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Shifting Sands, Part II: The Texas Connection

The kinder, gentler energy superpower

DAVID EBNER AND BARRIE MCKENNA

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 9:09 PM EST 23/02/08

The Lone Star state — and its refineries — are hungry for the gooey crude from Alberta's oil sands ...Read the full article

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  1. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: "puts a bigger onus on Canadian policymakers to make their voices heard in the US..."

    Do we actually have "policymakers" in Canada?

    Now, that is news!
  2. westcoastgroovin victoria from Canada writes: Its time for Canadian oil companies to start buying into US refineries now we have a strong dollar. Maybe when labor costs level off we can build them in Canada.
  3. Robin Hannah from Canada writes: It could be, we are the "kinder gentler" oil superpower. Who says? At what cost?

    Aww shucks, Harper will sell us out in a heartbeat.
  4. 20 20 from Canada writes:
    In the face of US demand for Canadian oil, the greatest challenge we face is maintaining our sovereignty and democracy. Already that demand has dictated for us Canadian policy on greenhouse gas emissions and the SPP (which is principally about securing energy security and prosperity for the US). The Canadian electorate's opinion is simply bypassed and the important long-term decisions on the future of our country are made behind closed doors by unelected elites.

    For example, it was a Jan. 2006 meeting in Houston, Texas, kept secret from the Canadian public for over a year before Radio Canada got a hold of the minutes, that called for a "fivefold expansion" in oilsands production in a relatively "short time span" and encouraged decision-makers "to streamline the regulatory approval process" with a "one-stop-shop" for project proposals to facilitate that expansion.

    Snapping right to, "Harper has said the oil sands could produce 4 million barrels per day by 2015 and has indicated he would work to see that happen," and established the "Major Projects Management Office" to "streamline the regulatory system for major resource projects" and "provide a single point of entry into the federal regulatory process for industry".
  5. 20 20 from Canada writes:
    Harper's resistance to Kyoto and climate change measures is also directly tied to this. He refuses to reduce emissions because he's intent on satisfying those US demands for 4-5 times more oilsands production.

    In another example, the unelected political-corporate elite made sweeping long-term decisions behind closed doors at the secret "North American Forum":

    http://vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060919132553106

    "Session III: Toward a North American Energy Strategy"
    "Session V: Demographic and Social Dimensions of North American Integration"

    The single greatest threat to Canada as a nation is the Deep Integration agenda. And the more significant we are to the US as an energy supplier, the greater this threat to our sovereignty.

    The US has a habit of interfering in the internal politics of countries that have oil, covertly influencing, destabilizing, or overthrowing democratically-elected governments that try to retain more of the oil wealth for their citizens, and covertly supporting political-corporate elites that would sell off their countries' oil assets to US interests.

    We have to be aware of this and keep a watchful eye on our sovereignty, our independence, our unity, and the integrity of our democracy.
  6. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: 20 20 from Canada:

    What you have said is quite true.

    Every one of the current Presidential candidates is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations except one -- as are many Canadian politicians.

    As many of us already know, there is already a blueprint for a North American Union...

    So, how come our leaders and "free media" are not honestly talking about these issues in Canada when some of those in the US are?

    Instead, our "leaders" spout of about "jellybeans" and "intergalactic highways"...

    Being an "energy superpower" would involve having an actual leader who recognizes that those who have the power have the power...
  7. Frank Turner from United States writes: The North American Union is inevitable and the old days of nation- states and sovereignty is over folks. Canada became a country (or almost-country) too late in the game anyway. Globilization, corporate feifdoms, dwindling resources, non-nation-state adversaries, etc make the rules very different now. So Canada will play the new game, like everyone else, and make Northern Alberta look like a colder version of the Saudi sandbox for a couple generations of wealth. The Islamic mosques of the immigrants will fittingly be built on the new Canadian toxic desert of Alberta, and the new southern pointing pipelines will be easy pickings for the terrorist factions of those immigrants. That will of course require that the US send in a security army to protect those pipelines.
  8. desiderio manzanal jr from montreal, Canada writes: Lets see 3 000 000 per day, 365 days a year at 90 dollars a barrel....HMMM we too stupid....to multiply that lots of billions. Wonder how much we get out that ! I think the billions of dollars foreign companies spend on development are recuperated within a few years and yet Canadian Gov. seek outside investors to develop the tar sand oil industries. How much canadian royalties...50% , 40%, 30%......lower...keep going.

    I say, finance this expansion by Canadian bonds and then keep most of the future massive revenue in Gov. hands to pay the debt...so that we can reduce that tax. OH i just remembered, sticky hands all over the place.. and no brains because its too Green to see anything. And why not use the 1 percent cut in GST to fund Canadian investment in oil exploration and then issue canadian dividends for their share of the burden.

  9. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Frank Turner from United States:

    Sounds peachy, Frank, but you have obviously underestimated one thing...

    Our fearless "Canadian policymakers" that are "going to make their voices heard in the US..."

    Cue Stelmach!
  10. Kevin Chew from Germany writes: Silly question: why can't refineries and thus jobs be created in Canada in order to keep more of the wealth at home? Is this analagous to the silly practice of exporting raw logs?
  11. Chris Lalonde from Singapore writes: Kevin Chew from Germany... I have to ask the same question... I don't have a problem with Americans but why not build refineries in Canada (Alberta, BC, Ontario, etc)?? Shouldn't the provincial and federal gov'ts encourage such investment from the private sector? Maybe someone knowledgeable in the industry can respond...
  12. Dollars and Sensez from Canada writes: The article says: "...Canada is the anti-superpower: a gentle giant that doesn't wield its oil clout as a geopolitical club (think Russia or Venezuela), or set a benchmark for world prices (like Saudi Arabia). It isn't lawless or war-ravaged (Nigeria or Iraq)..."

    With the US just a step away, outnumber and out arm us, can we not be anti-superpower???
  13. Eddie 'mush' Montanaro from montreal, Canada writes: Yes great idea. Let's just ship all of our unprocessed raw materials to Texas without extracting any value for our people and our country. We need to tell Texas where to go.
  14. John Cameron from Red Deer, Canada writes: As far as the refining and upgrading goes it's two separate things. Hopefully the G&M will find space in this series to talk about upgrader alley to be built NE of Edmonton along the North Saskatchewan River.

    And the scale of bottlenecks involved.
  15. Kevin Mager from Edmonton, Canada writes: Alberta already has refineries, even new ones built in the last five years or so (Google/Wiki Scotford Refinery and Upgrader). Maybe it's a question of time, since a goal of four million barrels per day is too much for the local plants to handle? Scotford now can produce 200K barrels/day of light grade crude from the cleaner oilsands bitumen, expanding to 300K per day (but not until 2010, if everything goes smoothly). Either way, it's going to be much cheaper and faster to build a pipeline, especially when looking for short term corporate prosperity and international political gains. Texas sounds like a stale oil economy with piles of infrastructure ready to work. Oil companies will keep their costs down by piping it to refineries that already have the teeth to chew on the heaviest, dirtiest, most impure oilsands crude.
  16. Mike Quinlan from Gatineau QC, Canada writes: Some ask why not build a refinery in Canada? For the same reason our city's cannot find new dump sites. There are enough people for whom its a no never not in my back situation, that it becomes a political minefield for any politician vaguely involved. Opponents can create problems at the municipal, provincial or federal levels, not to mention using the courts and environmental protection laws. In short decide that you want to invest in a refinery today, and then watch years and years go by without any real likelyhood of success.
    Not that this is necessarily a bad thing...
  17. Don Quixote from the Banana Belt Ont., Canada writes: We need to build new, up to date refineries right here in Canada in addition to the ones existing already.
    There is not only the U.S. waiting as a customer, but the rest of the world ahead of time before Mid East Oil Supply becomes economically and politically unstable and less accessible.
  18. 20 20 from Canada writes:
    The implications of this dramatic increase of pipelined oil for the US are sweeping.

    Besides nixing Kyoto and embracing the SPP agenda by installing a permanent council of 30 unelected, unaccountable, majority-foreign CEO's to call the shots, another thing Harper has done to ensure delivery of the oil on a silver platter to the US is to pre-emptively shut out competitive bidding from a second potential client. ("China wary of investing in Canadian oil sector", globeandmail.com)

    After reading the "Viva 'Danny Chavez'!" article ("That's Danny Billions to you", globeandmail.com) this weekend, my thoughts were that Canadians could really use Danny Williams as Prime Minister of Canada right now.

    But would the US even let us vote in Danny Williams or someone like him, or would they interfere in our sovereign democracy as they do in Venezuela, covertly funding opposition parties, business elite groups, and think tanks?

    We can hope they would respect our sovereignty and democracy, but their record, both abroad, now and historically, and here (CFR/CCCE, NAFTA Energy "Proportionality Clause", SPP) speaks otherwise.
  19. P Martin from St. John's, NL, Canada writes: Nice to see how Ottawa allows Alberta to send oil though Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Unlike Ottawa that continues to force NL through Quebec. If Ottawa even treated NL remotely fairly, there would be no need to try and bypass Quebec to ship power outside our province. Of course this led to the 1969 Upper Churchill deal that will result in nearly $100 billion to Quebec and a pittance to NL. And Ottawa will STILL do nothing about transmitting power through Quebec. Good to see how well this federation works - for Quebec and Ontario that is.
  20. M Spiker from Ottawa, Canada writes: The world has reached "peak oil" so why do you need more refineries?

    It makes even less sense to build new refineries when you have US refineries that are under utilized and already have the distribution infrastructure in place. Even if for political reasons you wasted the money building more Western Canada refining capacity, you'd still need to build pipeline capacity to distribute the refined products to the customers.
  21. Thomas Tansley from Canada writes: A deal with the Devil! Good luck ever trying to cut back the amount of oil being shipped to the States. It is no longer Canada's oil, it is the United States. Here is a idea. How about these countries start investing in alternative energy that doesn't require severely damaging our environment by using pipelines for thousands of kilometers, and tons of energy just to refine the stuff. The real issue here is how weak Canada is, and how money rules over the environment, and regular societies needs and wants. Every person on earth knows that it is only a matter of time before the oil runs out. Perhaps it is time that someone sersiously stepped up to the plate and looked at another option.
  22. Jim Quinn from Richmond ON, Canada writes: From 20-20 .... "The US has a habit of interfering in the internal politics of countries that have oil, covertly influencing, destabilizing, or overthrowing democratically-elected governments .... covertly supporting political-corporate elites that would sell off their countries' oil assets to US interests" and "would the US even let us vote in Danny Williams or someone like him". You've got it. Where did Harper come from and does anyone know what his agenda is, other than ensurring that the George et al is pleased with his (oops our) performance? We've supposidly got a trade deal with the US but it's all one way ... remember the tax on softwood lumber or closing the door to Canadian beef. The one place where there was a working agreement was on automobile production but with dollar parity that's down the drain, subject to government subsidy ... but then again so are the big three. From time to time Harper will have to take issue with US policy and issues such as softwood but that's politics. No problem as long as oil keeps flowing. If we want refineries I am sure that the China or India will partner with Canadian firms to build them and a pipeline to the coast. That would not please US interests so forget it. On re election I am sure that we will have to tackle the next big issue for the US, i.e. there are $ to be made from the water in "them there" streams, rivers and lakes in Canada. We've got golf courses to be watered in Arizona and Nevada, pools to be filled in California, etc. You get the drift. Sorry Danny no room for you on the agenda. Jim Q.
  23. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: "Chris Lalonde from Singapore writes: Kevin Chew from Germany... I have to ask the same question... I don't have a problem with Americans but why not build refineries in Canada (Alberta, BC, Ontario, etc)?? Shouldn't the provincial and federal gov'ts encourage such investment from the private sector? Maybe someone knowledgeable in the industry can respond... "

    Because it's really, really expensive, and all the environmental permitting is a nightmare. It's far cheaper to sell the oil to an existing refinering than to build one, generally. From inception to production can be as long as 10 years. That's longer than alot nuclear power plants take to get running. But to answer your question, yes, it seems like Canada ought to be encouraging the development of its' own infrastructure. Short of nationalizing all the oil reserves, I don't see how you do it except by giving huge regulatory streamlines and cash incentives. Plus people plain hate oil companies, so any politico who reccommends such things is probably not looking at easy re-election.
  24. Hugh Campbell from Canada writes: How will you ride the slide?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulxe1ie-vEY
  25. Thomas Tansley from Canada writes: "Where did Harper come from and does anyone know what his agenda is, other than ensurring that the George et al is pleased with his (oops our) performance?". Good call Jim! Canada needs a leader who will fight for CANADA'S RIGHTS, and not try to appease other countries and their power struggles. First it is the oil in Alberta, next it is the water in the Great Lakes.
  26. The Bubble from Canada writes: The Rednecks have gained power. Canada has more oil than any other country in the world but gurarantees a supply for Americans before guaranteeing a supply for it's own citizens. Americans may see friendly Canadians with barrels of oil. I see a sucker born every minute. It's not Albertans vs Eastern Canada now, it's Americans vs. All of Canada. It's hard to live in a country where our government spends so much time hiding the truth and watching citizens eat up the lies.
  27. Ian St. John from Canada writes: "As the U.S. seeks to decrease its dependence on crude from unstable regions and OPEC countries, and with the oil sands booming, Canada has supplanted Saudi Arabia as the leading supplier of crude to the U.S., claiming the No. 1 spot in 2004."

    It is not surprising. Most people are unaware that Canada is the #1 exporter to the U.S. since the 70's or before. This was from 'conventional crude' from the Leduc fields. We only lost out to SA for a few years as declining production reduced exports before the oil sands took up the slack.
  28. Chris Lalonde from Singapore writes: Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States ... Thanks for the reply. Yep, that sounds about right...
  29. david mathews from St. Petersburg, Algeria writes: Canada is destroying a huge chunk of pristine wilderness and generating a desolate, polluted moonscape for the sake of the obese SUV-driving American hyperconsumer.

    Thanks a lot, Canada, thanks a lot!
  30. John Fedup from Canada writes: david mathews from St. Petersburg... huge chunk of pristine wilderness

    It might have been that 200 million years ago. It looked like a moonscape long before the oilsands development started.
  31. david mathews from St. Petersburg, Algeria writes: Is that so, John? Contrast the before-and-after pictures of the oil sands development as featured in this pro-oilsands documentary: "Walking on Oil" http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-9131292553850309417 "Is the World running out of, or into oil? Do Alberta's oil sands support the theory that the World is running into oil? They seem to. ... all » "Walking on oil – Alberta's oil sands" is a narrative driven Television essay that melds natural history, spectacular scenery, and technological and scientific explanations to tell a timely story. It identifies 10 major energy companies: Syncrude, Suncor, Shell, Western, Chevron, Albian Sands, Terasen Pipelines, EnCana, Imperial Oil (Esso), and Petro-Canada. These are all involved in oil sands projects in Alberta, and are featured rather as "lead actors" that help in telling a very informative, broad-approach-story about Alberta and its oil sands potential. Alberta's landscape forms the backdrop of the program. The scenery scenes assure that the viewers, in particular international, can locate Alberta geographically, and can see what Alberta looks like." This is the sort of ecological damage which will linger for thousands of years after the oil age has ended. Perhaps Canada shouldn't destroy its forests for the save of the SUV?
  32. Gary Thomson from Surrey, BC, Canada writes: Why can't we refine the oil here?
  33. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: 20 20, I thought the SPP was all about the NAFTA Superhighway and the Amero currency. Anyway, not all of us are against oil sands expansion. Some of us see it as a massive economic opportunity for this country. Off-shore oil & gas on the Pacific coast will be the next big frontier. We kept China from investing for reasons that had nothing to do with the US. We no longer allow our own government to buy into industries, why should we allow someon else's. The real threat to Canada's sovereignty and resources comes not from the US, but from the so-called "sovereign wealth funds" of wealthy dictatorships. US corporations invest for one reason - PROFIT. Government owned wealth funds invest for God knows what reason, ususally to secure cheap resources to fuel their own industry. Before you accuse Americans of doing the same thing, remember that US oil companies do not sell oil cheaply; they sell it at full market price. A Chinese-owned firm would not necessarily do the same thing.
  34. Tony Conner from Edmonton, Canada writes: Bubble writes: "It's hard to live in a country where our government spends so much time hiding the truth and watching citizens eat up the lies."

    So, no other country EVER misleads it's citizens? What are you, some wide-eyed, naive college kid? Every government lies to it's citizens, and ALWAYS HAS throughout history. It's human nature. There's a quote that applies nicely:

    "Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build bridges where there are no rivers." And who said that? Nikita Khrushchev...

    If it's so hard to live here, so very objectionable, what can I say?
  35. Bill Garrison from Tuttle, Oklahoma, United States writes: Some funny things happen in the States concerning energy.
    There is more oil locked up in the sands and shales of Western Colorado and eastern Utah than there is in all the middle east. Tests have proven that.
    The north slopes of Alaska has much more oil than Venezuela does. Again, tests have proven that.
    The State of Florida prohibits drilling of oil wells within 200 miles of it's gulf shores. There is much oil there; the Chinese know it and because they are unencumbered by United States and Florida law are developing it for Cuba.
    Envioromental laws that some call whacko is the reason that these and other energy sources are not developed. Oklahoma and Texas, which have been pumping oil out of the Earth for eighty years or more are not enviromental wastelands. They are pretty nice places to live.
  36. Khrys Tee from Canada writes: They are building a new refinery in Canada, http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2007/05/28/nb-eiareax.html?ref=rss
    in Saint John NB, Thanks to Irving. perhaps Irving should build another one on the west coast.
  37. david mathews from St. Petersburg, Algeria writes: Oh my, oh my, the environmental laws are to blame for America's energy woes! The United States of America currently consumes 25% of the world's daily oil production ... but the oil industry would prefer that America consume more!

    These people would destroy the entire planet for the sake of the oil industry & the SUV. Look at the mess which they have already created: Alaska's suffering horrendous impacts from Global Warming, Greenland's and Antarctica's icecaps are melting at an accelerating pace, and the oceans are rising.

    How bad do things have to get on this Earth before the oil industry realizes that burning oil is bad for a planet's health?
  38. The Bubble from Canada writes: I'm glad you agree with me Tony, I hope you really are from Edmonton. I disagree with your insinuation, however, that we should be OK with allowing the Alberta and the Federal government under Harper to lie to us because everyone else has done it. Quoting a comunist leader to get your point across is telling. The oil sands need some kind of brake applied, it's only going gangbusters to support the war in Iraq. All the oil and most of the profits go to the states, the oil workers are constantly displaced from their families, the per capita ghg emissions are far and away the worst in the country, and the Americans drop a few dollars on the Alberta legislature while cautioning the politicians there to watch out for the communists back east and laughing all the way to the bank.
  39. John Spafford from Canada writes: At $90. or more for a barrel of oil, how does the good folks in Canada think they are going to survive if Alberta doesn't sell as much as possible into the US. If Alberta and a lesser extent Ontario stopped propping up all the other provinces with transfer payments they would be looking for food in garbage cans. Funny how this country works. Quebec and Nf for instance only survive because of charity from the rest of the country but they have a huge problem with us. Why not cut off transfer payments for one year and give them a real problem. Canada is very fortunate that Ontarians and Albertans are so patient and generous. Besides, try building a new refinery in Canada anywhere. It's not on.
  40. Dave Jansen - Obama for PM from Canada writes: Tony Conner from Edmonton, Canada writes: "Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build bridges where there are no rivers." And who said that? Nikita Khrushchev...

    Sorry Tony, quoting a communist dictator to make a point about how it's okay to lie to people says a lot about where you stand on the issue...

    As well, it's NOT okay under ANY circumstance to have our government lie to us. PERIOD. Saying it's okay because it's been done before is akin to supporting slaverly simply because they used to do it in 1704...
  41. The Bubble from Canada writes: The least the politicians could do there is to divert some oil for Canadian reserves, in case, just in case of depression. It's not the environmental concerns that make me angry, it's the pathetic management of the stuff. Why would Albertans hate eastern canada more than the Americans who are clearly the most ruthless people on the planet today. Have the people out there not seen what the Americans did to softwood lumber here? Do Albertans trust Americans will treat them any better than any other part of this country now. It's a real testament to the ability of the Americans to disrupt another country that they have Albertans so in the dark about their very existence.
  42. The Bubble from Canada writes: The globe should identify the actual origin of posters on here, it's obvious some posters are American who come on here to deliberately create animosity between eastern and western Canada.
  43. George Hall from Canada writes: How many people are going to die from the pollution caused by the buring of these fossil fuels?
    Oil men of this day have no social conscience they are blinded by greed.and selfishness. Greed and gluttonyare without boundaries.
    Canadians should not be lap dogs to the liars like George Bush of this world, but stand up for what is right.
  44. david mathews from St. Petersburg, Algeria writes: "... it's obvious some posters are American who come on here to deliberately create animosity between eastern and western Canada" If you think that's terrible, you should see what the Americans have done to Iraq! Americans are the most ruthless and violent people on the planet. America's oil addiction has provoked a war which cannot end in the Middle East. Western countries have a long history of violence in the Middle East in order to secure the resources of that region for Western consumption. But Canada just gives its resources away to America ... a very kind and gentle nation indeed! Canada need not fear an invasion because you have already surrendered your natural resources to us. We're burning your resources up, too, at a horrendous pace. When Canada runs out of oil and natural gas, what happens to Canada? I also wonder: What happens to Canada when the United States of America goes bankrupt and collapses? A nation which relies so heavily upon debt to finance its excesses cannot survive forever. By feeding America's oil addiction you people are making the situation down here much worse than it would otherwise become. Americans already import 60% of our daily oil consumption. Yet Americans demand more oil. Our appetites are insatiable. Canada is engaged in a dangerous game trying to feed the addict and promising more, forever. Should a day ever come in which Canada desperately needs its own resouces I wonder how you could ever say "no" to a potentially violent oil addicted Superpower?
  45. Thomas Too from Canada writes: Gary Thomson from Surrey, BC, Canada writes: Why can't we refine the oil here?

    I wonder why the Canaian oil is friendly to US. Why the price of gas is higher in Canada ( we are exporter) than that in US.
  46. Tony Conner from Edmonton, Canada writes: Dave Jansen - Obama for PM from Canada writes: Sorry Tony, quoting a communist dictator to make a point about how it's okay to lie to people says a lot about where you stand on the issue...

    As well, it's NOT okay under ANY circumstance to have our government lie to us. PERIOD. Saying it's okay because it's been done before is akin to supporting slaverly simply because they used to do it in 1704...

    I NEVER said it was OK. It's just that that's they way it is, and has always been. To pretend otherwise is simply naive.
  47. paul rankin from Canada writes: Why aren't we refining this goo?

    Once again a nation that is resoucre rich but process poor. Keep the jobs here.

    Lets employ Canadian at nice, new refineries in Canada rather than employ Americans. Hey.........sounds like Ford, BM, Chylser, Boeing.....
    sorry thought they were keeping jobs here!
  48. The Bubble from Canada writes: It's naive to think the liars should be kept there because everyone else does it. The liars we've had governing us were never in the game of selling the whole country out like Harper is. Living next to the states we need a government that at least recognizes Americans will take everything if you let them, what we have now is a bunch of Oil Men throwing their legs in the air with wild abandon to keep their business going with the Oil Men of Texas, it's pretty obvious.
  49. paul rankin from Canada writes: Bill Garrsionis right about oil deposits in the shale of Colorado!

    The Americans don't tell you about this! Wait until oil hits $2-300 a barrel for them to start extracting here and really have the world by the balls..........
  50. L Harder from Canada writes: The current free for all environment is a result of a failed wannabe oil man president. As far as I knowl, none of the new candidates on either side have these overt ties so these machinings may come to naught if ghg emmissions are finally taken seriously. I have no dought that when the US finally puts its mind to it that they can reduce dependence on all oil drastically over a short period of time giving them the muscle to take on big oil.

    Stelmach and Harper may be on the wrong side of the curve. I would love to see a change in US direction that would make them scramble revealing them as the toadies that they are.
  51. Tony Conner from Edmonton, Canada writes: Bubble writes: "Quoting a comunist leader to get your point across is telling."

    Anyway, how is it "telling"? It merely demonstrates that politicians are the same everywhere. And where IS that political Utopia that you're were planning on heading for?

    How about this one: "Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists of choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable." That's by a guy born in Dutton, in southwestern ON - John Kenneth Galbraith.

    I can quote all kinds of people - including you, bubble :)
  52. Doug - from Canada writes: refining- we do do it here for our own market, refined products are not usually shipped long distances. But there is refining and then there is upgrading. the mines have an upgrader with them. Almost all of the SAGD sites do no and ship bitumen to market at a lower price. If you want value added then require that only upgraded oil be shipped.

    =

    There is an exception to the shipping refined product. The Irvings have tha largest oil refinery in Canada. Way more than what is required for all of Atlantic Canada. They bring in crude and ship it around the world , mostly States in smaller tankers that they own.
  53. The Bubble from Canada writes: I guess we've chosen the disatrous.
  54. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Mr. Bubble, c'mon, what are you smoking today? For months you have been blasting Western Canadians, at the extreme calling oil patch workers from all of Canada "dirty". Now you are preaching that Americans are your enemy, not Western Canadians. Which is it?
  55. robert F from Toronto, Canada writes: Also, why Canada doesn't build more refinereies and process the oil here is beyond me.

    Sure, be Banana Republic and provide the cheap product to be "built" and reshipped to us.

    Another sad fact is that from what I hear, Canadians don't and will never enjoy the oil sands. Our domestic product is provided...by Saudi Arabia still! So we sell all our own oil, and either re-buy it refined, or from off shore for more money. We never actually use our own product.

    How stupid, but how predictable. This government has no Balls, and is weak and more akin to Vichy France then anything coming close to a ruling government. They march goose-step with the imperials in office down south.

    Thanks Canada for getting screwed again.
  56. The Bubble from Canada writes: Ravensbud, what was the date of that comment I made?
  57. agent sixtynine from Calgary, Canada writes: This is provincial jurisdiction and Albertans are not American haters as many of my fellow Canadians are.
    Do we tell you where you can sell your products?
  58. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: I would say sometime in November 2007. The comment will live in my memory forever as I was disappointed that a Canadian would imply that hard working fellow citizens are inferior because of their occupation and province of residence.

  59. The Bubble from Canada writes: EJ it's clear that Albertans (assuming you are one) can carry a grudge for a long time, hence the constant references to Trudeau. I guess you're natural disposition to hating the east (or desire to foment this hatred) overrides the apology I gave you at Christmas. I was a pressman for many years and my hands were as dirty as an oil workers for that whole time.
    We are not the enemy.
  60. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Agent 69, you have it correct. Canadians, especially in Ontario and Quebec are so quick to dump on Americans, yet howl in protest when Americans suddenly wont buy our lumber, potatoes, and other commodities and goods. They embrace their media and sports and still dump on Americans as imperialists and war mongers.
    Canadians accept the fact, Americans are an enormous influence on the world and our survival economically and politically is totally influenced by them.

  61. Greg Ast from Nanoose Bay, Canada writes: If an oil pipeline is being built from the tar sands then a water pipeline needs to be built from the destination to the tar sands. We need non-potable water to extract the oil from the tar sands and we can't afford to be using the clean water of the Athabaska for this purpose. The refineries at the end of the pipeline use water to cool their processing so send it back to Canada for our use in creating the crude needed as feedstock for the refinery.
  62. globefan EH from Canada writes: Texas has weaker environmental restraints than we do, and OSHA has even fewer teeth. Rustbucket refineries flourish in the morning pollute. Check out the pollution pouring into the waters off Houston and Galveston, you can see it on Google earth, check it out and check out the tar sands too, you just can't smell the air.
  63. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Mr. Bubble, please tell me who is the enemy? This country is tough enough to govern without each region despising another. Now you seem to say that the Americans are the enemy. I want these guys as my friend, not my enemy. I live ten minutes from the border and the folks on the other side treat me with respect and kindness.
  64. The Bubble from Canada writes: Actually American influence in the world is now dependant on Canada.
  65. Tony Conner from Edmonton, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: I guess we've chosen the disatrous.

    Not from where I sit. I guess it depends upon whether you view the oil barrel as half full, or half empty.

    Most other countries in the world would be doing national "high-fives" if they had a resource like this. All half of this country can do is complain endlessly about it. I dunno...
  66. D Mol from Camrose, Alberta, Canada writes: Too bad that Canada's high taxes and over regulation have made it more economical for our oil companies to use Texas facilities and not build our own. So much GDP floating south down the pipes and the Globe spins it as chest thumping proof of our 'gentle giant' status. Too cute.
  67. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Yes, Mr.Bubble dependent on the Alberta oilpatch and the oilpatch workers. What else do they need from us? Water? Maybe in the future, but they possess more than half the Great Lakes and will ship water from Alaska before they trouble us.

  68. The Bubble from Canada writes: EJ it's a common thing to get your own personal relationships confused with the way America is continuing to destroy the planet. I like the individual Americans i've met too but they have nothing to do with the American Government which is what I'm talking about, not the American people who are overwhelmingly trying to get George W Bush out of office before he nukes Iran. You have to see the difference. My biggest hero is Frank Zappa who was reviled by the American government. Check out Franks appearance on Crossfire on youtube in 1986. Twenty plus years ago Frank identified America as becoming a Fascist Theocracy and it's really starting to look like reality. The man was so far ahead of his time it's scary. To label people who are opposed to this manic development of the oilsands so the Americans can continue to waste the stuff doesn't make me a communist or anything like that, i'm just a dad living in Ontario who can see that the direction we're heading is going to come to a very violent and abrubt end no matter what anyone says. It's time the whole country realized we have the ability to control geopolitical events in a more peaceful manner.
  69. The Bubble from Canada writes: Arguing for the sake of arguing.
  70. Michael B from Canada writes: All I can say is, "repent sinners!"... The American elite, who have sucked the life out of so many weaker nations, not to mention their own middle and especially lower classes, is starting to find these sources running dry... More and more, they will turn to the friendly anti-superpower (read "weak" - a condition which, I can assure you, they don't respect) up North, populated by people who support a liar for Prime Minister, whose thirst for power blinds him to the fact that he's pushing us down the road of national serfdom and vassalage.
  71. Dawn from Minnesota from United States writes: To David Mathews in Algeria who wrote: "it's obvious some posters are American who come on here to deliberately create animosity between eastern and western Canada"---- The East vs. West nastiness in Canada, unpleasant comments about Newfoundlanders (Newfies), etc. predates the world wide web. There was an article about Black Tickle, NL, a town that lacks infrastructure and is struggling to survive, that appeared in the online edition of G&M in December. Canadians wrote very nasty post about the people, the town, the East Coast of Canada, Newfies (although the town is in Labrador)... that included one remark suggesting that the residents of Black Tickle are inbred. Most of the comments that were supportive of the town came from Americans. When there are negative comments in this forum made by Americans, the subject is usually politics. We do not get into the pecking that goes on between provinces. Why should we dislike a province or part of Canada based on Canadian rivalries and Canadian history? That sort of thing has nothing to do with us. I suggest that you read American online publications. It is unlikely that you will find a single comment against Canada, and I guarantee that you will not find any comments bashing Newfoundlanders or Canadian provinces, or regions of Canada. Some people need to get a life!
  72. The Bubble from Canada writes: Dawn, maybe you should just keep your American nose in your own country instead of infecting the debate up here. There are Americans who come on here and foment hatred between east and west, it's patently obvious and is done so Albertans can keep hating the east so the Americans have an easier time pilfering all the oil.
    There is nothing so low that and American hasn't or wouldn't do.
    This is not paranoia, this is America.
  73. Howard Beale from Canada writes: There is nothing to prevent the good folks of Ontario from building refineries and pipelines. Albertans will be more than happy to sell you either bitumin or synthetic crude at prevailing market prices.
  74. Tony Conner from Edmonton, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: Actually American influence in the world is now dependant on Canada.

    Hey! Look at us - we're the tail that wags the dog! So does that mean that every bad foreign policy move that the US makes is somehow our fault? We're the enablers? You need a new handle - "The Puppetmaster" :)

    EJ Ravensbud from Canada: You're absolutely right. Lots of posters here delight in bashing our US cousins at every opportunity. When they're buying our stuff - they're "taking us over". When they STOP buying our stuff, they're using "unfair trade practices" - which translates to "PLEASE start buying our stuff again".

    I wonder how many of these same people cross-border shop? Or head for Florida or Hawaii to escape part of the winter. And Vegas, don't forget Vegas. The same sort of people complain about Chinese imports, and yet fill Wal-Mart parking lots night and day.
  75. Gary Thomson from Surrey, BC, Canada writes: I'm not sure that we can divert oil into reserves with NAFTA. We used to have a policy under the Trudeau Liberals that required companies to ensure we had 20 years, I think, worth of Canadian consumption in reserve. Again, NAFTA put an end to that and, though I consider myself a Canadian Nationalist, the reserve idea was pointless. I mean, in what realistic way is Canada going to benefit from the USA having an oil shortage when we do not. Our economies re too intertwined and they are too big.
  76. Ian Gunn from Minneapolis, United States writes: Time to tax bitumen as it leaves the province? $X a barrel? Extra $$ if they ship it out of the country for processing?

    I have to agree, the refining should be done in Canada.
  77. The Bubble from Canada writes: We bash the American government because they use their resources for foolish and hateful wars.
  78. Tony Conner from Edmonton, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: "Dawn, maybe you should just keep your American nose in your own country instead of infecting the debate up here. There are Americans who come on here and foment hatred between east and west, it's patently obvious and is done so Albertans can keep hating the east so the Americans have an easier time pilfering all the oil.
    There is nothing so low that and American hasn't or wouldn't do.
    This is not paranoia, this is America."

    Ya, Dawn - Bubs & the boys are already working this side of the street. Get your own gig, OK?

    Seriously though, I for one, am interested in the American point of view that hasn't been filtered by CNN or CBS. I may or may not agree with it, but I'd still like to hear/read it. Do continue.
  79. Darrin Duell from Landmark, Canada writes: Canada sold out to the U.S. industrialists long ago.. We create an atmosphere that penalizes entrepreneurial spirit up here and then cry when we don't have enough industry to develop our own resources. When are you big government, big spending types going to realize that high taxes and entitlements are undermining our ability to compete globally.
  80. Howard Beale from Canada writes: Ian Gunn, there is a name for your suggestion, it was called the NEP. Good luck with that.
  81. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: "... some posters are American who come on here to deliberately create animosity between eastern and western Canada."

    Do you resent the competition in your niche role?
  82. bill thecat from Canada writes: Darrin Duell says "Canada sold out to the U.S. industrialists long ago.. We create an atmosphere that penalizes entrepreneurial spirit up here and then cry when we don't have enough industry to develop our own resources." Why pick on the Yanks. Western Canada was the hand maiden of the east until Folks like Peter Lougheed stopped the flow of cash out of Alberta into the Federal coffers. They east tried it again with the NEP and devistated our economy (all of Canada's actually). So why would we not look to our 'enemies' to the south when our 'Freinds' to the east have done us so many favours.
  83. Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: Bubble: "The Rednecks have gained power. Canada has more oil than any other country in the world but gurarantees a supply for Americans before guaranteeing a supply for it's own citizens."

    You are switching horses in mid stream bub. Forget the first statement. The second statement has to do with one Brian Mulrooney, the perp of the NAFTA. Mulrooney is not a red neck. He is a sleasy beggar with his hand out!
  84. Dawn from Minnesota from United States writes: To The Bubble and Tony Conner: My concern about the oil industry in Alberta is that the same companies that have raped the environment, poisoned ground water, and caused plenty of human misery down here are involved with the extraction of oil in Alberta. As I mentioned in my comment to the part I article of this series, I spent most of my life cleaning up lakes, rivers, and streams in a five state area. As a result of my exposure to industrial chemicals in the water, I have multiple chemical sensitivity and will suffer from this disability for the rest of my life. I worry that the people of Alberta will be exposed to health problems similar to those that the big boys from the oil fields in Texas created in the United States. I urge the people of Alberta to take periodic water and soil samples and get independent labs to provide test results. If necessary, send the samples to another country. You do not want to have immune system disorders that relate to being poisoned with toxic chemicals. Trust me. You don't! If my comments are "infecting" the debate up there, so be it. I truly wish all Canadians well. I like Canada. I have many Canadian friends and am very interested in what is going on up there. I learn a lot from the G&M articles and from the thoughtful comments that are posed in this forum. If I am incorrect with an observation that I make, please feel free to correct me. The main reason I visit this forum is to learn from all of you.
  85. Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: Thomas Tansley: "The real issue here is how weak Canada is, and how money rules over the environment, and regular societies needs and wants."

    How true. But politicians don't want to talk about that, do they? If they did, they would sign their own DW.
  86. The Bubble from Canada writes: So the Americans and obvious apologists on this line are now accusing me of dividing Canada. It's a great strategy and works well with the general view out west that Eastern Canada is full of communists who would take Alberta's riches.
    It is the biggest propoganda effort on these boards.
    Who are you supporting GlibmHor, it certainly isn't Canada.
    Mulroney is a sleaze. American rednecks have taken over Canada.
  87. The Bubble from Canada writes: The bottom line is the Americans are the only ones who are winning the debate, they have all the oil, they have all the money. They get to pollute Canada unhindered and they will leave when the oil is gone. This is the reality which can't be disputed.
  88. Alyssa Watson from Canada writes: The Americans own us, soon they will own our oil and our space industry .

    http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1046/1
  89. John Cameron from Red Deer, Canada writes: In a funny kind of way since refineries in general are pretty good emitters of CO2 etc exporting some of the bitumen for further refining in the US could be seen as an emission reduction plan for the tar sands.

    Do we get a credit for that? Or is just the initial production that is a particular problem? Seems to me tankered oil into NL or NB or quebec for refining has got quite a bit of added CO2 from the freight already. Never mind the occasional spill or collision with a bridge or something.

    Of course when a boat is loaded nobody really owns it as it is subject to futures trading and could be delivered to the highest bidder taking delivery to offset a long position. Pipelines at least are aiming to a specific place.

    I think a much better topic to talk about as far as national interest is the way in which oil prices are set. For large portions of the last 35 years or more oil has been forced up by OPEC, war premiums, terror premiums etc and lately by large leveraged hedge funds. The pricing mechanism seems to be the various commodity exchanges operating in the US and driven by people to whom a billion or two is just coffee money.
  90. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Mr. Bubble, my concern with your anti-American tilt is that only three months ago you were bashing all Westerners and especially Albertans. You used some pretty derogatory terms to describe your fellow Canadians. Now you have morphed into a Yank hater. I am confused. When did this monumental shift occur? I would sit down and have a beer with you to discuss these issues, especially your hatred for my buddy Steve, but driving to TO is too big a challenge as once I hit Whitby on the 401 I feel like I am in a war zone.
  91. The Bubble from Canada writes: It morphed when I realized that there are charlatans posing as Albertans here. For instance the fellow named ralph klien is an American. I believe there are others, it's deliberate.
    I have many friends in Alberta and stayed there a few times and never before have seen the bashing that comes out of the west towards the east as I have on these boards.
    That goes for people who pose as Quebeckers and chide english canada etc. This seems to be a concerted effort and it is really only in the American's interest to be so offensive.
  92. The Bubble from Canada writes: The myth about all of us being on welfare is done to make us mad. I've worked since I was seven years old. All of my friends work, I don't know anyone on welfare but I guess they exist and probably for reason because Harris made it almost impossible to get it anymore. Alberta needs to learn that Ontario is a market for oil and so is Quebec and ready to buy the stuff. Quebec is really exposed at ninety percent imported. It's better to start framing the debate around what's good for the whole country because our existence has never been more threatened.
  93. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes:"... never before have seen the bashing that comes out of the west towards the east as I have on these boards."

    That tends to happen when easterners start lusting after our money and resources again. 'Once burned, twice shy' as the saying goes.
  94. The Bubble from Canada writes: GlynmHor can't be a Canadian.
    He won't answer where he is from and continues to spew lies about global warming and continues to bash the east. What he does makes no sense because it is always offensive to anyone reasonable and always negative.
    I actually think GlynmHor is Myron Thompson. At the very least, GlynMhor is working for the oil interests, he's way too unreasonable and way too propogandish.
  95. Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: Many have asked why we don't build more refineries in Canada. The simple answer is investment $. I worked on the Petrosar refinery in Sarnia many moons ago. The investors were mainly Yanks, the guys with the money. Today, Nova owns Petrosar. Who owns Nova? Have you ever dealt with an Arabian Shiek to build a refinery in the U.S.? I have. It was called the Copps refinery in Texas. For the exchange of technology, Dow Chemical was to receive 200,000 bbls/d of sweet Saudi crude. We sampled, and we designed the Copps refinery in Texas. The materials rose out of the ground and there it stood, waiting to receive sweet crude. Then our final meetings took place. Dow could not meet their final technology transfer because we didn't know what the hell we (Dow) were doing in NA. The Saudis cancelled and Dow was stuck with a white elephant that you could buy ($600mm) for a buck, if you would assume the debt. I kid you naught. We tried to run on sour Mexican crude for 1 month. The Copps refinery ran at 50,000 bbls/d and went belly up. Moral of this story, is 'You had better get your act together before you deal with the Saudis.' Also, there is one hell of a differnce between seet Saudi oil and sour Mexican crude. The two are not interchangeable, financially speaking, of course ... sigh ...
  96. The Bubble from Canada writes: GlibmHor, lust is a bit of an overstatement, Ontario wants off the oil as fast as possible that's why we are going nuclear, it's at least cleaner until the other sources come on stream. We'll gladly buy it instead of importing, it's all the same price. The sooner we get off mid east oil the better.
    Alberta should be encouraged to process their own oil and a pipeline this way instead of south would not be much more of an expense.
  97. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: "GlynnMhor can't be a Canadian.
    He won't answer where he is from and continues to spew lies about global warming and continues to bash the east."

    All those attributes sound eminently Canadian to me. Western Canadian at the very least.

    Although it has to be understood in context that what Bubbles refers to as 'lies' are like Winston Smith seeing his gaoler's four fingers instead of the five that Big Brother and the Party want to be true.
  98. The Bubble from Canada writes: Unfortunately we vote in politicians who simply don't think big.
  99. The Bubble from Canada writes: where were you born glib?
    you are American aren't you?
  100. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes:"Ontario wants off the oil as fast as possible that's why we are going nuclear..."

    Nuclear power will displace coal, not oil. And if Ontario is really going to 'go nuclear', it had better start soon since lead times are very long unless the local ecofascists can be restrained.
  101. The Bubble from Canada writes: Glib, you are more worried about the Canadian Liberal Party than the Americans under george bush and the big oil interests? sounds like your priorities are out of whack.
  102. The Bubble from Canada writes: I'm from eastern ontario glib. I cheer for the leafs, where are you from?
  103. The Bubble from Canada writes: I believe Stephen Harper is the one holding up nuclear at the moment.
  104. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: "where were you born glib?
    you are American aren't you?"

    All my grandparents were born in Canada, and seven of my eight great grandparents were born in colonies precursor to Canada (one arrived in Upper Canada in 1832 as a child.)

    So I'm at least as Canadian as the vast majority of other Canadians.
  105. The Bubble from Canada writes: Come on GlynMhor, start fessing up, where are you from? It's tiring to read your obvious need to destroy any real debate on here to get past your insane profligation that you are the only person left on the planet that says global warming isn't happening because of human activity.
  106. The Bubble from Canada writes: Where were you born was the question. My Great Grandparents were born in Poland and Ireland.
    I was born here.
    I don't work for the oil business.
    Let us all know where you were born and who you work for.
  107. John Cameron from Red Deer, Canada writes: Well there's a for sure way to make a refinery pay quick..

    Announce you are going to build a big new refinery but to make it pay you've got to close a couple of old ones. So far so good. Public swallows that and so does the government.

    Get the new one all permitted up and some dirt moving etc. About 2 years from finishing it one of the old ones has a serious fire and is not worth patching up again. That should drive the price of gasoline etc pretty high relative to crude. If that's not quite high enough just close the other old one a little ahead of planned shutdown time for reasons of safety.
  108. The Bubble from Canada writes: So you are American aren't you?
    There you have it folks. An extreme vested interest in the oil industry.
  109. Leigh Davis from Canada writes: Alot of you have no idea what you are talking about.

    West of Ottawa, we burn Albertan oil. East of Ontario, oil is imported from Nigeria. When a company wants to extract oil, they must pay royalties to the Government of Canada to do so.. we are not simply allowing the US to stick a straw into the tarsands.

    Refining costs alot, pollutes alot, and I'm sure there are people at these companies who have done the math and have determined it's cheaper to ship by pipeline than refine here.

    I hate how these conversations always devolve into partisan arguments.. you can't say anything without being labelled as an evil conservative or an absentminded liberal.

    I think it's real funny how some people blame George Bush for everything.. sure, he is an idiot, but is it his fault that people choose to buy SUVs when there are smaller, more eco-friendly cars available?

    For all these people screaming for alternative energy.. Did you drive your car to work this morning? Do you turn your lights off when you leave the office? Do you take public transportation?

    If you do, I congratulate you.. now try to convince all the others who don't to follow your lead. Until the demand for SUVs goes down, until our rampant consumerism ceases, the problem will always be the people. A government can only do so much if the people are not willing to change their ways.
  110. The Bubble from Canada writes: Actually Leigh, a lot of eastern Canada imported oil comes from the north sea because of it's proximity. Some comes from Iran and Iraq. If we were able to make a deal with Alberta, we could get rid of this dependancy.
    This isn't about business, it is about sovereignty, he who controls the oil controls the world, this has been going on since the second world war.
    It's too important to simply talk about it in terms of business anymore.
  111. The Bubble from Canada writes: And I still have gas in my car from July last year. I stopped driving, use public transportation and while I don't freeze in the dark, I keep pretty cool with only the lights on in the room I'm in. Keeping the kids from wasting is a part time job. You're ideas should become part of the national psyche.
  112. EJ Ravensbud from Canada writes: Mr. Bubble, you are starting to lose it again! I have to correct you, there are two of us that dont believe in the global warming scam. I am hopeful that it is true as I want to grow a palm tree in my front yard.
    Now, you showed your true colours as you also confessed that you cheer for the "leaves". Wow, no wonder you feel put upon. You have to carry the "leaves" as well as all that hate.
  113. Leigh Davis from Canada writes: Bubble, Ottawa and west burns Alberta oil, I know that for sure.

    Even if the entire country could burn Alberta oil, the prices would not come down.. they are set by the market.

    As far as controlling the world, that means diddly when whats left of the world is in tatters. Unrelenting consumerism is the problem.. why can't we change our ways of consuming so much? I'm not a radical, but I really think we could change alot if we tried to consume less stuff.

    Canadians (per capita) are number 1 at:
    - burning oil
    - using water
    - producing waste
    - producing greenhouse gases

    If there were 300 million of us, then we'd be the bad guy.
  114. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: 20 20 from Canada writes:

    "...would they interfere with our sovereign democracy as they do in Venezuela, covertly funding opposition parties, business elite groups and think tanks?"

    I don't know -- would they?

    You tell me.

    Who funded Harper's campaign to win the Canadian Alliance in 2002?

    Who funds the Fraser Institute, the Atlantic Institute of Market Studies, the Frontier Center for Public Policy, etc., etc.

    Who funds the Civitas Society?
  115. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: This could actually be the national motto for all three major Canadian political parties...

    Think small -- We're Canadian, eh?
  116. The Bubble from Canada writes: I just finally fleshed out GlynMhor. I actually thought he was Canadian. I cheer for every Canadian team as the playoffs go on. When all the Canadian teams are gone I usually stop watching.
    I know we burn some Albertan oil here, we should be burning all Albertan oil here, and we should buy it from Alberta at world prices, no more, no less. We should build some nuclear reactors for the medium term and work like heck to perfect solar, wind, reduction etc. It has to be an overall plan to get rid of coal and oil in the long term.
    I've cheered for Edmonton and think Lanny MacDonalds last game of his career when he scored a goal was one of the best games I've ever watched.
  117. The Bubble from Canada writes: Mulroney had some of Reagans washington campaign men help him too back in the eighties. The conservatives have always been a conduit for American policy in Canada.
  118. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: As far as the Albertans who actually think that we're jealous of their dirty tar in Atlantic Canada...

    lol... I guess our power from tidal, wind, hydroelectric, geothermal, nuclear, natural gas and oil in Atlantic Canada will just have to do...

    sigh!
  119. The Bubble from Canada writes: And that was the Flames I was talking about with Lanny. Dougie Gilmore was playing with him at the time I believe.
    Canadians should leave their rivalries on the ice.
  120. The Bubble from Canada writes: actually no Gilmore wasn't there because he unfortunately doesn't have a stanley cup ring I don't believe. I think I was thinking about Fleury.
  121. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: ...I know we burn some Albertan oil here, we should be burning all Albertan oil here, and we should buy it from Alberta at world prices, no more, no less.

    Bubbles you are fixating again, where do you think your plastics come from (the easy answer is a small town west of Red Deer) and the feestock that supplies the same? Don't just think oil goes into cars - our economy is wrapped up into it, and BTW still waiting for you to explain how to run a 500hp water pump and 30ton chiller for your office tower using solar, dream dreeaaam on Bubs
  122. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Are you telling me Skywall isn't even in Canada?

    GlynnMohr -- Now, I understand why you didn't get my Leafs analogy the other day...

    The Leafs suck, GlynnMohr... they really do... No amount of media spin can fix that problem!
  123. Ian Gunn from Minneapolis, United States writes: Howard Beale from Canada writes:

    "Ian Gunn, there is a name for your suggestion, it was called the NEP. Good luck with that. "

    Not if done by the AB government.... They, along with the residents of Alberta own the resource. Unlike the Canadian government who brought in the NEP and does NOT own the resource. Not so subtle difference..
  124. The Bubble from Canada writes: Robert, I think the idea of Albertans being jealous of Eastern Canada has been a hoax all along perpetrated by the only people who would benefit from it. It's incredible, we've all been duped. Go to the postings about Ed Stelmach walking away from the premiers talks, it's mostly Albertans mad.
    We have to get our house in order, the Americans are playing us all like patsies even more than I thought.
  125. george allanson from Canada writes: The reason no one will build a refinery in western Canada is cost of labour.

    In Texas you can hire a competant welder for $40 an hour. In Alberta it will cost double and the person's motivation will be half.

    Maybe in Ontario, now that they are having employment problems, some people might actually be happy with the chance to earn $40 an hour a year building a refinery.

  126. The Bubble from Canada writes: Building an Ark, most of Ontario energy would come from nuclear, that wasn't even a good try.
  127. The Bubble from Canada writes: Where there's a will, there's a way.
  128. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: Building an Ark, most of Ontario energy would come from nuclear, that wasn't even a good try.

    Just try getting that past the Sierra Legal defense fund, and Nuclear why do you wax on so much for solar then???
  129. The Bubble from Canada writes: I don't wax on about solar, but Ontario is laying down panels for solar now and could be expanded as part of the grid. It's in the mix where we can reduce oil.
    Answer me this Ark: why so negative on renewable energy?
  130. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Bubble:

    We are patsies, Bubble.

    Conrad couldn't get away with the crap south of the border that he pulled here in Canada...

    The Canadian general population just aren't vigilant/involved enough in their own country's affairs to actually see entirely all that is rotten in the state of Denmark...
  131. The Bubble from Canada writes: Ok I gotta go, I'm glad GlinMhor fessed up, or at least by his silence now has admitted he is a yankee. I expect he'll change his name now and carry on, it's sick but makes a lot of sense now.
  132. Howard Beale from Canada writes: Ian Gunn, why would Alberta want to impose such a tax when it's infrastructure is already stretched to the limit? Besides, no province has the constitutional power to impose an export tax. It was the imposition of an export tax by the feds which was at the heart of the NEP. They dare never to go there again.

    As part of the royalty review process the Alberta government considered giving a royalty credit for either upgrading or refining done in the province but in the end it rejected that plan, saying that it would explore other measures to increase processing in the province, including the possibility of taking it's royalty in kind, as it does for most NG.
  133. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: Answer me this Ark: why so negative on renewable energy?

    Bubs not negative, being practical. Solar is at best a cottage craft industry. An entire residential developement south of Calgary installed it (High River) and you know what, it doesn't generate electricity as the amps aren't enough - solar heats water for domestic use, that's it, you can't run a microwave and forget an oven so that's where I'm coming from. If you are waiting for solar around the 401 highway area when it's July and you need some ac Faugetaabouit! Now led lighting and t-5 lamping in your old office towers would go a lot farther...
  134. The Bubble from Canada writes: No one has ever said solar would replace anything, it just helps. Nuclear is cleaner in the short term which would allow us the ability in the short and medium term to stop the ghg's which is the killer at the moment. It's only logical. Anyone thinking negatively at this point is simply useless, everyone and everything has to be pointed at reducing ghg's and the oilsands are the biggest contributor in Canada. It's ridiculous that Alberta is expanding faster than it humanly can just to supply the American demand. It makes no sense.
  135. The Bubble from Canada writes: If everyone heated their water with solar, that would do.
  136. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes:Anyone thinking negatively at this point is simply useless, everyone and everything has to be pointed at reducing ghg's and the oilsands are the biggest contributor in Canada.

    Bubs, we've been at this before, your impetuous youthful rants clearly indicate that you have yet to experience a business world, perhaps you are hoping for your dream job - and when you do your superiors (and they just might be Canadian) will ask you to do a cost benefit report. When you do you might find out that Ontario is doing quite well fashioning pressure vessels, pumps tanks motors etc. like they always have, only the customers are in Ab. so go ahead and chop the head off the golden goose to raise yourself out of your basement. You'll find that Canada is doing quite well - as naysayers like you throw convenient arrows at Ab. BTW anybody that holds a differing opinion than your is not useless or not negative - but I suppose you skipped that class in finishing school - too bad
  137. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: If everyone heated their water with solar, that would do.

    It would be a start, ever looked at on demand hot H20 , saves even more. Why aren't Provincial Govt's offering upgrade incentives???
  138. Robert Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: GlynnMohr from Skywall:

    For what it is worth, you opinion is still welcome on these threads...

    Just drop the phony name and state your real location...

    Honest dialogue... Hmmm... It might just be crazy enough to work!
  139. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: ROMA LUCIW
    Globe and Mail Update January 28, 2008 at 3:52 PM EST

    The bad news is that like the United States, Canada's economy is shedding manufacturing jobs. The good news is that unlike the U.S., Canada is replacing them with high-quality work in the public administration and energy extraction sectors...Work in low-paying sectors – such as general goods retail stores, gasoline stations and clothing factories – slumped by 1.2 per cent last year. However, the number of full-time paid employment in well-compensated areas – like public administration and oil and gas extraction – jumped 3.6 per cent.

    Bubs just remember you need to find employment, and the Pembina Institute doesn't pay enough to buy a house in the Beaches...
  140. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: The Bubble from Canada writes: I just finally fleshed out GlynMhor.

    Bubs - did your parents just flesh you out of the basement for dinner? Hello Bubs are you out there???
  141. Still Learning at 77 from Canada writes: Perhaps it time to look at Norway's way of treating is citizens with is oil resources. Their oil sovereign fund is second to the UAE. in wealth. In a decade it is expected to amount to $180,000 for every man woman and child in Norway. (Google it. New York Times article.) Kind of makes me feel ashamed of Canada. Norway has about 5 Million people. Alberta you are being taken.
  142. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Still - ever worked in Oil and Gas? - Norway has a geological and geographical advantage - they put a shallow straw into the ocean and stuff comes out. In Canada we lead the world in slant drilling, deep pool fracturing - never mind you just won't understand moving to Norway is still an option though...
  143. bill thecat from Canada writes: Hey still learning at 77. I would agree with you, except that I worked with about 20 norwegians. They were ecstatic to be in Canada. They all loved their homeland, however, while they were in Canada they were in awe at the cheap cost of living. At the time, i could buy a minivan for about 25K$, they were paying 80-100K. They were relentless in wanting to go out for lunch/dinner due to the fact that a pizza and a pop would be an $100 outing back home, and I am not exaggerating. These folks earned similar wages to myself, and when I did the math on living here vs. Norway, i was amazed that any of them wanted to go home. They do have a good quality of life, but don't delude yourself that they are better off.
  144. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: Pierre Eliot Trudeau: what an idiot! Imagine where we'd be if we weren't able to export crude oil, and import refined petroleum. Even worse, imagine the Government raking in the bucks (as just about every where else) rather than AMOCO.

    Wait a minute . . .
  145. Howard Beale from Canada writes: Still Learning, you are right Alberta is being taken..by the rest of Canada. Add the $100 billion stolen during the NEP along with the $20 billion plus paid into equalization every year and guess what, we would have the same kind of fund as Norway.
  146. J T from Victoria, Canada writes: Exactly right Still Learning - Alberta is being taken. By the rest of Canada. Norway's fund is about $200 Billion. Since 1962 Alberta's net contribution to the rest of Canada has has been over $244 Billion. Would you agree this amount is comparable to Norway's fund? So instead of Alberta having all this money, Canada does. But you blame Alberta for, well, ...not having all this money in a fund. How Canadian. And just for comparison, over the same period of time, Ontario's net contribution was $315 Billion. But on a per capita basis that works out to $2500 per Albertan EVERY year for 40 years and $758 per Ontarian. And the Heritage Fund? Alberta very kindly lent billions of it to other provinces for decades at interest rates of 2-3% when prime was double digits. I guess all the thank you cards got lost in the mail. And the eastern media like the Globe and CBC forgot to mention Alberta's generosity. I'm sure they will get around to it. But then Alberta values are not Canadian values, according to Paul Martin.
  147. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: J.T and Howard Beale: the difference is, of course, Ontario money comes from sweat, and oil money is pumped from the ground. This too: I own my sweat. I also own a share of Alberta oil, since its a crown resource -- how the proceeds from that resource are apportioned is a matter for negotiation.
  148. J T from Victoria, Canada writes: Oh Winston. How sadly ignorant. Unless London has moved to Alberta, you don't own squat. Provinces own resources, so Alberta owns the oil and gas. The feds just have the right to tax. And please keep your sweat that you are so proud to own to yourself. There's a reason Calgary has the highest per capita post secondary level of education and the best educated workforce in Canada - it takes intelligence, careful investment and innovation to get oil and gas resources out of the ground. Obviously you are where you belong. Sweat work is so last century old economy. Negotiation? Try Clarity Act.
  149. Howard Beale from Canada writes: Winston, it's because of people with your attitude that Louis Riel lead two rebellions.
  150. John Cameron from Red Deer, Canada writes: Pretty hard to compare Norway, alaska et al to Alberta as far as money in the bank goes. Most of our oil is still in the ground getting more valuable as time goes on instead of losing value like putting it in a heritage fund.

    I think we should just call in all the chips that the Fund is invested in now and put it in gold for the time being. We don't need the interest anyway.

    Alberta is paying cash for infrastructure upgrading, if there had to be a lot of borrowed money it would be a whole different picture as to payoff etc.
  151. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes:"... Ontario money comes from sweat, and oil money is pumped from the ground."

    You might watch an episode of that program focussing on the oil rig workers. Just one will do to learn about some of the sweat it takes to get oil from the ground.

    Your assertion is like claiming all of Ontario's mineral wealth just fell out of the ground.
  152. Tony Conner from Edmonton, Canada writes: george allanson from Canada writes: "The reason no one will build a refinery in western Canada is cost of labour.

    In Texas you can hire a competant welder for $40 an hour. In Alberta it will cost double and the person's motivation will be half.

    Maybe in Ontario, now that they are having employment problems, some people might actually be happy with the chance to earn $40 an hour a year building a refinery."

    Rig welders earn more than that, but they have a significant investment in a welding machine, and at least a 3/4 ton 4X4 to haul it around. They're contractors, so they have to have all the required insurance, etc. All expenses like fuel for the welding machines come out of their hourly rate.

    "Welders by hand" are journeyman welders ('B' pressure ticket) can be hired for not much more than $40 per hour, including benefits. The 80 buck an hour cost (not PAY, but COST to the employer) might be for camp work in the boonies, but not for "in town" projects. If you have to pull in a out-of-towners, LOA (living-out allowance) will normally kick-in, and that is usually in the order of $85 per working day.

    Alberta is where the work is - it's basic supply & demand. The money is very good. But to suggest that everybody in the pipe trades here is pulling down $80/hr is not true.
  153. Tony Conner from Edmonton, Canada writes: J T from Victoria, Canada writes: "Sweat work is so last century old economy."

    Quite so, all the pipe trades, ironworkers, crane operators, electricians, etc are totally un-necessary to the construction & maintenance of the oil sands projects, upgraders & refineries. We all only exist as pixels on a computer screen. We're a "virtual" workforce.

    Flush out your headgear, JT.
  154. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: GlynnMhor: Ontario's mineral wealth is also crown, for what its worth. You own a piece of that, in the same sense as I own a piece of Alberta oil. What I meant by 'Ontario sweat' is, for example, the auto industry -- what really keeps this province afloat.
  155. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: JT: Provinces don't own resources. The Crown does. This isn't a fine point. The issue is that the crown, in Canada is divisible, so there's alot of negotiation between levels of government. It is true that royalties are collected by Provinces. Its also true that both levels of Government have the right to tax. Its finally true that the federal government has the exclusive right to regulate the export of natural resources.
  156. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: "GlynnMhor: What I meant by 'Ontario sweat' is, for example, the auto industry -- what really keeps this province afloat."

    And what *I* meant by 'sweat' was the oil industry that contributes so much to Alberta's well being. Oil doesn't just come out of the ground any more than cars just pop out of factories.
  157. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: My central point always was that I'd rather read stories about refineries opening in Alberta, than about yet another form of wealth being exported South; and I'd rather read about processing making somebody in this country rich rather than our brothers South. But what's the point? Keep it all: its all good. When the oil runs out, no whinging OK?
  158. Still Learning at 77 from Canada writes: bill thecat from Canada ---- you are right the cost of living is very high in Norway. they are also very strict on who can immigrate to their country. By the way I happen to be one of many who did the first seismic work on the Athabaska tar sands. Kinda wish I had'nt for the sake of my Grandchildren.

    Have a good day Bill
  159. R Lam from Calgary, Canada writes: Hey bubble. I'm going to create a website and spout out a bunch of non-sensical lies and fake some pdf documents that support your views. When you stumble apon them during your empty days of websurfing while taking meds for your mental illness, you'll no doubt vent them back here and we'll all know the entent of your knowhow!
  160. Ian St. John from Canada writes: "Bill Garrison from Tuttle, Oklahoma, United States writes: Some funny things happen in the States concerning energy. "

    Ha ha. thanks for the laugh..

    "There is more oil locked up in the sands and shales of Western Colorado and eastern Utah than there is in all the middle east. Tests have proven that. "

    Yup and it's going to stay there. The issue is 'economically recoverable' oil.

    "The north slopes of Alaska has much more oil than Venezuela does. Again, tests have proven that."

    Nope. In fact, the pipeline is going to have to shut down in the next decade or so as production declines below some 'minimum volume' necessary to keep the oil flowing.

    "The State of Florida prohibits drilling of oil wells within 200 miles of it's gulf shores."

    With good reason given the money from tourism vs a minor potential oil discovery. Same reason that California doesn't want to foul its beaches for a pittance in oil revenues.

    Nothing here but some misdirection and bafflegab.
  161. david pereira from Kw, Canada writes: let me get this straight ... there's no environmental impact on producing the oil? No ones getting sick and no there's contamination to lakes, plant and animal life? god bless canamerica
  162. mark ruby from Canada writes: OK, so the Globe and Mail doesn't much like my oponions on this, so I will lighten up a little. The facts are these: - The oil sands are now one of the worst sources of pollution in the world. - To quadruple this mess is a travesty, and to attempt to hide this fact from Albertans and Canadians is disgusting. - These plans, if implemented, will utterly destroy Albertas' reserves of natural gas, and last time I checked, we need gas here in the winter or people will die. - Fresh water use by these megaprojests will cripple our fresh water resources over time, also a very ucefull thing if we plan on living here. - Our governments are succumbing to massive U.S. pressure to provide this source of oil, so they can continue to waste the worlds precious supplies of fuel, and pollute everything in sight, as they have for the last 50 years. As Dick Cheney seemed to indicated a couple of years ago, the concept of conservation is not part of their vocabulary. - Our goals now should be to develope new sources of energy, green solutions, and begin to put an end to this mindless waste of our earth. Lets start now, by denying Mr. Bush his goal of unlimited oil supplies, while we still have some control of the situation. - The recent agreement, signed on Feb. 14, in Texas, between our two armies/governments, where it appears that American troops will be able to quell any disputes over this resource, on CANADIAN soil, and not under Canadian orders is treasonous, and should indicate to us the Americans attitude about this situation. It should scare the hell out of all Canadians, it sure scares me.

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