articles like this and the propoganda of the CBC and other Left Wing institutions has ensured that we have set up a system of empathy that allow thos to perpetuate our welfare state. What's worse, is that articles like this, continue to promote a feeling of sympathy for those in our society who choose to do nothing. Instead of making excuses why are we not pushing people to look for solutions. Sitting with your hands out (see Dalton Mcguinty) is nothing more than a misguided and temporary solution. What's the old saying? 'teach man to fish......?'
  118. Raymond Durrani from Ajax, Canada writes: My wife worked and contributed to the Canada Pension for almost 35 years. She turned 60 last month. She applied for benefit and rec'd a letter from the respective department - are you ready - that her benefit is will be $372. per month. Why and how. It is because government formed a Pension Board to invest ( give our money to the stock market - where no accountability is even thought off. Who gets on the board - friends of the political brass.

    It is same is appointing Ambassadors around the world - have heard of our Ambassador to Afghanistan. Can my wife live on $372 a month - she is poor - so what one poor plus one poooor makes - two poooors. Figure that out?
  119. E. Biggs from Canada writes: Bayazet Well said.

    Amongst the poor there will be a percentage of those who cannot help themselves but the bulk sure can and should.

    To some extent I blame the education system as they need to concentrate on finances, entrepeneurship, taught by people who have made it not some 20 year old kid from a left wing school who has no real clue on what it takes to be successful. Lived with Daddy, went to school and now is an expert on life and success. Ya right.

    Haul these people off the street and make them take a course on successful living. Ya right This is Canada will never happen, then wallow in your porverty and enjoy it. FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY.
  120. Concerned Canadian from Canada writes: David Simon from Canada writes: 1/ One reason immigrants make very little money when they come to Canada is because officials in Canadian consulates abroad make it seem like Canada has lots and lots of jobs everywhere. They are Liberals and want immigrants to come and vote Liberal.
    ----------------------------------

    Painting liberals on everything related to immigration does not buy much.

    As an immigrant to Canada, I have always found the needed job that not only pays well but also uses my skillsets. Thank you.
  121. Prairie Boy from Canada writes: Let me see if I have this right. We let in people that flush their passports and we rely on them to report their income to the government on an honour system. Then we use those statistics to give them programs because they are not doing well. Lord we are stupid. I watched an old immigrant lady fill a bag with bundles of US currency out of a safety deposit box. I'm sure it was all declared before it went into a safety deposit box cause it pays a healthy return while sitting in cash. There are a number of immigrants that tell the government nothing.
  122. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    We need to abandon Democracy, and seek a better system.

    Well I'm convinced.

    Let's see, we can choose from medieval feudalism, perhaps a Swaziland-style absolute monarchy, the fun 'n' games of Soviet communism.

    Of course what you really mean, Syed, is that we should all embrace Islam. We know you think this. You don't have to keep repeating it. You're not going to get converts to Islam by posting on the Globe's message boards.

    I think the fact that every global system to date has produced more misery, squalor, pain and suffering than democracy ought to tell us that Churchill was right.
  123. Wilma De Bruyn from Toronto, Canada writes: hossein hajiagha from Victoria, Canada writes: Is not a problems with immigrant , which they create large TAX, Is not a problems because some people like to be homeless, Homeless is social problems, back to divorced drugs and drinking problems..... The biggest problems in Canada far as I know a kind of the government we have , 8 years a government standing in power is so long? we should have better system and vote to change British TAX to some things new and smart? Here and why spending over $4 Billion dolor for winter Olympic in BC home of the largest poor and homeless in any modern country? $4 billion- to 3/5 million canadian in BC=?????how much I should get from this money and how much I lose right know? How much Canada can make from this winter Olympic ??? $* billion dollars after this Olympic finished.....no they are loser bureaucracy in Canada is worst as any things we should stop this and have government to became responsible for what they are doing with are money, sending 3 duck by private Jet? million of then are killed in farming and hunting any one care? 30,000 children die every day because of hunger or...poor...in world Is capitalism, is creation, is not to have justice system, watch are government? It's nothings rung with you or me or immigrant or poor people Posted 01/05/08 at 11:27 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment Your absolutey correct with your comments: See web: (www.antechips.com) and Rule by Secrecy by Jim Marrs (book), those are the real rulers of world economies and wars. But most canadians like to put their head in the sand with their rear ends toward the sky.Or the other choice is plugged into entertainment.
  124. Brian L from Canada writes: My educated guess is every time they do these surveys on relative incomes there will be a lowest one-fifth and a highest one-fifth and three-fifths more or less in the middle.

    And the lowest fifth will either grumble about the highest fifth or aspire to them. Which do you think is more constructive for those people?

    What these studies never show is that the population is dynamic. Those in the lowest income level 25 years ago are almost certainly not the same as today. Those who consider this a land of immense opportunity have managed to claw their way up the income ladder. Others, perhaps spoiled by their parents or their vices have fallen into slattern or sloth.

    Finally, much more interesting than the statistical diddling that Stats Can is prone to is the relative standard of living today compared to 25 years ago. How many now versus then have a stable diet, a roof over their heads, basic transportation? How many versus then have automobiles, own their homes and a color TV?
  125. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes : Today, if the engineer and his partner in 30s are not both working, they can not afford to buy a house. The children can wait until the couple is in late 30s, if at all. I agree with you on that but your logic on immigration is little off.

    Most immigrants now a days are mostly depending on the system and are working cash jobs and the tax payer is paying for their housing, welfare and child benefits. I know you will probably will disagree with me but I am absolutely sure about these facts. Lot of communities have learnt to abuse the system and there is plenty of guidance being given by certain community leaders. 90% of the occupants in government housing are immigrants.
  126. Antonio San from Canada writes: Ahhh the Globe and Mail headlines... meanwhile in the business section we learn that Thomson Reuters made an operating profit: Funny how the readers so concerned with Conrad Black are so muted and unconcerned when Thomson Reuters, CTV, Globemedia, BNN feed them the news... Funny how the gap between rich and poor elicit so many comments and dramatic headlines in the Globe but when the Thomson's stay at the top, no one complains... I guess there are the good, the bad and the ugly rich depending of who is in the news! It is not that Thomson makes money as my previous posts acknowledge the benefit of having successful Canadians, no, that's the hypocrosy whith which the Globe and Mail presents the facts and always keep their bosses off the hook of any criticism.
  127. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: J.C. Davies from Canada writes: '...The Bloc only ran candidates in 75 ridings while NDP presumably ran candidates in all 308 ridings. On a per riding basis the Bloc got 20,000 votes per riding, NDP 8400, very few of which were in Quebec...'

    Certainly, but it doesn't change the fact that the 4.9 million votes of the NDP, BLOC and Greens only resulted in 80 seats while the 4.5 million votes for the liberals resulted in 104 seats.

    The first past the post system works fine when there are two parties since it reflects the actual winner and gives them a majority government.

    With five parties FPTP skews so badly that a riding could technically be won with little more than 20% of the popular vote, which allows very small voting blocks all the say.

    If fact, if the Green and NDP were to suddenly gain a lot more support aginst the LPC and CPC, you could even see the BLOC form the government in a case where they won most of Quebec's 75 seats!
  128. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    'The first past the post system works fine when there are two parties since it reflects the actual winner and gives them a majority government.'

    Run-off elections would be better than PR. PR results in unstable governments.
  129. Brian L from Canada writes: The other thing that this survey does not show is the effect of social policy in magnifying income disparity.

    Those focused on the gap cry out that we need better social policy redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor.

    What the Robin Hoods or Jack Laytons fail to understand is that generous welfare and social programs do more to create disparity than almost any other factor; by paying people not to work.

    And spare me the downtrodden or mentally or physically impaired crap. The percentage of disabled in our society has declined in the past 25 years, largely due to better diets and health care.
  130. globefan Eh from Canada writes: Milos Gravity, the myth about hard work is exactly that. No one works harder than women in rice paddies of the world or persons in Canada who hold down three jobs , all at minum wage. The difference is something you don't seem to understand. The difference is post secondary education..

    Conrad Black worked hard, George Bush worked hard, ...sure.
  131. Wandering Willy from Victoria, Canada writes: Wow.....didn't know that there were income spreads in Canada. So you are saying we have poor people eh?
  132. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: In Canada most of the tax revenews are used for welfare, free housing and other such benefits and it is very popular amongst immigrants/refugees. Liberals created these benefits mainly to attract this class of immigrants in order to stay in power. As pointed out by Syed only 22% decided who will rule the province and majority of this 22% are immigrants who benefit from the system.
  133. D. B. from Canada writes: About one large segment of the (working) poor: Last night, I sat in on a session held by a small group of people, each with a family member who has a mental illness. One father spoke about his 35-year old schizophrenic daughter, who is doing okay, and on social assistance. He also spoke about his manic-depressive son who is doing okay, and on social assistance. One woman spoke about her psychotic son who is not doing so well and is on social assistance. Her husband committed suicide four years ago and it happens that 3 other members of her husband's family (siblings and cousins) have also committed suicide.
  134. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: The comment section stinks from Canada writes: '...I'm sure the guy in the picture is begging for money though no fault of his own. It's not because he dropped out of school, or drinks too much. It's because some guy in a suit doesn't like the way he looks. Yep, it's everyones fault but his own. Where do I send a check? I want to help this hapless victim out...'

    What about the old?
    The infirm?
    The disabled?
    The mentally ill?
    What about the fact that many are students, ie. future taxpayers?
    Immigrants starting a new life?

    What is it about any of these groups that justifies reducing their already paltry standard of living by over 20% while boosting the income of people already so rich that it doesn't even affect their spending habits?

    We can't hide behind this pathetic stereotyping forever.

    Right is right and this is just plain wrong.
  135. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: hossein hajiagha from Victoria, Canada writes: The biggest problems in Canada far as I know a kind of the government we have , 8 years a government standing in power is so long?

    Governmental terms do not run for 8 years in this country. If you mean the problem is with the incumbent party ever getting re-elected, then I'm not sure you understand democracy.

    Here and why spending over $4 Billion dolor for winter Olympic in BC home of the largest poor and homeless in any modern country?

    You think BC has the largest poor and homeless population of any modern country? I suggest you travel more. Like, a LOT more. BC is paradise compared to most of the world, including the Western world. Plus, BC also shelters the social problems of other provinces, since it is the only climactically livable province for those without solid shelter. Homelessness in BC is by no means a made-in-BC problem.
  136. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Brian L from Canada writes: My educated guess is every time they do these surveys on relative incomes there will be a lowest one-fifth and a highest one-fifth and three-fifths more or less in the middle.

    That's not the relavent point here. I think most people would easily accept zero growth in the lower percentiles as incentive to work harder.

    A loss of 20% purchasing power however is another thing entirely.
  137. Mr. Pragmatic from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm just wondering. Has anyone here ever spoken to a poor person?
  138. Terry F from Edmonton, Canada writes: Yes Syed. Generosity towards others unless you're an 'infidel', which will get you your head lopped off in about 2 minutes. No thanks. While some working poor may convert to Islam, those who are actually contributing to society have more important things to do than to have to bend over to Mecca 5 times a day. Cheers.
  139. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    B.C. Expat: Hi

    ' ... You're not going to get converts to Islam by posting on the Globe's message boards....'

    You are 99% right.

    The posters are more likely to be the 5-10% Demos, more interested in Democracy anyway. It is in their vested interest to status quo.

    It is the street that will convert to Islam.

    Moreover, Islam is not Christianity, where you are your brother's keeper. While the Christians go to heaven if they save someone else, Islam is individualist. You save yourself. Someone converting to Islam or not has no bearing on my own salvation.
  140. Andrew Toth from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: Have to have not, no one wants to help me out with this one? We are talking about Ontario, the Auto Pact Province, and nobody has any idea how it got from paying out dollars in equalization payments to receiving them? Thanks anyways, have a good day.
  141. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Terry F: Greetings

    ' ... While some working poor may convert to Islam, those who are actually contributing to society have more important things to do than to have to bend over to Mecca 5 times a day. Cheers. ..'

    In Mohammed's times the Infidel were the Big Business, Bankers, Trade Monopolists, and Judahists. The Believers were those who believed in Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed and the Abrahamic message.

    Keep on contributing. Remember what happened in the French Revolution when the Infidels told other to eat cake if they do not have bread.
  142. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: J.C. Davies from Canada writes: '...Run-off elections would be better than PR. PR results in unstable governments...'

    I don't believe that contention is substantiated by the evidence.

    Besides which, if 5% of the population votes for the Green party they should have a right to representation, regardless of whether it's inconvenient or not.

    Democracy is about governance by the people for the people.

    The system should be predicated on this first and foremost.
  143. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: This information supports the contention that our immigration policies are broken. We need to turn off the tap and shut the doors for a few years to sort it all out. I suspect the answer is to only let in people with targeted skills that we REALLY need and make sure they are able to begin work quickly. As well, we should try and attract people with money who won't require financial assistance. As for the rest, allowing them in solely to 'breed' is not working....its just increasing the numbers of poor and disenfranchised, its a drain on resources and its a national and internal security risk.

    Wake-up Ottawa!!!
  144. Raymond Durrani from Ajax, Canada writes: Sayed: Every time you write you keep on using the word 'Islam' which is irritating to read. Let me ask you a question: 'If Islam is so good in managing wealth then why all these Muslims, including you come to the west - non Islamic countries as per you?

    Please refrain from using religion in your writings. And further if you hate democracy so much what would you replace it with - Communism, Dictatorship or Fascist ideology
  145. Darren In TO from Toronto, Canada writes: As a recent immigrant I find this report to be retarded at best. I moved back here in Jan of 2000 after spending 10 of my adolescent years living abroad. I worked hard, and studied hard, and now I live the Canadian dream. I have a great job, with great pay and I own a home in one of the most desired areas of Toronto.
  146. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'The real reason is disappearance of high skilled jobs from Canada, and proliferation of Wal-Mart greeters and Tim Horten order takers.'

    --------------------

    Excellent point. This is what NAFTA and globalization have done for us - more jobs at lower wages.
  147. Gord Lewis from home?, Canada writes: Q: What is the definition of a Canadian?

    A: An immigrant with seniority.

    Abuse of immigrants is a time-honoured tradition in Canada, by both the population and by governments. (Although we reserve the worst crimes for the people who inconveniently occupied this land when we arrived.) It certainly does not jibe with the wonderfully rosy global good-guy image we have of ourselves (probably we are only good guys because we are not powerful enough to inflict the kind of damage our nearest neighbours are so good at).

    Aging boomers need young, energetic immigrants to finance the retirements they did not save for, after having it all their own way for 50 years.

    To the G&M moderators/censors: now would be an excellent time to round up and capture many of the regular trolls on these threads and finally BAN them. They add nothing to any debate, other than reinforcing to me how ridiculous, simplistic, and useless is the 'left-right' dichotomy that no one can seem to get away from. It is merely a useful diversionary strategy by our political and media elites to keep us thinking (or not, actually) in these terms.
  148. Antonio San from Canada writes: Mr pragmatic, although I do not give to panhandlers, I always greet them with a salute. Your point?
  149. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'The problem - Democracy, the Demos, the 5-10% monied males who rule over women, slaves, plebs, and helots.'

    ----------------------------

    Unlike most Muslim countries where 100% of the males rule over women, slaves, plebs and helots.....and either stone them to death, cut off their hands or behead them when they get out of line (and that does not even take into account female genital mutilation and many more ways thought up by the Islamic male elite to suppress their populations and maintain total control).

    Yeah, democracy is soooooo evilllll......ha!
  150. immolson Canadian from Scarbourough, Canada writes: The quality of recent immigrants speaks for itself. We have multiple families in one house, and MOST of familes rely on one single income and hand out from the governments thru welfares, child tax credit and foodbank. and 75 % of them have ended up in certain areas in GTA such as Scarborough, Brampton etc... 50 % of them accordingly to THEIR OWN STUDY are at risk of diabetes, high cholesteral and heart disease due to in-active lifestyle, unheathy diet and customs. This put a lot of stress on the already streched out heathcare systems in GTA. But the Liberal loves to have them migrated into the country since they are their solid vote base. That explains why their population were tripled during Mr. Chretien and Martin 's time. If there 's no change in our immigration laws, we would become minority in GTA in a short time.
  151. Uncle Elmer from Canada writes: Work as hard as you can. Make informed decisions. Live below your means. Take calculated risks and depend on yourself. Experience has shown that those in life who do these things end up well ahead of the game. Those who embrace victim culture, make excuses and seek handouts do not. Can't afford an education? Join the military. They will give you one for free. They'll also train you for any number of skilled positions. Don't want to do that? Don't want to finish high school? Don't want to follow the rules? Want free money to do your own thing? Too bad! Life doesn't work that way. As for the 'skilled' immigrants who can't find jobs...most of them cannot speak or write English at a primary school level, let alone at a professional level.
  152. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Gord Lewis from home?, Canada writes: 'To the G&M moderators/censors: now would be an excellent time to round up and capture many of the regular trolls on these threads and finally BAN them.'

    -------------------

    Yeah! To heck with freedom of speech - ban everyone that disagrees with Gord Lewis....then he can hang out here and talk to himself!
  153. Gary Thomson from Surrey, BC, Canada writes: Gee, my reasoned comments on the mega-rich families and their co-opted allies, the managing class, didn't make the cut.
  154. Rick C from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'But now that you have broached the subject, Islam in the trade era will be what Christianity was in the agrarian era - a system that has a place for the poor whereas Corporate Capitalist Democracy does not.' Sorry Syed but converting to Islam isn't going to do anything for the poor except give them calluses on their knees. You also seem to be confused thinking capitlism = democracy. One is a political system; the other economic. To let you in on a little secret...it's 2008 not 200 BC. What occured durign Mohammed's time is irrelevant. That is of course ignoring the fact that to claim anyone accurately knows what happened 2000 years ago based on books translated from dead languages by people who were biased is ridiculous.
  155. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For Andrew Toth: 'Have to have not, no one wants to help me out with this one? We are talking about Ontario, the Auto Pact Province, and nobody has any idea how it got from paying out dollars in equalization payments to receiving them?'

    If you really wanted to know, all you'd have to do is look it up.

    The formula for equalization has changed in recent years. The calculation now includes all provinces when it used to only include (if memory serves) five. That, in combination with booming resource prices has skewed the numbers to the point where provinces like Alberta has pushed the baseline dramatically higher.

    The net result? While Ontario's economy may not be growing right now, the reason it is becoming a have-not province is because the cutoff line went from way below them to being way above them. Ontario didn't move. The line did. If you don't believe me, look it up. TD Bank posts a pretty simple explanation on their website for those who bother to look.

    Now you have the facts. So what are you going to DO with them?
  156. Nestor C from Canada writes: @ a salajan from Canada who writes: Don't we love this theme? Don't like the weather? Go back. Wanna wear burka? Go back. Can't speak unaccented english? Go back. OK with gay? Go back. Against troops in Afghanistan? Go back.

    Here is another spin on your theme:

    Don't like the weather; go back you should have known
    Wanna wear a burka, no problem; wanna wear a burka while voting thereby changing the long standing electorate rules...go back

    Don't want to learn english or want someone else to pay for you to learn....go back

    The moral of the story here isn't 'we don't want you...go back....it is really ' you don't want to embrace Canada as is...go back' Nothing wrong in expecting our new Canadian citizens to like the country they profess to love enough to live in...warts and all....
  157. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Raymond Durrani: Greetings

    'If Islam is so good in managing wealth then why all these Muslims, including you come to the west - non Islamic countries as per you?..'

    What has Islam to do with a country, a nation, a region? Do you know what Islam is?

    Islam is a religion of the Individual (as Christianity was for the Family and Judahism for the Tribe).

    You are using a Judahist-like yardstick to measure the Muslims.

    A Muslim maximized his chances at survival, growth, and evolution wherever he/she is, whether it is in 'Muslim' countries or in 'Non-Muslim' countries.

    Canada is not 'Non-Muslim'. States do not have religion. Canada, like other 'nations' is a nationalist construct, not a religious one. Its origins are in agricultre. In tomorrow's global world Canada as a nation will be meaningless.

    Judge a Muslim by comparing him/her to the neighbors whether he/she gets more bang for the buck.
  158. whatevah D from Canada writes: Rick C from Canada writes: anonymous contributor from Canada writes:

    'currently: everyone HAS to work. sometimes one is working two jobs and the family is up to their ears in debt.'

    Not true at all. Currently more families go the two income route but in many cases it is to be able to afford more stuff. Two vehicles, exotic vacations, designer name clothes, iPods, 2 laptops, stainless steel appliances and of course everyone HAS to have granite countertops. God only knows how we survived before granite countertops.

    There are still a lot of single income families at my place of work. In fact for those over 35 it's the norm not the exception.

    Rick C: where do you live? I'm not living any better than my parents at my age; in fact I have much less. The numbers speak for themselves. inflation has gone up but our salaries have stayed the same. In my family, I have none of the things you talk about (save for cheap $2000 granite counters). I drive a Civic that was paid off almost two years ago and live in a 900 sq foot house I paid in the 250's for. We need two incomes to support our unaffordable lifestyle.

    cheers.
  159. Rob Bairos from Toronto, Canada writes: Have things really gotten that much worse? In the late 60's my parents arrived in debt, unable to speak the language and a 4th grade education. My parents worked blue collar jobs their whole careers, and my brother and I took after school and weekend work. The only priority was earning enough and studying enough to enter university. Now we have great careers and money saved and my parents are comfortably retired in their own home. Never took a single cent in welfare. What did we and ours cousins do differently than anyone else? Which opportunities were we given not available today?
  160. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Rick C: Greetings

    ' ....it's 2008 not 200 BC...'

    You are right. Let me correct. It is 400 BC today.

    Democracy was conceived in Athens 500 years ago. It disappeared later.

    Why did the West after 2 millennia adopt such an outmoded system? What was good in 400 BC is it good today?
  161. Sir Laifalot from Victoria, Canada writes: After 21 carreer changes, 250 jobs as a skilled tradesman mostly Union, 14 business's, back to school 9 times after high-school,after a lifetime of labour, I finally managed to build my own house but only because of Dad's 35 yrs of hard labour, & big kind heart ...was I able to inherit a lot of land, not alot but a lot, less than a 1/8 acre. Now when I was 28 in 1989 I was making $28 an hour,with benifits closer to $40 an hour which was good then but after taxes, (single) I was left with less than $15 an hour, no way could I afford a home or family then as a journeyman , now 20 yrs later after transferring out to BC the rate was $23 an hour,$5 less than what I made in 1989! Now 4 business's later,I am losing my home due to high interest equity loans,29% on the second with all the fees added.Where in all of this was the government? Not that I want handouts, like the rich corporations take but I would like to see quaranteed housing loans at low interest rates for 30 yrs, tax deductible interest on housing & flat tax rates so the working poor don't pay a cent on the first $20,000 (the poverty level) I consider it a sin that the poor pay way too much tax & the rich are able to exploit the loopholes, the Catholic church( Pope John) by the way just stated it is a sin not to pay your taxes... Now in all fairness I borrowed too much,(most of it went to hidden fees) business was slow & GST hit me with a lien for $62,000 for building my own house & claiming the GST credits.To be taxed on building my own home as a builder for profit? When it went to court, the Judge throws out my arguement over the value & equity even though the historical value for the place proved otherwise. 4 Appraisals & 4 Assessments later,it was given to the only bidder for $200k less than the appraised value. After 32 years of hard work & this is how it ends.So now I will take it on the gin like a good ole boy,downsize & start all over again. That's the Canadian spirit. What a great country!
  162. CD W from Canada writes: Lots of unhappy folks out there, so let us try this from a different angle. When I meet folks who on the rough side of life, I always wondered, how did they get here, and how can I avoid that? So I asked a guy once, one guy not scientific, he said he had been married with kids and good job and owned or almost owned a house. Then at work he took up a little recreational drug use, which turned into a lifestyle. Now he has nothing, there are no shortage of drug/psychiatric programs, he just is on the street, some cash, no taxes, sort of fresh air, no child support or alimony as he has impoverished himself by his drug use. Just one guy. How about others? Was grade 4 the 3 best years of their life? Now for the disabled, the problem we have there is that everyone says they are disabled. In my perfect world, we would take care of their housing and then give them the monthly stipend free and over and above the housing amount. But if you have addled your own brain from drugs or booze, that is not a disability. So our friends who are in the disability plan get tossed in with those who will not work. So if we help the truly disabled, the rest of the layabouts will demand more cash for themselves.
  163. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: Phil King, the beauty of run-off elections is that they lead to true majority decisions for all representatives and you avoid the extremes. Thus, you avoid the situation where a radical Greenpeace or Christian Heritage Party might hold the balance of power in a national government. PR does not guarantee a reduction in electoral distortions - in fact, it sometimes can INCREASE such distortions by giving small parties the balance of power. Kenneth Arrow did a tonne of work on this subject, and was able to prove mathematically that in any situation where more than two parties are running, ANY voting system, including PR, will lead to distorted results. It's called Impossibility Theorem. Read about it here.
    http://www-tech.mit.edu/V123/N8/8voting.8n.html
  164. Comments closed, censored, deleted or made to disappear from Mini Bushland, Canada writes: Mr. Pragmatic from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm just wondering. Has anyone here ever spoken to a poor person? -- I believe the question should be rephrased: 'has anyone here ever had a conversation with a person, i.e. a human being?' I'm afraid that's where we're at. Yet like it or not, want it or not, from now on we shall have to share this world in an unprecedented way. China, India, Brazil... we ain't seen nothing yet... not even the beginning of the beginning. Everybody feels that is coming... and fast... hence the extremism expressed against (let's call them) 'the non-rich'... Those living under an unsustainable system of unlimited growth are getting angry, very angry.... always thought everything was rosy... and permanent! Infantile. Comes now the reality check.
  165. North of the Border from Canada writes: You know what really boils me. Immigrants poor, we aren't bit. I'd like to know how many immigrant neighbours on my street are working jobs yes but also working 'under the table'. This whole pity act for immigrants would be a typical story the globe would push since Toronto would be a high focus point. Just as typical as they insult certain other regions of this country and are very willing to do so. Wasn't it McGuinty fighting to increase immigration for non-educated workers into Canada weeks ago? Un-educated normally doesn't equate to CEO positions people. People like McGuinty wants slaves and figures Canadian citizenship is what it will cost to get that. At the same time I'm making a decent salary I have to pay for my student loans out of it while the typical immigrant comes to Canada and gets free training for nothing. Making this survey should take into account things like that as well. I'll bet if they cracked down on 'under the table' work you'd find immigrants would be much more representing of poor than they are now too.
  166. Rick C from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto: I guess the question I have is what system would you prefer instead of democracy? A Theology like they have in Iran? Sorry but the Quaran isn't qualified to tell me or most people how to live our lives or govern our society.
  167. Steve Gibbons from Calgary, Canada writes: Rick C, so since your offer of kindeness was rejected you've switched the tune to confrontational? Whatever makes sense to you, dude but it sounds like you have your own problems. Just don't be surprised when one of these people gets upset with your childish actions.
  168. a salajan from To, Canada writes: Nestor C from Canada writes: you (new Canadian citizens) don't want to embrace Canada as is...go back'

    My questions still stands: where should unhappy not-so-new-canadians go (back)? Do they all embrace Canada as is? Never try to change anything?

    Should I conclude from your post that only canadian-born citizens can ask for change? Or maybe only 3-4th generation anglo?
  169. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'States do not have religion.'

    ----------------------------------

    Sure, and the fact that countries like Saudi Arabia prohibit other religions from being practiced in the country....and the fact that MANY 'Muslim' countries actually refer to themselves as MUSLIM nations are just anomalies? And the fact that Iran is run by Clerics is just an anomaly?

    Yeah, sure, Islam is a religion of the individual.....sorry, you may THINK it is supposed to be but it is not......its more like the religion that CONTROLS the individual.
  170. W W from Canada writes: The new immigration legislature should be able to address the issue with the university educated immigrants driving taxis. The legislature will focus on the skills rather than on the academic credentials. Even a Canadian born with a university degree without marketable skills would have a problem to find a job.
  171. Beer and Popcorn from Toronto, Canada writes:
    This just shows that Dion is correct when he says we should give more of our paycheques for 'Social Justice' (tax dollars for his friends and for LIEberal voting groups and for increased power of human rights tribunals to restrict any free speech which goes against LIEberal values) as well as carbon taxes and taxes to send transfer payments for the poor of other countries via wealth distribution through Kyoto.

    Maybe we should actually send all of our cheques to the LIEberals and they can send us what they thing we deserve?!
  172. Rick C from Canada writes: whatevah D from Canada writes: Rick C from Canada writes: anonymous contributor from Canada writes: 'Rick C: where do you live? I'm not living any better than my parents at my age; in fact I have much less. The numbers speak for themselves. inflation has gone up but our salaries have stayed the same. In my family, I have none of the things you talk about (save for cheap $2000 granite counters). I drive a Civic that was paid off almost two years ago and live in a 900 sq foot house I paid in the 250's for. We need two incomes to support our unaffordable lifestyle.' I live in Calgary. My salary increases have far outpaced inflation over the past 4 years. My parents were middle class; at 32 I make more than my dad did when he retired. I don't know your specific situation; how old you are or what you do for work. Maybe your dad was a doctor and you flip burgers for a living. That would certainly lead to you having less than your parents. You say you have none of the things I listed...except of course blowing $2K on 'cheap' granite countertops. Guess what...my parents have never even had cheap granite countertops and they don't consider themselves hard done by. How old is your car? Did you buy it new? Clearly my post you refer to was a generalization; however it fits for a lot of people I see. Many seem to think they are entitled to standard of living their parents currently enjoy right of high school or university. Most of the people I work with who are in their 20s and 30s buy houses their parents couldn't afford until their 40s or 50s.
  173. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    'Immigrants are not going back. Why should they. They see opportunity, soon an empty land without people waiting to be populated.'

    Yes and we all know the quickest way to overpopulation of an 'empty land' is import millions of Asians. With their exploding birthrate and the benefit of Canada's foolish Family Reunification program, it won't take long for you to realize your dream of dissolving Canada's history as a English and French-rooted nation.
  174. P Martin from St. John's, NL, Canada writes: Phil King - you must be in government. 600,000 people make more than 100K. 40,000 in the provincial government of Ontario alone. That does not include other provincial government or the bloated federal government. Less than 10% of the civil service make that kind of money? By your numbers, with a civil service of nearly 500,000 in Canada, that would make 50,000 people? Interesting, when just the provincial government of Ontario have nearly 85% of that number...

    Tell me where you get the number that less than 10% of civil service people make that money?

    My point about government is that they have cut all levels of social services, given bigger tax cuts to the wealthy and kept increasing their own salaries. Why do you think a large percentage of government have large salaries?

    Government responding to my needs? I am in NL, if there is anything that the Federal government does, it is to ignore and spit on the people of NL, whether they are doing well or not.
  175. Gary Thomson from Surrey, BC, Canada writes: The story is about the rich getting richer... . Even the top 1% of the population is a group large enough for the truly mega-rich families to statisticaly hide in. The rich-poor gap is not about hard workers vs. the lazy, immigrant vs. resident or even lucky vs unlucky. These dichotomies are all distractions from the real problem. It is about a very small group of mega-rich families and the the managing class they have co-opted with the crumbs from their table. The game, as Michael Moore puts it, is rigged in favour of the house. Sure, occaisionally a punter will win a jackpot, but the game and its profits are being run by a small group of the mega-rich who don't even want you to know they exist. The gov't is the only tool the people have to counter this aristocracy's power but we are allowing it too be undermined and weakened.
  176. W W from Canada writes: Until recently the immigrants as a group were making more that an average Canadian. Can we ask what happened?
  177. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: Judging by 'Syed Abbas' idiocy, it is difficult not to believe that he is a poseur under the pretence of agitating as many real Canadians as he can.
  178. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: W W from Canada writes: 'Until recently the immigrants as a group were making more that an average Canadian. Can we ask what happened?'

    They finially published the truth.
  179. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: W W from Canada writes: 'The new immigration legislature should be able to address the issue with the university educated immigrants driving taxis. The legislature will focus on the skills rather than on the academic credentials. Even a Canadian born with a university degree without marketable skills would have a problem to find a job.'

    The tacit component of the reason for the new immigration legislature is simply that the general public is waking up to the potential of Canada becoming culturally transformed by immigration. In order words, Canadians are finially getting smart.
  180. Mary Quite Contrary from Canada writes: Last night CBC program broadcast indicated that 40% of the immigrants that are entering Canada are refugees, family reunification(which now has priority) and those entering on compassionate grounds. If Canada accepted 270 000 immigrants last year, over 100 000 of the immigrants were not of economic benefit to the country as they require welfare, health care, subsidized housing, etc. for years as they do not have the skills or ability to be self-sustaining, which falls on the shoulders of taxpayers. This number compounds every year as Canada is accepting more and more in this category. The majority of these are unskilled who do not speak either English or French. The program bemoaned that Canada should be accepting even greater numbers in this category. How long before the percentage tips to over 50% and there are fewer immigrants working than those that need subsidies? It is not surprising as previous posters have pointed out that these immigrants are economically poorer, when they have no skills, English etc. to advance themselves. There is no doubt as mentioned earlier that Canada must make drastic changes to immigration, reduce the numbers back to those in the Trudeau era and be serious in admitting those who are of economic benefit to Canada, while reducing the numbers of those requiring benefits. It is also necessary for immigrants to realize that those cultures that have large numbers of children need to understand that the size of the family is dictated by the number they can afford to raise. While Canada needs children, are Canadians obligated to continue welfare payments for those with huge families and one earner? Those that work should not have to do without when taxes rise due to the need for increased funds for immigrant social programs such as welfare etc. Lastly please define 'poor'. Nowhere does it say that all people in Canada have the right to expect equality in all things such as cellphones, affording organized sports, music lessons etc.
  181. Rick C from Canada writes: Steve Gibbons from Calgary, Canada writes: 'Rick C, so since your offer of kindeness was rejected you've switched the tune to confrontational? Whatever makes sense to you, dude but it sounds like you have your own problems. Just don't be surprised when one of these people gets upset with your childish actions.'

    Who said I was confrontational? I simply ask them to break a $20 bill before they can harass me.

    They have no right to accost me in public. They aren't entitled to a portion of my salary regardless of what they think.

    If they don't like my question they don't have to approach me on the street.

    Many do get upset...I don't care. It doesn't bother me. So what if some bum is upset because I didn't give him my money to buy booze or drugs.
  182. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Wicked Messenger: Greetings

    ' ... won't take long for you to realize your dream of dissolving Canada's history as a English and French-rooted nation....'

    You must be joking. It was the non-French/English immigrants who brought a measure of stability to this land mired by 1200 years of legacy English-French rivalry that refuses to go away.

    There has never been a bi-lingual 'Nation' in history. Here are the four basic ingredients in the classical definition of a Nation.

    Common land, common descent, common language, common culture.

    Canada is at best a Community of nations. If you want to survive your nation start having kids. Why should my kids alone be responsible for you in your old age?
  183. Scott Anderson from London, Canada writes: Simple solution stop letting people in the country that will just end up sponging off the system. But then again the Liberials won't have it as that is how they buy votes when in power.

    It is sad that a Canadian born friend of mine lost his job do to a plant closing had been forced into 2 weeks here and there of layoffs over a period of three months. Paid into the system 15 years without drawing. After the plant closed he got a plant closing settlement which benefited the government and the company that closed and put him out on the street with a back injury L1 & L5 disc that he can't get surgery for until he is laid out for 8 weeks on a bed then he can go on a 16 month waiting list for the surgery. Because of the plant closing payout to the employee's they were forced to pay back EI for the 3 months they collected in the past and are disqualified from all government programs and EI benefits for 104 weeks. Sadly this guy is unable to work due to his back, his wife left him because he had no way of supporting her and his two kids and being a couple they can not even get welfare.

    In the end out of the plant closing settlement he got about 21% of the total as the governments taken a lump sum tax upfront EI forced him to pay back payments he received months before the closing and inrder to ensure he had health care for the kids he had to use after tax dollars to buy them. In the end he was left with money to pay the bills for a four month period less then if he would have never received the settlement and drained EI benefits. Canada is a British style dictatorshipwhich government is only moving people to a total social system that they can fully control and dictate over.
  184. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: W W from Canada writes: 'Until recently the immigrants as a group were making more that an average Canadian. Can we ask what happened?'

    W W, read my post at 11:28 a. m. EDT. That's what happened.
  185. Scott Anderson from London, Canada writes: Here is one better his company pension plan (Small) was transfered to a locked in plan that he can't touch until 60. The transfer was taxed because he was less then 10 yrs in the plan. So taxed three times on the pension. He lost the RRSP room from the contributions when the money went into the company plan, He was taxed on the transfer just after the plant closed and he will be taxed at 60 when he draws on it.

    Thus for every real inflated dollar in the end he will be lucky to get 12 cents back. Have to love the social dictatorship Canada is that most people don't realize we are in.
  186. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Wicked Messenger

    ' ..... quickest way to overpopulation of an 'empty land' is import millions of Asians....'

    Lord's Law trumps Man's Law.
  187. Joe V from Canada writes: The obvious solution would be to drastically reduce immigration and raise minimum wages.

    But that would be too expensive for our political masters, who profit off of the suffering of the poor.
  188. Gord Lewis from home?, Canada writes: Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes:
    Yeah! To heck with freedom of speech - ban everyone that disagrees with Gord Lewis....then he can hang out here and talk to himself!

    ______________________________________

    Well, some days on these threads that would be the most intelligent option. Sorry you have construed my mini-rant about repetitive moronic trolls as an attack on free speech. You probably also believe that mass voting equates to democracy . . .

    Cheers, Ed
  189. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: It is worth noting that the proposed changes to the decision making process regarding immigration is in some respects a revitalization of a time when Canada had control over the 'cultural destiny' of its country. Subsequent developments such as the Multiculturalism Act were to some degree brought on my post world war 2 liberalism and international presurres. Unfortunately this brought us too far to the other extreme, and as a result Canadians today have NO SAY in the cultural fate of their nation. The changes will restore a balance, and we all know balance is good.
  190. Scott Anderson from London, Canada writes:
    Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: W W from Canada writes: 'Until recently the immigrants as a group were making more that an average Canadian. Can we ask what happened?'

    This is why the conservative want to change to BS immigration system Canada has it promotes bringing in more no skill people then skilled who are unable to contribute to the growth or expansion of the country anymore.

    Just look at the stats for Government subsidised housing after the 1982 constition that has only bastardized the immigration laws that are always seem to be beating when challanged under the useless constitition that Canada has that is considered the worst written moder one in the world today.

    I have no problem with people immigrating here but we are at a turning point in history with a 470 Billion National Debt and 2.83 Trillion unfunded liabilities that are coming to a head in the next decade we can't afford as a nation to float 70% of the people that are now moving into the country. In the 50's they should have allowed a mass immigration when we could today we can not.

    Basket case Canada
  191. lyle craver from Vancouver, BC, writes: As a store manager historically roughly 40% of my income is derived from performance bonuses for our store. I've had pay increases of 1-2% to my base (typically every two years) but 2007 and 2008 have seen the bonus portion drastically reduced. While 2005 was a record year (and the bonus showed it), 2007 was 10% of the peak level and I'm not expecting more this year.

    I think it goes without saying that one is working harder than ever before with evening work commonplace.
  192. Steve D from St. John's, Canada writes: Rosehill Avenue from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Nothing surprising at all here.

    In my opinion, income/wealth disparity is the number one issue facing our society today globally.'

    Making sure I'm in the top 20 % is my take on the issue. My huge taxes can care of the rest of you.
  193. Truth Hurts from Toronto, Canada writes: Syed Abbas: 'All religions are basically socio-economic systems that answer to the fundamental problem of existence - survival, growth, evolution. Spiritual icing and rituals bind people with similar economic outlook together. Each religion has a building block unit wealth generating sub-system, a resource allocation methodology, a planning horizon, an output sharing formula. In Islam these are the Individual, free enterprise intelligent equity, a long business cycle, and frugality towards self alongwith generosity towards others. The urban poor in the West are already flocking to the mosque. The fastest growing religion by conversion. ' All of the statements made above are fundamentally flawed. (1) You are borrowing most of your ideas from modern concepts and then very intelligently you are fusing it with religion and in result you are creating this mirage that religion is the root of all good. The modern concepts like economics, evolution, growth, science all exist inspite of religion, religion is not the contributor to these fields its the destroyer. (2) 'Each religion has a building block unit wealth generating sub-system' This whole paragraph cannot be more wrong. The evidence for that is : 2 countries with same religion can be on different ends of prosperity scale. Its not the religion that creates the subsystem..its the society ..its people. (3) Islam can handle small business model, probaly something like grocery store or local medical clinic but there is nothing in Islam that can even touch the level of complexity the capitalism has achieved. Islam is nowhere in the scene when it comes to addressing complex problems like creating supercomputers, robots, drugs, operating systems, advanced vehicles. Complex problems need an effort & investment of such a magnitude that the only solution is an efficient system like capitalism.
  194. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: In my opinion, it is not how much you earn but how you manage your money, especially over the long term. Most people I know, except for the seniors, have enormous debt and that is the problem today. I have read somewhere that Canadians owe 110% of what they make annually on an average. In my opinion, once you have debt you cannot move forward. But, then, the young people MUST have everything right now, and just take longer to pay for it.

    I followed the advice of a demograher from the U of T who used to say, 'Hard Assets well maintained, no Debt' was the best way to go, and steady, even though small, will always win out in the long term.
  195. T H from Ottawa, Canada writes: Phil King....your arguments do not hold water. To put it in terms to hit home....lets say that your riding actually elected a Green PArty member to parliament.....then because of the proportional representation you subscribe to it was forced upon your group that the member MUST be Conservative. Not very fair after you went out and campaigned and fought hard for your non-elected official. Plus such a system disenfranchises the votes of the riding giving them representation actualkly voted for by people outside the riding and hence out of touch with the riding issues. Or how about 15 years ago when you could have had a member of the reform party as your representative.

    We'll keep First-Past-The-Post thank you very much....it's by far the fairer system to anything else proposed out there.
  196. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: Mary Quite Contrary from Canada writes: 'Last night CBC program broadcast indicated that 40% of the immigrants that are entering Canada are refugees, family reunification(which now has priority) and those entering on compassionate grounds. If Canada accepted 270 000 immigrants last year, over 100 000 of the immigrants were not of economic benefit to the country as they require welfare, health care, subsidized housing, etc.'

    Yes Mary, Canada has indeed become the 'Mother Teresa of Nations'
  197. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Truth Hurts: Greetings

    ' .... creating supercomputers, robots, drugs, operating systems, advanced vehicles. Complex problems need an effort & investment of such a magnitude that the only solution is an efficient system like capitalism....'

    etc. etc. etc. Still the Corporate West is losing the game of survival, growth, and evolution to Islam.

    Mohammed was the only person in history to have soundly defeated the combined forces of Big Business, Bankers, Trade Monopolists, and Judahists, and live to tell how to do it in the Koran.

    Corporate West fears that small business Islam, using Mohammedan strategy and tactics, will do an Encore.

    Tomorrow, the problem will not be production, but trade, a specialty of the Muslims. Who cares what you produce if you are not efficient in Trade? Mohammed was a trader, and tomorrow trade will be in Muslim hands, as it had been for most of the history prior to 17th century.

    Keep on producing. You will need us to sell it somewhere.
  198. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: Truth Hurts from Toronto- please consider my recommdation: don't respond to Syed's posts. I have stopped permanently. His opinion is worth the price of a tissue, or less.
  199. Peter Fulton from Canada writes: Being politically incorrect, I often make a note of the race/background of those I encounter.

    I almost always find the following to be true;-

    Panhandlers, beggars, homeless etc are almost exclusively white, with no international accent.

    The fast food joints and convenience stores near where they exist are almost exclusively staffed by visible minorities/immigrants who are hardworking, polite and eager to please.
  200. Milos Gravity from Canada writes: Mr. Pragmatic from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm just wondering. Has anyone here ever spoken to a poor person?

    __________
    A poor person who works or a hobo standing on the street with his hand out? There's a difference you know.
  201. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    Tory times are hard times.
  202. Roberto Segado from Canada writes: Questions:
    1. Are these immigrants poorer than they were in their country of origin?
    2. Are they making a real effort to integrate into mainstream society?
    3. Are we selecting the right kind of immigrants; i.e., those that will contribute to Canada rather than drain it?
    Maybe we should understand that immigration is a multi-generational process, and perhaps an income gap is simply normal.
  203. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Roberto Segado: Greetings

    ' .. Are these immigrants poorer than they were in their country of origin?..'

    Must be. That is why they are here. Those who are not go to the US.

    ' ... Are they making a real effort to integrate into mainstream society? ..'

    Depends. Stronger (read more efficient) culture prevails, like a dominant gene. People go for the better.

    '... Are we selecting the right kind of immigrants; i.e., those that will contribute to Canada rather than drain it?...'

    Tough question. What may sound good today may be a bad decision in 10 years. What politician sees beyond his next election?
  204. SN Dream from Canada writes: Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes:
    Also in 1985, the Singh decision was handed down by the Supreme Court, effectively stripping immigration officials of their main responsibility - that of refusing entry to those who obviously lie about their status. The result has been predictable. Even during the severe recession years of the early 1990s, and the slow-growth mid-1990s, immigration rates remained at over 200,000 per year
    -------------------------------
    Actually, the major problem is not the quantity of immigrant, it's more of quality as well as our the lack of help to support those immigrant to adapt the new environment.

    Immigrant should be selected so that it's a mutual benefits relation, instead many of them have been offered immigrant status as some type of social welfare program for the third world.

    Also, to deport or extradites criminal under the current system would take decades and during all this times, taxpayer will be footing the bills to pay for welfare as well as lawyers for them to fight on.

    The worst is the emphasis in Canadian experience as well as the protectionism among many trades. Many of the immigrant have to work for minimum wages for years while trying to get back to their original profession. I know quite a few engineer who received their education in England and worked for International company in India, but they couldn't get their qualification recognized.
  205. Humphrey Pennyworth from Canada writes: 'On average, salaries haven't changed much over the past quarter century. Median earnings of Canadians who work full time edged to $41,401 in 2005 from $41,348 in 1980, measured in constant dollars.' No one should be surprised by this report. When autoworkers, for example, get a raise in pay, then the carpenters (for example) need a raise so they can buy the cars. The house builders need more money for the houses so they can pay the carpenters, at their new rates and we all want higher wages so we can buy or rent living accommodations at the higher prices. And around and around it goes. We have come to expect to make more money for doing the same work. But unless we are more productive, more efficient, the net results will be the same. We are now more in competition with other countries and alas, they seem to be winning. Solutions? There are no solutions that would be acceptable by the populace in general. Wage controls were tried once and we know how that went over. Right now, governments seems to be too pre-occupied with politics to recognize the seriousness of the problem to even address it. Our only hope is that the workers in the emerging nations will also start demanding higher wages. But that will take a long time, especially in countries like China.
  206. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    SN Dream: Greetings

    ' .... Immigrant should be selected so that ...'

    And pray, who will do the selection?

    The Libs and the Cons have differing goals and policies. Once out of power, so is your policy.
  207. J Kay from Canada writes: P Martin: You might wish to fact check your numbers because there is substantially more than 500,000 civil servants in Canada. The public sector in Canada employs 3,199,793 as of 2007 numbers by Statistics Canada. Of those numbers 262,000 work for government run corporations, with the remaining working in government, which includes, eudcation (teachers, principles, boards of education), health care and social services, universities and general government. If we just look at general government, your standard civil servant, then there are 387,641 at the federal government level, including people in the military, 356,846 at the provincial government level and 395,146 at the local government level across the country for a total of approximately 1,138,000 people working for 'government' as civil servants. If we exclude the military, a total of about 88,000 people then we have 1,050,000 civil servants in Canada.

    Now if Ontario has 44,000 'civil servants' earning more than 100K, that would be less than 10% of the total but I suspect that included in those 44,000 are people working for VIA rail, Go, the TTC, hospitals and school boards etc, which would mean that instead of using the 1,050,000 figure one should use the larger one. So yes Phil King is exactly correct and you are not.
  208. SN Dream from Canada writes: Mr. Pragmatic from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm just wondering. Has anyone here ever spoken to a poor person?
    -----------------------------------------------
    That's depends who do you mean by a poor person.

    That Hobo near the Bloor station in Toronto? No

    People who work hard, able to support themselves but cannot afford a house because the government keep on taxing them to give to the hobo? Yes.
  209. Scott Anderson from London, Canada writes: Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville Your statment is only partially correct. I agree with managing your money as I have and I am ok for life now.

    > Most people I know, except >for the seniors, have enormous debt >and that is the problem today. I have read somewhere that >Canadians owe 110% of what they make annually on an average. In >my opinion, once you have debt you cannot move forward. But, then, >the young people MUST have everything right now, and just >take longer to pay for it.

    This is not totally correct.

    In the 1970's which I got to enjoy. The average middle class income was around $4 K a year. A house on the lake cost around 12K or 3 years total icome. In the 70's most consumtion taxes did not exist and the income tax rate was less then 10% because of the allowable deductions to the population. People did not have to pay for ambulance services, or any medical at alleverything was covered 100% not like today where you pay $11 to park at a hospital for the day in some provinces(Ontario) you pay upto 600 per year for the health card. If they use certain types of bandages on you or drugs in the hospitals you pay out of pocket. If you stay more then so many days in the hospital beds you pay.

    Today the average middle Class income is around $43k Yr. that same house on the lake is now $500K or 11.6 years income but actually worse then that because of all the taxes people have to pay today. Income tax Federal and Provincial around 39 to 40%, Provincial and Federal consumption taxes 13%(Ontario) so now we are at 53% now when you buy a Tim hortons coffee for $1.40 included into the price before Sales tax is taxes on the cup and grains at the manufaturing level, transportation to the store, then the fuel for the transport is taxed and even on the very gas for your car. Now we are at a tex rate of 63 to 64% of every dollar going to the government. Thus that house is now 32.3years of todays earnings.
  210. J S from Toronto, Canada writes: Okay - we'll only allow immigration to doctors and lawyers and business people with large portfolios. Now, hire an electrician. All Canadian kids are going to college and university - no one wants to be the brick layer's labourer or the guy that shovels the gravel into the foundation of a new building, or the burger flipper at your local fast food restaurant, but someone's gotta do it. Canada is going through a very difficult time with a lack of skilled trades people and labourers - ask any company in Alberta that is looking to import labourers. So, who's gonna do the work that no one else wants to do for minimum wage?? And then, once we find people to do these minimum wage jobs, we'll call them lazy because they're struggling to feed themselves and thier families.
  211. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Scott Anderson: Greetings

    Excellent post.
  212. Truth Hurts from Toronto, Canada writes: Syed: 'Still the Corporate West is losing the game of survival, growth, and evolution to Islam' I really do not see how you came to that conclusion?. First, Islam is so depndent on Corprate West for its prosperity, without corporate west all Islam has is mullah and mosques. Secondaly you must have diffrent standards then me to evaluate 'survival, growth, and evolution'. Growth is not just growth literally ..its higher living standards..its stability..its peace..its moving forward..its about solving complex problems..its abt being technologically sound..its abt happiness..its not just numbers ..its maximum possible attainment of everything...and thats whats modern economics is about. Syed: 'Big Business, Bankers, Trade Monopolists, and Judahists, and live to tell how to do it in the Koran.' I don know what Mohammed did but i will definitely tell you where you are wrong. First big bankers today are not individuals sucking money out ordinary man. Most of banks are publicily held firms by ordinary people (sharholders...and everybody is free to own a piece of bank). People who work for big banks are also ordinary people and their cusotmers ..guess what ?.. common man. So large banks are nothing but a complex organisation serving larger group of people, (an innovative way to deliver products & solve complexity) . Banks do work for profit but again that profit is distributed among its employees or shareholders. Banks are open to audits and usually are audited. Everybody is free to use banks services but its not mandatory. I can go on.but i hope you got the point . Syed: 'Corporate West fears that small business Islam, using Mohammedan strategy and tactics, will do an Encore.' haha Tell me that was a joke ..small business does not lead to technological breathroughs. Big Corporate west leads the way in that. Syed: 'the problem will not be production, but trade' Man, you assume too much and you seriously underestimate the brain power of capitalism.
  213. Humphrey Pennyworth from Canada writes: 'On average, salaries haven't changed much over the past quarter century. Median earnings of Canadians who work full time edged to $41,401 in 2005 from $41,348 in 1980, measured in constant dollars.' No one should be surprised by this report. When autoworkers, for example, get a raise in pay, then the carpenters (for example) need a raise so they can buy the cars. The house builders need more money for the houses so they can pay the carpenters, at their new rates and we all want higher wages so we can buy or rent living accommodations at the higher prices. And around and around it goes. We have come to expect to make more money for doing the same work. But unless we are more productive, more efficient, the net results will be the same. We are now more in competition with other countries and alas, they seem to be winning. Solutions? There are no solutions that would be acceptable by the populace in general. Wage controls were tried once and we know how that went over. Right now, governments seems to be too pre-occupied with politics to recognize the seriousness of the problem to even address it. Our only hope is that the workers in the emerging nations will also start demanding higher wages. But that will take a long time, especially in countries like China.
  214. Larry Murphy from Canada writes: Patch workers working their a@@es off, and a Toronto City councilor looking for a handout.

    I guess pictures do speak a thousand words.
  215. The Natrix from Toronto, Canada writes: It might have to do with all the immigrants coming to Toronto, and thereby squeezing any marginal income or 'space' a new immigrant can reap the benefits of.

    There's only so many people that can occupy a space or section, that have the limited skills and opportunities as immigrants. You put them all in one place, and it makes it worse. It should be more spread out somehow (not that I have a specific solution).

    Harry Truman once famously quoted that 'a nation is better served by 10 cities of 700,000 then 1 City of 7 million.'. That is the problem with Canada. Unnatural concentration of a specific demographic, increasing competition in trying to reap the same benefits as before.
  216. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    The gap in incomes will only widen with a Conservative government.
    Tax cuts help the rich. Service cuts hurt the poor.
  217. Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada writes: Truth Hurts from Toronto, Canada writes: Islam is so depndent on Corprate West for its prosperity, without corporate west all Islam has is mullah and mosques.

    I don't think so Truth Hurts, Islam depends far more on the oil beneath the ground than it does on the corporate west. Just like credit for Alberta's boom has more to do with the oil under its territory than it has with the Catholic Church, the Government in Edmonton, or the corporate west.
  218. Scott Anderson from London, Canada writes: Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville

    In other words the working generation of the 70's my parents and partially me, we got a free ride off the backs of todays earners as the self centered government of the 70's was buying votes to get reelected by given almost all services and infrastructure costs away for free to the people of the time by not charging the proper rates of taxes for the usage of those services and benefits. Thus many of the elderly were capable of savings and investing more then any other generation in history. As almost all government expenditure were piled up in the form of National debt (470 Billion) and 2.83 Trillion un funded liabilities that today we are now having to tax on a major scale to pay on this massive debt build up.

    All I can say is I am glad that the Libs and Cons of today are not as recklass as the Libs of the 70's were. Even today in the back room the Libs shake there head and say what destruction the party did to this nation back in the 70's that we now face today.

    The standard of living was never ment to be as high as it is today and people today will see the declind go well below that of the 70's and 80's because of the handouts received in the 70's has to also be paid for.
  219. elizabeth vann from victoria, b.c., Canada writes: The biggest problem in this country is the huge number of Public Service employees at every government level. The cost of benefits must be added to the base salary to do a correct analysis.

    Most of these unions have little interest in helping others. Their leaders only want to add to membership rolls and so add to their own salaries and clout.

    The next biggest problem is the sense of 'entitlement' fostered by successive governments at all levels.
  220. Another Opinion from Toronto, Canada writes: For Yvonne Wackernagel: 'the young people MUST have everything right now, and just take longer to pay for it.'

    Wow. Do you wear a sweatshirt that has the word 'ignorance' printed across the chest, or do you simply open your mouth and let people draw the obvious conclusion?

    Yvonne, did you know the average home cost in Toronto and Vancouver is in excess of $300,000? Setting aside your obvious contempt for young people, have you for a second considered what percentage of the population OF ANY AGE make in excess of $100,000 a year net?

    When my father bought his first house (for $18,000) he was making approximately $12,000 a year. Now, that ratio is positively laughable.

    Boomers have, and I can't stress this enough, NOT ONE DAMN CLUE how hard it is for people under the age of 45 to survive in our culture. Most people my age either had to look to their parents to help buy their first house or (like me) had to rent for over a decade or more before I had the money to even afford a down payment!

    Young people want everything now? Hardly. Thanks to our ignorant parents, most young people will be lucky to get ANYTHING EVER!
  221. Benjamin Frankling from Canada writes: I can't believe some of the comments here. Yes people, poor people exist and will always exist. The system needs poor people. The more poor people there are, the richer the few rich people get. It's a law of the capitalist system.
  222. Scott Anderson from London, Canada writes:

    > Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    >Scott Anderson: Greetings

    >Excellent post.

    Thanks I am only re quoting an indepth study I read a while back from InvestorsPit.com with alot of other tips on where to put money which has made me alot of money by having me invest heavy in Silver when it was $6.12, Oil when it was $51 and other commodities. They even predict long term the U.S. dollar will loose its reserve status and explained why which makes total sense. Sadly today I have no access to the studies they release as they don't make them public anymore. I am now out ofthe loop. SAD):

  223. Tim Burns from Edmonton, Canada writes: Something highlighted in the BC RCMP tazoring of the poor polish immigrant, is that there are zero language requirements for immigrants. If I moved to Poland and couldnt speak Polish, I wouldnt expect to get a job. In Canada theres a pride in having stupid immigration laws, the dumber they are, the more holy we are.
  224. Vote NDP in the next federal/ provincial election from Toronto, Canada writes: This report proves what the NDP has been saying for years but ignored by past Liberal and Conservative governments.

    Wake up people the prosperity gap is widening and the trickle-down theory doesn't work here.

    Minimum wages need to be increased immediately. If CEOs and other high authority get raises then so do workers. Also foriegn credentials should be recognized immediately so that way our immigrants don't live in poverty. If we need to upgrade these skills then do so. Also bank fees, gas prices, and other living expenses should be controlled. Otherwise costs go through the roof and it's ordinary people who suffer.
  225. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: According to the Greater Vancouver Real Estate Board's August 2007 report on house prices and sale activities, the average sales price for a detachted home in Vancouver was $726,067. This high price is in a large degree the result of immigration- property-flipping and off-shore speculation being a major component of this situation.

    The result has been a movement of second generation and new home buyers moving to the suburbs, while our inner core becomes a home for the wealthy only. Many of the wealthy are new arrivals from Asia. Take a drive down ANY Vancouver street and witness the over-representation of Asian realtor names on the for sale signs. As I have said, all the 'signs' are right before our eyes if we only take off government-induced veils of multicultural propaganda.
  226. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: Tim Burns from Edmonton, Canada writes: 'Something highlighted in the BC RCMP tazoring of the poor polish immigrant, is that there are zero language requirements for immigrants. If I moved to Poland and couldnt speak Polish, I wouldnt expect to get a job. In Canada theres a pride in having stupid immigration laws, the dumber they are, the more holy we are.'

    The laxity of Canada's language laws are one of the main travesties(sp?) of modern Canada. It is an absolute joke. Any private business has the right to post unilingually in a foreign language on public signage. There is no priority given to Canada's official languages in terms of public signage. Many parts of vancouver resemble Hong Kong or Tiawan as a result. Schools are teaching Asian languages, thereby reversing the idea that new immigrants should adapt of the Canadian way of life rather than vice versa.

    In its desire not to disturb the holy mantra of the multicult, Canada will over-accomidate itself out of existence.
  227. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Truth Hurts: Hi

    “ .... you seriously underestimate the brain power of capitalism...”

    Let me count the ways.

    In 31 years (1914-45) over 80,000,000 dead, 6,000,000 gassed. Booted out of India by Churchill’s half-naked Fakir, of Viet-Nam by farmers. Could not defeat Soviets until Muslims did the job. Small industry decimated by Communist China. Outwitted by a madman with $200,000 (some say $60,000) budget who armed his operatives with box cutters.

    A grower makes 7c on a dollar, traders the rest. Tomorrow this will not change. Islam religion of trade, Koran a trader’s manual just as Bible was a farmer’s. Even geographically, Islam sits smack in the middle of Africa, Europe, and Asia, where 90-95% of the action will be in the 21st century.

    So Keep on producing, Coroporate West. Islam will eat your lunch. No wonder you can not even re-produce yourself. Just look at Canada and read Scott Anderson’s 2:06 pm post.

    That is what happens when you dump Jesus for Profit.
  228. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Scott Anderson:

    I can see that you have done well by looking at the reality, rather than the appearances.

    The Lord is the ultimate Reality.
  229. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: T H from Ottawa, Canada: The most suggested proportional system is mixed member proportional, and in no way changes the nature of your riding representative.

    MMP simply adds to the existing system. It appoints a limited number of additional MPs that represent the proportional differences in each election.

    The result is that every Canadian has someone answerable to them in their riding AND there is a proportional mix of representatives reflecting the true intent of the people as a whole.

    The system we have now rewards as little as 30% of the population with 100% of the say, which to me is untenable.

    Mixed member proportional keeps them accountable both in the ridings and in the halls of government.
  230. Rick C from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'etc. etc. etc. Still the Corporate West is losing the game of survival, growth, and evolution to Islam.' Are you delusional? 'Islam' is gaining nothing on western Corporations. You could argue China is taking a bite out of western Corporations; but even that wouldn't be entirely true since it's largely western Corporations dominating their market. Since you seem to have missed the memo; Islamic countries aren't doing particularly well. Your bias is pretty obvious. 'Mohammed was the only person in history to have soundly defeated the combined forces of Big Business, Bankers, Trade Monopolists, and Judahists, and live to tell how to do it in the Koran.' Again you put a lot of faith in the accuracy of a book written a couple thousand years ago, translated from dead languages and by people who were clearly biased. 'Corporate West fears that small business Islam, using Mohammedan strategy and tactics, will do an Encore.' Again you are delusional if you think small business Islam is doing anything to western Corporations.
  231. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Kay from Canada: It's funny too because in my original comment I had limited my scope to the federal public service alone in which less than 10% make more than 100K out of about 120 000 people.

    I like your last comment especially because it shows just how many people truly do work on the behalf of Canadians, and therefore how broadly useless the stereotypes employed by some really are.

    In my view there are good people in every walk of life, but I will say that in the public service that I have met a great many people who pride themselves on working towards the common good, rather than financial gain.
  232. whatevah D from Canada writes: Rick C: Actually my dad was a factory worker; mom was a teacher. But they bought their house in cash at a ridiculously low price in the early 70s, then in the eighties their incomes went up up and up. even though my mom became a widow in the mid-80s, we still had more then than I do today, when I'm almost at the exact same age she was at the time. WE had two cars, a pool and took nice vacations.

    My civic was used when I bought it, fyi. And I'm not a burger flipper. I have two university degrees, as does my husband. But we don't work in an extremely lucrative field, which is fine. We make just over $100K together and live fine. But, we can't afford to live on one $50 k a year salary. Cheers.
  233. Beer and Popcorn from Toronto, Canada writes: Khadr Must Be Repatriated to Receive Just Treatment April 30, 2008 OTTAWA – Prime Minister Stephen Harper must demand the United States government remove Omar Khadr from the Guantanamo Bay detention facility to ensure he is treated fairly under Canadian and international humanitarian law, Liberal Opposition Leader Stéphane Dion said today. “Mr. Khadr is a Canadian citizen and as such, the government has a duty to ensure that his Charter rights and his rights under international law are respected,” said Mr. Dion. “If Mr. Khadr cannot receive a fair trial before the US Military Commission, he must be brought back to Canada so that he can face due process in Canada where, among other things, his status as a child soldier under the terms of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child will be respected.” Liberals have been urging the government for nearly a year to bring Mr. Khadr back to Canada to ensure his rights as a Canadian citizen are respected. Mr. Dion reiterated his call to repatriate Mr. Khadr after meeting Lieutenant Commander William Kuebler, Omar Khadr’s lead US military lawyer and Ms. Rebecca Snyder, his co-counsel. Mr. Dion first met with Mr. Khadr’s American counsel in September 2007.
  234. Sue G. from Canada writes: In this age of technolgy, why are we even looking at data that is over three years old ( other than the historical record of years prior to 2006) Hopefully current policy is based on things more recent.
  235. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: Rick C- yes Syed is delusional. You are better off trying to have meaningful conversation with perhaps a chair or a moose than this fellow.
  236. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Kay from Canada writes: Now if Ontario has 44,000 'civil servants' earning more than 100K, that would be less than 10% of the total but I suspect that included in those 44,000 are people working for VIA rail, Go, the TTC, hospitals and school boards etc, which would mean that instead of using the 1,050,000 figure one should use the larger one. So yes Phil King is exactly correct and you are not.

    ---------------------------------------------

    JK, the Ontario published numbers relate only to Provincial and Municipal Employees in Ontario. His email relates to the Federal Govmnt employment in Ottawa (the feds have 120K employees here) and those numbers are not included in the 'Sunshine List'. He might be right or he might be wrong. Assuming that he is right, I would point out that 'salary' is only part of the story: benefits (including Defined Benefit Pension) should be added for a better picture. And how much is job security that is better than that of a tenured professor worth? Add to that the amount of work actually done and IMO they are vastly overpaid. The federal govmnt jobs here in Ottawa are so coveted that for every opening there are thousands of applications! I've had 'defections' from my group to the feds for 'less' salary. Why? Because as the fellow explained to me if you add the job security, pension and how hard he has to work he thought he is paid like a king.

    As for how much they work, PK does not do the federal employees any favours by ALWAYS posting between 9 am and 5 pm. Never on this own time only taxpayer time.

    On another note, you;ve asked why I mentioned Ireland yesterday. I did it because they went from 0 becoming the largest semi manufacturer in Europe in the span of a few years. I think it is a salient example of how low taxes has attracted massive investments in manufacturing (Intel alone has spent 10 billion on fabs there!)

  237. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: From today's Vancouver Sun:'Median income in British Columbia has plummeted in the last 25 years, plunging to $42,230 a year between 1980 and 2005, the sharpest decline in all of Canada.'

    It's interestng that B.C. has the sharpest decline and yet other than Ontario we receive more new immigrants than any other province?

    Clearly this provides more tangible evidence regarding the myth of the benefit of immigration.
  238. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Rick C & Wicked Messenger: Greetings

    Let me pour more delusional stuff on you.

    Hundred years ago the Corporate West controlled 100% of the globe.

    A few years later they began to commit suicide. In 31 years 1914-45 they dispatched 80,000,000 of their own to hell.

    A few decades later, they were kicked out of India.

    Ten years later, the rest of Asia and Africa was history.

    The Americans tried their luck in Asia. Sure they won the battle with Japan, but lost the war to China.

    Now, what does the Corporate West control? Now welcome on 9/10th of globe.

    Yea, most of China is controlled by Western Corporations. How come China still holds a Trillon $ in cash? Some Western control !!!

    Can't catch a madman in the mountain, mired in Afghanistan, in Iraq's quagmire. Recession staring in face. Sinking $ (and yes, C$ too relative to world currency basket).

    Some delusion. The problem is that you can not tell Hollywood from reality. Keep on watching the tube.
  239. Ron Pacific from Vancouver, Canada writes: I do agree that our immigration system has been failing of late and the fact that highly educated immigrants are doing so poorly here is disturbing indeed. However, I must strongly disagree with some of the comments here about immigration and immigrants in general. I think they add to our society in Canada and it is appalling they are still treated like second rate citizens by so many of my fellow native born Canadians. Before you slag them (including family class immigrants) for diluting Canadian culture or failing to learn the language or unproductive drains on the system, you might consider that they likely have as much or more education than you. You might also realize the majority are extremely hard workers and will work at jobs that most Canadians wouldn't be caught dead doing. Who do you see staffing the Tim Horton's outlets without whining or complaining? Most likely, an immigrant who is working like crazy at a crap job so you can get your donut and coffee. Who was the maid who cleaned your condo? Probably an immigrant. Who cleaned your mom's nursing home? Would you like to do those tasks? When was the last time you saw an immigrant begging on the street? Probably you haven't because they are too busy working at minimum wage jobs trying to earn a living. So next, time before you say we should stop immigrant from coming here or slagging them as a drain on the system or a threat to your culture, stop and think about who keeps our society and economy going.
  240. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Who said that ... the meek shalt inherit the Earth!

    And while they will have treasure in Heaven, it is next to impossible for the rich. It may be easier for a camel to enter a needle's eye than gain entry to Heaven!
  241. Mike Bryan from Canada writes: This growing disparity in incomes and the continued stagnation of the middle class is of course no accident - so very plainly plainly NOT just a trend that is happening due to 'global' (spare me, will you???) circumstances beyond anyone's control.

    This is the result of deliberate, integrated neoliberal/neocon corporate and government policies deliberately DESIGNED to enhance the wealth of the already most wealthy at the expense of middle class and working people at the bottom of the heap.

    It's no accident these alarming trends are continuing under a Conservative government that acts only in the interests of big corporations, banks, oil companies and Canada's wealthy elites/

    When will the middle class and the NDP wake up and find each other ? when will the afflicted people in the middle stop voting Liberal and Conservative and thereby perpetuating their own inexorable economic demise, as Canada progresses towards mediaeval feudal state status ?

    Let's get behind social democratic forces bring about a peaceful revolution to reverse this wicked trend which has harmed so many millions of our people.

    Down with the Tories and their corporate masters !
  242. Northern Dancer from outside of toronto, Canada writes: If plan to emigrate to USA and transplant my IT skills, can I get the same job & earnings -- not likely.

    G&M editors need to get a grip on reality.
  243. Rick C from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Hundred years ago the Corporate West controlled 100% of the globe.' Ummm no....western Corporations did not control 100% of the globe. Not even close. 'A few years later they began to commit suicide. In 31 years 1914-45 they dispatched 80,000,000 of their own to hell.' LOL....dispatched 80,000,000 of their own to hell? I think you need to quit watching the tube and come back to reality. 'A few decades later, they were kicked out of India.' Really? How come they are still there then? 'Ten years later, the rest of Asia and Africa was history.' ??? Not sure what you mean by this statement. Western Corporations weren't that integrated into Asia and Africa at the time so I doubt they were history. 'The Americans tried their luck in Asia. Sure they won the battle with Japan, but lost the war to China.' Really...what war exactly did they lose to China? Western Corporations are everywhere in China. 'Now, what does the Corporate West control? Now welcome on 9/10th of globe.' Well according to your post they control 9/10th of the globe. Although in reality they don't control anything. They participate in business on 9/10th of the globe though. 'Yea, most of China is controlled by Western Corporations. How come China still holds a Trillon $ in cash? Some Western control !!!' Corporations don't control the money supply...no matter what the most recent re-run of the X-Files you watched. China holding USD has nothing to do with corporations. 'Can't catch a madman in the mountain, mired in Afghanistan, in Iraq's quagmire. Recession staring in face. Sinking $ (and yes, C$ too relative to world currency basket).' Again...has nothing to do with western corporations. You seem to confuse gov'ts with corporations. As I said...you're delusional.
  244. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Mike Bryan: Greetings

    ' ... as Canada progresses towards mediaeval feudal state status..'

    Actually, that would be a blessing if it were possible.

    But we are a northern land. Too short a growing season for us to be a viable feudal state. It would be more like industrial slavery a la Athens.
  245. L.B. MURRAY from Canada L.B. MURRAY from Canada from Canada writes: Steve D. from St John's writes: ''
    Making sure I'm in the top 20 % is my take on the issue. My huge taxes can care of the rest of you.
    Posted 01/05/08 at 1:35 PM EDT''

    ______________________________

    Steve, Steve, Steve... Time for the Globe and Mail to require, absolutely require a full name and valid address...

    If I were to take a cruise from New York to Quebec City with a couple of stops on the way... say, Halifax or St John's, would you be proud to meet me at the docks and invite me for a cocktail at your house...

    I know I would gladly invite you to MY condo and a game of tennis or a swim followed by a croissant, croque-monsieur or croque-madame and a glass of fine red French wine...

    Perhaps you prefer Chedar cheese and beer... fine with me...

    It's too easy for people on these fora to hijack other people's names or pretend they're from Nfdl while they're posting from their mommy's basement in Calgary or Moose Jaw or wherever...

    Cheers! Salut! Sante!

    -
  246. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Globe and Mail loves Syed Abbas and will print any thing he has to say but will not publish any thing that is said against Syed. I wonder why ?

    Are you guys getting paid by Syed and his Islamic Republic of Canadastan ? Are you guys scared that Syed would eventually become the Prime Minister of Islamic Republic of Canadastan and would terminate your jobs ???
  247. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas writes: 'In 31 years (1914-45) over 80,000,000 dead, 6,000,000 gassed.....etc'

    ------------------
    The pot calling the kettle black.....Muslims were the most barbaric and prolific slave traders in the WORLD from 1400 (if not before) to 1900, and, as there is proof to suggest, right up to today.

    As for Muslim atrocities, don't forget the genocide against the Armenians, and that's just the very tip of the ugly, Muslim iceberg.

    ---------------------------------
    'Islam will eat your lunch.'

    Not unless they steal it first, which is really all they know how to do....oh, that and behead people, and cut their hands off, and rape their women, and stone to death RAPE victims......yeah, go Islam (straight to hell, that is)

    ________________________
    'That is what happens when you dump Jesus for Profit.'

    And you are what happens when camel herders have sex with their daughters......
  248. L.B. MURRAY from Canada L.B. MURRAY from Canada from Canada writes: -
    P.S. For those of you who wonder what in the world is the difference between croque-monsieur and croque-madame, it's simply some baguette with ham, cheese, whatever... toasted or roasted...

    LOL

    -You must go to France to find out exactly where this expression comes from...

    -
  249. Nobody's Fool from Thailand writes:

    But hey look at the bright side if you have lots of babies Harper will give you money for 'Beer and Popcorn'. What could be better than that?
  250. Truth Hurts from Canada writes: Syed Abbas: Now, what does the Corporate West control? Now welcome on 9/10th of globe.

    its not about what corporate west control?...its what capitalist economies control?....i guess you are smart enough to figure out the answer

    Lets take this question in a different sense:

    (1)what does the Islamic states control?

    OIL...(hardly...dependent on capitalist market)...land mass (if they can stop fighting with each other) , lot of poor & illiterate people.

    (2)what is the major domestic industry in Islamic states?

    OIL .... not all islamic states have this resource...in fact only couple of islaimc countries have oil....rest absolutely no industry ...

    (3)what is track record of Islamic States in terms of peace & stability?

    The word Peace is nonexistent in islamic dictionary ...they fought so many wars with each other that its crazy.

    (4) what is their track record in developing technology?

    Is it just me or seriously they havent developed any.

    (5)what is their history when it comes to human rights?

    Human rights ...Islamic states havent even heard of this word

    (6) what is their curent status on equality & minority rights?

    I can go on & on ...on.....but

    Bottonline: Islamic States & economics leads to nothing but failure ...failure of people as humans..failure of humans as intelligent beings...

  251. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    harry potter: Greetings

    ' .. Globe and Mail loves Syed Abbas and will print any thing he has to say but will not publish any thing that is said against Syed....'

    G&M will publish the truth if said politely. Try it.

    ' ... Are you guys scared that Syed would eventually become the Prime Minister of Islamic Republic of Canadastan ...'

    Come to think of it will not be a bad idea. After all, Mohammed did make peace between the two Tribes of Aws and Khazraj when he was invited to lead Medina. Who else better than a Mohammedan to settle the 1,000 year old dispute between the English and the French?

    Get a hint from down south. If a Baraka Hussein Obama is welcome, why not an Abdul right here in Canada? An idea whose time has come.
  252. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Truth Hurts: Hi

    ' .... Islamic States & economics leads to nothing but failure ...failure of people as humans..failure of humans as intelligent beings... '

    Etc. etc. etc.

    However, Jihadi Islam did trounce Communism that the West could not. And a mad Muslim did bust the 1823 Monroe Doctrine.

    If you can fight our worst, how will you compete with our best?
  253. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    harry potter: Greetings

    ' .. Globe and Mail loves Syed Abbas and will print any thing he has to say but will not publish any thing that is said against Syed....'

    G&M will publish the truth if said politely. Try it.

    ' ... Are you guys scared that Syed would eventually become the Prime Minister of Islamic Republic of Canadastan ...'

    Come to think of it will not be a bad idea. After all, Mohammed did make peace between the two Tribes of Aws and Khazraj when he was invited to lead Medina. Who else better than a Mohammedan to settle the 1,000 year old dispute between the English and the French?

    ---------------------------------------
    Syed, I am sure that you would feel right at home in Saudi Arabia. Why don't you try it. As for your suggestions, you know here in the 'horrible' west we like to keep the state separated from the church. Especially loonie bin outfits that produce terroristis in droves.
  254. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Greetings to you my friend :

    If a Baraka Hussein Obama is welcome, why not an Abdul right here in Canada?

    What do you think ? Do you think America is ready for a muslim convert ? That would be interesting.

    I am sure that would certainly be a dream come true for you and my only problem with that is along comes poverty. I am yet to come accross a wealthy democratic islamic nation without western influence. You are so keen on converting the whole world to islam. Should in case Canada becomes islamic nation as you wish it to be there would be killing between brothers and ofcourse we will have some sort of Saddam to rule and persecute and my concern is where will Canadastan refugees be going ?
  255. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'If you can fight our worst, how will you compete with our best?'

    -------------------------------

    We'll hide their welfare cheques......
  256. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    jerry johnson: Greetings

    ' ... Syed, I am sure that you would feel right at home in Saudi Arabia...'

    Naw. Was there. They are already making too many Saudis. But here in Canada there is opportunity. They way the locals are not re-producing soon this place will be empty. Someone has to populate it.

    So, take my advice. Start producing some children. Why should my kids be responsible for you in your old age? We do not owe you a living.
  257. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Kay from Canada: It's funny too because in my original comment I had limited my scope to the federal public service alone in which less than 10% make more than 100K out of about 120 000 people. I like your last comment especially because it shows just how many people truly do work on the behalf of Canadians, and therefore how broadly useless the stereotypes employed by some really are. In my view there are good people in every walk of life, but I will say that in the public service that I have met a great many people who pride themselves on working towards the common good, rather than financial gain.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    PK, his numbers just show that for every 3 private sector employees there is 1 public sector emploee. This does NOT show 'how many people truly do work on the behalf of Canadians', as that would assume that all (most) actually do some work which IMO is not true.

    As for the BS about working for 'common good' rather than financial gain, that is truly a riot! Every 3 years public unions hold every one hostage with threats of strikes only to try to extort as much financial gains as possible for the 'brothers and sisters'. Yep, 'common good'.

  258. Old blue from Canada writes: Or maybe it's those who love welfare and gov't handouts versus those who want to work for a living.
  259. Older'n Dirt from Belleville, Canada writes: Immigrants are victims are they. We start them off with about $2,500 a month living expenses and provide housing and training while we pay our seniors that have contributed to the country for 40 or so years a measly grand a month to live on. There's the real victims. The welcome sign for immigrants should include a statement that you will not claim victim status for simply not getting the high paid job you would like to get the day you step ashore. To garner such a status, you must join the Liberal or NDP political parties who will cry foul and victimization on your behalf to purchase your vote. Then alls OK. In closing, tin hats and victim status for all; and, peace and love to all jihadists and the western value loving Khadr family.
  260. Ed Long from white Rock, Canada writes: And wait for oil fired inflation and the end of the U.S. election campaign .... higher interest rates and higher living costs.
  261. Truth Hurts from Canada writes: Syed: 'They way the locals are not re-producing soon this place will be empty. Someone has to populate it.'

    Empty!...33 million & growing is not empty ..its called stable & sound..and the growth is not growth in Islam in Canada ( just to be clear) ...its canadians & other cultures mainly europeans, chinese & indians..islam is such a small part of canada that even if all of them had 8 - 10 kids(which is basically impossible or foolish in an capitalist economy) ..still Islam wont be be Majority in next 100 years.. and then what is the guarantee that all the muslims in canada will believe in same ideology as yours...many new muslims will learn & appreciate capitalist economy.

    Syed: 'So, take my advice. Start producing some children.

    I am looking forward to have atleast 3 or 4 children of my own but its because i just love kids ..not because i am afraid that Islam will take over ..actually thats the least of my concerns....

    Syed: 'Why should my kids be responsible for you in your old age? We do not owe you a living.'

    What happened to 'Frugal to oneself, generous towards other'
    I guess its too easy to talk.
  262. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Truth Hurts:

    ' ... What happened to 'Frugal to oneself, generous towards other'
    I guess its too easy to talk....'

    Generosity does not extend to the Big Business, Bankers, Trade Monopolists, or Judahists, or their supporters a.k.a infidels.

    Islam is not Christianity, loving your enemy and forgiving every sin. Islam first subdues, then forgives. Better keep in mind, as the cops say, you have been read your rights.

    Any other questions?

  263. a salajan from To, Canada writes: Older'n Dirt from Belleville, Canada writes: Immigrants are victims are they. We start them off with about $2,500 a month living expenses and provide housing and training while we pay our seniors that have contributed to the country for 40 or so years a measly grand a month to live on.

    Old man,
    Have you just discovered Internet? Don't believe every mass email you get. Start using your brain.
  264. Chris A from Canada writes: why are immigrants allowed to live in expensive cities? small towns could use the population and workers and it would provide a very affordable location.

    there are cities, that as a non-immigrant, i cannot even afford to live in.
  265. Truth Hurts from Canada writes: syed: 'Generosity does not extend to the Big Business, Bankers, Trade Monopolists, or Judahists, or their supporters a.k.a infidels.

    Islam is not Christianity, loving your enemy and forgiving every sin. Islam first subdues, then forgives. Better keep in mind, as the cops say, you have been read your rights.

    Any other questions?'

    I am done!..Thank you...better use my time for some constructive work...
  266. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    harry potter: Hi

    ' ... You are so keen on converting the whole world to islam....'

    Sorry mate. I am not a Christian. I do not get to heaven for saving others. I get no bonus for converting anyone. In fact, converting others is not possible anyway. It is a personal own choice, not others. Islam does not push to be your brother's keeper. In anycase, Islam is doing fine without my help.

    In Islam, you are responsible for your own salvation. You do Islam or Allah or Mohammed or any other Muslim any favor for converting or not converting.

    It is unwise to look at Islam through Christian glasses.
  267. MKK Flatron from Waterloo, Canada writes: Older'n Dirt from Belleville, Canada writes: Immigrants are victims are they. We start them off with about $2,500 a month living expenses and provide housing and training while we pay our seniors that have contributed to the country for 40 or so years a measly grand a month to live on.

    That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week. Immigrants get next to nothing, period.
  268. Woody Forrest from Out in the Sticks, Canada writes: Chris A from Canada writes: '... why are immigrants allowed to live in expensive cities? small towns could use the population and workers and it would provide a very affordable location. there are cities, that as a non-immigrant, i cannot even afford to live in.'

    Chris, you might be interested to know that China controls the regional movement of citizens. In other words, you'd need something like the dictatorship they have, in order to have the kind of control you'd like to see.

    About living in cities: I make a wonderful salary, but I also choose to not live in Toronto. I couldn't stand to live in a place I could afford there. As for the immigrants, many of them are happy to live (hopefully for a short time) in cramped quarters, considering what it was they left behind.
  269. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Syed Abbas you did not address my concern about Canadastan's refugees.
  270. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Truth Hurts

    ' .... I am done!..Thank you ...'

    Cheers
  271. SN Dream from Canada writes: Older'n Dirt from Belleville, Canada writes: Immigrants are victims are they. We start them off with about $2,500 a month living expenses and provide housing and training while we pay our seniors that have contributed to the country for 40 or so years a measly grand a month to live on. There's the real victims.

    and, peace and love to all jihadists and the western value loving Khadr family.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Immigrants got $2500/month living expense??? You know this thing call Google on the Internet??? Start using it.

    But yes, regarding to the Khadr case, clearly our welfare system is being abused and it's not limited to this case only. We need to limit welfare to those with disability or serious disease. For those who's capable of working, tell them to go find a job.

    You know what's one thing that this country should learn?? SAVE MONEY, stop spending money you don't have and expect your grandchildren to foot the bill!!
  272. globefan Eh from Canada writes: Older n'Dirt from Belleville is so misinformed it's scary.

    Immigrants are exactly that, doctors, lawyers, rich, poor, plumbers, carpenters, seamstresses, researchers, farm laborers, and a million other skills.. but refugees from countries where they remove the female clitoris or torture people to death..are occasionally given refuge and a helping hand, in this wonderful ,rich and compassionate country that is Canada.

    How the planet takes care of its poor is an indication of how well civilisation works or does not work.

    Sorry that Older n'Dirt is so hard done by in Canada.
  273. SN Dream from Canada writes: Chris A from Canada writes: why are immigrants allowed to live in expensive cities? small towns could use the population and workers and it would provide a very affordable location.

    there are cities, that as a non-immigrant, i cannot even afford to live in.
    ------------------------------------------------
    You should ask the question, why people don't want to live in your town.

    Besides, not all place in the city are expensive to live it.
  274. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    harry potter

    ' .... Should in case Canada becomes islamic nation ...'

    Islam is a borderless faith. There is no concept of 'country' or 'nation' in Islam. The faith stresses the Individual, not family like Christianity, or Tribe as Judahism.

    Canada can not become 'Islamic Nation'. To become a Muslims you have to confess. How will Canada confess?

    I presume you mean if Canada becomes majority Muslim. Well, all I can say is that it will become more efficient. The chasm between the rich and poor will lessen, or at least will be irrelevant. Frugality towards yourself and generosity towards others is a better spreader of wealth than the present Canadian taxation/equalization system.

    In every 'Islamic country' (your terminology) including oil rich ones, the wealth distribution is broad. Most of the Islamic lands were water poor, agriculture poor, and lived by trade, but there was never a famine. People shared. Even now, one month a year the rich and the poor alike fast.
  275. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: The good deeds of Islam in India:

    'Hindus have been historically persecuted during Islamic rule of the Indian subcontinent and during the Goa Inquisition. In modern times, Hindus in Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangladesh have also suffered persecution. The Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent led to widespread carnage because Muslims regarded the Hindus as infidels and therefore slaughtered and converted millions of Hindus.'

    'The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period.'

    As Braudel put it about the Muslim conquerors: 'The levies it had to pay were so crushing that one catastrophic harvest was enough to unleash famines and epidemics capable of killing a million people at a time. Appalling poverty was the constant counterpart of the [Muslim] conquerors' opulence.'

    'Backward caste saints like Namadeva were arrested, while women like Kanhopata were forced to commit suicide [by the Muslim invaders].'

    Prof. K.S. Lal, suggests a calculation in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India which estimates that between the years 1000 AD and 1500 AD the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million.

    So, Mr. Abbas...this is Muslim cruelty from just ONE region and it far outstrips the sufferings of WWI and WWII combined which, by the way, involved the participation of dozens of countries....not just one group terrorizing another.

    Yup, the religion of peace alright.

    You sir are THE single biggest and worst hypocrite I have had the displeasure of encountering.
  276. Rick C from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Islam is a borderless faith. There is no concept of 'country' or 'nation' in Islam.' LOL...yeah tell that to the people of Iran.
  277. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Syed what I wanted to say was that most of the refugees from all over world (80% of refugees are muslim) come here for shelter and enjoy the benefits meant for tax payers of this nation and talk as if they have nothing to do with tax payers money. Most of these people think it is liberals who provide them these benefits. In addition if Canada becomes islamic nation and become poor where will these refugees along with Canadastan's refugees go. I am sure USA not going to accept any of these people and europe hardly has any space and tolerance that the Canadians have.

    My final statement is that one should be grateful for what the nation is providing them with specially when they are here to take advantage of the benefits. By the way Syed your comments are not going to be very helpful to your community (as stated earlier if you check the beneficiaries list of this nation you you will too many Khan's and Butt's). So you would want to be a little careful.
  278. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ed Lewis: Greetings

    I am familiar with the arguments you put forward.

    However, one stat debunks this theory.

    In 6 centuries of Islamic rule plus 1 of English (1180-1950), Islam in Greater India (today's Pakistan, India, Bangladesh) went from zero to some 70 million out of 450 million total, i.e. 15%.

    However, since 1950 to present, the Muslims have become 500 million out of 1400 million total, over 30%.

    Now, I have not lately read any stories of forced conversions in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Perhaps you can enlighten me if there have been any in India in the last 50 years.

    Will be waiting for your stats.

    Unless you accept my counter hypothesis that the 'Muslim' Kings for 7 centuries prevented prosletyzing as they did in Syria in the 8th century where people were flogged in public for converting to Islam. They were accused of doing so for economic reasons.
  279. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: The Good Deeds of Islam, Part II:

    MURDER OF THEIR OWN

    'Sources claim that when Timur conquered Persia, Iraq and Syria, the civilian population was decimated. In the city of Isfahan, he ordered the building of a pyramid of 70,000 human skulls, from those that his army had beheaded, and a pyramid of some 20,000 skulls was erected outside of Aleppo. Timur herded thousands of citizens of Damascus into the Cathedral Mosque before setting it aflame, and had 70,000 people beheaded in Tikrit, and 90,000 more in Baghdad. As many as 17 million people may have died from his conquests.'

    SLAVERY

    'The Muslim was most active in West Asia, North Africa and East Africa. and by the end of the 19th century such activity had reached a low ebb. In the early 20th century (post World War I) slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France. However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the African republics of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Sudan.'

    Even better, Mohammed was a slave trader and also captured slaves for sale.

    Then, we have the Armenian Genocide: 1.5 million Armenians murdered by Muslims.
  280. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    harry potter:

    ' ... Syed your comments are not going to be very helpful to your community (as stated earlier if you check the beneficiaries list of this nation you you will too many Khan's and Butt's). So you would want to be a little careful...'

    As one poster wrote yesterday, most of the welfare receipients are White males, despite being in the minority in Toronto now. None of the panhandler I encounter downtown are neither colored nor have an accent nor speak French or Portuguese or Ukrainians. I would presume their typical names to be Potter or Smith.

    I suggest you check the records. You are living in 1960s. This is Toronto 2008.
  281. SN Dream from Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    I presume you mean if Canada becomes majority Muslim. Well, all I can say is that it will become more efficient. The chasm between the rich and poor will lessen, or at least will be irrelevant. Frugality towards yourself and generosity towards others is a better spreader of wealth than the present Canadian taxation/equalization system.

    In every 'Islamic country' (your terminology) including oil rich ones, the wealth distribution is broad. Most of the Islamic lands were water poor, agriculture poor, and lived by trade, but there was never a famine. People shared. Even now, one month a year the rich and the poor alike fast.
    --------------------------------------------
    Great, so that's mean welfare and aid are completely useless for Muslim right? We should stop the spending if that's the case then.
  282. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ed Lewis

    Thanks for the stats. If you add all that and multiply by 10, Muslims have no hopes of matching our Christian friends who get the Gold.

    120,000,000 in 31 years (1914-45)
    6,000,000 gassed of a different race
    1,000,000 nuked in Japan

    But allow me to let you in a secret. This Christian/Corporate Western blood bath is going to be put to a stop soon.

    As I said before, Mohammed was the only person in history to have routed the combined forces of Big Business, Bankers, Trade Monopolists, and Judahists.

    The curtain rises for an Encore soon.
  283. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'blah, blah, blah'

    ----------------------

    Sorry Syed, the info is readily available...you obviously have a computer, go find it.

    Bottom line is that Islam is AS VIOLENT or MORE VIOLENT than any other religion and has killed, tortured, and enslaved as many or more people than any other 'group', be it religious or otherwise.

    Your incessant rantings about 'the religion of peace' are so full of lies, inconsistencies and twisted interpretations as to render every word you type laughable.

    A religion can be judged in part by who they help and how much help they offer. So, it is interesting that the vast bulk of foreign aid and assistance going to both Muslim and non-Muslim regions comes from the west. NOT from oil-rich Muslim countries and, frankly, not from Muslim countries at all. The only time money is raised by Muslims is to go to groups looking to murder and torture innocent people on some twisted belief that the Koran requires the destruction of west.....and all of this stems from a super-hyper inferiority complex carried by the Muslim world....everything bad is the fault of others...if Muslims suffer it is not because of their actions, it can only be caused by the 'evil' infidels and/or Jews.

    Get your head out of your a$$ and recognize that you have been deceived and scammed by the fiction that is the Koran and by the murdering slave-lord that was Mohammed.
  284. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Syed Abbas writes and I quote 'Islamic country' (your terminology) including oil rich ones, the wealth distribution is broad. Most of the Islamic lands were water poor, agriculture poor, and lived by trade, but there was never a famine'.

    Say that to Somalia and most of the African muslim nations and besides that poverty is part and parcel of 90% of islamic nations and those who (rich islamic nations) have hardly bother about these poor islamic nations. If you are so confident about sharing and loving then why so many muslim refugees end up in Canada, USA and Europe and why not rich Middle Eastern Nations ? Do you want to know the truth and it will really hurt you and that is rich muslim nations such as Saudi treats people from Pakistan, Bangladesh and others as slaves and you guys know it well.
  285. Stand up for Social Justice The Canadian Way from Canada writes: Friendly Anglo from Ottawa, Canada writes: There are lots of jobs out there. Granted, they are minimum wage, but we all have to start somewhere. That is the point though. We all have to start.
    I know mental illness is an issue with some of the homeless and probably a lot of them had crappy childhoods. (me too, by the way). A lot of kids prefer to live outside their homes, because there are rules at home and they don't want the rules, so they leave. Encouraging begging isn't going to help. Most could get a job if they wanted, but they don't want to. Rules again. People work the 'system' and leave less for the people who really need it. What ever happened to workfare by the way. I always thought that was a good idea. ======================================================By the way, the oppressive workfare polices are in effect. You see not everyone who may need to access OW, is a loser, like you like to portray. I wonder what you would think of our system, if you actually had to access it.
  286. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    SN Dream

    ' .... Great, so that's mean welfare and aid are completely useless for Muslim right? We should stop the spending if that's the case then...'

    Few of the immigrants get welfare. Muslims even less so. The Immigration system is good at preventing welfare types from landing.

    Sure, you can stop all payments to Muslims if you find so. In fact shut down the Welfare system altogether (and see where the howls of protest come from and in what language).

    I am not sure about Canada, but in the USA, Pakistani-Americans were the largest contributers to Dubya campaign. Some welfare recepients!!!
  287. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Syed writes I suggest you check the records. You are living in 1960s. This is Toronto 2008. Which incidentally has majority of muslims and not white males as you stated.
  288. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ed Lewis

    ' .... the vast bulk of foreign aid and assistance going to both Muslim and non-Muslim regions comes from the west. NOT from oil-rich Muslim countries and, frankly, not from Muslim countries at all...'

    The ranking of the Aid donors are as follows

    1. Arab oil states
    2. Japan and far east
    3. Europe.
    4. North America.

    What the Corporate West provides is moslty military aid or useless outdated weapons.

    During the first Gulf war the US Army made $200,000,000,000 in profit from Saudi/Kuwaitis. The armaments to the Afghans to get the Soviet menace off the West's neck were paid by the Saudis (Western complaint - can't do it, against the law).

    Do you want to discuss or simply win an argument with fabricated stats, just as your top honcho fabricated the WMD evidence and his poodle paddled it the world over.
  289. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'The curtain rises for an Encore soon.'

    ---------------------------

    Syed, you are a funny man....you should check the floor around you as I believe you have a chromosome missing.....

    As for the curtain lifting, I suspect we will be treated to a comedy, as funny as the 1000 years of failures and defeats endured by Muslims the world over. My friend, you and your 'kind' hit bottom and began digging long, long ago. There is no rope long enough to get your 'religion' and its adherents out of the hole.

    In any event, the fact you are here and not high-styling it in a stone-age Muslim nation says a lot about you....it also likely feeds your inferiority complex, because in order to survive you have to live among those you hate so much, as your own 'kind' cannot give you even the most basic requirements for something resembling a 'normal' life.

    Although I don't believe in either heaven or hell, I suspect that if they do exist you will be in the warmer place, likely as one of Satan's 'fluffers'.....enjoy!
  290. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas: Again, you manufacture 'truths'.

    Here is a REAL listing of the countries that give the most in food, medicine, agricultural assistance, etc. (and DOES NOT include weaponry) - the numbers to the right are in millions of 2007 US dollars:

    USA 21,197
    Germany 11,048
    France 8,918
    UK 8,839
    Japan 7,824
    Netherlands 5,621
    Spain 5,103
    Sweden 3,853
    Canada 3,585
    Italy 3,509
    Norway 3,349
    Denmark 2,302
    Australia 2,145
    Belgium 1,756
    Austria 1,613
    Switzerland 1,596
    Ireland 1,068
    Finland 880
    Greece 446
    Portugal 359
    Luxembourg 325
    New Zealand 268

    So, you are at least a persistent and stubborn liar, if nothing at all.
  291. J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: Please don't distort my analysis. My number show no such thing. There are 23 million tax filing Canadians and around 18 million who file taxable income returns. Of the 6 or so million who file non-taxable returns, many are students who earn income but at a level low enough to avoid paying taxes or are university students whose income tax threshold is higher due to various deductions. Another, smaller portion are senior citizens whose income is entirely derived from dividends and thus pay no taxes on said income, if it's below $49K of dividend earned income.

    Second, the 3,199,000 person strong public sector is not full time equivalents, a number are part-time employees and thus do not bear the full weight of a public sector salary which averages about $48,000 by the way.

    As I've commented before about these numbers, the university profs, the teachers, the nurses and hospital staff etc. while being supported on the public dime are not an economic drag as some like to portray the public sector because if instead these things were privately funded in Canada, you would a) still have to pay for them anyway, it would just be out of after tax income, instead of before tax income b) have to pay more to cover the profit aspect of it c) not benefit since the cost would be higher but the average quality would not.

    If we ignore that portion of the public sector, since you'd pay for it one way or another, thus is comes out of your income, and we ignore the government run businesses, which the same argument applies to, then you are left with the true civil servant 'bureaucrats', which total about 1,050,000 people across the entire country, including politicians, tax collectors, police, fireman, border services, MNR employees, etc. There is good value for money and the ratio is more like one 'true' civil servant for every 22 tax filers or 1 for every 17 income earners.
  292. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Ed Lewis I did not see any muslim nation in the list. Did you deliberatly delete these helpful nations in order to hurt Syed ?
  293. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ed Lewis:

    ' ... Syed Abbas: Again, you manufacture 'truths'...'

    All oil producing countries give aid indirectly, through oil subsidies. Even Chavez offered to give oil to the US poor through his US chain CITGO.

    The volume of oil subsidies far outweigh the Western 'Aid' that you tout. Moreover, this aid is real and total and no strings attached.

    Western 'Aid'is mostly buyback, conditional on buying back services and products of donor experts at inflated prices. Giving from one hand and taking from other.

    The Western 'Aid' is so 'valuable' in the end that Sharif of Pakistan has declared that Pakistan can do without it. Only a fool would refuse real aid, but Sharif knows what this 'Aid' means.
  294. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Ed Lewis I did not see any muslim nation in the list. Did you deliberatly delete these helpful nations in order to hurt Syed ?'

    -------------

    Nope. That list is exactly as I found it and can be located in multiple formats simply by Googling it. His list is a COMPLETE fiction.
  295. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'All oil producing countries give aid indirectly, through oil subsidies. Even Chavez offered to give oil to the US poor through his US chain CITGO.'

    Syed, again you are manufacturing your 'facts'. But, I give you an 'A' for persistence.

    But, you keep saying it and, eventually, someone besides yourself may actually believe it!
  296. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Ed Lewis I know that my man. Syed has his own way of putting things together and you will find those details in his research books.
  297. Robert Rivers from France writes: If you want to complain about taxes try being a Canadian living in France the tax rate is around 20%. I predict in the next ten years that the instability that is just rising will fall out and become crisis base don the fact the government wants to change one aspect of a socialist system without considering the other points... sounds familiar?

    A 1,2,3% income tax reducation will not solve anything and if you believe that then I am sure you are the dimwit who votes for the politicization who says 'I'll cut taxes' ... it is more complex than just cutting taxes it is a reform of the social system. Poverty begins to end by helping oneself, lack of motivation because of social system pressures only works for the one or two times you are down... after that ... stop complaining and try again.
  298. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ed Lewis and Harry Potter:

    Venezuela gives $2 billions to Cuba every year. I do not see them on your list.

    China has become the largest aid giver to Africa. Where is it on your list.

    Saudis provide Pakistan and a few other countries oil at cut-rate prices. I guess that is not called aid, because it is not channeled through the World Bank and IMF.

    Here is a Westerner wailing about how Saudi, Chinese, and Venezuelan aid is cutting Western aid to bits.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3732

    Enjoy.
  299. Hydrogen Bob from Toronto, Canada writes: Where do all these posters get the data that recently arrived immigrants are uneducated. I have worked in the IT industry for over 20 years and I am surrounded by highly skilled, highly educated immigrants. And so what if an immigrant is uneducated? My in-laws are such, but they managed to carve out a nice middle class life. My MBA wife's cousins includes lawyers, dentists, orthodontists, and other professionals, all the children of uneducated immigrants. Except for native peoples, we are all decendants of immigrants. People who choose to be Canadians, and bring into the world new Canadians are all right by me!
  300. Hail to the Conservatives ! from London, Canada writes: Poor = Lazy - hmm... maybe not always correct - could be stupid too
  301. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: JK, There are 11 million private sector employees and 3.4 million public sector employees(http://www.statscan.ca/english/Subjects/Labour/LFS/lfs-en.htm). Irrespective of how you cut it that is 1 public employee for every 3.2 private sector employees. You can spin this stat anyway you like. Its is your constitutional right. However this does not change the ratio. Furthermore, I woud point out that the ratio is HIGHER in Canada than it is in suposedly socialist France! All the best!
  302. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Some info on Muslim 'foreign aid':

    'One feature of aid from the three major Arab donors, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the U.A.E., is that they give most of it (around 85 %) bilaterally, mostly in the form of loans, with a large share (about 50 % of national and multilateral Arab aid) going to Arab countries.'

    Wow....LOANS....how generous!

    'Other motives important to Arab donors seems to be to support their own commercial interests'

    Wow....I thought Syed said Muslims/Arabs were against the 'big banks' and so on......I guess not.

    'total aid disbursed by OPEC donor countries between 1960 and 2004 is at least $240 billion'

    Hmmm...over 40 years ALL the OPEC countries donated (to other MUSLIM countries only) $240 billion (and, contrary to what Syed has said, they ONLY donate cash or food, not oil). That is about what the US has given in aid in the last 10 years...wow, those Sheikhs really dug deep, huh?

    So, Syed, keep spouting your misinformation. However, we westerners are smarter than you and we can spot a lie when we see one.
  303. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: 3.4 million public sector employees in a 33 million country. Is not this too much. Now I know why we pay so much taxes.
  304. Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed, we are talking about western aid versus Muslim aid....since when did Venezuela become a Muslim nation?
  305. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: 3.4 million public sector employees in a 33 million country. Is not this too much. Now I know why we pay so much taxes.

    -------------------------------------------
    harry, we pay so much because that is 'the Canadian way'. Suposedly we like to be taxed so that we are 'given' services 'for free'.
  306. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: Syed it is time for you to stop BSing and be realistic and accept the fact that muslim nations and people do have problems.
  307. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    harry potter:

    ' ... Syed it is time for you to stop BSing and be realistic ..'

    And one more thing. While the Western 'Aid' given through the IMF and the World Bank is mostly loans, the aid given by the oil producers is outright gift. So is much aid given by China.

    Next time you go to renew your mortgage, do not forget to kiss the banker's hand for having given you substantial aid.
  308. J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: You ignore those who are self employed, so read the numbers again. Trust me jerry I can recite the numbers backwards and forewards and know exactly what I'm talking about. The LFS has the numbers at 17.1 million workers in Canada. 3.2 million are public sector but as I pointed out, not all public sector employees are the same. Teachers, profs, nurses, etc are classified as public sector but either way you would have to pay for them and thus they should be classed differently. Those who are truly civil servants are about 1.05 million, which is back to the ratios I mentioned, but go ahead and distort the numbers again. In fact the LFS has public adminstration at 0.92 million.

    Second jerry Canada's number of public sector civil servants is comparable to France, the US, the UK, etc, when an apples to apples comparison is done and trust me jerry I've actually read the studies and done the analysis, so I KNOW it is TRUE and I know what I'm talking about.

    You can start with the following paper for your education, which provides a comparison of Canada and the US. Check out Chart 4.
  309. Oh Really from Canada writes: Globe trying to guilt us all again on immigration. Read the StatsCan material yourself (especially the longitudinal immigration studies). Here is the real fact base:

    > The low-income rate (LICO) rate amongst Canadian born has been falling.
    > The low-income rate amongst any given cohort of immigrants falls the longer they stay in Canada.
    > The net LICO rate for Canada rises BECAUSE WE KEEP IMPORTING MORE POVERTY THROUGH ADDITIONAL IMMIGRATION.

    Now, the Globe would have us feel guilty about this. Why? For all we know, even the new immigrants have a higher standard of living than the past groups.

    BTW, don't believe me: read it yourself from StatsCan: ''The rise in the low-income rates in the three major Canadian cities, and in Ontario and B.C. during the 1990s in particular, was largely concentrated among the immigrant population. Basically, low-income rates have been falling over the past two decades among the Canadian born, and rising among immigrants.' [They go on to explain, that is new immigrants, existing immigrant low-income rate falls too.]

    CANADA IS A POVERTY REDUCING COUNTRY FOR ALL WHO LIVE HERE (BOTH IMMIGRANT AND CANADIAN BORN ALIKE). Don't blame Canada for accepting new poor immigrants. That is turning our generosity (free education, medicare, welfare) on its head. Have we really all become so silly as to accept this. It's unbelievable how many of you argue from the left with no facts at all.

    The Globe: 'Census data released Thursday show recent immigrants victims of widening income disparity as middle class stagnates' Victims. What garbage.
  310. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ed Lewis

    ' .... Syed, we are talking about western aid versus Muslim aid....since when did Venezuela become a Muslim nation? ...'

    Venezuela gives over $2 billion annual aid to Cuba. It would have placed it between Australia and Belgium on your bogus list.

    It is not there. Nor are the Muslim nations. Nor is China.

    I wonder why 9/10 of the globe has become allergic to the Corporate West. It is because they know real aid from Banker's aid, one to make them permanently dependent. They know that Corporate aid goes to buy the dictators who do the Bankers' bidding.

    Some 'Aid'.
  311. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: good night every one.
  312. P Martin from St. John's, Canada writes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadiancivilservice

    See if that helps...
  313. Alistair MacGregor from Cowichan Bay, Canada writes: Time to put the NDP in power.
  314. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    harry potter

    Take care. Sweet dreams.
  315. E. Biggs from Canada writes: If anybody is interested in facts and that is by no means a given, then you might get a copy of Mel. Hurtigs new book in which he gives chapter and verse on Canada and the deteriorating position in the world.

    I just heard him interviewed on CBC television and in his book he gives the sources for the stats he provides.

    For a buy like Hurtig who is about at staunch Canadian as you can get to come out with this book has to give you pause for thought.

    One stat is that we rank 57th in the world on education funding and their are a host of other sobering stats.

    He says that we have been in a steady decling for over 25 years and it is getting worse.

  316. Oh Really from Canada writes: Allstair,
    Show some intelligence and address my point:
    > The low-income rate (LICO) rate amongst Canadian born has been falling.
    > The low-income rate amongst any given cohort of immigrants falls the longer they stay in Canada.
    > The net LICO rate for Canada rises BECAUSE WE KEEP IMPORTING MORE POVERTY THROUGH ADDITIONAL IMMIGRATION.
    So the logical way the NDP would reduce the LICO rate is to then cut immigration? That actually would work.
  317. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: You ignore those who are self employed, so read the numbers again. Trust me jerry I can recite the numbers backwards and forewards and know exactly what I'm talking about.

    ------------------------------------------------ JK, you assume that the 'self-employed' are private employees, when in fact MOST of them are temp workers with the public sector. As you say you know the numbers, I am certain you know that one too, but seem to brush it aside. When splitting the self-employed between public and private sector the situation is grimmer. As am sure you know we have about 3 times more 'self-employed' per capita than the US has. I am sure that you know that is not because we are 3 times more entrepreneurial.

    You seem to seem to split between 'teachers, profs, etc' and bureaucrats as if it would make a difference. The issue in both cases is value for money. With neither group that can be ascertained as there is no mechanism for it.

    As for comparing apples for apples, I remember reading a StatsCan paper on the average salaries in the US federal govmt and its Canadian counterpart. In the US the salary was a lot higher and the reason was that they have a lot more technical personnel while we have more secretaries. This goes back to value. They hire because they need them while we hire them because ....

    I wouldn't have a problem with govmnt spending if something tangible would come out of it. I wouldn't have a problem paying PK to decode communications but I have a problem paying him to post on the G&M every day 9-5 and then go home. In case one there is societal value in the other its just overhead.

    To sum it up, I am glad that you are 'in the know'. However assuming that other are not 'educated' on the subject is a bit too bureacratic, don't you think.

  318. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ed Lewis

    Some more quotes from your 8:42 pm post

    ' .... Western donors have a long history of pursuing tied aid and giving more aid to countries that are major importers of that donor country's goods ...'

    Talk about philanthropy. 'I will give you $20 if you sleep with me' would classify as 'Aid' given to the oldest profession, according to IMF/World Bank/CIDA definition of Aid.
  319. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ed Lewis

    Another thing that you forgot to quote from your own report.

    ' ..... Arab donors have not participated in the aid policy debate that has been so important to Western donors. This probably reflects the Arab view that recipient countries should be allowed to choose their own development path and not be obstructed by 'imperialist' ideas from donor countries....'
  320. Ron Pacific from Vancouver, Canada writes: The fact that racism still exists in Canada is confirmed by the postings on this board stereotyping immigrants as welfare case refugees draining the system at $2500 per month of government money. Nothing can be farther from the truth. The majority of new immigrants slave away at $8 -$12 hr. jobs even though they might have PhD's - and they probably get fewer government subsidies than the average white person. Hardly any of the beggers on the streets in Vancouver look like non-white immigrants. I would say that any of the people on this board slagging immigrants wouldn't think of taking on the jobs that these new Canadians take on while still getting heaps of abuse from anti-immigrant, racists. I believe most refugee claimants are thrilled to be here and happy to be doing the jobs you racists wouldn't like to do. To say that the Khadr family represents the typical immigrant is like saying Paul Bernardo represents the typical white guy and so the comparison is truly odious. I'm sorry but you racists need to get out of your bubble and talk to the immigrants who serve you coffee and hand over your timbits. Ask them about their experiences and tell me that they are privileged or somehow leaches on the system.
  321. Hugh May from Khon Kaen, Thailand writes: Syed, in my opinion, the fact that you have been continually posting between 9:47 AM and 9:37 PM speak volumes about your state of mind. Have a job? I do thank you for giving me many laughs this fine morning.
  322. Oh Really from Canada writes: Ron Pacific,
    Actually, most immigrants (56%) are not working at all:
    http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/89-614-XIE/2005001/tables/table8.5.htm
    Depends on if you mean landed immigrants or a broader definition. Short on facts again on the left.

    Nobody has addressed the key StatsCan information yet ...
    > The low-income rate (LICO) rate amongst Canadian born has been falling.
    > The low-income rate amongst any given cohort of immigrants falls the longer they stay in Canada.
    > The net LICO rate for Canada rises BECAUSE WE KEEP IMPORTING MORE POVERTY THROUGH ADDITIONAL IMMIGRATION.
    Given that we provide welfare, free education, and free medicare to the new immigrants, where are the victims in any of this? Where is the problem from the left's point of view?
  323. Ermos Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: My parents were poor their whole lives and I was brought up in a lower middle class family. I made a decision that I would not let myself dwell in poverty as my parents did.

    After starting my own business and working 70 hour weeks including weekends for 8 years I am proud to say that I would be considered among the top 1% of earners in Canada.

    The moral of this story is that for many (not all), it takes a shift in their attitude to lift them out of poverty and into prosperity.

    Instead of asking for a hand out, more people should help themselves.
  324. Gary Thomson from Canada writes: So you guys are still prattling on about immigration. You have have allowed yourself to be successfully divided up and pitted against yourselves rather than addressing the real cause of this growing economic disparity, the successfull co-option of the managerial class by the small, relatively small that is, group of mega-rich families that own most the wealth in this country. The differences between and interests of our immigrant and Canadian born citizens pale to insignifigance when stacked against the conflicting interests of the top 1% of the top 1% of top earners in Canada versus the 95% of the rest of us at the bottom of the heap.
  325. Oh Really from Canada writes: Gary, You don't understand, there is no problem. Canadian born and immigrant cohorts alike have been experiencing falling LICO rates. What economic problem are we talking about??? See my previous post.
  326. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Hugh May: Greetings

    ' .... Syed, in my opinion, the fact that you have been continually posting between 9:47 AM and 9:37 PM speak volumes about your state of mind. Have a job? I do thank you for giving me many laughs this fine morning....'

    Much obliged. When you have your own small consulting business, sometimes you work 90 hours weeks, others you wait. At the present I am supervising some badly needed repairs at home. What better than take on some posters and separate chaffe from the wheat.

    Much obliged about the laughs. Live is serious business, but you can not take yourself too seriously.

    Cheers
  327. J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: Your comment smacks of so much cynicism and one thing I hate, the constant bash Canada, elevate the US mentality of some self loathing Canadians.

    Canadian public sector employees are not all secretaries. I would love for you to provide even the slightest bit of support for this but alas I wont hold my breath. I'd like you to provide support for your comment about the self-employed being really public sector as well which is complete garbage. By the way, before you assume that I'm a public sector employee, I will inform you I am not. Instead I'm a highly paid member of the private sector.

    Actually jerry it is quite relevant to the apples to apples comparison the occupations of the classes of public sector. The reason I mentioned the number of tax filers in my first comment is that this always comes down to people talking about value for dollar and the 'true' tax payers supporting the public sector employees. Thus the metric should be all tax filers then, including those not working but still paying tax, i.e. senior citizens, people earning income from investments, etc. Moreover I separate out teachers, professors, nurses, and the like because you would pay for them either way, be they private or public sector employees. The money still comes from you to get the services provided by these people and in most cases, they aren't optional, such as in the case of public education or nursing staff at hospitals. Since some nations have them classified as private sector and people pay out of pocket similar if not far larger amounts of money (eg: US per capita health care), it is HIGHLY pertinent.

    So if one strips them out then one is left with the truly public sector employees and bureaucrats, things that people wouldn't voluntarily choose to pay for (police, fireman, defence, politicians, and support staff, tax collectors, border services, judges, etc). Are you suggesting all of these people are secretaries?
  328. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ron Pacific: Greetings

    ' ... The fact that racism still exists in Canada is confirmed by the postings ..'

    I once watched a PBS documentary on an African rhinocerous colony's long march to a new water pond. One pregnant mother fell behind. When she arrived at the pond with her little newlyborn two days later all the water areas had been accounted for.

    A battle raged for the next three days between this new arrival and the 2 days earlier arrivals. But then she was accepted as a part of the herd.

    Somehow I understood for the first time the new immigrant / old immigrant mentality.

    Every new immigrant is that two days later arrival rhino mother. One has to fight to get accepted.

    Racism, ah yes, that is another problem.
  329. Gary Thomson from Canada writes: Oh Really(10:01): I'm afraid it is you that doesn't understand. You can't see the forest for the trees. You can quibble about stats on immigrants and LICO or what ever you please, and you do make some good, small points. However, what should jump out to anyone reading this census info is that virtually 100% of the increased wealth created by our, until recently red hot, economy has been appropriated by what Statscan calls the top 10%ile of earners. If you look more closely you'll see that most of this increased wealth has gone to a small fraction of the top 1% of wealthy Canadians. The rest of you are arguing about the crumbs.
  330. Raymond P from Canada writes: The goal of globalization is to have 6.5 billion people earning $2 per day and the rest making a billion dollars a week. After reading posts at the globe the number of people who want salaries reduced is phenomenal. Those pesky overpaid teachers, those self-centred autoworkers, lazy government employees, rude postal workers, useless hospital workers, fat a$$ bus drivers, etc. Just because you've had one negative experience at the post office is not reason to cut all wages. Just because a friend's brother's uncle knows an autoworker who's lazy isn't a cause to make unions illegal. Canada, prior to WW2, had virtually no middle class. There was a wealthy elite few and millions unemployed and underemployed. This is where Canada is headed if we don't smarten up.
  331. Benjamin Frankling from Canada writes: Ermos Smith: Wow, the top 1% of earners in Canada. Aren't you lucky to have had poor parents. Aren't you happy they didn't shift their attitudes, asked for handouts and didn't help themselves? You never would have made it to the top without your poor parents. By the way, why were they poor?
  332. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Raymond P: Greetings

    ' .... Canada, prior to WW2, had virtually no middle class. There was a wealthy elite few and millions unemployed and underemployed. This is where Canada is headed if we don't smarten up...'

    In a Democracy, middle class is an anomaly, not the norm. Corporate Capitalism does not like the middle class since it can form small businesses that are efficient, innovative, nimble, dynamic, unpredictable. Then the Middle class also likes Human Rights, prefers Free Trade, is peaceful. Corporate big business likes to maximize profits through market and trade control that ultimately require violence and war.

    Democracy is in fact the rule of the Demos, the 5-10% monied males who rule over the women, plebs, helots, and slaves. We are indeed heading that way.

    And what do you precisely mean by 'smarten up'?
  333. Raymond P from Canada writes: Syed: Perhaps 5-10% was the norm but in the new democracy it will be 1-2% of monied males. I used 'smarten up' to bring attention to the what we may lose if we don't pay heed. It took centuries, if not millenia, to create a middle class. In a few decades it may be undone and Canada will be the worse for it.
  334. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: Your comment smacks of so much cynicism and one thing I hate, the constant bash Canada, elevate the US mentality of some self loathing Canadians. Canadian public sector employees are not all secretaries. I would love for you to provide even the slightest bit of support for this but alas I wont hold my breath. I'd like you to provide support for your comment about the self-employed being really public sector as well which is complete garbage. By the way, before you assume that I'm a public sector employee, I will inform you I am not. Instead I'm a highly paid member of the private sector.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    JK, maybe you would like to talk to the StatsCanada people that wrote those papers. Waving the flag is really really weak. It is true they did not use 'secretary' but rather 'clerical personnel' so there you have it. I hope you feel better. Apologies to all 'clerical personnel' that is in a non-secretarial job. I will dig up the papers (I have them stored locally but need to search a bit) and post the titles.

    BTW, it was you who made the comparison between the public sectors in US, Britain and France and Canada. As I have knowledge about the US case FROM STATSCAN I've posted that and you come back with silly retorts about 'elevation' of US. Good one! It seems that you did not get the gist of my point: you compare NUMBERS while StatsCan compared CATEGORIES of federales. You seem to imply that aggregate employment is all that counts. I disagree! As a 'higly paid private sector' employee you would have known that. I hope your employer doen't just hire for the sake of it without regard of what the position's usefulness. If you guys actuallly do that and are publically traded let me know.

  335. Denis Hull from Canada writes: The times of Charles Dickens approaches, observe and lament the fall of the middle class for it will be a long time before the middle class reaches it's post war prominence of the 1950's and the rich want to keep it that way.. We have a Walmart society.. Welcome..
  336. Benjamin Frankling from Canada writes: Syed: not heading, we're there.
  337. Oh Really from Canada writes: Gary, I understand your point, but some of that is just envy speaking. If the LICO rate is falling for all groups living here... isn't that the objective... to foster a situation where we are progressing to the point where every group is having few poor (i.e., the situation we have today with falling LICO's for all cohorts of people)? Why envy the top earners? This is not a communist country.
  338. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Kay from Canada writes: Moreover I separate out teachers, professors, nurses, and the like because you would pay for them either way, be they private or public sector employees.

    -------------------------------------
    Yes and no. First, I would not pay for teachers if I home school my kids for example. We could live on my husbands' salary if taxes would be reduced to extract all the 'teachers and professors' and other publi 'services' that I have 'free' access to. With two masters and a phd I think I am somewhat qualified to educate them for a while at least as well as the 'teachers and professors'.

    Second, the question is HOW MUCH would I pay? Maybe more, for the ones that I would like to be my kids teachers and a lot less for the ones that are currently their teachers.

    So, please excuse me if I beg to differ on your segregation of the public sector.
  339. Ermos Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: Benjamin Frankling from Canada writes: Ermos Smith: Wow, the top 1% of earners in Canada. Aren't you lucky to have had poor parents. Aren't you happy they didn't shift their attitudes, asked for handouts and didn't help themselves? You never would have made it to the top without your poor parents. By the way, why were they poor?
    ====================================

    They were poor because they didn't know any better. Too many people become comfortable. Refuse to take risks. Want the unions and the government to take care of them.

    It's amazing what one can accomplish if they put their minds to it.

    Even though your post smacks of sarcasm, in a way, I am successful today in part because my parents were poor. I saw how they lived and knew that I wanted better. It drives me still to this day.

    So go ahead and be sarcastic and cynical. I make more money in a year than my parents made in a decade of combined income.

    I'm not boasting, just stating the facts.
  340. The Last Honest Conservative from Western, Canada writes:
    WASHINGTON (CNN) — A new poll suggests that George W. Bush is the most unpopular president in modern American history.
    A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Thursday indicates that 71 percent of the American public disapprove of how Bush his handling his job as president.

    ............... our Americans cousins are finally wising up
  341. William Gloucester from Canada writes: RE: Sayed.

    I'm just glad that people like Sayed make my job so easy, and that is to reveal that the aims of Islam and pakistani nationals such as himself is militant and culturally subversive. I agree with him when he admits that Islam is based on power and majority rule and that Canada would hypothetically lose its treasured culture of plurality and freedom for all.

    The battle lines are being drawn in our generation, that is the clash between civilizations, between east and west. I am thankful that preemptive action is being taken while Islam comprises less that 1% in canada and half of 1% in the USA. Isolated attacks such as 911 will only result in the utter defeat of individuals and nation states who would harm western interests (We still have more and better guns).
  342. William Gloucester from Canada writes: RE: sayed, continued...

    If anything Syed is doing immeasurable harm to his faith by making every thread a soapbox for the spread and triumph of Islam. If he is who he says he is (a man in his senior years), it goes to show that information should always be regulated by wisdom and shrewdness. It is evident that he most obviously lacks the last two and does not have an objective grasp of the first.

    In military terms, Sayed would be court marshaled by Mohamed for revealing his army's objectives way ahead of time, in this case hundreds of years, and for galvanizing and unifying the 'enemy's' collective resolve, in this case to put an abrupt end to his gang's global conquest.

    Ultimately then, Syed is a common internet troll who is an attention seeker who most likely is denied meaningful real human interaction and thus compensates for it on the internet. Lastly, I don't think it's healthy for an individual to constantly crave conflict and could be a sign of an underlying psychological pathology. Finally, if he really cares for his children, then he would try to make their life easier by not fomenting animosity towards them by his irresponsible posts. Very sad.
  343. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Corrupt paper fiat money system. How long will we tolerate this corruption.
  344. Gary Thomson from Canada writes: Oh ReallY(11:12):Envy? You don't know me and should not project your values onto me. I don't think that the goal of our, or any other, society is the achievement of low LICO stats. Now, if your quibbling stats are true, then that's a good thing, but it does not justify the appropriation of almost all of society's economic growth of the past few decades by a very small, already incredibly wealthy, aristocracy and their group of co-opted managers. The social and political signifigance of having this much wealth, and therefore this much power, in the hands of so few can be seen around us more and more every year. A cursory knowledge of the economic and political history of North America in the 1800's and early 1900's should be enough to disabuse one of the notion that this is a good situation for the vast majority of citizens. A communist? Is your quiver of arguments that depleted? All I'm saying is that a democratic, free market society in which a small fraction of 1% of the population controls most of the wealth will not remain democratic and free market, except in name alone, for long.
  345. wayne sharp from kapuskasing, Canada writes: Bill Gloucester Syed has very good points and that you choose to ignore the logic in what he says. It's not Muslim/Islam/faith it's about being treated fairly. Businesses, general employee costs are 10%, so why is 90% of all company/corporate saving made in this area. Why do salary cuts not occur at the management and ceo levels, why when contractual raises do not occur because theres no money but the ceo gets a Million dollar bonus-Jesus people lets get our heads out of our a$$e$. A middle class revolution of a Canadian sort could make job security a priority, I mean they give 200 million to GM then they close? Where is the return? Why has the middle class(educated) not making any gains, the rich are. Gains should be made across all segments of society, not only one!The choices we make decide our place in life-Poster wow you must have walked over many people on your way up-Remember the rich make it on the backs of the poor-since you defend the rich I can only assume your an elitist and the democratic mentality shows when you don,t get your way you make laws to impose threats and violence towards innocent people! Turn around is fair play.
  346. J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: I compare categories of employee because it is entirely relevent. If the US doesn't fund nurses through the public purse and we do and thus we count them as public employees and they don't it is highly relevant to any cross country comparison. You brought this up as a pure numbers issue when you referenced France having fewer public sector employees in relation to the rest of the population. I correct you on this and now you try to change the goal posts.

    Your argument right now is that US workers in the government are paid better and this is somehow indicative of quality. I disagree. While there can be some correlation, there is no causation and any qualitative assessment of such is quite frankly subjective and non-quantifiable.

    Regarding two of the categories where you suggest you would 'perhaps' rather not publicly pay: health care and education, in comparison to the US they pay more per capita and as a percentage of GDP on both and yet the results they achieve fall behind those in Canada, especially in public education. Or as you argue the value for dollar in the US is less than that achieved in Canada.

    Again categorizing employees is entirely pertinent since any cross country comparisons can only be meaningfully done in this manner. As someone with two masters and a PhD (I'm similarly educated) you should understand the need for common definitions in any statistical comparison of a class of anything. It's dated but refer to http://www.ilo.org/public/english/bureau/stat/download/wppsee.pdf

    Are nurses, police, firemen, military, teachers, professors, paramedics, etc. doing primarily clerical work? Considering their numbers they are a large portion of the public service and I wouldn't class them as such, which would counter your assertion that Canadian public sector workers are primarily clerical in nature.

  347. Carl White from Canada writes: 'Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Blaque Jacque Shallaque: Hi

    ' .... All this uncontrolled immigration is simply creating future social problems....'

    If there was no immigration, then how would the locals be able to afford living without working?'

    Do you have any statistics to back this up?

    No? Didn't think so.
  348. J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: You may not wish to pay for the public sector or certain segments of it and feel you are adequately educated such that you can provide for the education of your own children. Perhaps but I'd guess that the loss of income earning by you, by choosing to stay home vs the entire tax cost of education that you pay over you lifetime isn't even close to comparable. From a financial rational self-interest perspective it makes far more sense to have the state educate your children and you work and pay taxes than it does to home school and despite your education you'd be hard pressed to justify it as a value proposition. But you brought up the economic argument.

    Jerry, let me make this clear. I pay plenty of taxes, more than most people in Canada earn. I have a highly quantitative and analytical background and am well versed in finance and economics so I fully understand the concepts of value and in response to your thinly veiled insult above, so does my employer but I wonder what you contribute to society since you're so quick to denigrate others.

    That you equate a more technical US federal government vs a Canadian one and the ensuing higher pay as indicative of value for money is laughable. A PhD really? What school I wont send my kids. As I noted above in both education and health care where the US pays more both per capita and as a % of GDP they receive far poorer outcomes for both. So much for your indicator of value. It is in fact the outcomes relative to the cost that should be assessed and that itself is an incredibly difficult comparison to do with most classes of public sector worker but I await your Stats Can article.

    Also for your edification, the Stats Can public sector analytic series indicates that 2006 public sector employment compared to total was 16.8% or about 1 in 5.95, quite comparable with other OECD countries including France, the UK (20%), the US, Germany, etc.
  349. Boughtme ABrain from Canada writes: ROFL@ Ed Lewis from Sanityville, Canada writes: Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes: 'If you can fight our worst, how will you compete with our best?'
    We'll hide their welfare cheques......
    ****
    Excellent witticism Ed...
    Syed I wonder why regardless what the topic of discussion is you feel the need to hock your religion and your god endlessly on these boards.
    Presumably rational intelligent people would not just take your good and intelligent word if choosing to believe in the goodness of Islam - they would look to what life is like in the approximately 50 Islamic nations on earth including the jewels of Islam like Saudi Arabia - I would assume that you do not wish to contest that you are more aware and knowledgeable of the religion of peace than the good and wise religious leaders in those countries. Or if you foolishly do, that you don't dare to do so while in those countries...
    Of course some person might actually choose to listen to your ramblings and accept your 'facts' without looking at anything else and such people are welcome to join Islam - I don't think they are much of a loss to the rational world.
    I find it interesting that you sir must have been in Canada or a western country for a long time and benefited from the society and the country that allows you to voice your opinion even against the majority opinion, and yet when you say us and our - you do not mean we Canadians you mean we muslims...
    And as for breeding us out - well in my experience...it's mostly the poor, the stupid and the religious that seem to breed excessively and that's ok - their excessive breeding only reinforces their primary characteristics for yet another generation...if your family wishes to belong in there all the more power to you...
  350. M M from West Coast, Canada writes: Remember that the period Stats Canada is reporting on is 1980 to 2005 - a time with the Liberal Party of Canada was the goverment for all but 8 of those years and set about creating a vast array of social programs that apparently have not provided the benefits that were planned. At the same time our tax rates increased and increased and increased - federal taxes as well as provincial taxes as the federal goverment downloaded its new and improved programs to the provinces. As for immigrants, again this is the time when the Liberal governments promoted family reunification and their silly point system that lured many immigrants to Canada where their skills are not needed (not undervalued, not because of racism, but because they do not have the skill level required in Canadian workplaces!! Hats off to the Liberals for their success in creating an extra $53 median income over 25 years.
  351. D Roberts from Canada writes: Report is a fraud. Real incomes increased for all categories. The Statscan report does not include the transfer of funds such as GST credits, EI payments, pensions, investment income for seniors and other transfer of wealth from 'rich' to poor. The 'poor's' real income (money available) increased. Moreso, family incomes increased in this lower income segment. The redistribution system is working quite well thank you very much. You'd think a government body would want to reinforce another government agencies' success.

    Once again, Canadians paid for their own propaganda, and the media ran with it. Well, most of the media.
  352. D Roberts from Canada writes: Heads should roll at Statscan over this report. At least how they reported it, and the numbers that they hid. Propaganda by government agencies (individuals) should be a serious offence. Can you do a greater disservice to your country than to lie to them on mass?
  353. Woody Forrest from Out in the Sticks, Canada writes: It surprises me that only one person mentioned NAFTA. Trade with China has a similar effect. Many people don't see an increase in their wages, but you can pick up a made-in-China circular saw at Cdn Tire at a very low price. Competition keeps the price of goods down. Unfortunately China and India are now driving up the price of oil. The price for all things will eventually balance out at some new level. Anyways, NAFTA chopped most of the cushy US branch plant jobs at about the same time we more than doubled our immigration rates. It looks like a case of bad timing to me. Pouring gasoline on a fire is another way of looking at it. It will be interesting to see how the story on the 2006 census data plays out. It might allow governments to cut back on immigration rates without too much of a backlash. For every immigrant professional who wants to bring their parents in (and wants the rates kept high), there must be a number of taxi driving engineers who want the taps turned down a bit so they might find a proper job. In other words, some recent immigrants might want our rates trimmed for their own self interest. I also recall Syed Abbas once posting that there should be no barriers to immigration, and that we should take in all comers. I believe he was just trolling (as he likes to do), but perhaps the census data shows how ridiculous his comment was.
  354. Syed Abbas from Toronto, Canada writes:

    William Gloucester: Greetings

    Your comments are acknowledged, but do not merit a response.

    Cheers

    Carl White: Good Morning

    One thing the previous immigrants like you must never forget is that the Govt. is doing no favor by opening doors of Canada to new immigrants. You or your ancestors were done no favor by anyone to let you in.

    Immigration policy is made to bring betterment to the system. Had the policy been a compassionate one we would not have seen the Chinese poll tax, Indian Sikh ship returned to India from Vancouver, one Jew was too many policy. We would have seen more uneducated refugees from Palestine, Afghanistan, Viet-nam, and other areas of conflict.

    Even on every refugee Canada makes money, since some $50,000 is awarded to the recipient country by UN Commission of Refugees.

    We see the Corporate West for what it is - exploitative profit maximizing. I have been here 40 years and none of your delusional rhetoric fools anyone anymore.

    Cheers
  355. Larry Murphy from Canada writes: William Gloucester from Canada writes: RE: Sayed.

    I'm just glad that people like Sayed make my job so easy, and that is to reveal that the aims of Islam and pakistani nationals such as himself is militant and culturally subversive.

    Not subversive, the word you are searching for is retarded.
  356. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: You may not wish to pay for the public sector or certain segments of it and feel you are adequately educated such that you can provide for the education of your own children. Perhaps but I'd guess that the loss of income earning by you, by choosing to stay home vs the entire tax cost of education that you pay over you lifetime isn't even close to comparable. From a financial rational self-interest perspective it makes far more sense to have the state educate your children and you work and pay taxes than it does to home school and despite your education you'd be hard pressed to justify it as a value proposition. But you brought up the economic argument. Jerry, let me make this clear. I pay plenty of taxes, more than most people in Canada earn. I have a highly quantitative and analytical background and am well versed in finance and economics so I fully understand the concepts of value and in response to your thinly veiled insult above, so does my employer but I wonder what you contribute to society since you're so quick to denigrate others.

    ------------------------------------------------

    JK, I undestand that your superiority complex can cloud your judgment. It is you who denigrated 'others' and that is in plain sight in this and other threads. But I digress.

    Whatever you think about the choices that I should make is irrelevant. That's why we live in a free society. You want to make choices for me similar to what any good totalitarian idiot would prescribe. It makes more sense for the 'state to educate my children and for me to work and pay taxes'? PhD really? In what? The works of Marx and Lenin? You don't have to bother telling me which school you went to, I'm certain it was not in Canada. My guess is Soviet Union, Cuba or North Korea. I will certainly not send my children there.

    I am looking forward to your latest instalment of 'wisdom'. This is fun!

  357. Oh Really from Canada writes: The National Post today has indisputably blown this poor piece of reporting completely out of the water. I suggest reading 'The Underclass Myth' and Corcoran's editorial, where he tells you about the real numbers he got StatsCan to cough up yesterday.
  358. D Roberts from Canada writes: Sue you've hit on THE subject, the confiscation of wealth from private sector individuals to the public sector. There is a two-tier society and that is the division. We pay more in taxes for less in services. This is the Liberal model. Tax and spend without results, without accountability.

    Keep voting Liberal and this is what you get.

    If you factor in taxes, I wonder how far behind will all are now from 1980?
  359. Benjamin Frankling from Canada writes: Ermos Smith, the reason I may have been sarcastic and cynical is that that's the only style to answer smug, self-righteous so called ' self-made man'. You say too many people become comfortable, refuse to take risks. Wants the unions and governments to take care of them.' I hope you know that statement is bullshit. It's an overgeneralization about people who you think are flawed or lack the spirit of entrepreneurship. Let me ask you something if, like you seem to advance, if all people became entrepreneurs who would work in the factories, and all the other places? Why do you measure people with the yardstick of your successes? People are not only poor because they don't take risks. One becomes poor or is poor because of circumstances you have no idea about. People are not poor for the same reasons your parents were poor. Fortunes in people lives come and go and most of the time they're beyond their controls. Bad health can send you to the welfare office; unexpected loss of job; immigrating to a country that does not recognize your credentials; be single mother; go broke because of the market crash; lack of education; being born on a reservation in some forsaken place in the Arctic; born into a dysfunctional family; unable to accumulate enough money for many other reasons. In any event, there was a TV show back in the fifties that began by telling the viewer, 'There are a thousand stories in the nacked city. This is one of them.' What I mean is there are a thousand ways to povery: I only listed a few. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against rich people, it's freat to be rich, but there is nothing worse than a smug rich person that goes around saying ' I made it so why can't they'? Usually parvenues talk like that.
  360. Lawrence Koch from Canada writes: Radcliffe Robinson:

    'Come on, this is not standard english. And 'those ones' is not standard english too'

    Yes, it is. This one, that one, these ones, those ones. And I think you meant to say 'either', not 'too'.

    You know what's not standard English? Writing English without a capital E, language vandal.
  361. Benjamin Frankling from Canada writes: Oh Really, The what? 'The underclass myth?' He has the numbers? What? He needs numbers to tell him that poor people exist? No offence to blind people: is he blind? You gotta love those neocons! Always running around with statistics.
  362. Ontario Man from Canada writes: Educated professional young women tend to marry educated professional young men. Hence, their combined family income is relatively hight.

    I think this change in demographics has had a major impact on the growing 'wealthy' portion of the population, and as well the growing portion of 'not so wealthy'.
  363. Raymond Durrani from Ajax, Canada writes: Well! Send them back to their countries and see how far in front they fall?

    It is like all those doctors and engineers who complaint that they can not find job in their fields and why. I would like to ask them a questions though, especially to the doctors.

    'I suggest that you go back and explain it to your government and people in particular your behaviour of leaving the country when you could have helped the both'

    'these doctors have betrayed their native countries, which spent tons of money training them to fill in the gapwhich was widening because of increasing population of their respective countries. As soon these doctors became capable of helping their governments and people, they left the country - talk about greed'

    'these doctors and engineers deprived their people and governments who can least afford - their fellow citizens - by leaving the country. There is limit to ones greed. There is, in my view, no justification for their unforgiveable behaaviour'

    Tell these doctors and Engineers to stop complaining and tell this Liberal Mafia guy, McGinty to screwing up the system by bending the rules. These people have to write exams to qualify to become doctors and engineers like our kids did.
  364. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: There are definitely many roads to poverty. The difference in the income of immigrants also has more than one reason. When people immigrate with skills, we need to ensure that their skills are required. As the article states, many are skilled in IT field where employment opportunities have decreased. My son focused on that field with his education but works as a security guard(which he did while going to school) because of the change in demand between the time when he began his program of studies and when he completed it. Also, there are many refugees who are women and children, often single parent families where the women have had no opportunity for an education and cannot read or write in any language. Their employment prospects, at least in the short term, are extremely limited as a result. As a grandmother on disability raising a high needs grandchild what I find most frustrating is the difficulty in arranging activities for her. People can claim the cost of having their child participate in physical activities such as sports, but I can't because I don't have earned income. So my granddaughter has limited opportunties because I am disabled. If she was in foster care such expenses would be covered. At the same time, she is fortunate in that she has a great grandmother who has established a trust fund that will ensure that she will be able to go to university which something that many children living in poverty do not have. The hourly paid employment industry does not provide much opportunity for advancement and hard work does not necessarily lead to success to day as it might have in previous generations. When I was young student loans were not available and I was one who joined the military because I did not have the financial resources for the education I desired. Today that option is also limited and carries a risk that not all people are prepared to accept.
  365. J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: Jerry the only person with issues is you and it was you who witlesslly insulted me . If you think I have a superiority complex so be it. Maybe I'm just your superior. ;)

    I don't care about the choices you make. If you wish to home school your kids go ahead, that is your choice, however from a purely rational economic argument it doesn't make sense, that was my point. That doesn't preclude you from wanting to do so, nor does it alone outweight the possible reasons you may have for doing so, however in devising public policy it is entirely relevent for the populus at large and arguablly the prudent choice since most people are not in a position to do so and the benefits to society of an educated populus are obvious. There are other benefits to a public education as well but I digress.

    Jerry is your - to borrow from another poster - intellectual quiver so empty that you must resort to implying that I'm a marxist-Leninist or that I attended school in Cuba or North Korea to avoid addressing the debate points of a topic? Is your intellectual pool so shallow that ad homina and argumentum ad ridicule comprise the bulk of your responses or are you just lazy?

    And just to disabuse you jerry of your assumptions, my doctoral studies were not in economics, they were in Canada, and my knowledge of economics extends well beyond the Marxist-Leninist variant. Moreover jerry (your Ayn Rand is showing), I fully support individual liberty, but not to the exclusion of everything else. I'd say I'm of the John Stuart Mill school of thought on that topic.

    Oh and jerry we don't live in a 'free society'. You are not free to do whatever you choose. You are free to do what you want within the confines of the law, as set out by the government, in respect of the people, as part of a social contract that you were borne into or choose willingly. As such taxation to provide for the greater social good IS prescriptive in this society.
  366. varun xm from Toronto, Canada writes: Just got off the phone with a friend whose child went through an emergency surgery this week. We got talking and he said that he is realizing now how important it is socially, spiritually to have a community infrastructure in life - and that we compromise that in the pursuit of careers. I agree.

    For those who deride the immigrant enclaves, there is something to be said for those who get their priorities right and build a community network rather than depend on the state to be an all-purpose service provider. This is a learning, seemingly lost on many in my generation. We (as a generation) have taken high paying jobs but are living in remote suburbs and commuting an hour each way every day. My point is that a high income does not necessarily translate to a better quality of life.

    It's a pipe dream but I think we could do well to adopt Bhutan's happiness index instead of the dolla'.
  367. Doug Lefler from London, Canada writes: I know an engraver who does a lot of retirement gifts. Lately, he's been doing a lot of early retirement gifts, as in factories being shut down. Most jobs left don't pay well. It was a lot easier to get a good job when I left high school in the 70's than it is now. We are going in the wrong direction.
  368. Dean The Machine from Winnipeg, Canada writes: We have created an economy were University Educated people are given the opportunities to earn the lion share of the pie. These people are now becoming the minority due to the huge cost for this type of education. As the gap increases we now have a shrinking population of higher educated people who control everything and call the shots. Then we have a situation seen abundant in the Third World, were the majority of the population are poor and uneducated and the wealthy minority exploit and control them. Pretty soon we will be leaving this country to find better opportunities for a better life in let's say...China?
  369. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: Dean the Machine: I seriously believe that education in Canada to a large degree has become a situation of usury. In Vancouver schools at every level have become majority Asian and whites are a minority. Many white children are alienated in their classrooms.

    A large number of immigrants move to Canada for the specific reason of gaining a western-style education. Many families move here only to pull out when their children complete their tenure of 'free' public education.

    Walking through areas of downtown one would think Vancouver is simply one giant ESL school. A number of these schools have been investigated for illegal practises.And what is behind all this? Not education but MONEY. Our current immigration policy has tainted our once proud education system.

    This is the reality ON THE STREETS of Canada. Forget what our government says, they are the only ones benefitting from our foolish immigration system.
  370. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'For those who deride the immigrant enclaves, there is something to be said for those who get their priorities right and build a community network rather than depend on the state to be an all-purpose service provider.'

    yes there is something to be said for these folks: if you are interested in duplicating the environment of the country you came from, stay in the country you came from.
    But new immigrants appear to want things both ways. Second generation Canadians don't have things both ways, as in we have to put up with these enthnocentric enclaves, so why should the new immigrant have this luxury?
  371. RD Lone from Vancouver, Canada writes: There are some good comments here, but most simply miss the real reason.

    Those who are wealthy have a higher capacity to save, and the money invested instead of spent generates returns over time. How many low income people are raking it in with rental and investment (dividends) income?

    Short of taxing people for being responsible with their money and saving, you can't really 'fix' this non-problem.
  372. Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: The choices (10:07 AM) states: 'What did you have in mind? As the old saying goes; 'Don't come to me with a problem, come to me with a solution.''

    Read today's Dilbert for the answer to that. Dilbert is assigned to a project that makes fuel from water. Dilbert questions that our earth will become a wasteland. The pointed haired boss responds 'Not if someone discovers how to make water from oil.'
  373. J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: By the way jerry I'm still waiting for the Stats Can source supporting your assertion that the US civil service is more technical and thus more necessary and justifiable than the Canadian civil service. I've thus far provided a handful of sources of data to support my position whereas you have only alluded to such support but not followed through.
  374. J Kay from Canada writes: RD Lone: That is arguablly part of it. If one looks at the Revenue Canada income and taxation statistics some of that is borne out in there. I think Ontario Man had a salient point as well. With the total onset of women in the workforce and highly educated at that, there exists an opportunity for a doubling of household income that didn't really exist in the same manner 50 years ago, perhaps not even 25. It's a reasonably well observed phenomenon that wealthy people tend to marry wealthy people, and this results in a concentration of both income and wealth. With the addition of educated women in the workforce that have high income earning potential, they often seek like mates, and this selection bias in partners results in those household incomes that were previously at the upper end due to the single male earner, now effectively doubling, increasing the relative distance between themselves and other income quintile buckets.

    This combined with the ability to save - via a larger proportion of their income being disposable - allows those who earn more to eventually pull away even further by taking advantage of tax shelters, and shifting their income eventually to lower tax revenue sources such as dividends.
  375. B L from Canada writes: I graduated in the top 5% of my high school class, entered post-secondary with a scholarship. I worked full time hours since I was 14 years old, in addition to my school work. I am not lazy nor uneducated.

    I've also spent a year homeless and another year on ODSP. Nothing like making a choice between tuition and rent. Or between groceries and hydro.

    I now consider myself to be wealthy. I have a mortgage which eats up over 20% or my annual salary. I give handouts to panhandlers. I donate 10% of my annual salary to charity. I'd rather help out a lost soul than sit in judgment about a situation that I know nothing about. (oh - and did I mention that I'm HAPPY??)

    To quote Billie Holiday : You've got to have something to eat and a little love in your life before you can hold still for any damn body's sermon on how to behave.
  376. varun xm from Toronto, Canada writes: B L - if you are happy - rest assured that you are wealthy in everyone's eyes, especially with the fulfilling life you seem to be leading.

    To carry forward my point earlier, we are looking to annual income as an absolute measure of quality of life. I think it is a good metric, but living is more than money - so I'd be keen to see Statscan's results on a happiness survey to complement the hard numbers - and see if there is correlation. I have the hypothesis that some immigrants may choose to take lower paying jobs in the ethnic enclaves so they can have a community network rather than ship out to some relatively high paying job in Snowsquall ON and live in miserable isolation.

    Wicked messenger at 1:49pm - You quoted me in your comment but I did not understand what you said. Can you clarify?
  377. J Kay from Canada writes: B L: Congratulations and I mean that sincerely. I've been fortunate most of my life but I recognize that it could have been different for me and think 'there but for the grace of god go I', when I see someone who is lost. Some because of mental illness, some because of happenstance, some due to bad choices and some because other things beyond their control. The notion that all homeless people or poor are lazy is itself so intellectually lazy.
  378. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Most people are not 'poor' by choice. Many people work hard and are still poor. Some people worked hard but ended up poor through circumstances, health problems etc. Part of the problem today is that we tend to think that the haves deserve to have and the have nots don't deserve to have. Often the ones who suffer most is the children who have no choice in terms of being in poor households. I know of people who would move to get a job but the costs involved make that not a feasible solution. Here we have pharmacare and in other provinces they would have to be ensured of a job that provided a salary and/or benefits that would offset the costs of prescription medications they require.
    Another aspect of society that complicates the situation is the trend to smaller families which are often separated by distance because people go to where the jobs are and the supports of the extended family are lost in the process. Unfortunately, in todays global economy there do not seem to be many solutions available.
  379. Luke R from Toronto, Canada writes: all the dolts on here screaming about how people should work harder check you heads. you are the typical loud mouth baby boomers that think you had it so hard. you didn't. people are working harder now. check the labour stats - people are working longers hours and taking less vacation. this also has nothing to do with kids not knowing what to do with their lives. i'm sure there were plenty of those back in the day too. in fact back then you could be a high school drop out, work at Ford and raise a family. now you can have 2 degrees and you'll be making $40,000. how many people do you think you can support on $40,000/yr. this has nothing to do with work ethic, it has to do with an uneven distrubtion of income. we are being lied to when we are told that a booming economy benefits everyone because we now have objective evidence that it hasn't. also, some people are saying that this is an incomplete picture because it address pre-tax incomes and not after tax incomes where there are gov't subsidies etc. that may be true but that only masks the real issue that a doubling of the GDP has no real effect on the state of the middle-class. sad!
  380. jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Kay from Canada writes: Jerry is your - to borrow from another poster - intellectual quiver so empty that you must resort to implying that I'm a marxist-Leninist or that I attended school in Cuba or North Korea to avoid addressing the debate points of a topic? Is your intellectual pool so shallow that ad homina and argumentum ad ridicule comprise the bulk of your responses or are you just lazy?

    ---------------------------------------------------

    Jk, let's recap: you stated that it makes more sense for the 'state to educate my children and for me to work and pay taxes'. This begs the question: which political ideologies espoused such views? Communism is one of them, currently the only one in existance. We liberals (small l please) believe that choices should be awarded to the individual when possible. And choice in education is possible unless of course one belives that people should pay taxes and shut up while the are given 'free' services of dubious value. In my opinion based on what you wrote you seem to lean in that direction.

    As an economic statement your assertion is dead wrong in my case. You seem apply some simplistic utility function to a concrete case. I think Marshallian argument is weak due to inadequate analysis of utility. IMO your argument assumes a utility function of the kind: income - taxes - education costs. Apart from missing terms on which I place high weight you seem to assume in your argument that the function is positive. My view is that is not true. I've told you already that I am not happy the school my kids are in and therefore IMO the VALUE of the education that my kids receive for my money is pretty low.

    Anyways, as for your 'we don't live in a free society' rant, thanks for letting me know. I guess I could not figure that one by myself until now. I'll log off now as I've spent more time than I should have on this site. Later.

  381. J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: As someone who seems to have a grasp of formal logic systems and I'm assuming philosophy, you should really know not to use "begs the question" in the manner in which you did. It does not mean what your implied it too.

    Jerry, the idea of socialized education existed before the existence of communism and is NOT parallel to the idea of it. Read On Liberty please or at least re-read it. You seem to be confusing two arguments which is disconcerting. Initially you proposed the argument that you could stay at home are educate your children on you husband's salary if you werent' taxed for education. I simply pointed out that's a false economic argument, since financially you would earn more income by working and paying taxes and having the state educate your children than for you to stay home, thus the latter maximizes your income. I further said I highly doubt, even with your education that you could justify, in any value proposition, through some dubiously defined utility function, the education of your children in simply economic terms as better done by you. I'm doubting you can justify a concave utility function, resulting in a negative value of education by the state, sufficient to negative any positive income, again in PURELY economic terms.

    This is an entirely separate argument from whether you should be able to or not, both of which were contained in my arguments to your but not conjoined, yet you seem to have mistaken that.

    So no jerry I'm not a communist, I'm a liberal in the small l sense (as well), reasonably well versed in the history and development of economic and social philosophy. And jerry I find it quite a bore and unimpressive your displays of intellect (utility function, Marshallian economic argument) as if you might trip me up at some point. Yawn, yes I know who Alfred Marshal is. What next, are you going to morph into Derrida and go all deconstructionist on me?
  382. J Kay from Canada writes: jerry johnson: On the parallel topic of individual liberty vs social contract vis-a-vis the education argument, while in your specific case you may see the education of your children by you as preferable and thus the funding of education through tax dollars as both a waste by you and an infringement on your liberty it is contrasted by the utilitarian social contract view of maximizing society's benefit by having an educated populous and ensuring that it occurs. As such, we have as a society either implicitly or explicitly generally agreed that an educated populous is something worth funding through taxation, that it leads to the betterment of us all even if it personally lowers the value proposition for a few. You are of course free to send your child to another school, or to pay for private schools if you like, because your taxation dollars that are directed towards education are not specific to you, nor are they meant to directly benefit you vis-a-vis the education of your children, but instead meant to indirectly benefit you, business and the country as a whole by ensuring a certain level of educational competence of the whole. Your university education itself was supported by other peoples tax dollars, which directly benefited you and perhaps, though it's left to be seen, society as a whole.

    We all want value for money, hence my personal comment about paying loads of taxes. But our individual taxes are not tied to any specific program, designed to derive specific benefit to us individually. I could easily argue that the taxes you pay simply fund the road in front of your house and for that you get good value for money. Given the minuscule amount of taxes that you pay that go to fund education, or that I fund but derive zero direct benefit from right now, I maintain that your position that you derive little value from those taxes you pay toward education is wrong and misguided.
  383. Bert Russell Paradox, BC from Canada writes:
    It appears Stats Canada should have a more diverse representative of Canadians working for them - they produce these Politically Correct (Their Definition) statistics which can be made to say whatever their political agenda is. Of course Fem media like CTVGM love anything that might indicate there is discrimation against or a certain minority might need a boost. For example: Canadians are not interested in reading about anything negative about Israel in CTV GM. Extensive GM polls have found
    very few comments on these reports. ("Because its GM policy not to pass on such articles ... which they wouldn't allow comments on anyway".
  384. Rick C from Canada writes: jerry johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes:

    "Jk, let's recap: you stated that it makes more sense for the 'state to educate my children and for me to work and pay taxes'."

    Sounds almost like a form of slavery when you put it that way doesn't it.
  385. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes:"Often the ones who suffer most is the children who have no choice in terms of being in poor households."

    Making long-term passive birth control (eg- IUD, Norplant) a condition of accepting welfare would go a long way toward solving that problem.

    People who cannot support themselves are clearly not capable of raising children on their own and shouldn't be doing so on the public teat. Worse yet those kids grow up thinking that welfare is an acceptable, normal, sort of lifestyle, and are more likely to take that option for their future.
  386. J Kay from Canada writes: Rick C: Perhaps, however I never suggested that it had to be that way, should be that way, etc. I was merely arguing that if one is arguing from the precept that if they didn't pay taxes to fund public education that they could therefore afford to stay home an educate one's own children, that it is in most cases false. From a strictly financial point of view one would be ahead of the game financially by working earning a greater income, paying a small portion of that income to the state to educate one's children. Moreover under most reasonable conditions and utility functions as a value proposition it is arguably better as well.

    Nowhere was I arguing that we should surrender ourselves to the state, I was arguing that one better maximises their income by both working and having someone else educate the kids. I didn't suggest that one couldn't use private schools either, to achieve a higher quality of education, though in many regards I find the latter position to be based on subjective opinion and not quantitative metrics.
  387. J Kay from Canada writes: Rick C: Sorry I need to clarify. In saying that one could afford to stay at home, what I intended was that the argument is one would be financially equivalent and thus would obtain a better value proposition from it. That I believe is false.

    Regarding slavery, I believe that's why some people refer to working for a living as wage slavery.
  388. Rick C from Canada writes: J Kay from Canada:

    "Regarding slavery, I believe that's why some people refer to working for a living as wage slavery."

    This is more what I was referring to. The gov't spending money printed by the central bank that everyone has to pay for. I certainly didn't interpret surrendering ourselves to the state in what you wrote.

    From an alruistic point of view publically funded education serves society well. Some benefit at the cost of others. The public curriculum focuses on the middle of the bell curve; kids who lead or lag the middle are not served well in my opinion. That is probably where the private options are useful. I agree financially home schooling is not the better option. I think other motivations are involved with the choice to home school however. Whether it's a better or worse option really depends on the person doing the teaching.
  389. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: What about adjusting expenditures over time, for comparison?

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