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PRISONERS IN AFGHANISTAN

What Ottawa doesn't want you to know

PAUL KORING

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 1:31 AM EDT 25/04/07

Censored documents show government was told Afghan detainees faced 'extrajudicial executions, disappearances, torture and detention without trial' ...Read the full article

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  1. Larry Robinson from white Rock, Canada writes: This story has been flogged to death.

    Move on.
  2. C R from Canada writes: WHAT A DISGRACE!
  3. Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada writes: Is there any aspect of militarism that is not soaked in lies? The US Congress is now learning how the US military lied in the early goings of their wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, creating some hero-worship crap that was a total fabrication, and here in Canada our military brass and their political bosses are tripping over their own deceipt and lies.
    Liars, Right Honorable Liars.
  4. Jim Terrets from Vancouver, writes: Gee, there's a shock -- the Harper regime is trying to cover up knowledge of torture and human rights violations. Harper, Day and O'Connor are the Canadian version of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld and are just as competent as their 'heroes' and just as respectful of human rights.

    We all know Bush and Co. are driven by ideology, oil and war profiteering, but why are Harper and his cronies following the Bush agenda? There's no oil money in it for Canada so maybe down the line, they're expecting some nice positions at corporate boards courtesy of Poppa Bush as a reward for standing by the President. The other option is that they are insane. Maybe both. The only certain thing is that they are war criminals and should be prosecuted in the Hague.
  5. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Well, I guess this puts 'PAID' to Harper and O'Connor's ploy to do nothing until the 'allegations and rumours' are proven. Will Harper and O'Connor continue to besmirch Canada and our troops? STOP ALL DETAINEE TRANSFERS NOW! If you support our troops, save them from War Crimes.
  6. Ben Rankin from Montreal, Canada writes: shame on the conservatives and ndp
  7. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Why such cynicism? Is this just a case of not wanting to hear bad news? This is a serious accusation, with potentially serious consequences. And it seems to me, that the charge is pretty credible. I mean, healthy skepticism is a good thing, but so is critical reasoning, and I don't see why we should dismiss this report--frankly, I highly doubt the government is going to be so dismissive. Honestly, this shouldn't be about liberals vs. cons vs left vs. right. This is a serious charge that the government has to either disprove or address in some capacity. As for Ravinder Mlait's inane comment: 'rights of the Taliban'. This shouldn't even be up for debate. In fact it isn't! What's concern here is the legal and ethical obligations of our troops. We are a democratic, law-abiding nation, and therefore we need to conduct ourselves appropriately. Otherwise, we only hurt ourselves, taint our mission. Our calls for freedom ring hollow. Surely, the cons themselves would never accept that they could be complicit in torture, regardless of who is being 'handed over.' It's a non-starter. So I propose that in the interests of good discussion, we stop insinuating (or outright stating) that some people actually deserve to be deprived their basic human rights. It's an inane suggestion that no-one in the government--right or left--would seriously entertain!
  8. Ron Cobb from Victoria, Canada writes: Buh bye O'Connor...
  9. Mahatma Gandhi from Calgary, Canada writes: I am hopping mad. These ideologically obsessed goons were elected because of Adscam. Adscam was petty corruption. Money was siphoned off by some parasites.

    But this is about torture and murder. This is not about a bribe, or a payoff. This is about unspeakable pain, and bloody murder. This is about doing Bush's dirty work.

    Throw the bums out. Now. I want my dignity back. I want my country back.
  10. Pamphleteer . from Canada writes: I don't understand how the Globe and Mail obtained a copy of the report that wasn't as edited as the highly blacked out one. The article seems to intimate that the Globe obtained two different versions of the report. What is going on here?

    And as usual the torture apologists are out in full steam denouncing this news story. Typically, they cannot be bothered to understand that the rights of captured prisoners to be free from torture and degrading treatment is enshrined in Afghan national law and international law. Whatever are the transgressions of Taliban insurgents, they must be accorded certain basic rights and dignities. It behooves Canada, as one the few countries in the world that actively safeguards and promotes human rights, to do all in its power to ensure all prisoners are treated humanely. For it do otherwise would signal that Canada has turned its back on all its holds dear.
  11. Peter Cromerovich from Erehwon, Canada writes: Ravinder Mlait: Care to explain how this hurts Canada's national defense and security?
  12. Jasmine D from Ottawa, Canada writes: As aggrevating as it is to hear the same story over and over again with 'new' information and whatnot, it's worse to see that nothing is being done about it. Clearly something is happening, so why won't the politicians admit that they made a mistake and fix it? I agree, this makes them war criminals, but I think what's more important is that the problem be stopped before they are persecuted for these crimes (if they ever are, that is). Canada prides itself of peace-keeping and upholding human rights, so why do the current politicians want to destroy not only other nations that they are trying to help (now doesn't that just scream Bush wars) as well as our own?
  13. Sicka Polititians from Vancouver, Canada writes: Well, we don't have to wait for something like impeachment here in Canada - let's just throw the bums out. They were given a chance to be accountable and honest and decent - I think Steve used some of those very words when asking us for his support instead of voting for the 'lying and corrupt Liberals'. I am so sick of politicians and their transparent manipulating. We could solve a number of problems at the same time if we could get them all to keep their yappers shut, we'd have peace and quiet and an immediate reduction in global warming because all the hot air would be contained.
  14. The Religious Left from Canada writes:
    Unbelievable. What happened to this country? What happened to our moral standards? What happened to an open and accountable government?
  15. Pamphleteer . from Canada writes: Jim Shepherd: The moral cowardice of our enemy doesn't give us a blank cheque to respond in kind.

    What the hell is wrong with you people?
  16. LJ Brody from Canada writes: what a disgrace - our involvement in this war must end now.
  17. Dwayne Allan from Canada writes: First thing the Cons say is here we go more sympathy for the Taliban.What about 'How many more times will this 'new' government bold face lie to us?' They aren't being 'HONEST' and with the blacked out document they aren't being 'TRANSPARENT' nor are they being 'OPEN' when asked and they aren't being 'ACCOUNTABLE' if they are denying this in the HoC.Talk about 'INTEGRITY'.Five more promises they've kept.Oh wait a minute,they only kept one out of the original five anyway.Hows that 1% GST cut working for all you Con voters?This 'Harper is scary' notion is starting to come to light.
  18. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Jim Shepherd, what a useless comment! Perhaps you might consider thinking before you write! Should we Canadians lower our standards so that we can somehow be on level with--who?--the Taliban? Why don't we just have our troops do the torturing themselves, then. At least we could better control how/when people are tortured. Maybe we could re-introduce the firing squad too. And even televise it to really send a message! Very smart!
  19. siren call from Canada writes: Interesting to watch Stockwell Day try to spin concern for prisoners as support for Taliban. How ridiculous.

    We don't know the political/tribal/ethnic/religious affiliations of those who are being turned over. In some cases they will be people who have been shooting at Canadians forces -- in SOME cases.

    The past 5 years have been rife with people calling their neighbour a Talib, having them arrested and it turns out -- there was a property dispute about grazing lands between the two people. Or bad blood going back generations. Or police have arrested people who refused to give them bribes. We have no idea the stories of those who are 'turned over'.

    Oh and the most important reason to be concerned: Because our soldiers could be tried for war crimes in the Hague. Sound good to the Stockwell Day types?
  20. Mr Fijne from Calgary, Canada writes: As much as it is understood war is not a frigging lollypop meeting of smiling babies, the government is not truthful... again. Brian Gable the Globe cartoonist, should have a Black Pen day soon: between Flaherty's blacked out pseudo justification for the ITrust decision -that he wants back...- and these new severely blacked out documents, what's next? The fire is burning now under O Connor... that might expalin why Flaherty is suddenly accommodating with regard to the interest deductability carnage... Harper is worried...
  21. Not the Alliance from In my opinion, the Harper Gov't is still Incompetent, Canada writes: Knowledge that you are transferring prisoners to be tortured is bad enough. But the Gov't lying to the Canadian public about this knowledge is even worse.
  22. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Jim Shepard from Peru: What 'we' round eye? Who the heck are you talking about? Get a grip on yourself, man, or let go of yourself long enough to understand that Canadians are talking about CANADIAN politics and actions, and peanuts from Peru are, well, peanuts.
    There have so far been no Canadians captured by the Taliban, thank goodness! But now, with Canada's New Government TM being onside, expect that to happen. As if it's any of your Peruvian business anyway.
    I can tell you are afraid. Those tactics aren't working out there well either, are they hmmmm?
    Are you one of them 'round eyes' who've been like michens on Peru, steadily eating away the people? If so, stick to what you know. Canada doesn't go like that. Not so far, anyway.
    MYOB, Jim Shepard. Or go fight in Afghanistan or try to get a passport or visa here in Canada with your views, then beak off.
  23. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: I guess when the Liberals were in power and sent our troops there in the first place the Afghans were nicer to their Taliban captives.
  24. Pamphleteer . from Canada writes: Read this people:

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070424/pashmuldetainee070424/20070424?hub=TopStories

    Not all of the prisoners being handed over are Taliban members. Many people are being beaten and tortured at the hands of overzealous Afghan authorities when they are not even Taliban, only suspected of being such. Not all is black and white. There are many shades of grey and not everyone in custody is a lowly criminal 'dirtbag.'

    The article also details the professionalism of Canadian troops. Of course that was never the issue. The torture apologists have wrongly chided the critics as being harsh on 'our boys.' What nonsence. The issue was and is whether these prisoners should be leaving Canadians hands.
  25. Joe Bloe from Canadian city, Canada writes: Defence Minister O'Connor: Adios muchacho!
  26. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: And BTW, it really made me see red to hear Harper and O'Connor dismiss these people as 'Taliban' when the report lists the detainees interviewed as Afghanis, one a tailor, another a farmer... wouldn't it have been more factual to call them Afghanis? Especially since after a few torture sessions these people were let go? Not all Afghanis are 'Taliban' and one would think one's government would or should know the difference.
    STOP ALL DETAINEE TRANSFERS NOW!
  27. R C from Canada writes: I have little faith in a censored access to information document. The United Nations site offers little public information on the current humanitarian state in Afghanistan. I thought a new era of openness, honesty and transparency had evolved over the last decade; this is obviously not the case.
  28. Not the Alliance from In my opinion, the Harper Gov't is still Incompetent, Canada writes: This is a one man gov't. What would getting rid of O'Connor really do other than provide a scapegoat for Harper?
  29. Mr. Hab from Singapore writes: Larry Robinson from white Rock, Canada writes: 'This story has been flogged to death.' I guess war crimes and the Geneva convention, mean nothing in the neo-con world. The only thing flogged to death here is prisoners, ones who are supposed to be protected in a civilized world. Get off your couch and drop your remote. You have lived too long in a comfy lifestyle. Pick up your knuckles, they are dragging on the ground.
  30. Yogie Bear from Canada writes: All of this from a Con minority government who has been in power for 18 months.

    Imagine how it would be with with a Con majority for 4 years.
  31. The Religious Left from Canada writes:
    Not the Alliance from In my opinion, the Harper Gov't is still Incompetent, Canada writes: Once again, I just HAVE to ask. WTF are you talking about?????

    What do the Conservatives ALWAYS talk about when they screw up? The Liberals of course. It's going to take a lot of Adscam to wash away this one Karol.
  32. The Religious Left from Canada writes:
    jeff mactavish from Canada writes:
    The torture of Taliban prisoners saves lives, plain and simple.

    Source?

    Because I can provide plenty of sources about the inaccuracy of information obtained by torture.
  33. Pamphleteer . from Canada writes: jeff mactavish wrote 'You get to bask in the freedom and safety we have here and you have the nerve to criticize those that provide that for you.'

    Colonel Jessup, is that you?
  34. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Not the Alliance, Liberals got duped twice in one day that is a new record. Rent a movie 'Absence of Malice' or 'The Sting', better still 'Wag The Dog'.
  35. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: jeff Mctavish, you make such a good speech for the cause, why hasn't o'connor snapped you up for a glorious career overseas? are you too old? too many kids? too young? are you a farmer and perhaps likely to 'go soft' on an Afghani farmer? What is holding you back from your heart's desire? You YOU could be one of those heroes of torture you hold so dear. Go for it, jeff, the whole world is waiting for you.
  36. Pamphleteer . from Canada writes: lol, some of these torture apologists need to stop taking 24 so literally.
  37. Don't Want To from Canada writes: Hidden Agenda? via stevejanke.com (Amir Attaran, a vocal critic of Canada's treatment of Taliban prisoners and of the Canadian government, has a deep and personal relationship with the Liberal Party. Are his attacks motivated by his academic background, or are they partisan political attacks scripted by the Liberal Party? Who is Amir Attaran? Dr. Amir Attaran is a lawyer (LL.B., University of British Columbia) and immunologist (DPhil, Oxford) who writes on public health and global development issues. Dr. Attaran is also a forceful human rights advocate, having called for international prosecutions to end the crimes against humanity perpetuated by the regime in Zimbabwe, and recently having joined with NGOs to criticize Canada's military for failing to protect the rights of detainees they arrest during their mission in Afghanistan, including to expose those detainees to the risk of torture or transfer to Guantanamo Bay. Amir Attaran is currently Associate Professor of Law and Population Health, and the holder of the Canada Research Chair in Law, Population Health and Global Development Policy at the University of Ottawa, Canada. Previously he was an adjunct lecturer in Public Policy at Harvard University, publishing research as part of the Center for International Development and the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at the John F. Kennedy School of Government. Amir Attaran, now Canada research chair in law, population health, and global development policy at the University of Ottawa was a research fellow at the Kennedy School during Mr. Ignatieff's time at the Carr. He ran afoul of an influential faculty member and the school's administration over a line of academic inquiry he insisted on pursuing, and found himself about to be booted out. He brought his troubles to Mr. Ignatieff, who gave him office space and mentoring support until he could find another academic home. 'Michael stuck up for me against some extremely nasty attacks,' Prof Attaran says)
  38. Not the Alliance from In my opinion, the Harper Gov't is still Incompetent, Canada writes: Religious Left - you're right. How long before this blog is filled with 'Lieberals', 'Libranos', etc.

    Will be interesting to see how our Dear Leader handles this though. Will he do the old 'lay low and hide until it blows over' like he did with Emerson, or will he take more of an 'I was misinformed' stance. Of course you're probably right - he will take the 'liberals are all corrupt' defense. It's always worked for him in the past - got him his minority after all.

    Harper better shovel over another million to that separatist who's leading the witch hunt - he's going to need that 'report' sooner than expected!!
  39. Not the Alliance from In my opinion, the Harper Gov't is still Incompetent, Canada writes: I think Jeff Mactavish is just dying to say 'You can't HANDLE the truth'.
  40. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Geesh. Is there a full moon in Toronto tonight?

    In Toronto, we only get the right to death and taxes.

    In Afghanistan, only assasins have rights.

    Am I missing something here? Best Regards.
  41. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: jeff mactavish from Canada writes: Jo Ingblat,
    When you have a gov't that has turned an entire country into a whining bunch of politically correct cowards then yes you do have to rely on other countries to do our dirty work for us.'
    jeff mctavish, besides your pitiful use of who's who and who's you in you prose, are you suggesting that Canada might need the help of Peru to torture people? Hey, get on board! email Stockwell Day and Gordon O'Connor, and the Boss Harp. All can be found at gov.ca. They're on your side. Get help there...
    Since when has Canada needed another government's help to torture people? Please advise.
    This seems like a recent development, and considering Canada's New Government TM and its reticent ways, perhaps you have some info. Which other governments has Canada's New Government (TM) used to bolster its progress? Come on back now, ya hear.
  42. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Not the Alliance, PM Harper will take on a chest with 'I was misinformed by the Ministry of Propaganda' stance.
  43. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Steve Janke's a wank, and a paid hack. Check out what he had to say about Wajid Khan. Before Khan was 'famous' in the worst government in Canada's history.
  44. george mcfly from calgary, Canada writes: wow, the globe and mail is trying sell more papers in toronto,the star and the national post the same.I guess it is a fight to the finish?
  45. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: jeff mactavish and Jim Shepherd. Ha hahahahaha. Comically moronic. You need to come with credible, intelligent ideas, people! I have nothing against conservatives or the right--they're a lot of smart right wingers out there who have good things to say. But if you cannot come up with anything intelligent to say other than using rehashed talking points from Rambo movies or Fox news, then, well....enough said! PS. I'm not a liberal, dummy.
  46. Not the Alliance from In my opinion, the Harper Gov't is still Incompetent, Canada writes: Karol - I not following. Harper will 'take on a chest'????? Is his image consultant getting him some impants or something? Going to a 42D from a 41C?

    BTW the Harper 'conservative's' 17,000 square foot Ministry of Propaganda is SUPPOSED to misinform. But the public, NOT Harper.
  47. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: The Phantom: An Editor has been duly notified. Best Regards.
  48. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Jim Sheperd from Peru, supposedly. Well, if you look out you window, is it light? And later, will you see a moon? If so, then it cannot be a full moon in Canada. Nice try with the supernatural stuff, but with our current government with a psychic as right hand lady to the PM Canadians certainly don't need to be taking moony advice from you. Canadians already pay for our own, thank you. Best you stick to Peruvian politics.
    And as an aside and by the by, perhaps you should take yourself out to a lonely peak and think about your life. It'll do you good, and no one else can do it for you.
  49. I. Rivera from Oliver, Canada writes: jeff mactavish from Canada writes: I guess when the Liberals were in power and sent our troops there in the first place the Afghans were nicer to their Taliban captives.
    Posted 25/04/07 at 1:43 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    Jeff, grow up already. Forget about blaming the Liberals for everything that goes wrong with the Alliance Party. You should be hanging your head in shame for those stupid comments. We are Canadians not Afghans & we should make sure that those prisoners are treated fairly before they are handed over to the Afghans.
  50. ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada writes: In other words, the Harper government lies to us. They denied the existence of the Foreign Affairs report in writing no less. Then they selectively withheld from us the fact that there was torture, leaving in only the positive points. Then Harper raised doubt about what the Globe and Mail's journalists uncovered, without ever mentioning this Foreign Affairs report.

    There is absolutely no way that he would not have been aware of this report. Even if Harper weren't the control freak that he is.

    That is lying. Withholding and omitting critical parts of the truth is lying. Selectively presenting us with only the positive bits left in to give us a doctored picture of the situation is state propaganda.

    The Harper government is like the Bush administration that cherry-picked intelligence to support its bogus claims of WMD's in Iraq and that engages in a culture of secrecy. Both should be impeached for lying to the public.
  51. Peter Cromerovich from Erehwon, Canada writes: Pamphleteer: '...not even Taliban, only suspected of being such..' You mean innocent until found guilty? Now there's an interesting concept, but I don't think that it will go over too well with O'Connor, Stockwell et al -a matter of National Security and all that. Where's ivan more the Terrible on this board tonight?
  52. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Mary O'Hara from Toronto, do you know what 'red herring' means? Nobody said anything about supporting the taliban or not supporting the troops. It's about policy regarding procedures/conduct of our soldiers (i.e. should we hand over prisoners to the Afghan gov?). Why in the world would we Canadians want to in any way shape or form be complicit in torture??? Things like Abu Ghraib help our enemies--in the end they only hurt our troops and our mission. Please think before you write!
  53. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Canada is loosing innocence, Liberals are getting crash course in hardball politics as cruel reality seeps into ivory towers of their lives, lefties are getting stripped of their lies and self deceptions, what else is new??
  54. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Karol Karolak. Your comments don't make a lot of sense most of the time.
  55. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: K Karolak, you are the ones 'loosing' your bowels because you Know you are Killing people for a Knit-witted sKeme that won't fly, not even in the Kanada of your dreams.
    Koncervatives are being sKewered on their own Kabobs.
    The Kon Knowledge is lacKing, the Knuts and bolts of their Konfabulations are beKoming Known, and the end is Knigh.
  56. The Phantom from Canada writes: Jo Ingblat writes:'I have nothing against conservatives or the right--they're a lot of smart right wingers out there.'

    ???There are??? Where 'out there' are they??? They certainly haven't been posting any comments on these forums. I used to believe in the mythical intelligent Harper supporter but in light of a complete lack of evidence I now believe they do not exist.

    BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW.
  57. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Not the Alliance from In my opinion, the Harper Gov't is still Incompetent, Canada writes: Karol - I not following. Harper will 'take on a chest'????? Is his image consultant getting him some impants or something? Going to a 42D from a 41C?

    BTW the Harper 'conservative's' 17,000 square foot Ministry of Propaganda is SUPPOSED to misinform. But the public, NOT Harper.
    Posted 25/04/07 at 2:24 AM EDT

    Martin and Cretin before him never knew anything about Adscam, Haper never knew about torture of prisoners in Afghanistan. What is so hard for you to understand???
  58. Peter Cromerovich from Erehwon, Canada writes: Karol Karolak: 'lefties are getting stripped of their lies and self deceptions'. What else is new? Well, I'd have to say that in this particular instance that righties are getting stripped of their lies and self deceptions, once all the usual logical fallacies and obfuscation are stripped away, of course. The only thing torture is good for is getting a confession out of most people regardless of guilt but it is spectacularly unreliable.
  59. colin broughton from Edmonton, Canada writes: Canada can not act like the US and get away with it. Team Canada World Police is going to find ourselves in the docket if we keep this nonsense up. BTW can anybody say what the goal of this fairly pricey operation might be??? So far, I see us burning crops to win hearts and minds, and then treating every grape farmer as Taliban until they can prove otherwise. Meanwhile our military does everything it can to bury the true cost of this war. I do hope the new defense minister can sort this out, and fast.
  60. Duncan Munro from Langley BC, Canada writes: In WW2 Canada did not torture prisoners, being held in our PoW camps, nor did Britain and the USA. Now, in a war against a backward, non-industrial opponent we are being told to turn a blind eye to torture and murder, and many right wing, Liberal and Conservative hacks actually try to convince people that this is a good idea...but it begs the question as to why we should be fighting for a government that routinely tortures and murders captives. I think it is time to pull out. If the Afghan people like the Karzai regime they will fight for it, if they don't want to fight for it, why should we?
  61. S Lucht from Canada writes: More things Ottawa doesn't want us to know--what exactly does Ottawa want us to know?
  62. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: OK Mary O'Hara, you seem like a betting woman. How about we bet that for every 'terrorist' handed over by Canadians who are head-chopped that Canada and O'Connor will only let three detainees through his 'revolving door' and only allow one Afghani to be tortured and killed. Your move, Mary.
  63. James Clost from chaozhou, guangdong, China writes: some posters here refer to canada ignoring the geneva convention when capturing, handling and turning over taliban prisoners (pamphleteer at 1:30 AM). the Third Geneva Convention outlines who is covered by these provisions and who isnt.

    While Taliban fighters had an initial claim to protection as POWs under the conventions (since Afghanistan signed the treaties in the first place), they lost that POW status by failing to obey the standards of conduct for legal combatants: wearing uniforms, a responsible command structure, and obeying the laws of war.

    The reasons to deny Geneva status to the Taliban extend beyond pure legal obligation. The primary enforcer of the laws of war has been RECIPROCAL TREATMENT: We obey the Geneva Conventions because our opponent does the same.

    Someone in a previous forum noted, 'how do we know the taliban would torture canadian POWs? the Taliban havent captured any Canadians yet.' exactly. However, in the way the taliban conduct their operations (which in some cases go against the laws and customs of war) they've killed canadians.

    This is not an excuse to permit torture, however i think it has to be noted that the Taliban are not entitled to any rights under the Geneva Convention. They dont play by the rules.

    At any rate, while I support this effort in Afghanistan, the government should just take a time out here and stop handing prisoners over until we get an iron clad guarantee that no torture will be conducted. Put this fire out and lets get a fresh start.
  64. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: I. Rivera,
    the prisoners are getting far better treatment than they deserve. Thankfully there are people out there who are willing to get their hands dirty. I know deep down you, Mrs Whiggens, and the others realize this is a necessary tool we must use. So it's OK if you come post on these boards and say things good Liberals and Dippers are supposed to say.
  65. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: OK, Harper will backtrack on this policy of turning prisoners over to Afghani government if he gets commitment from other NATO members to build a or take over an existing prison in Afghanistan to be run by joint NATO forces.
  66. Dik Coates from Canada writes: For a fairly current update on Afghanistan try reviewing informatin on the Senlis Council website...

    http://www.conseildesenlis.net/
  67. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: This isn't liberal propaganda by the G&M. Its beyond me how everyone wants accoutibility yet some when are willing, or worse, wanting to be left in the dark by our governments! What is wrong with telling people the truth? Who in their right minds has a problem with this? These people who say, old news, move on, etc.. what the hell are you talking about? Do you want transparancy or not?
  68. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: Billy Bob,
    I agree 100% If people don't want us to hand over prisoners, stop taking prisoners. Deal with them quickly and quietly.
  69. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Jim Shepard, I care nothing about your or your peruvian wife's fecundity. I was engaging you on your IMO unwholesome opinions in Canadian politics. If torture is a way of life in Peru, and you happen to be on the right side, bally hoo i say! good luck to you.
    Keep out of Canadian politics and Canadian society; it's moving way beyond what Peru is currently fighting with. But then, you must be one of the uber-Peruvians so your life is good.
    Canadians think ALL life is good. That's why we are in places fighting for a life that you cannot envision. Jim, to use that old canard: You're with us or against us. Be Canadian, or stay in Peru and fight your own battles with such vigour. Peace. Out.
  70. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: jeff mactavish from Canada writes: 'the prisoners are getting far better treatment than they deserve.' How do you know that? that's the whole point of due process--people should only get what they deserve. Without due process, we can never know. Justice is based on this concept. You say 'this is a necessary tool we must use.' Like in Abu Ghraib? Do you know that Abu Ghraib is a rallying cry for Al Qaeda and our enemies. Once we speak hypocritically, we lose the ability to speak at all. Abu Ghraib clearly did more harm to the US forces than good. Why in the world would you or anyone talk about torture as a 'necessary tool' when our whole mandate is to bring liberal democratic values to Afghanistan. the truth is: hypocripsy is a tool for the enemy, and a handicap for us. But it's a moot point (so why do I bother explaining it to you, I guess...) because anyone in the government knows that we can't be complicit in torture. So stop talking as if this were the issue. The government has to address the problem, but believe you and me, they won't come out tomorrow and say anything so stupid as, 'well, this is a necessary evil...' They might deny it, but they won't sanction it. Why? The dictates of ommon sense (see above).
  71. dave beldam from toronto, Canada writes: I don't get it...we're simply handing over their fugitives so they can serve justice the Afghan way, regardless of how it is served, these people are NOT Canadians! The Harper Tories are merely obeying the laws Afghanistan!
    To every immigrant from this area of the world... be thankful we built a civilized culture based on equality of rights and a democracy... where we don't have to live in mud huts in fear for our lives... Its pathetic however that our society is so damn politically correct that we would scorn those (our soldiers and government) who are trying to bring peace.
  72. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: James Clost, Gordon O'Connor stood up in the HoC and stated that though detainees are not officially covered under the Geneva Conventions as bona fide Prisoners of War, Canada would be treating them as such. Check it out. Hansard, around September 2006 as I recall.
    Farmers, tailors, and Taliban insurgents would be treated as POWs according to Canada via Gordon O'Connor.
    Yeah, that worked out well.
  73. Peter Cromerovich from Erehwon, Canada writes: James Clost: Regarding your comment 'Taliban are not entitled to any rights under the Geneva Convention'. Aside from any ethical considerations the obvious flaw in this is how do you tell if the person is actually Taliban when they look the same as any other Afghan? Torture may get a confession but it won't necessarily have any relation to the truth. Finally, what about those who are forced to join the Taliban under threat of having their families killed? Bit of a grey area that and it doesn't do much for hearts and minds.
  74. mogens bay from Canada writes: Will Globe and Mail please deliver whatever pieces of paper they may have obtained illigially? to the right authoraties. The person signing this deleivery
    Mr JC, ex lib leader should be war crime investigated? then the 3 opposition parties should call for a non confidence motion. This not a US operation.
    So we should back out on all the liberals commitments?
  75. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: What happend to all lefties on this tread??? Are they trying to recover from the shock of a collision with reality??
  76. The Phantom from Canada writes: So, Jo Ingblat, it seems none the elusive 'smart right wingers' have showed up yet? They're still all 'let just shoot them' and 'who cares' and 'the globe and mail is just lying cause they're not real men like us bootlicking neocon redneck nitwits blah blah blah bla.....I'm telling you Jo they just don't exist.
  77. Duncan Munro from Langley BC, Canada writes: Interesting. I have no doubt that Day, Harper, O'Conner and Hillier are up to their necks in this clearly criminal activity, but what about Martin and Pratt when they ran the show in Afghanistan? They must also have known about this...Liberals and Conservatives...Tweedledee and Tweedledum, both claim to hear no evil, and see no evil, except in each other.

    Anyone who opposes this criminal war and wants Canada's war criminals, Day, Harper, O'Conner, Hillier, Martin and Pratt brought to justice, should be supporting the NDP, otherwise the Liberal-Conservative charade will continue indefinitely.
  78. Vasili Yeremenko from Canada writes: mogen's bay that is so typical. The conservatives are responsible for nothing all bad things can be blamed on the Liberals. Your beloved clown of a minister went over there to investigate and take controlm he is responsible.
  79. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: jeff mactavish: The Loonies would have us jail 2,500 Canadian combat troops, along with 40 Taliban types, presumably in the same jail.

    Hopefully there would be a plentiful supply of soap for the Taliban types to slip on, since it would be a miracle if they were still all alive in the morning.

    I am not so worried about our Canadian troops (we are pretty good at taking care of ourselves), as the people that finance the Taliban, including many nut-case North Americans. Best Regards.
  80. R C from Canada writes: Why would people even comment on shooting prisoners? Even in jest it's hard to tell sarcasm on a message board. It doesn't matter if Canadian soldiers capture pro/non/undecided-taliban, we then have an obligation to ensure they are not tortured and get a fair trial. Even if they fall through the grey areas of the Geneva convention, they are covered by the UN convention. In Ottawa there is a Peace Keepers Memorial; let's take it down if it's a forgotten piece of our history.
  81. James Clost from chaozhou, guangdong, China writes: ' Peter Cromerovich from Erehwon, Canada writes: Finally, what about those who are forced to join the Taliban under threat of having their families killed?'

    On the surface, I think it wouldn't matter WHY you joined the Taliban. Do convicted criminals in Canada get lesser sentences because their lawyers manage to convince a jury they were coerced into breaking the law? I dont think so.

    'Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: James Clost, Gordon O'Connor stood up in the HoC and stated that though detainees are not officially covered under the Geneva Conventions as bona fide Prisoners of War, Canada would be treating them as such.'

    Yes, he did. And we're doing what we promised. The only flaw is the Detainee Handover Agreement. The current government of Canada should order a cessation of handing over of prisoners right now, and rectify the agreement that was signed under a previous Liberal government. It doesnt seem like a difficult thing to do, so I'm not sure why they arent doing it.
  82. The Phantom from Canada writes: KKK Karol KarolaK, why am am I not surprised that you don't care too much about the human rights of people who aren't white.
  83. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: I agree, this is certainly pointing towards criminal behavior on the part of our leaders. And really, so much for the right to information when your government blacks out the most pertenant details. This governemnt is doing what it wants, regardless of what the people want. This governement is slowly, but surely transforming our democracy into a dictatorship by refusing to uphold our democratic values.
  84. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: OK lefties have a field night on these newest revelations, I have to get some rest, have a good night.
  85. Brad Reddekopp from Hazelton, Canada writes: They're just doing what governments do. All long as people tolerate being governed, this is what can be expected -- and it scarcely matters whether the government is democratic or not
  86. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: The Phantom from Canada writes: KKK Karol KarolaK, why am am I not surprised that you don't care too much about the human rights of people who aren't white.
    Posted 25/04/07 at 3:22 AM EDT

    The Phantom, nice try, kill the messenger, call him a racist, what else is new???
  87. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Duncan Monro: 'Censored documents show government was told Afghan detainees faced 'extrajudicial executions, disappearances, torture and detention without trial'.

    Excuse me, but censored documents by definition show nothing.

    Considering that many of the detainees were actually Pakistanis, perhaps they should be returned to their native land, where I am certain that they would be treated with the utmost courtesy. Best Regards.
  88. James Clost from chaozhou, guangdong, China writes: 'Duncan Munro from Langley BC, Canada writes: Anyone who opposes this criminal war and wants Canada's war criminals, Day, Harper, O'Conner, Hillier, Martin and Pratt brought to justice, should be supporting the NDP, otherwise the Liberal-Conservative charade will continue indefinitely.'

    duncan, i notice you're a strong NDP supporter. However, the MPs of your party just finished casting one of the most illogical votes in recent history. The NDP favour an immediate withdrawal of Canadian troops, but since they couldnt get that on the table, they voted instead for an indefinite stay. ???????? If they really opposed this war, why vote to stay? Doesnt sound like a political party that really knows what its doing.
  89. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: Karol Karolak

    I know why The Phantom thinks like he does. I've had a few conversations with you and to be honest, you really are not a very compansionate person. However Karol, I don't hold that against you, as people naturally tend to have varying degrees of tolerance. I'm quite happy to discuss issues with you knowing that you have no real political leverage, same as me. And that makes us equal.
  90. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: Karol,
    when all else fails, play the role of victim and blame the white man for your poor lot in life.
  91. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: James Clost, apparently O'Connor and Harper have signed a NEW agreement since. Nothing important enough that Canadians should be apprised of however. And apparently that agreement leaves much to be desired. For example, Canadian oversight of detainees handed over.
    The new and improved anti-Liberal agreement is LESS effective. Hence we have farmers and tailors and suspected Taliban handed over to torture or release, depending on the 'bribes by tribes' and the 'revolving door' O'Connor talked about on QP, or farmers, tailors and Taliban tortured under the auspice of a wimpy Canadian-IHR whatever of Afghanistan agreement that O'Connor and Harper are content to defer responsibility to. While the actual Independent Human Rights of Afghanistan people are barred from actually visiting prisons or prisoners.
    Yeah, and now our own Canadian Stockwell Day is sizing up land and lobbying for money to build prisons in Canada to house people of uncertain criminality. This is certainly shaping up well as an image of Canada.
    That reminds me, has O'Connor ever found those four detainees? He said in public that they would be found. 'Anyone can be found.' he said. Where are those first 'lost' detainees, Mr. O'Connor?
  92. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: James Clost from chaozhou

    As much as I disagree with most of your posts, I have to agree with you about this one on the NDP. Their stance was completely illogical and showed without a doubt the worst of the worst when it comes to election politiking over values.
  93. Alex MacLean from Toronto, Canada writes: Those who question a government that is waging war routinely have their patriotism questioned. Every time. This is an age old dirty game perfected by Hermann Goring: a citizen has the temerity to suggest that perhaps the government ought to ensure the military conduct itself legally and upfront and - dare I say - humanely, you will be accused of sleeping with, aiding and abetting, funding, pampering, comforting, arming, sharing intel with - The Enemy. It is really rather laughable how predictable this is, and how willing are some silly and gullible tools to line up to be queasy-making apologists for the government of the day, all so they can feel more patriotic as a result. I really have to wonder what the real source of their insecurity is, that any discussion (in a democracy, damn it!) must be baited with this poisonous charge. Perhaps you might all identify a police state to which you would like to be shipped, since you drool over the idea of totalitarian militarism. I'm sure North Korea would welcome your kind with open arms.
  94. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: The only reason I can think that the NDP voted to allow Harper an open-ended mission is, the NDP must think that the Liberals will be in power before Feb 2009, and then they can ask the Liberals to support the February 2009 mandate.
    Any other scenario is too bizarre to contemplate.
  95. Duncan Munro from Langley BC, Canada writes: I'll paraphrase Spicydoc:

    Harper: We intend to beat the neighbors dog until feb 2009 and maybe longer.

    Dion: We don't think beating the neighbors dog is good policy but we'll support it until Feb 2009, but no longer.

    Layton: We won't support cruelty to animals for even a single day, we want the beating to stop now, and will certainly not agree to let it continue till Feb 2009.

    The NDP opposes this clearly criminal war, and will not agree to extend it. The NDP voted against the previous Tory motion to extend the war (as did Dion, who has now reversed his position) and voted against this extension as well. The NDP is being consistent, unlike the Liberals who want to play politics, but clearly favour the mission. The NDP moved to amend the Liberal motion, to call for an immediate pullout, but the Liberals defeated the amendment, otherwise the government would have been compelled to withdraw or call an election, but the Liberals didn't have the guts to go that far.
  96. Randall Toews from Canada writes: First O'Connor states that he is being briefed by the Red Cross regarding the treatment of Afghan prisoners and is forced to retract his statement and apologize in the House when the Red Cross declares that to be completely untrue, then he and Harper repeatedly deny the existence of any Canadian reports detailing the abuse of Afghan prisoners, and finally, when (lo and behold!) exactly such a report sufaces, half of it is blacked out to hide the findings of torture and human rights abuses.

    Regardless of your opinion regarding the policy of handing over captives, surely the government's secretive and deceitful handling of the issue must be condemned.
  97. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: Mrs. Whiggins from Canada

    When you consider that as bad as it was, we officially committed ourselves until 2009, and to demand the withdrawal today, would break that commitement.. add that on to the illogical stance of, if not now then who cares.... and it is totally bizarre!
  98. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: jeff mactavish. you're seriously NOT thinking. Let's for a second say that I don't care about any of the prisoners, in Abu Ghraib or in Afghanistan. The point is that Agu Ghraib served to undermine the US and the Bush doctrine, and the so-called 'war on terror.' Why is it you can't admit that? It shold be a no-brainer that accounts of torture (true or not) undermine our mission in Afghanistan or Iraq or wherever. It doesn't matter what I think about Canada in Afghanistan or of Bush or Harper or Iraq or whatever. Whether you're on the right or left: torture is bad for business!!!! Now, if you want to argue that torture is a tool--even after the fact that it undermines our mission etc.--well, even then it's not really. Ask John McCain, noted hawk and no wimp when it comes to foriegn policy: torture doesn't actually work, and he should know because HE WAS TORTURED! It's not a reliable tool, in the very least. So if it undermines the mission, AND it isn't a useful tool (or at least disputable tool) then what's you POINT? Revenge? That might seem like fun, but kind of pointless, it doesn't serve any interest. Keep thinking, though, it'll come to you eventually.
  99. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Can someone please translate Mrs. Whiggins posts into English?

    She/he/it seems to be trying to explain something, but I have no idea what it could be. Best Regards.
  100. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Yeah well, the NDP are standing by with their vote, and watching a dog being beaten, righteously so for their part, and have sold their souls until at least 2009 and beyond. Good dog.
  101. James Clost from chaozhou, guangdong, China writes: ' Reg Anderson from Canada writes: James Clost from chaozhou

    As much as I disagree with most of your posts, I have to agree with you about this one on the NDP. Their stance was completely illogical and showed without a doubt the worst of the worst when it comes to election politiking over values.'

    and reg, this is precisely why people so many dont turn out to vote at election time.
  102. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: Jim Shepherd from Lima

    I have no problem understanding Mrs. Whiggins posts. They seem logical and quite well written.
  103. Randall Toews from Canada writes: Isn't it clear that the reason the NDP voted against the motion is because it means they would be endorsing the continuation of the current mission until 2009, when their position is that the combat element of the mission should be terminated immediately?

    I don't support the NDP position, but given their position the way they voted does seem logical enough to me.
  104. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: James Clost from chaozhou

    Yes, we all need to stop the partisan hackery and get serious with demanding accoutibility and transparancy regardless of the political party in power. I'd go along with a new investigation of adscam and I'd also go along with a demand for less, blacked-out freedom of information documents, to the public. It really truly is up to us.
  105. Duncan Munro from Langley BC, Canada writes: There are many allegations of criminal activity, coming to light, regarding the treatment of prisoners in Afghanistan, and yet people are being critical of the NDP for voting against extending the mission to Feb 2009! Why not end it now? I have no doubt that this issue will come before the house again and the NDP position will carry the day, because this war is being increasingly indefensible, even by Harper.
  106. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: Jo Ingblat,
    Liberals like yourself used Abu Ghraib to undermine Bush and the US for political reasons. It had nothing to do with the treatment of prisoners, otherwise you would still be complaining about what's going on in the prison still today.
  107. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: Randall Toews from Canada

    It could be taken that way but thats simply not the reality. We officially signed on until 2009. thats the reality. Responsible governemnt requires the NDP to acknwolege the coutries past commitments. I hate this neo-con agenda driven war in Afghansistan worse than anyone.
  108. Randall Toews from Canada writes: Jeff, you mean to say that Bush and the US undermined their credibility and supposed moral superiority through their despicacble actions at Abu Graib, right? I thought so, because that statement actually makes sense, as opposed to your Anne Coulter-like 'liberals are worse than the terrorists' nonsense.
  109. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: Duncan,
    we better get out now before too many Afghan women get an education and think they actually should have the same rights as Afghan men. Get them covered up and locked back up in their homes before its too late.
  110. The Phantom from Canada writes: Harper and his gang of jackbootlicking sycophants = more war, more torture and more gutting Canada and dividing it amongst the rich.
    Dion and the 'we only like half of the treasonous policies of the conservatives' liberals = more (but not as much more) war, torture, and stealing from the poor.
    Layton and the 'We should return Canada to its traditional role as a peace keeping country' = An end to this embarrassing and illegal debacle.
    Vote NDP and BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW.
  111. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: jeff mactavish from Canada

    Beleive me, no-one has forgotten the torture and human rights violations that went on in Abu Gahrib. Your just kidding yourself if you think so.
  112. Joe Flow from Canada writes: Harper literally seems to be imploding upon himself over the last few weeks. Having and defending a policy about allowing torture is bad enough, but to lie about it in such a bald-faced manner to the Canadian public is going to cost him more than a few brownie points come election time. >> Steve can argue the merits or lack thereof, to Canadians, regarding our presence in Afghanistan, but only the lunatic fringe among us will agree with the policy of Canada willingly handing over prisoners to known torturers. > Sure, in the past we have witnessed indisgressions by our military during foreign invasions etc. (eg Matchee), but nothing that could be tracked too high up even the military chain of command. This is truly a precedent....our GOVERNMENT is condoning and actually facillitating the practice of torture. In doing so, Harper has lowered us to the moral level of the worst of the 'insurgents' that has ever engaged in a beheading or planted a bomb. > This is a HUGE black-eye for Canada in the international community, and one that will be very difficult to come back from. It makes any overture we make to other countries regarding their human rights practices completely hollow and hypocritical. Not only has this debacle cost us our reputation in the international community, but it has also impacted negatively upon our ability to intervene usefully to aid others who are in need of our help. > This is an indefensible act by Harper and company, and any who come on here to defend this behavior are truly among the radicals and lunatics on the fringes of any society.
  113. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: Reg,
    there are far worse abuses going on in Abu Gahib since the US handed over control of the prison. How come you haven't spoken up about that?
  114. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: The Phantom,
    Support the Taliban, VOTE NDP!
  115. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: The phantom,
    Support the Taliban, VOTE NDP!
  116. Jim Shepherd from Lima, Peru writes: Reg Anderson: Sorry, must be a full moon in Toronto.

    I can't see the the North Star from here, but have to point at the ground instead.

    At least I know where North is, and always point in that direction.

    Perhaps you would like to meet some real terrorists, since I deal with them often, and I can guarantee your security, as long as you do not open your mouth.

    As for Mrs Whiggins, I have seen simlar types on the old NYT web pages, and am not certain who is paying for this nonsence. Best Regards.
  117. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: jeff mactavish from Canada

    Make it my job like your beloved Mr. Mackay ( the left-out child ), and I will.
  118. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: jeff mactavish says without thinking, 'Liberals like yourself used Abu Ghraib to undermine Bush and the US for political reasons. It had nothing to do with the treatment of prisoners, otherwise you would still be complaining about what's going on in the prison still today. ' A) I'm not a liberal B) Maybe liberals did use Agu Ghraib to undermine Bush--BUT SO DID AL QAEDA and IRAQI INSURGENTS! That's my point! Actually, Abu Ghraib undermined Bush and there's no two ways about it. Don't kid yourself: Rumsfield and all the NEoCons really regret Agu Ghraib happened. Again: Why do you deny the obvious??? C) Do I care about the prisoners in Abu Ghraib or Afghanistan? It doesn't matter, does it? Because I'm talking about policy. But, yes, I do believe that fundamental human rights are important. As for for what's going on now in Abu Ghraib? OF COURSE this too would undermine Bush. It undermines the whole mission. (You know, the whole democracy, freedom etc. thing) It's not about who does the torturing, it's about the fact torturing goes on at all. That's what we're discussing here. I don't think Bush would be too happy if it got out that Iraqi government was commiting torture, considering how democratic they're supposed to be. (Does it register, now? Just think it over...It'll hurt a bit, but it'll be good for you)
  119. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: jeff mactavish says without thinking, 'Liberals like yourself used Abu Ghraib to undermine Bush and the US for political reasons. It had nothing to do with the treatment of prisoners, otherwise you would still be complaining about what's going on in the prison still today. ' A) I'm not a liberal B) Maybe liberals did use Agu Ghraib to undermine Bush--BUT SO DID AL QAEDA and IRAQI INSURGENTS! That's my point! Actually, Abu Ghraib undermined Bush and there's no two ways about it. Don't kid yourself: Rumsfield and all the NEoCons really regret Agu Ghraib happened. Again: Why do you deny the obvious??? C) Do I care about the prisoners in Abu Ghraib or Afghanistan? It doesn't matter, does it? Because I'm talking about policy. But, yes, I do believe that fundamental human rights are important. As for for what's going on now in Abu Ghraib? OF COURSE this too would undermine Bush. It undermines the whole mission. (You know, the whole democracy, freedom etc. thing) It's not about who does the torturing, it's about the fact torturing goes on at all. That's what we're discussing here. I don't think Bush would be too happy if it got out that Iraqi government was commiting torture, considering how democratic they're supposed to be. (Does it register, now? Just think it over...It'll hurt a bit, but it'll be good for you)
  120. The Phantom from Canada writes: Support Human rights and international Law. Condemn in the strongest possible terms Torture, Aggression, Extrajudicial Killings and Terrorism.
  121. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: Jim Sheppard,
    people like mrs whiggens are only here to try and score political points against the conservatives. God help us if there are actually people out there who believe some of the things she is saying. The fact is the majority of Canadians don't like what is going on with the torturing of prisoners, but we also realize it is necessary and we are safer because of it.
  122. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: Jim Shepherd from Lima

    I'm not sure if I got that last post out but here it is again.

    Yes, I was in Tucson AZ a couple of years ago and the night skyline was completely different than anything I had seen. It gave me some great insight into our personal visions of our basis of knowledge.

    So now with regards to your statement...

    'Perhaps you would like to meet some real terrorists, since I deal with them often, and I can guarantee your security, as long as you do not open your mouth.'

    ... I feel I have to tell you that the only reason that you would ever say something like that, is because your personal visions of your basis of knowledge, have not been expanded past that of a child's.

    Now having said that, I will tell you that there is no need to disagree when what your really want, is for someone to agree with you. And if that doesn't work for you, then you can always fall back on the axiom:

    Freedom has nothing to fear from the truth.
  123. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Don't kid yourself Jeff, I mean every word I say. There will not be any politics, any discussion, if people like yourself have your way.
    Canadians are (were) safer because we don't abuse people, torture people, or shove ideas of God down choking throats.
    Canada lost a lot today. The NDP vote and the Conservative drive against any religion but their own. The Cons are hiding behind their religion to mask their lust for power and lucre. It's in the Bible. Read it and weep.
    'The fact is the majority of Canadians don't like what is going on with the torturing of prisoners, but we also realize it is necessary and we are safer because of it.'
    Tell me where any of Canada's governments espoused this attitude. A simple quote will do. Anything really from the Canadian government to hold up your view will do.
  124. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: Mrs Whiggens,
    come on, nobody believes you for one minute. Your only here to disagree with everything Harper does. If Harper said he was stopping the hand over of prisoners, you would be the first here demanding he turn them over. No Canadian gov't will say they condone torture of prisoners. I said Canadians are willing to tolerate it for the greater good.
  125. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: jeff mactavish from Canada writes:

    'Mrs Whiggens,
    come on, nobody believes you for one minute. Your only here to disagree with everything Harper does. If Harper said he was stopping the hand over of prisoners, you would be the first here demanding he turn them over. No Canadian gov't will say they condone torture of prisoners. I said Canadians are willing to tolerate it for the greater good.'

    The problem is Jeff, that your greater good has been comming to you from the television set for 50 years. You have to clue in to the fact that reality never was like that! Its called waking-up.
  126. Vern McPherson from Toronto, Canada writes: Well this is the smoking gun for O'Connor isn't it. And unless it can be proven he has lied to his boss harper it's the smoking gun for stevie too. Both have stood up in Parliament and sid one thing while knowing quite the opposite is true. Really folks I am rather shocked at this. Lying to parliament like this and to the Canadian people is not a good sign. I'd be looking for O'Connor, MacKay and Hillier's butt on this. Harper is no better since we all know nothing goes on in that 'new' government without his finger on it.

    This is not a good day for Canada and Canada's reputation. We are all ashamed of this behavior - or we should be.

    I can't wait for question period today. Will stevie stand up and deny knowing this report existed ? How will the lying COns spin this stuff to the Canadian people ?
  127. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Jeff, that's so lame. If Harper said he'd stop handing detainees (tailors, farmers etc.) over for torture I'd praise him from the rooftops. Sadly, that won't happen. Why? Because people like you and apparently people from Peru and elsewhere run Harper and it isn't at all about Canadians.
    Come on now, give over!
    You said: 'The fact is the majority of Canadians don't like what is going on with the torturing of prisoners, but we also realize it is necessary and we are safer because of it.'
    Now prove it.
  128. Vern McPherson from Toronto, Canada writes: How does the accountibility guy operate ? By hiding facts form the Canadian people ? COns should be ashamed of themselves for supporting this kind of lying and subterfuge.
  129. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: The Phantom from Canada writes:

    'Whatever, just stop calling yourself a conservative and admit that what you really are is a fascist. Because the real conservatives killed fascists.'

    No the facists are people like Chaney, Bush, and I think Harper. The correct term for jeff mactavish would be neo-con sheep-dog. Why, you ask? Because they just goes around denying and critisizing ( barking ), to get the job done. But thats their sole function. They're not the gate-keepers ( facists ). They are the gate-keepers sheep-dogs.
  130. Shaky Lady from guelph, Canada writes: I am sick and tired of the globe trying to scrape up whatever garbage it can to harm the cpc. Is there any real news you can report on?
  131. A Canadian from Cole Harbour, Canada writes: What the afghan people do to their own people is their business. If this is such an issue. why isnt the UN blasting the afghan government about this. If the UN is blasting them, it certainly not front page news and nobody around the world seems to be having a problem with this. People should be more upset at the afghan governemnt for allowing this to happen.
  132. Sandal Wood from Yokohama, Japan writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: ... Please think before you write!

    Wow! What a concept! And not much in evidence for many of the posts I've seen on G
  133. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Sure Shaky Lady, on a good note it seems that Harper will be patting children's heads from out of nose-pulling range in Pothole BC in the company of Gordon Campbell who will be sucking up some tequila on the side, but not driving.
    Also, John Baird leaked that the conservative government really doesn't have an environmental plan. Let's hope that you personally are shakey enough to not care in about 20 years. Have a nice day.
  134. Har Har from Canada writes: Expect the Globe and Mail to now be raided by the RCMP. They will surely want to know how the Globe received uncensored copies of these documents.

    Maybe reporters will be sent to Afghanstan and interrogated there by security forces who never torture people.
  135. The Phantom from Canada writes: BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW.
  136. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: The Phantom from Canada

    Check it out my friend.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBHbeVVpOrY

    Let the comercialism bits at the beginning and the end, slide.

    I believe that the world is a conservative system, with respect to energy. No energy leaves and no energy come in. It merely changes forms. Einstien showed that physical energy can be measured i.e. E=MC2. I believe that, just because mental energy ( intuition, positive attitudes, attraction ) .. etc can not be measured, doesn't mean it they don't exist. And this video has a very interesting take on it.
  137. Vern McPherson from Toronto, Canada writes: Shaky Lady from guelph, Canada writes: I am sick and tired of the globe trying to scrape up whatever garbage it can to harm the cpc. Is there any real news you can report on?

    -------------

    What news do you want ? How about what's on sale at Shoppers Drug cosmetic department ? Why don't you just shut up, quit that COns war room and go home ?
  138. Vern McPherson from Toronto, Canada writes: Har Har from Canada writes: Expect the Globe and Mail to now be raided by the RCMP. They will surely want to know how the Globe received uncensored copies of these documents.

    Maybe reporters will be sent to Afghanstan and interrogated there by security forces who never torture people.

    -----------------------

    You know what har, knowing these COns are so much like their trainers, the Yankee neocons, that wouldn't surprise me one bit !!!
  139. Har Har from Canada writes: The reporter for the Ottawa Citizen who obtained leaked national security documents relating to Maher Arar had her apartment raided by the RCMP.
  140. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Don't kid yourself! There is nothing a Con won't do for power. Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Phaahhhh, dat's nothing dat! Easy to get around. Especially if I have a majority! Look, already the people's MP's are muzzled, only allowed to say what I tell them! Nothing from the constituents I don't like. It's good! Who needs people buzzing in the ear of my minions who then come and try to talk in my ear? Pah! I need nothing of the people. I have power. People are to obey. I'm like Taliban, only people vote for me. Or else. Ha ha ha ha ha

    *Third act where Mrs. Whiggens tries to hide her G&M clippings, Freak Bros comics, and a Inuit carved pipe, never used...

    With the Harper Cons and crew in charge one can't be too careful. Who knows, I might get handed over to Saskatchewan authorities O,O
  141. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: Mrs. Whiggins from Canada

    Saskatchewan authorities ... too funny! You got that right. Born and raised there. I wonder if it the boring landspace is responsible?
  142. D C from Canada writes: Keep at it GLobe...keep at undermining Canada, it's military and it's reconstruction teams in Afghanistan ....with any luck we can let them get back to their isolated 11th century behaviours.... all I would ask is that you support putting a firewall around them so no one gets out . we don;t need them here.

    If we turn over to your main competition in fact we can examine why multi culturalism failed in tis land... a 'feel goodie' Trudeau thing it has allowed the butchers and terrorists of the world to bring their racial prejudices here..and surprise surprise. their's are worse than ours ! IN Rwanda they actually killed people because they were same colour-different tribe !!!

    There was a float to the Sikh guy in the parade this weekend..the guy that is believed to have put the bomb on Air India ..remember him ?

    So yeah Globe. You GO girl... tell us about the looming war in Canada and why we'll need our troops here, where multicult runs amok.
  143. Reg Anderson from Canada writes: Actually that would be, I wonder if it is the boring landspace that is responsible (for their behavior)?

    Okay.. time for bed now...
  144. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Reg, I know the place. Family borned there eh. If I'm going to be renditioned to somewhere that's nowhere really, I'll take Saskabush. It has its charms. I almost got electrocuted on a dock once, silly me. Long dock, big lake :) Never a dull moment, though it sure is flat mostly iff'n your driving...
  145. wayne ouellette from Canada writes: This is shocking. A lawless society with torture. How dare they mistreat those Taliban. I say send Celine over and let him give the boys a big hug. Perhaps they would change their name to 'Koyoto'. Sorry, I have a hard time finding compassion for this lot. The Globe keeps stirring the pot with old news. The Press does not control the country any longer. Maybe its time for some new faces and ideas!
  146. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: DC From Canada: It was Conservatives, and BC Liberals which are Conservatives in sheep's clothing who attended, plus an unfortunate NDP. Get your facts straight. If you can't get it straight from reading the G&M, read something else. There's no excuse for not researching your stuff.
  147. a l from Toronto, Canada writes: Bush and Rumsfeld, lite.
  148. jim reed from stratford, Canada writes: Interesting isn't it, that the United States Congress can set a deadline of October First to begin getting their troops out of Iraq, while in Canada, we are not even having an informed debate.

    Our government including the Prime Minister lied to Canadians. It's as if George W. Bush's alter ego is leading us.

    The entire Afghan mission appears to be constructed on a combination of ill-conceived strategy, incompetent leadership, lack of rational planning and lies...going back to the previous Liberal government and now being compounded by the minority Conservative government.

    What we need urgently now, is not just a review of the nature of this Afghan project...but an intelligent and informed public debate on just what our purpose is in being there at all.

    The tenor of postings on this site is a very sad commentary on the present level of discussion. Why not try to eliminate the catcalling; let's get down to some serious discussion about whether we are involved in something that is going to seriously impair our moral standing in the world...or whether this mission is based on sound principles.

    So far, neither proponents nor opponents seem to be willing to do that.
  149. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Doesn't the fake name Wayne Ouelette sound kinda candy to the average Canadian reader? I find his feminizing of the leader of the opposition quite telling re: Wayne's sexuality. To be more precise, regarding Wayne's comfort level with his own sex. You go for it Wayne! Go girl! Change the face of Canada. Will you be using your face, or one of the many faces of Harper? It's your movie, I'm just asking. :)
  150. wayne ouellette from Canada writes: Unlike you I use my real name. Somehow I feel your comments reveal more about you, Mrs Whiggins!
  151. J G from Whitby, Canada writes: To Jo Ingblat I applaude your comments above. I do not know why anyone is faulting the G & M. I say 'thank you'.

    Prisoners are not only tortured, some can not even be found. Are these prisoners not innocent until proven guilty? Do we have to sink to a level of barbarism? The denial of Harper and the far right is so similar to Bush and his cronies. Will we fabricate a Jessica Lynch rescue next or lie about friendly fire killing a soldier like Pat Tillman? Sadly the NDP voted with the Conservatives yesterday saying we want troops out now which they know can not happen. Having them leave in 21 months allowing other NATO forces to do their work was a start. The NDP appears to be very opportunistic and lacks sincerity. A sad day for Canada as our values keep sinking and morals hit a new low.

    NO ONE DIED IN ADSCAM
  152. Giorgius Negrasilva from Canada writes: The Canadian public has been blatantly, completely and utterly lied to and betrayed by the Stephen Harper government; the enormity of the scope of the betrayal is undeniable, incredible and shows utter and complete contempt for the conservative voters who supported them in the last election. I will no longer support a government that sees fit to flout the Geneva Convention, the standard of moral and ethical behavior that distinguishes us from the war criminals and terrorists that have caused such great pain and suffering throughout history. OUR CHILDREN, FATHERS, GRANDFATHERS AND GREAT-GRANDFTHERS DID NOT DIE TO SEE A CANADIAN GOVERNMENT FLOUT THE VERY PRINCIPLES THAT DISTINGUISH US FROM THE ENEMY. I believe that the one essential quality to which all voters are absolutely entitled is to have honest representation and disclosure in Ottawa, but this is blatantly not the case in this instance. I was sick of the Liberals and their lying, deceit and arrogance, but the current government has fundamentally and utterly betrayed all Canadians in the current instance about what they really knew and what they purported to know and have stated over the last several months; they have LIED, LIED AND LIED AGAIN, and I am sickened to my stomach. I feel utterly betrayed; they have completely lost my condifidence. They are not fit to govern. In God's name, is there not a conservative (or even liberal) politician in Canada who can lead with honesty and integrity?.
  153. Vern McPherson from Toronto, Canada writes: D C from Canada writes: Keep at it GLobe...keep at undermining Canada, it's military and it's reconstruction teams in Afghanistan ....with any luck we can let them get back to their isolated 11th century behaviours.... all I would ask is that you support putting a firewall around them so no one gets out . we don;t need them here. If we turn over to your main competition in fact we can examine why multi culturalism failed in tis land... a 'feel goodie' Trudeau thing it has allowed the butchers and terrorists of the world to bring their racial prejudices here..and surprise surprise. their's are worse than ours ! IN Rwanda they actually killed people because they were same colour-different tribe !!!There was a float to the Sikh guy in the parade this weekend..the guy that is believed to have put the bomb on Air India ..remember him ?So yeah Globe. You GO girl... tell us about the looming war in Canada and why we'll need our troops here, where multicult runs amok. ---------------------------- Folks you just have to read this one again ROTFLMAO. There is butchery going on in Canada and a looming war. The COns were in that parade. Who was in charge of security - Doris the water cat ?? It'sssssssssss trudeauuuuuuuuu trudeauuuuuuuuuuuu LOL !!! Does all this sound like a crazy disaffected COns wanting to fix all that is not broken? Is Yonge Street going to be re-named in the new revolution. Let's call it Harper'z Way LOL !!! Timmies will become Jason's after the take over !! Holy masked inrtruder batman !!! Read it and weep knowing this character and his ilk are out there voting.
  154. Vern McPherson from Toronto, Canada writes: While we area at it why couldn't the Chief Of Defense Staff General Hillier not make to Gagetown today for the memorial for the fallen soldiers ? He sent someone else instead.

    What is more important today to the General than remembering and commemorating brave fallen Canadian soldiers ?
  155. Just Thinking from Edmonton, Canada writes: Ahhhhhhhh...the poor little terrorists are being mistreated. I suggest we bring a few of them here,and house them with the staff of the G&M. They can talk some 'sense' into them,but keep those steak knives out of sight,you hear.
  156. Rafeeq Keleft from Whalley, Canada writes: I belief Jack Layton of NDP will fix this mess. He also likes to bicycle with his wife and that is good.
  157. David M from St. John's, Canada writes: Maybe we should send over a couple hundred million of tax payers money to build a nice comfy prison complete with swimming pools and cable TV. Then after 6 months or so any Afghan POWs could be released to take up their cause and target more of our troops....would that be humane and civilized enough for everybody?
  158. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: jim reed, you might be mistaking some of the true canadians' whistling past the graveyard demeanor as a national theme. you would be mistaken. Canadians care deeply about human rights around the world. Canadians did not enter 'War' in Afghanistan: it was billed as aid, support and training for the Afghanis to learn to fend for themselves.
    Mistaken, perhaps, mispoken, most likely, missing leadership most definitely. It's not too late for Canada to partner a deal with the Afghan government, which is also in the process of brokering a deal with the Taliban. It's time for combatants and rescuers to talk.
    Layton bought this up two years ago and lived the derision, yet we learn that US has been negotiating. Such are allies who are liars. NATO itself is on its last leg if it will not be a world leader. If NATO bends to one country, it ceases to be NATO and will lose its standing in even the most utopian minds.
    Harper will not talk to lots of leaders, let alone the wouldbe or defacto rulers of Afghanistan. Harper is an elitist who has a small idea of the world and the people in it. Canada is under-represented in the world under the 'new government'TM and as such cannot reach out or counsel countries in crisis. Canada itself is in crisis.
    Where Canada used to be a beacon of self-determination, freedom and safety for people with goodness and lofty ideals foremost, that is being forsaken in our own land.
    Canada is under attack. From people on the inside. Harper would see Canada as part of a North American Union, and Harper isn't Canadian enough to ask or even pretend to ask if that is what Canada wants.
    Harper's Canada is not my Canada.
    If Harper gives any Canadian the choice remains to be seen.
    Sometimes Canada chooses and disregards the 'government' path.
    Oh Canada!
  159. Har Har from Canada writes: Rapists, murderers and thieves in Canada are not tortured. They are the same as 'detainees' we capture in other countries.

    Once detained they should have a trial and be punished according to sentences set out in the law of Afghanistan. If Afghanistan's law states that they should be executed in a humane and lawful way, so be it.

    But when they are tortured outside of the accountability and authorization of law and government, there is a problem. We don't torture murderers in Canada, even though sometimes we wish we could. That is a Canadian value.

    Maybe it is an 'immigrant value' that it is acceptable to torture people, and we should start deporting people who hold such values because they can't integrate to the Canadian value system.
  160. the douglas from erie shore, Canada writes: I am not an immigrant Har Har, yet I support our actions. Were it left to me, apprehended Taliban would be tried, found guilty, and executed. All within 20 minutes.
  161. John W. David from Canada writes: This only proves what was already clear to the rest of the world, that justice in the middle east is cruel and barbaric. So what's newsworthy here?
  162. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: So back in 2006, the libs support extending the mission and it is well known that their is torture, beatings and so on of prisoners. What kind of govt are propping up? No wonder, the NDP wouldn't support the liberals fake motion yesterday. Get the troops out now.
  163. Mrs. Whiggins from Canada writes: Pardon me please, Wayne Ouellette for thinking you were running under a fake name. I apologize.
    I still think you were denigrating women and gays. For that I will not apologize.
    I am sorry I thought your name was fake and pretend gay.
  164. R H from Canada writes: This is appalling.

    The Harper regime appears to have been caught deliberately blacking out documents once again. This time they are caught red handed editing out the 'bad stuff' while leaving in the 'good stuff'.

    This heavy editing is no being done in the interest of national security. It's being done in the self serving interests of a dictatorship regime, headed by Harper.

    Unbelievable. The selective editing of this document shows exactly how Harper and his goon squad are maneuvering to manipulate information.

    This is an outrage.

    It's a shamefull affront to international law and human diginity.

    The Harper government leaves an ugly stain on the reputation of Canada, Canadians, and our brave Canadian soldiers.

    I am disgusted.
  165. Har Har from Canada writes: Douglas: Our actions?

    What are our actions? The government denies the allegations that have been made. Do you support torturing people, even though Harper says that they are only allegations and rumours?

    What actions do you support? The action of not torturing people?

    The action of handing prisoners over to others and pretending we don't know what happens to them?

    I wholeheartedly support the war against the Taliban. But I don't support torture. The reason I support the war is because they torture people and we don't.

    The reason we have the moral right and obligation to fight and finish this war is because the Taliban tortures people, AND WE DO NOT!

    If in fact we have become the enemy in order to fight the enemy, my support for the war will no longer exist.
  166. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: janfromthebruce: The decision of the NDP to support the Conservatives yesterday, who would not agree with the date of Feb./2009 for troop withdrawal from Afghanistan, makes NO sense to me. The NDP are siding with the Conservatives who will not commit to the end date of the mission. What are the NDP thinking????
  167. J G from Whitby, Canada writes: Mrs. Whiggins well said and refreshing!!!!
  168. Har Har from Canada writes: Don Adams, we are fighting the Taliban because they are the kind of people who torture people.

    Torture is terrorism.

    Do you think because they behead people, we should start beheading people? Because they blow up children, we should start blowing up children?

    We are fighting them to stop this sort of thing, not perpetuate it.
  169. bill wilson from Taiwan writes: SHAME! Where is the Canada I used to know, gone south to join the Yankee neo-cons I guess.
  170. David Bakody from Dartmouth, writes: Just yesterday PM Haprer asked the Globe & Mail to prove, to wit I wrote Why? they already know! Hate to say but......... Shame, years of Building or Nation as one that stands above the maddening crowd, shot down in flames by a self centered group of misfits..... Reform/Alliance/Conservative and their new found NDP pals! Shame, and the PM must stand in our House of Commons and look the Stephane Dion in the eye and ask for forgiveness. To anything less is inhuman!
  171. mr curmodgeon from Canada writes: I have a simple solution - instead of handing the prisoners ove rto the Afghans let's deliver them to all the kindehearted Canadians who fret so much over there fate - they can stay in their spare room and at night they can make sm'[ores and sing kumbayah. I trust our soldiers to make the right call and if they occasionally make a wrong one I stand behind them then as well. A lot of the people who have left messages on this subject I wouldn't trust one iota - I bet their moral stances would fade in a moment if they were personally afected -
  172. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Don Adams. You're missing the point! Nobody is taking the sides of terrorists or the Taliban. The problem is that we're not practicing what we preach. We are undermining our own mission by allowing or unofficially condoning torture. It's a serious accusation that deserves a serious response, not just the same old red herrings, 'we don't support our troops, we hate Bush, we want the terrorists to win etc'. Can you say anything intelligent for a change? For all you know, I could be a neocon. Because if there's one thing 'we' neocons got wrong, was that our ideals failed on the battlefield. We undermined our own ideology once we put them into practice. Whether you're on the right or left, condoning torture is just plain BAD policy. We neocons can't advocate torture without undoing the logic that got us into Afghanistan/Iraq in the first place (P.S. I'm not really a neocon--but it shouldn't matter, should it?)
  173. Todd W from Canada writes: The G&M thinks that this is such a huge story that the bulk of Canada cares about, get real. Go ahead and push an election on this issue and you will see an overwhelming about of people sick of the opposition parties sticking up for some terroists in a country thousands of miles away instead of Canadian soliders who are trying to bring law and order to that land. Another example of the opposition parties trying to make nothing into something. Maybe if the Liberals had not decimated the CND military down to what it is, we would not have to turn over prisoners and have to borrow tanks from other nations to protect our soliders, but they felt money was better spent on a defunct gun registry (which only saw gun crimes rise- point to Toronto), some great Canada ads that lined french Liberal pockets and so on and so on.

    Also we need to get a ticker on how many times the opposition calls for the resignation of a conservative cabinet minister, what are we up to 50? Seems like a daily thing. Why, because they are too chicken to do the real deal and defeat the government on the floor in a vote. They got the numbers, step up and do it if you are so infused on these cabinet ministers.......yeah that's what I figured. Yellow.
  174. Sam M. from Montreal, Canada writes: So there was Harper yesterday in the house saying we are not going to take the word of a Taliban that they are being tortured WHEN IN FACT HE KNEW ALL Along they were!!!

    I've seen and heard enough and I'm not one bit impressed with this style of accountability and honesty!

    WHAT ACCOUNTABILITY AND HONESTY!!!!???

    There is none with Harper and his bunch!

    What else about Afghanistan have they hidden from us?

    BRING ON AN ELECTION!!!!

    Shame on Jack Layton and the N.D.P. for voting with this bunch yesterday!

    Hey Jack You remember those Liberal votes you borrowed in the last election? Well you just lost aLL of them yesterday!!!

    BRING ON AN ELECTION THE CIRCUS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND!
  175. James Young from Brantford, Canada writes: How low can a Country sink?

    >Larry Robinson from white Rock, Canada writes: This story has been flogged to death. Move on.

    You might change your mind if the wires from a field telephone where clipped to your nose and genitals. SQUEEEEL!


    Durgan.
  176. Mark Shore from Ottawa, Canada writes: Yet again, Harper follows the Bush modus operandi to the letter. Cover up, deny the obvious, and insult the patriotism, intelligence and motivation of anyone who opposes you. 'Black IS white, unless you're a cowardly closet al Qaeda/Taliban sympathizer.'

    But sadly, all is not well in Bushland. Ever so slowly six years of lies, corruption, incompetence and brutality is catching up to that appalling band of gangsters.

    Harper may want to reconsider his approach to foreign policy and open government, but I suspect he is too far too rigid and arrogant to change.
  177. Legal Eagle from Toronto, Canada writes: Who cares what happens to the terrorist taliban? Maybe we send the wacko left wingnuts on these boards to go give them a hug and kiss while they kill our troops. You people are really stupid. Go bake a cake and send it to your taliban friends when you cash your federal check.
  178. Richard Lego from Ottawa, Canada writes: Legal Eagle says who cares.

    You are missing the point or choose to ignore it. We could have said the same thing in WW2. Who cares about the Nazis German prisoners.
    Same thing in Korea who cares about those commie North Korean,
    and again same thing in Vietnam who cares about those communist viet cong.

    Stop twisting the geneva convention to your biased non legal idiotic right swing spin. To use you're example maybe we should ship all you supporters of Tory policy to the US where you would feel right at home with Mr. Bush.
  179. M G from Canada writes:
    How low can the G&M sink? I wonder where they got this version of the report? Anybody can make stuff up. Is this news in any of the other media.
    Harper is handling this correctly.
  180. John W. David from Canada writes: mr motoc from Canada writes: As revealed by the comments here: . . . Truth is the enemy of right-wing morons.

    No Motoc, it isn't. But the loony apologist left rates amongst the top three, the others being the federal and provincial liberal apologists, and armchair wannabes like you.
  181. Todd W from Canada writes: Mr. Motoc must have over dosed on his Viagra the night before and woke up on the hard side of the bed, without his 'partner' anywhere to be found. Turning terroism into a sexual thing now...wow the liberal lefties can 'swing' any kind of a story. Someone needs to stop watching Rosie for a day or two.
  182. John Percy from Halifax, Canada writes: Many of the posters here are asking what else isn't the government telling us. Well, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, Arthur Kent can tell you on the website http://www.skyreporter.com/. Arthur is one of the most respected journalists in the world today and has covered Afghanistan for 27 years. He covers stories that even the Globe and Mail are afraid to publish. Of particular interest to Canadians are the onging stories about Abdul Jabar Sabet, the Attorney-General of Afghanistan, and supposedly, a Canadian citizen and resident of Montreal. He's also a long-time associate of Gullbadin Hekmatyar, one of the most wanted terrorists in the Middle East, a known associate of Osama Bin Laden and a heroin warlord. Sabet sacked the head of the Kabul airport police for doing too good a job and now the heroin is flowing through Kabul airport again on schedule and into the arms of your kids. The profits from heroin sales goes back to Hekmatyar who gives it to the Taliban, who buy weapons to kill our troops. Sounds almost treasonous, doesn't it? Our government steadfastly refuses to answer any questions about Sabet, how he got here, what his status is and how his family are being supported. Sound almost like abetting a crime, doesn't it? Mr. Harper, for a man who wants us all to believe how smart and in control you are, feigning ignorance doesn't play well.
  183. Borat K. from Kazakhstan writes: G&M may be barking up the wrong tree. Who does the blacking out and editing of such documents? A low to mid level government of Canada bureaucrat. Not a political party or its staffer.

    It is silly to accentuate the positve and black out the negative. G&M is right to point it out. But this constant reliance on sensationalizing access to info articles is getting tired. Do some real reporting. If the Tories are as bad as some of these posters make them out to be, there must be many other avenue towards the bolstering of its case.
  184. mr curmodgeon from Canada writes: James Young - and you might feel a little differently if you and your family had lived and sufered under the indignities the taliban inflicted on the Afghan people. You think the occassional bit of gun violence on Yonge Street is unsettling - we can't even begin to imagine what dealing with people like the taliban (and it truly pains me to call them people - I am sorry) is like. Israel celebrated it's 59th aniversary yesterday - if people like you had their way they wouldn't have made it to their first.
  185. M G from Canada writes: Ill quote Stockwell Day ''I think what's disgraceful is to simply accept the allegations of what some Taliban suspects say at face value,' he said. 'That's not appropriate.'

    That is so true.
    And the G&M is now quoting 'independently obtained' documents to further privide 'proof' of their allegations.

    How low will the G&M sink to increase redership?
    What a bunch of croc.
  186. Geoffrey Diss from Berlin, Germany writes: The beginning of a bloody end for 'Canada's New Government' has begun.

    It'll be interesting to see how long the ultimate hypocrite, Layton, will prop up the lying war criminals.
  187. Sam M. from Montreal, Canada writes: It's funny we can get pictures of an Afghanistan prison but we cannot get a video nor a picture of all these roads,schools and hospitals we have supposedly built in Afghanistan.

    There is a lot we are NOT being told folks! I'm beginning to believe there are no new roads (oh I know they built one because they needed it for a supply route it wasn't built to help Afghani's) no new schools nor any new hospitals!

    WHY NO PICTURES? Did you ever think WHY NO PICTURES OF ALL THIS RE-BUILDING?

    Wait you take a Conservatives word for it right?

    LIKE WE WILL NOT TAX INCOME TRUST FUNDS?

    SOME WORD EH?
  188. Proud Canadian from United States writes: I'm still waiting for the workers at the Globe to start adopting all of these innocent Taliban soldiers. Oh the poor, poor Taliban babies, who have killed Canadians soldiers by the way, or the poor little darlings, how can they be treated so poorly.

    How you people don't bump into things all day with your heads screwed on backwards is beyond me.

    I think it is time for a Boycott of the Globe and Traitor Mail.
  189. Ryan Ginger from Ottawa, Canada writes: It's pretty sickening how the neocon readers and Harper sycophants are trying to downplay or refute this story. Alternatively, they try to blame the G&M or the Liberals. Very perplexing, but quite expected.

    My friends, we are talking torture and murder here.
  190. Don Adams from Canada writes: Jo Ingblat. Sorry, it's YOU that's missing the point. We have to turn prisoners over to the Afganis. Maybe they torture people, probably do, but so what? That's the norm over there. If we don't fight the Taliban by they're rules, we appear weak and vulnerable, and that encourages more people to join in the fight. We shouldn't even be taking prisoners who surrender after a firefight... we should be just blowing them away, sending a message to the Taliban that we're just not putting up with their crap. That's exactly the type of thing they'd do to us. Sorry Jo, ideals just don't cut it when you get down and dirty in a war. If you're not prepared to fight, to do whatever is necessary to win, then you're going to lose. No Marquis of Queensbury rules there. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer that we have as few deaths as possible among our people. If we're perceived as weak over there, even more will side with the Taliban, and we could experience even more deaths of our own troops.
  191. John Deckhardt from Western Halifax, Canada writes: I've asked this question before and I'll ask it again..........If we don't turn these Afghan prisoners who we captured in Afghanistan over to the Afghan government, what exactly should we be doing with them?

    Let them go? So tomorrow they can go plant an IED and kill more of our troops so then you can scream louder how our troops should not be fighting an American war?

    Set up our own prison and judicial system in Afghanistan? So you can scream how Canada is trying to become an imperial power and undermining the Afghan government?

    Bring them to Canada to be tried? So you can scream about how we are just as bad as the Americans and are trying to set up our own Gitmo? Or you can scream how irresponsible it is for the Harper government to bring terrorists into Canada?

    Please, somebody provide some options instead of the constant bleating about how bad this is. If you aren't going to provide some alternatives that are better than the status quo stop complaining.

    Oh, and 'pull the troops out' is not an option since we are going to be there for another 2 years at least.
  192. Sandal Wood from Yokohama, Japan writes: When I left Canada it was still a decent place, mostly full of fairly decent people. But within a few short years, people who condem government-sanctioned torture are being denigrated in a public forum as 'loony-left sissies'. All you neo-con cockroaches out there, where is your sense of morality? Where is your sense of history? Just what kind of society do you think our forefathers fought and died to build? Bin Laden must be laughing in his cave: one little scratch and our entire civilization starts devouring itself from within. I once would have called myself a conservative, but now I would be ashamed.
  193. Phlegmatic Pundit from Here and there, Canada writes: Geoffrey Diss from Berlin, Germany writes: The beginning of a bloody end for 'Canada's New Government' has begun.

    Probably not so. Harper has learned well from his masters in Washington. Just wrap any opposition to Canada's involvement in Afghanistan in the 'you do not support our brave troops who are there to defend your freedom' BS and the knuckle-scrapers will lap it up.
  194. Warning: Reading comments on the Globe could be hazardous to your faith in humanity from Canada writes: Anyone who is not upset by torture has lost touch with the real world and should seek counseling.
  195. Sam M. from Montreal, Canada writes: Borat K. from Kazakhstan writes: G&M may be barking up the wrong tree. Who does the blacking out and editing of such documents? A low to mid level government of Canada bureaucrat. Not a political party or its staffer.

    Like the ad scam WAS ALL BUREAUCRATS TOO? Hey THAT didn't stop you blaming all Liberals!!!!!

    TOTALLY UNBELEVEABLE! Not to mention the king pin of these AD SCAM bureaucrats Chuck Guite was hired by the Mulroney Conservative government!

    Can you say narrowminded opinions?

  196. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: John Dekhart: The discussion should be brought up at the NATO meeting, later this week. The suggestion of a NATO built jail, seems to be the direction.
  197. Bill Bill from Trenton, Canada writes: This story is so BORING. Who cares really. All the Globe and Mail is trying to do is stir up more anti-Harper sentiment, as part of their planned endorsement of Dion/May when an election finally comes. The truth is that the whiners who are so concerned about the poor little Taliban (the same ones who blow up and shoot Canadian soldiers) are already lefty, liberal, anti-American types who will vote Liberal/Green anyway.
    G and M, please leave this stupid non-newsworthy 'investigative' crap to the CBC, and report real news.
  198. J G from Whitby, Canada writes: A post from http://www.skyreporter.com/ Posted by Afghan Boy | April 25, 2007 2:37 a.m. I want to write the below comments for this very good topic. Thanks for writing such good reports. We Afghans suffer much from all these corrupt leaders among them is Abdul Jabar Sabet. All the Western countries do not understand the situations well in Afghanistan and invest only on fighting and not political reforms. The people of Afghanistan does not support president Karzia government and his corrupt facist team any more, this is the main reason of the insatability in the country. Security problem is spreading in all Afghanistan and this government is losing its last confidence among Afghans. Karzia has been circled by a few corrupt people, who do not care about future of Afghans and Afghanistan. I advise the Western Countries to review thier procedures for Afghanistan, otherwise they will face the worse resistance rather then Iraq. It is the time to speak honestly with Karzia team and should address to him the process of reforms. We are tried of all the corrupt people in this government.....Please we do not need more fighting we need your assistance to reform this government and assist us to have a democratic reperesentative and cleen government before the time runs out.....and your more people are killed in the war. Taliban will never accept the reconcilation, unless they are given all the government to impelement thier own laws and understanding of Islam. After five years we are losing our hopes and confidence and facing the worse corrupt government in the world. Abdul Jabar is a terrorist like Mullah Omer, Usama and Hekmatyar. Please Assist.
  199. Larry King Jr. from Windsor, Canada writes: In many parts of the world they play hardball. But in Canada we play softball. Very softball. In fact we play mushball. For example, a Liberal judge just let a cop killer out on bail. Unbelievable. Is it any wonder such Liberals have problems with reality.
  200. Brian Havelock from Winnipeg, Canada writes: O'Connor and the Newfie General Hillier should be fired.
  201. Phlegmatic Pundit from Here and there, Canada writes: John Deckhardt from Western Halifax, Canada writes: I've asked this question before and I'll ask it again..........If we don't turn these Afghan prisoners who we captured in Afghanistan over to the Afghan government, what exactly should we be doing with them?

    How about: either declare war (but on whom?) and treat them as POWs, once they have been proven beyond doubt as 'enemy' troops and not innocent victims caught in a general round-up, and treat them accordingly, or get out of Afghanistan.
  202. Brandan Matchett from halifax, Canada writes: Do you have to go all the way to Afghanistan to find corruption in government, I don't think you do. Any Libs want to comment?
  203. Geoffrey Diss from Berlin, Germany writes: Phlegmatic Pundit,

    I fear you may be right. No doubt that'll be the strategy, along with anything else they can lift from the Bush/Cheney play book. However, I have much more faith in our media to pursue the truth AND in Canadians' ability to distinguish between supporting their troops and turning a blind eye to their government's lying, criminal ways. One can see from many, many of these posts that that distinction is lost on, or willfully deflected by some; but the vast majority of current CPC supporters are ordinary Canadians whose tolerance for what we are learning is absolutely nil.
  204. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Don Adams. Once again you missed the point. Did you even read what I wrote? Let me rephrase that: Can you even read? I suggest you read what I wrote again, maybe a few times, mull it over.... slowly....If you want to write some letters to the heads of command in Afghanistan, then be my guest, but for the moment we are taking prisoners. The question is, what do we do with the prisoners? If we turn them over, we are complicit in torture. That might seem fine to you, I guess, but it undermines the mission--and I'm sure it ain't fine to the Cons in Ottawa, they're only recourse thus far being denial, not begruding (or enthusiastic) acceptance. REMEMBER: these aren't lefty ideals that are at stake here, these are clear-cut neocon ideals that are being undermined. They are the very premise of why we're in there in the first place. We promised law/order/democracy/ liberal values etc. If the Afghan government doesn't deliver, THEN NEITHER DO WE!!!! Our mission in vein! As for your schpeel about tactics on the battlefield... Who really cares what you think on that note? I don't!
  205. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Frank N. Stein: I haven't experienced many road-side bombs in Canada.
  206. The Original and One and Only True PRAGMATIC PUNDIT from Canada writes: Why bother looking at the facts of the story when you can let your emotions rule your thoughts. Lefties - lift up your rose couloured glasses, wipe your tears and have a good read of the facts. The story says that detainees:

    'faced the possibility of torture, abuse and extrajudicial killing'

    Does it say they WERE tortured? - No.

    It goes on to say: Among the sentences blacked out by the Foreign Affairs Department in the report's summary is 'Extrajudicial executions, disappearances, torture and detention without trial are all too common,'

    Does it say that Canada participated or knowingly handed prisoners off to such a fate? - No.

    Welcome to a war zone. That's what happens in war. Get used to it.

    Try not to get sucked in by the lefty media pandering to their light headed audience. I know it's tough when your logic is all clouded with emotion and thoughts of pretty flowers and blue skies, but try not to let your giddiness get in the way of those nasty facts.

    I know it's tough libbys and ultra left flower children, but try to work with the rest of society.
  207. Peter Kells from Ottawa, Canada writes: Mr. Don Adams, if I understand your recent post regarding cement head lefty's you are implying that people who disagree with you and Mr. Harper are 'Canada's enemies'. That is kind of an interesting polarization of the issue - kind of a twist on 'you are either with us, or agin us' eh. Are the arguements you make so weak that anyone who holds a different view must be an enemy of Canada? What is next - should all of these 'enemies of Canada' be rounded up and detained for espousing views you disagree with?
  208. bill williams from whitehorse, Canada writes: wahhh ,wahhh i,m talaban i want three hots and a cot and i want canadians to supply it.i want access to mahar arars lawyer so i can retire to the okanagan.give me a break.these are the guys that beat women that have their nails painted.where are the feminists??convienetly hiding behind human right types instead of the shrieking harridans they usually are.any compassion does not apply here.suck it up boys.you get what you give.
  209. Sam M. from Montreal, Canada writes: Dwayne Allan from Canada writes: First thing the Cons say is here we go more sympathy for the Taliban.What about 'How many more times will this 'new' government bold face lie to us?'

    If they are capable of stooping to this WELL?:::

    http://www.robertfulford.com/RahimJaffer.html

    Astonishingly, no one seemed delighted to learn that Matthew Johnston had impersonated his boss, Rahim Jaffer, MP, in an interview on a Vancouver radio station

    Everytime I see Rahim Jaffer on T.V. ranting about the Liberals I cannot help but think about this! Rahim Jaffer king of honesty and accountability? NOT!
  210. Rex's Experiment from T-Dot, Canada writes: Million dollar question - do you think those actions weren't going on before Harper took over as PM?
  211. John Silverman from Canada writes: Absolutely shamefule! The cons are really blowing it.

    Please don't try to defend torture and murder. It is shameful to yourself and Canada to try to justify such horrendous acts.
  212. fedup taxpayer from ottawa, Canada writes: Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Frank N. Stein: I haven't experienced many road-side bombs in Canada

    Keep going down the path you are suggesting and you will be getting that experience up close and personal. I would much rather fight that war over there and not here, but your god Dion wants to import the war to Canada.
  213. fedup taxpayer from ottawa, Canada writes: If the Globe has the full uncensored report then print it. I think the Globe is lying just to stick it to the conservatives. Everyone knows the Globe is the organ of the Liberal party.
  214. Sam M. from Montreal, Canada writes: Brandan Matchett from halifax, Canada writes: Do you have to go all the way to Afghanistan to find corruption in government, I don't think you do. Any Libs want to comment?

    Yes I do as a matter of fact! Not one elected Liberal M.P. ever charged nor convicted of any wrong doing over the decade they were in power!

    In this country (up until now at least although the Conservatives may change this) you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law!

    RIGHT OR WRONG Mr. Matchett?
  215. Anton Berger from Kelowna, Canada writes: just a comment for all the intelligent people posting here - don't let the neo-cons pull you off topic! this story isn't about Abu Graib, it's not about the Taliban, it's not about the Bush administration, it's not even about whether we should be in Afghanistan. this story is about the fact that our Conservative gov't knew all about the torture that Afghani prisoners faced, they knew and allowed our soldiers to be complicit in this, they knew and they LIED to our faces about it.

    yes the Liberals set up the prisoner transfer, no, their hands aren't clean. but the Conservatives constantly try to claim the moral high ground, here they've proven themselves, at best, no better than the Liberals and, at worst, no better than the Taliban. they've also proven themselves to be cold blooded, bold faced liars as well.

    don't let the neo-cons pull you off topic, don't let them dictate the argument. this is a serious issue that strikes at the heart of what we value as Canadians. we deserve a government that is truthful with us, we deserve one that pays more than just lip service to Canadian values. we need to make our voice heard.
  216. Satori Zen from Warriors' Land, Canada writes: Enough lies and deception! This is Canada. Enough NDP, Liberal and Bloc support, in turn, for those know-nothing amateurs.Topple that pseudo-government, kick them all goodbye, and mobilize the population. Support the best in us : bring the troops back to Canada. More than ever, we have nothing good to do there!
  217. Suzi Creamcheese from Canada writes: Bad things happen in War, enough of this Stupid story. Its afghans VS Afghans.

    At least we know that the Globe is part of the Fibberals Campaign.

    Lets not forget foliks your beloved Liberal filthy party stole 500 Million Dollars from Tax payers pockets with sponsorship Rip off.
    The Criminal Liberal Party never again!
  218. adam Uppal from St. Catharines, Canada writes: I am a Canadian citizen living overseas and an avid follower of politics. For long I have been pround of Canada's role in the world. Although it has decreased steadily over the years, we were still considered a nation that respected international law. I expected this type of behaviour from our Conservative government, which I believe only represents 1/3 of our voters. I sincerely hope that the Liberals - known as our 'natural' governing party, did not hand over our troops so easily. I am pretty sure they had more oversight and concern. The fact that the NDP recently rejected to a withdrawal in 2 years is both shocking and disgraceful. What has happened to Canada? We are being governed by an ideological right-wing party, our army is complicit in torture and extra-judicial killings as part of an American (not UN) mission, and the NDP is offering political support! This is rediculous. I fear that Canadian values and ideals are being eroded. Will we lose them or return to what we used to be. I want to tell others how good our nation is and truly mean it.
  219. Sam M. from Montreal, Canada writes: Bill Bill from Trenton, Canada writes: This story is so BORING. Who cares really

    Well the Afghanistani farmer who got rounded up and turned over and tortured might care a bit.

    Seems he was not a Taliban and is now free after being tortured!

    Of course you see nothing wrong with torturing the people WE ARE SUPPOSE TO BE HELPING DO YA?

    WOW! It's really hard to believe how narrowminded people can be on any given issue!!!

    It's the CONSERVATIVES CAN DO NO WRONG LOGIC FOLKS!!!!
  220. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: fedup taxpayer: I would never use your description of national political leadership. The two religion/politicals are very separate in my mind.
    I believe some posters are confusing the errors occuring in Afghanistan and using it as a slur against our Canadian judiciary. I see these two issues as very separate, also. We are very fortunate in Canada and should , on the majority of occasions, be proud of our judiciary.
    I am not as secure in the notion that you are presenting that our presence in Afghanistan will eliminate any threat to our domestic soil. That argument is obscure.
  221. Don Adams from Canada writes: Perhaps that's what it will take Catherine. A couple of bombs going off here in Canada wiping out a bunch of people, before you idealists see reason? Perhaps our police, when they find a crew planning on something like that, should just let them do what they want to do, as a wake up head slap to unrealistic idiots? Would you be happy then?
  222. Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada writes: All this was predictable and was indeed predicted in comments made here repeatedly in the Globe, with that government's supporters yelling and screaming we did not know what we were talking about, accompanied by all terms of abuse possible. That government is completely discredited, deserves not govern a decent country like Canada. Save the country: write, demonstrate, mobilize, kick them out now.
  223. Frank Rizzo from Halifax, Canada writes: Don Adams from Canada writes: ... Sorry Jo, ideals just don't cut it when you get down and dirty in a war. If you're not prepared to fight, to do whatever is necessary to win, then you're going to lose.

    Wow Don - good thought - whatever is necessary. Next we should use mustard gas, or maybe bioweapons, we could probably get Ebola from the CDC. How about we go around killing all of the children so they can't grow up to become potential enemies. We could probably manage to round them up and gas them. You would have fit in really well in Germany oh... say around 1939 or so. Is that where you get your talking points from? Mein Kampf?
  224. Don Adams from Canada writes: Peter Kells from Ottawa. Speaking personally, and not as a member of the Cons party, yeah, I do feel all ultra lefty socialists and communists should be rounded up for a bit of reality education. They sure didn't get any during their formative years! They're weak minded individuals, had their heads pumped full of this socialist crap by professors and didn't have the strength of mind or body to weigh what was being taught to them by the idealist academics. I'm all for all 18 - 20 years olds to have to serve 2 years in the forces as well. There, they'd be taught realism, and would have that strength and knowledge to fall back on once they got to university or college and the academics started in on them with their BS. Kids sure don't get taught realism in the home or at school these days!
  225. Suzi Creamcheese from Canada writes: Latest polls. This story will blow away means nothing the vote is still 3 months away.

    MR. Harper 62%
    Celine 31%
    Taliban Jack 7%
  226. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Don Adams: You misunderstand. I believe in justice. I believe in accountability.
    I am uncomfortable with Minister's Day speech delivered, yesterday. He appeared to act as judge and jury on these prisoners. PM Harper is, correctly, waiting until the allegations are proven and Minister Day is jumping the process and judging them.
    Evil and terrorism is not exclusive to Afghanistan. Our shores have been targeted by terrorists. Hopefully, cooler heads prevail.
    Canada should be a role model of democracy. If we tolerate abuse to some, what do we stand for?
  227. Richard Soley from writes: Very interesting, since 2002 we have been in Afghanistan, the Liberal government was in power and thus must have known from the onset. What troubles me more than anything is the one sided approach this article takes, perhaps there is more at stake here than just how Crimninals and terrorists are being treated. perhaps there is a political agenda here in Canada?
  228. Diogenes the Cynic from Canadian Warriors' Beach, Greece writes: Harperistanis, as your friends like to say: 'You're TOAST!'
  229. Brian Havelock from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Polls mean nothing. This will be one of the election issues for the Harpocrits.
  230. Coniuratio Ratio from Regina, Canada writes: What do you expect? Harper is the man who apologized for Canada's position on Iraq when the war was popular and before he was Prime Minister. We knew better, but sadly the Liberals were corrupt and we had no other options. However we are now stuck with a militaristic, dishonest party who 'sets aside' human rights whenever it deems fit. I have to be thankful that Canadians realize, at least to some extent, that we can't give Harper a majority. He can't be trusted. I am hopeful that we have a minority government for a long time. They can either the corrupt liberals or militaristic conservatives until something better comes along. Don't even get me started with Jacko, he disappoints me to no end.
  231. Bill Thompson from Calgary, Canada writes: As far as I am concerned the only people entitled to human and civil rights are those who through their long term actions and lifestyle have demonstrated a responsibility and positive contribution to their societies. Anyone violating civil disorder by way of violent conduct against individuals or society forfeits their “rights”. I am referring specifically to anyone involved in violent and murderous crime or attempts at same. They include terrorists and their supporters. To imply that our troops are guilty of war crimes because they turn over individuals caught in the act of terrorist activities brings up my bile. How anyone in their right mind can defend the actions and the rights of these people to carry out their murderous action against innocents is beyond me. I can only conclude that such folks have never had an empty stomach or faced imminent life-threatening danger or felt the heat of a bullet going past one’s head through no fault of their own but caused by terrorists. If they had they may just have a different outlook on the “rights” of those out to get them and their loved ones. Also I wish to echo my disappointment at the lack of a balanced approach and the obvious sympathy being displayed for these detainees as presented in these pages. The detainees were there for a reason, there is a war underway and while their treatment is harsh it is not anywhere near as bad as being inflicted by the enemy. And just how did the G & M manage to get hold of an uncensored document? I think someone ought to be brought to task for stealing classified documents in a time of war. Don’t You?
  232. Steve Tatone from Canada writes: What a disgrace! Not only are we sending our brave men and women to fight and die for a regime that tortures and 'disappears' its own citizens...by forcing them to hand over prisoners to a body the WE KNOW turtures people...we force our soldiers to violate international law in our name. Heads better roll over this one or Canadians outght to be ashamed. If $100 Million dollars can cause a scandal and illegal complicity in prisoner torture and murder can't, then Canada has some humanity problems. Frank Rizzo-Halifix-Great post!
  233. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: Facts this board can't or won't seem to accept
    the Liberals were in power for most of Canada's participation in Afghanistan
    why should we believe the word of the Taliban. these are evil people who dreamed up 9-11.
    I really don't get the outrage here.
  234. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Good Morning.

    What a tough situation, yet if this story is TRUE about knowledge and cover-up of the truth, this now becomes terribly disturbing concerning the credibility of O'Connor and PM Harper.

    As with all other 'questionable' situations, it comes down to what did one know, and when did they know it. Why can't the truth be told with explanations, and plans to remedy the mistakes with a more comprehensive plan? If something went wrong, admit it, (war does throw curve balls), fix the wrongs, and move on.

    Regardless of the debate about what to do with prisoners, the government cover-up trumps that situation.

    Once again, it's pretty easy for us to give opinions from a million miles away. This is not a conventional war. So we capture 'prisoners' who are trying to blow our troops' brains out. We have them in custody, and now what do we do? Give them back to the Afghanis to deal with them the way they want? Send them elsewhere? If so, where? Build POW camps and become a permanent prison fixture costing more millions of dollars for the Canadian taxpayer? So what do we do that makes sense?
  235. Don Adams from Canada writes: Frank Rizzo. Thanks for trying to turn my words around. But you have a brown line across the middle of your eyes my friend.... you;re down a quart.

    Yeah, I'd advocate all that crap, but only if they used it first. No other choice. We didn't, we'd lose. So I'd use it, yeah, because I'm no whimp. If one's in a fight, one does what one has to do to win, otherwise, no sense fighting. So you fight by using the rules the other guy makes. Flower Power types just don't understand that though, and that's what makes them weak and susceptable to being subjugated by others. But, just keep dreaming little fellow.
  236. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: Brian Havelock from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Polls mean nothing. This will be one of the election issues for the Harpocrits.

    yes, i'm sure Canada is full of people who feel bad for the Taliban. did you note my sarcasm? sheesh
  237. Dark Green from Circus Parade, Cuba writes: Still trying hard to make it a schoolyard type 'it's not us it's the liberals' issue... For Allah's sake, take responsibility, guys, just once. Once only! Show us how you do that, as grown ups. Can you?
  238. Morgan Lefay from Ottawa, Canada writes: I guess this means that Canadian soldiers can expect the same treatment when captured by the Taliban right ?

    If we can allow the torture of their detainees why can't they torture our captured soldiers ?

    You often get back what you dish out.....
  239. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T torture people in that part of the world. Jeez...Canada is allied with a corrupt, criminal government in Afghanistan and their culture includes torture. Live with it or get out.
  240. Don Adams from Canada writes: Bill Thompson..... EXCELLENT post!
  241. Dark Green from Circus Parade, Cuba writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes: 'So what do we do that makes sense?' -- Mr. Carriere, first, first and foremost, first and above all, first without a doubt, first not last, first... WE TELL IT AS IT IS... WE TELL THE TRUTH. Otherwise, all that makes sense and that liars and deceivers in (any) government need do is leave, run and go hide in one's closet.
  242. Dman T Patriot from Toronto, Canada writes: Who Cares - its the Afgans government right to do whatever they want in order to protect their citizens and others around the world from these crazy terrorists.
    seems like they are just playing the same rules as the terrorists

    bottom line - must win at all costs and these taliban maniacs want it this way
  243. Wade Donner from Toronto, Canada writes: These terrorists are POW's now. They have lost all their human rights and should be treated like renegade wild dogs. A bullet is a waste of money on them. Hang 'em high and move on to the next one.

    This is a war and the enemy should be treated like a poisoned rat. Perferably a dead one.
  244. Jim Goodwin from Canada writes: If we truly want to be a leader in this world we need to lead by example. It does not matter what the enemy does, it does matter what we do. I do not care which party started doing this, or which one perpetuated it. I do not like being lied to by any of them. We should stop all prisoner transfers until this is sorted out and we have the same visitation as the Dutch. It is not only important to be correct on this issue we must also be seen to be correct. You do not win hearts and minds by handing people over for torture. This is not a matter of Liberal or Conservative, it is a matter of humanity. We have what is probably the most professional military in the world, and it is too bad their political masters do not have the same qualifications.
  245. Steven Flopper from Port, Canada writes: Hey. Hot off the press. O'Connor will be fired by weeks end and Day will be moved to another portfolio on May 16th. Mark these dates down. I got the fox by mistake. Sort of a mistake.
  246. d rex from Toronto, Canada writes: Anyone who can complain that this story is 'flogged to death' or 'boring' has an APPALLING
  247. Pete Kauchak from Cascadia, Canada writes: Steven Flopper from Port, Canada ,

    O'Connor should be fired or MacKay? REMEMBER it was a FOREIGN AFFAIRS report.
  248. Jack Ryan from Toronto, Canada writes: I think we are witnessing history in the making. The Globe and Mail's investigative journalism on this topic is the best I have seen in a long time. The Globe should be commended for helping us keep our government accountable. If stories like this keep rolling-out, the whole Harper government is going to come crashing-down.
  249. William Doyle from Prince George, Canada writes: Criminal George bush must be very happy with his little boy Steve and I bet he will soon be invited to the bush Texas ranch for a weekend. I as a Canadian of forty years am horrified, Harper and O'Connor hopefully will have to answer for their crimes in the Hague.
  250. Steve Lee from Canada writes: This is what Taliban Jack supported! The N.D.P are just bench warmers in Ottawa offering nothing of substance and a waste of tax dollars. Are they allowed to stay in a hotel or a motel?
  251. Dark Green from Canadian Warriors' Inn, Cuba writes: lenny jones from Bangkok, Thailand writes: ... The list goes on and on with these creeps... -- Your list is my list, lenny jones. Too bad you did not make it exhaustive... You're welcome in Cuba anytime! Be my guest. Do you like excellent old rhum, cigars and succulent roast pork? If not, we can accomodate ('accommodements raisonnables'... of course!). Drop by soon, I am expecting you. Just ask for Dark Green. They know me... Cordialement.
  252. Brian Havelock from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Derek:

    That is nice country you live in around Swan River. Let me tell you something my friend I don't have any sympathy for terrorists of any sort. The issue here is the Newfie General Hillier (presumably with the consent and knowledge of O'Connor) knowingly excluding the safeguards required by the Geneva Convention. Now maybe you folks in Swan River feel that these basic human rights should be overlooked but I don't.
  253. Joe Collins from Calgary, Canada writes: The Taliban is more likely to have your head than shake your hand in peace. One less is one less.
  254. d rex from Toronto, Canada writes: Anyone who complains this story is 'flogged to death' or 'boring' has an APPALLING lack of moral conscience. To divide this along party lines and claim a bias in the media after seeing what lengths the Conservatives went to keep this hidden is just astonishingly ignorant. Try being arrested and imprisoned for years, tortured and then even killed and then tell me it's the media, Liberals, NDP, Blocs out to get the Conservatives. Ignoring these horrendous abuses won't make them go away, wake up!
  255. say Bunker News fails in hostile takeover bid of Reuters from Canada writes: A lot of Harper apologists on this thread ask ' what choice do we have ? Give some suggestions .'

    I hope none of you are involved in free trade negoiations with Korea .

  256. Erik D. from Canada writes: Blatant lying to the House of Commons and to Canadians by both Harper and O'Connor. So this is what they mean by the new government of Canada? What a disgrace to our country and to our soldiers. Our soldiers fight in a honest and civilized manner, taking great effort and pride in doing so and at a cost to their own saftey, as it is the right thing to do, as it honours the soldiers who fought for these rights in previous wars.

    And now we see that this government doesn't have the guts or backbone to act with same amount of honesty and integrity and resorts to out right lies and deception. How can anyone trust this government on anything they say anymore?
  257. Paul F. from Toronto, Canada writes: It looks like its not just Bush who is in a state of denial. How bad can it get? This of course underlines that we are supporting a corrupt and abusive government. Something that if our journalists did their job we would all be more familiar with. Let's stop confusing supporting our troops with supporting the mission. It was so simple when then Conservatives painted the war as the 'good guys' (us) against the 'bad guys' (them). But of course in oversimplifying the conflict, even comparing it to WWI and WWII, the Tories have done Canadians a disservice. The war in Afghanistan is very much a product of the complex ethnic makeup of Afghanistan, its economic backwardness, and the influence of its neighbours (namely Pakistan) and the West. We can not make turn around the situation there militarily. Afghanistan requires a massive amount of investment and security to turn it around, and that just isn't going to happen, the resources aren't there. So the stategy is flawed. The facts in this report show nothing new. The abuse stories have been there for anyone willing to see it. What is notable is how much the government has worked to deceive the Canadian electorate. The rightwingers here seem to vary from complete state of denial to basically endorsing counter insurgency warfare without limit. ie torture, beat, kill all who resist you into submission. France thought this was a good idea in Algeria and the US did in Vietnam. Did that make their respective countries MORE OR LESS safe? Judging by the body count, I think the answer is obvious. If that's how Don Adams et al want to defend this conflict. So be it. Let the Tories put this program to a vote in an election. Let the Canadian people choose if thats the kind of war it wants its soldiers in. I expect we won't have to hear about the 'new' Harper government much longer after such an election.
  258. Don Adams from Canada writes: Dark Green, as far as I'm concerned, we ARE being told the truth. Canadian soldiers are turning over Afgani detainees, to Afgan authorities. They're not capturing another Country's troops and turning them over..... these detainees are basically insurgent civilians. End of story. Whatever the Afganis want to do with them is their business, not ours.
  259. lad lladie from Canada writes: Jo Ingblatt and others wasting time replying Don Adams and other pro-torturers: Neocons failures in government and battlefields, or simply understand what they read, is due to their practice of head binding practiced in their infancy. (They belive head binding makes them superior) What happens in headbinding is called cranial syntosis, a syndrome well known to pediatric neurosurgeons. Normally the skull bones float until at least two years of age, but head binding fuses them prematurely so that the growing infant brain is put under pressure. This makes the brain squeeze downward, damaging the hippocampal region that is critical for memory input (one of the reason they forgot why they're waging a war in Afghanistan and Iraq). Also the head deformation, caused by head binding, makes the neocon unable to understand that torture and democracy, or democracy through the barrell of the gun, do not result in the desired ends, if anything, the opposite happens. Unfortunately, because of the thickness of their squezeed brain matter, they also lack the ability to recognize the difference between the two results.
  260. Brian Havelock from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Joe Collins:

    Put down your crack pipe and seek help. There is less chance of your head being detached from your body by a member of Taliban than you dying in a car crash at the hands of a drunk driver.
  261. Craig Martin from Philadelphia, United States writes: Leaving aside comments on the substance, let me congratulate the Globe and Mail for outstanding journalism in this case. This kind of investigative journalism is all too rare in Canada these days, and the Globe is to be congratulated for this work. Well done.
  262. Dark Green from Canadian Warriors' Inn, Cuba writes: Jack Ryan from Toronto, Canada writes: I think we are witnessing history in the making. The Globe and Mail's investigative journalism on this topic is the best I have seen in a long time. The Globe should be commended for helping us keep our government accountable. If stories like this keep rolling-out, the whole Harper government is going to come crashing-down. -- I totally agree with Jack Ryan. Well done, Globe. May you do same with all our governments. You deserve to be read. Regards.
  263. J. hangdog from Canada writes: MG and other Cons: You’ve run out of credible argument. Are you (MG) suggesting that the G&M forged the transparent (non-blacked out) version of the government’s own report? Yesterday, following Harper, it was:”These are only allegations; show us the proof.” Today it’s “The G&M is making it up.” Or “The G&M should just move on; this is old news.” (In fact the story –more Harper/O’Connor duplicity--is just breaking now.) Or “Torture is okay because the Taliban are evil.” (Even Harper would renounce –at least publicly-- this stance because it’s so antithetical to Canadian and Western liberal-democratic values.) Or “Harper opponents should be deported.” or “Due process is for wussies.” In short, all you’ve got left are right-wing FRINGE (quasi fascist) arguments. Show some intellectual integrity here. Admit you’re wrong.
  264. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: I support our troops! I support them from being free of committing war crimes! Shame on the chicken-hawk neo-con leaders that are forcing our troops to act like common war-criminals. Harper and co. should be tried for treason!!
  265. Joe Collins from Calgary, Canada writes: Morgan Lefay from Ottawa: How naive can one person be. The Taliban would torturenad then behead any prisoner taken. This is a war against terror and thise who say ' we don't have roadside bombs in Canada are just plain stupid. Lets just pull out ands we'll see bombs soon enough. The childish thoughts of some obvious Talaiban Jack followers make me wonder, where are your brains. Terrorism in all it's forms must be stopped or we will see it in our cities.
  266. Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes:

    Yesterday, Jack Layton of the NDP, and his flock of brain dead lemmings supported this government, its deliberately misleading leaders, and the reprehensible torture practices of the Afghan prisoners handed over by our troops. No words of outrage can excoriate this massive cruelty permitted by the harper regime (ie 'new government') and its military colluders.

    CANADA MUST GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN NOW!!!!
  267. scott thomas from Canada writes: War crimes. I expect to see charges laid. Who wrote the report, who was is given to, and who censored it? These are not state secrets, these are punishable by imprisonment. Harper's lust for war will be the end of him, and not a moment too soon.
  268. Malcolm Jussawalla from writes: Reading from the article, there is no indication of who knew what and when. Those on this bbs who are demanding the Taliban be treated fairly, should probably extend the same courtesy to our own government until all the facts are laid on the table.
  269. Gord Cee from Canada writes: Difficult to get too worked up about this issue. We're talking about radical Muslims who would slit your throat for no other reason then not believing in their mediaeval and violent religious views. I would suspect that most of them have committed atrocities beyond belief. Having said all this it would be nicer if their captors took a higher moral ground
  270. Dark Green from Canadian Warriors' Inn, Cuba writes: Don Adams from Canada writes: Dark Green, as far as I'm concerned, we ARE being told the truth. -- Well then, Don, it means you simply relish deceiving yourself... If so, that is the saddest possible.
  271. Dman T Patriot from Toronto, Canada writes: Who cares - defeat and kill the enemy. that is our primary goal. What is the goal of the Taliban - kill and terrorize all Western civilization.

    Do you lefties have any idea? You're all so clueless. If you are so outraged, why not go over to Afgan and ask for a meeting with the Taliban... you guys can talk about how you both want woman to be educated, gays to get married, etc ect.
    then they'll chop off your head
  272. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Don Adams - 'Whatever the Afganis want to do with them is their business, not ours.' --- Spoken like a true yellow-bellied callous conservative. You're cutting and running from your responsibilities Don, typical of the conservative ideology.
  273. True North from Canada writes: **Larry Robinson from white Rock, Canada writes: This story has been flogged to death.**

    Just like the prisoners no doubt. Steve Harper is soft on human rights. Another example: in Parliament yesterday Steve said he dismissed the claims of 'suspected Taliban' Steve forgets that someone is innocent until proven guilty and these are the very same rights that he told Canadians we were in Afghanistan fighting and dying to protect.

    Steve Harper is a terrilble and dangerous leader.
  274. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Joe Collins - As someone put it to you previously;

    Put down your crack pipe and seek help. There is less chance of your head being detached from your body by a member of Taliban than you dying in a car crash at the hands of a drunk driver.
  275. Paul C from Toronto, Canada writes: Joe Collins is right. If we do not capture and hand over people for torture in Afghanistan there will be terrorist attacks in Canada. Makes sense to me.
  276. Rick McNaulty from Calgary, Canada writes: Dave Jansen from Whocares - You disgust real Canadians.
  277. maurizio arani from woodbridge, Canada writes: Shame on you G&M!!!!!, What you forget to mention is that these so called prisoners are nothing less then killers. They do not distinguish between men women and children and would have little thought when it comes to killing our troops and their own people. If they are indeed tortured then I guess that is little suffering compared to what they have done to this nation. It is not Canada that is torturing these killers but the Afghans. So what is done after Canadian troops hand them over is their business
  278. Justin Campbell from Ottawa, Canada writes: Idiots. Canada's mission in Afghanistan has just been killed.
  279. Lee Turner from Canada writes: Ignore all the strawman arguments, and answer these simple questions:

    Did the Government say they didn't know that the prisoners that were being handed over were being tortured? Yes.

    Does it now appear that the government did know what they denied knowing? Yes.

    Is this an example of an open, accountable and transparent government?
  280. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: The thing is deplorable, but is anybody really surprised that Afghanistan hasn't become Denmark in the past five years?
  281. Don Adams from Canada writes: Jim Goodwin. Who wants to be a leader? When you're a leader, all that happens is others take pot shots at you. Better to be a worker bee, work with the Afganis who want our help, blow away whatever Taliban we can, and the ones we capture, just turn over to the Afganis. Let some other Country be the leader if they want, we should just be doing the job. Which our Military is doing.

    Something else. You're right, we DO have one of the most professional military's in the world. WHY? Because we let Armed Forces people run the Military and keep the damned politicians OUT of the decision making process. Once politicians get their hands on something, EVERYTHING gets screwed up! The Cons understand this far better than Libs, Dippers or Greens ever will!
  282. Dark Green from Canadian Warriors' Inn, Cuba writes: maurizio arani from woodbridge, Canada writes: Shame on you G&M!!!!!, What you forget to mention is that these so called prisoners are nothing less then killers. -- Maurizio, you don't know that, you simply ASSUME that. Even Canadian soldiers handing those people over to Afghan authorities most probably do not know that. For presenting your assumptions as facts, here is your expression in boomerang fashion: 'Shame on you!!!!!'
  283. Rex's Experiment from T-Dot, Canada writes: Are we fighting a nation or are we fighting a terrorist faction? The terrorist aren't subject to Canadian laws or Canadian courts and should be handed to the authorities of the nation we think we are helping.
    Let's be honest here, if we had a terrorist faction in Canada creating the same mess and America or Britain helped you people would be screaming if they didn't transfer prisoners to us.
    As for the comment of you get what you dish, your right. However, the Taliban was dishing it out before we arrived so is it not Karma coming back on the Taliban instead?
  284. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Dark Green from Circus Parade: I am with you on the 'Truth' thing! I still don't understand the need to cover up? Sooner or later, people get caught. Being forthright always wins out in the end.

    Look at the 1982 Tylonol scare where several people died because of tampered bottles by some crazy individual in Chicago.

    Instead of hiding or denying, Mc Neil company owned by the giant J&J came forward quickly to the public, took out all the pills throughout North America that cost them about 100 million dollars. Although their share of the market went from 35% to 8 %-the public ended up loving them in the long term and Tylenol became the number 1 painkiller in 2 years after that. They earned trust through their actions. Honesty and being forthright always win in the end.

    All that to say that people are smarter than politicians think they are, and can smell a good guy or a rat from very far away!

    BTW for the younger people-that is the reason why have the sealed packaging we have today. Before that, sophisticated packaging did not exist with seals and instruction books to open bottles or whatever.
  285. Tim N from Canada writes: I am appalled by most of the comments on this board. Because I am against torture and murder, I am a Taliban loving leftie? Should we kill their children too, becuase they kill children?

    Torture and murder is wrong. Handing over prisoners knowing that they will be tortured and murder makes us complicit in it.

    There is no possible excuse to condone our actions in this. If this is the way that the Afgan people want to deal with it, then we should pull out of that country, and they can do what ever the hell they want. As long as we are there, we should be measured against our own moral code, not theirs.
  286. Paul Rogers from Canada writes: Thanks to the Globe and Mail for this very important investigative journalism. As Canadian citizens we need to know what is being done in our name.
    I am fed-up with the lies of this 'New Government'. This is a national disgrace!
  287. N N from Toronto, Canada writes: Censored documents...sounds familiar. Just like the income trust fiasco. Another cover-up by the Conservative deceit machine. An election is needed NOW.
  288. True North from Canada writes: Steve Harper and his government's line here: 'the Taliban are presumed guilty before any type of process whatsoever and so deserve what they get'. This is the same government that told Canadians we are in Afghanistan fighting and dying for human rights. What a bunch of George Bush Juniors.
  289. Brian Sexsmith from Toronto, Canada writes: Thank you Harper, O'Connor and MacKay for showing Canadians once again that you are not to be trusted. It's bad enough that the Conservatives have lied to us continually about the situation in Afghanistan but now Canada's New Government is complicit to torture. I thought I'd never vote Liberal again - but call an election - I want these criminals out!
  290. Erik D. from Canada writes: To maurizio arani: By your logic, this means that all Conservatives, and their supporters are liars, as well, O'Connor has lied, and he's a Conservative, so all of them must be. And yes, anyone who we believe to be a Conservative (say they happen to be seen near a pack of Conservatives) is also a Conservative and a liar. We also won't need to prove any of these allegations as well, as its self evident, we all know it, eh? Thus, by your logic, we have no more need for a fair trial or any such silly thing such as the rights and freedoms that are soldiers are fighting and dying for and proudly adhering to while our new Government of Canada is caught doing the exact opposite.

    If this is so as you state, then why are our soldiers fighting and dying for these rights and freedoms when they don't mean diddly squat according to you?
  291. Don Adams from Canada writes: True North.... the Taliban don't DESERVE Human Rights. And, don't believe in them OR want them (except when someone's got a gun to their head and about to pull the trigger), so get off your high horse about god damned Human Rights
  292. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Section 5 of the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDoc/cs/C-45.9///en ). For those like Harper, O'Connor, Day, McKay now - I draw your attention to sections 5(2) and 5(2.1) in particular. The Act applies equally to military as it does to civilian superiors.

    If Harper does not resign and does not seek the resignations of O'Connor, McKay and Day and Generals Hillier, Leslie, Fraser, Colonel Gleeson, the JAG and every other proponent of this irresponsible, reckless and illegal manner of involvement in Afghanistan, it is only a matter of time before one might have the view that the Government of Canada is unwilling and incapable of investigating or prosecuting those who have committed offences - and a matter of time before some Canadian refers this entire case over to the Office of the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court...

    We are past the stage of saying this should not be happening. We are now at the stage of what do we do in the face of brazen and deliberate acts that have been ordered to continue, despite mounting evidence that all is not well in Ottawa, Kandahar, Petawawa, Gagetown, etc. etc. Iggy, shaking your head is not enough.

    To the civil servant who leaked this report to the G&M I commend your actions. Mr. Attran, there will be no winners out of this but I think you still did the right thing in bringing it to light. You will be hated by many - but there are a few who appreciate what you have done.

    To those CF personnel on the ground, again: review the National Defence Act, the QR&Os, Geneva Conventions and Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. Think about the orders you are being given, document them. If in doubt about them refer to QR&O Vol II, Chapter 19. Ignore the NOTES. If you carry out an illegal order and commit a war crime, you too will be held accountable individually.

    This will get worse before it gets better.
  293. Frank Rizzo from Halifax, Canada writes: Don Adams from Canada writes in response to my previous post which said: 'Next we should use mustard gas, or maybe bioweapons, we could probably get Ebola from the CDC. How about we go around killing all of the children so they can't grow up to become potential enemies. We could probably manage to round them up and gas them.'

    ... Yeah, I'd advocate all that crap, but only if they used it first. No other choice. We didn't, we'd lose. So I'd use it, yeah, because I'm no whimp. If one's in a fight, one does what one has to do to win, otherwise, no sense fighting.

    So Don 'Himmler' Adams would advocate using the strategies of the Nazi party to fix the problems in Afganistan, because that is what it takes to win. There were some trials in Nuremburg that dealt with that issue - you may wish to look up the results. I'm not sure exactly how quoting you directly is 'twisting your words'. I'm quite comfortable looking at my eye colour in the morning in the mirror - can you say the same?
  294. Christopher Redford from Canada writes: Don Adams, they will respond in kind, as they did with the Soviets. They will treat our soldiers in whatever fashion will get them out the fastest. If we say there are no rules, then we are seen to represent and practise that. Be prepared for the consequences.
  295. David Campbell from Grand bend, Canada writes: The Harper government discusts me on this issue. I can't believe what my Canada has become. I used to be a very proud Canadian.

    How can we claim to support the Afghan people and the support our troops, when we cannot insusre the fair treatment of prisioners we take.

    I have reported this issue to Amnesty International.

    I think the quote from the fellow at the Green party is right and here is a quote from them on the issue.

    ''Contrary to the stated beliefs of the Prime Minister, support for the Geneva Convention is not tantamount to support for the Taliban,' said Ms. May. 'It is not a choice between supporting fundamental human rights and supporting our troops.

    'How do we protect our troops if they are taken captive when we have shown contempt for the Geneva Convention? How do we call ourselves a decent nation?'
  296. Bob Stacy from Kingston, Canada writes: This is absolutely deplorable, it's time for this government to be accountable; of course this means O'Connor will be Harper's new scapegoat. First it was Rona, now it's O'Connor, I wonder who's the next con to be identified..... Harper or MacKay??

    Buh Bye...Conservatives.... I hope you enjoyed your power while it lasted.
  297. Ranald Walton from Hamilton, Canada writes: Why would Mr Dion want Taliban prisoners in Canada or having Canadian soldiers running PoW camps??? This is insane!

    The Liberal leader needs to explain his ludicrous policy.
  298. Brian Tilley from Edmonton, Canada writes: 'It's not clear why such internationally agreed and obvious observations are blacked out of the Canadian report.'

    How about because the Prime Minister is a liar...just like his daddy...George Bush!
  299. Don Adams from Canada writes: OK Tim N. I'll agree with part of your post.... lets pull out after our comittment has been fulfilled.... Feb 2009 I believe. BUT, while we're there, we have to do the job. And, that involves handing over any prisoners we take to the Afgani authorities. Our only other choices are.... don't take prisoners...(just tell the guy to drop the gun and let him go) OR shoot him where he stands (or kneels, Praying) Whatever. Those are the ONLY choices we have, so choose 1.
  300. D F from Red China, Canada writes: The really shame here is that once again Prime Minister Harper has demonstrated his governments ability to lie to Canadians. Lets throw the bums out.
  301. Charles Hastings from Canada writes: S Lucht from Canada writes: 'More things Ottawa doesn't want us to know--what exactly does Ottawa want us to know?'

    That they're not the Liberals; they certainly tell us that often enough.
  302. Christopher Redford from Canada writes: When Canadians are tortured in Syria & Iran, we are appalled. Why is enmity and sanctions urged for them, but cultural understanding and respect for soveriegnty is your argument for Afghans. TOTAL RATIONALIZATION.

    You can't have it both ways - if countries we don't like can be condemned as evil torturers, countries we are involved with who do the same thing must also be evil torturers.

    Again - I agree with you we shouldn't intrude on their internal affairs. I just take it to the logical conclusion: our miitary being there is an intrusion in the first place, and their relative professionalism is entirely beside the point.
  303. Brian Havelock from Winnipeg, Canada writes: 'The childish thoughts of some obvious Talaiban Jack followers make me wonder, where are your brains. Terrorism in all it's forms must be stopped or we will see it in our cities. '

    Really. Where is the terrorist Taliban Chapter in Calgary Joe? I like the city you live in even though it produces people who lack critical thinking skills.
  304. Jake The Snake from Canada writes: All the 'but they're brutal savages' statements in the world won't change the fact that the government lied about and covered up what was going on over there. So much for honest and open government and so much for the supposed priciples that got the conservative elected in the first place. There is a reason the government won't come out in public and say things like: ------ Don Adams - 'Whatever the Afganis want to do with them is their business, not ours.' Joe Collins from Calgary, Canada writes: The Taliban is more likely to have your head than shake your hand in peace. One less is one less. Suzi Creamcheese from Canada writes: Bad things happen in War, enough of this Stupid story. The Original and One and Only True PRAGMATIC PUNDIT from Canada writes: Welcome to a war zone. That's what happens in war. Get used to it. Legal Eagle from Toronto, Canada writes: Who cares what happens to the terrorist taliban? ------ The reason is: they would be toast and they know it and everybody I just quoted knows this too. Most Canadians wouldn't buy what you're selling. So if honesty won't work there is always deception, way to go people. Yeah 'Canada's New Government' is so much better than the previous government, NOT.
  305. mogens bay from Canada writes: Mr. Yeremko. 1 I would not vote PC. 2. I deal in facts, you in assumptions.
    As a matter of fact, I am not voting. PC liars. Lib liars and thiefs. Green what
    are their platform? nothing. NDP no financial plans but dreaming of winning?
    over $ 300 billion. By the way. Did you ever meet mr. Yeltsin?
    Then finally you seem to agree to, viligante justice? have they turned over whatever documents stolen to the Police. Have a wonderfull day.
  306. Frank N. Stein from Canada writes: Funny how this was not an issue when the Liberals were in power. Funny how this was not an issue when the Taliban were cutting of heads and putting the videos on the internet.

    But now, this is bad - how convienent for the local potilical games we have to play.
  307. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Don Adams - you keep digging yourself into a really extremist hole with your twisted ideology. Your stance is the most dangerous one for our troops on the ground that are doing your dirty work. You can't get anymore right-wing neo-con than you have. What happened to the Don Adams who claimed (on a daily basis) that you were the most fair and balanced person around?
  308. Terry Johnson from Burlington, Canada writes: Liberals, Conservatives...does it matter?! I am sick and tired hearing lies and I don't care which party is in power! For you conservative commentators, don't you realize if your party lies to you once they will lie again..and again - especially if they get away with it. (see any of our pathetic governments in the past). That's why we always need a strong opposition and maybe minorities are the way to go in this world now. For you liberal commentators, get off your partisan horse too...don't be pretend to be outraged! Instead let's encourage a debate on Afghanistan, on torture and on human rights. In summary, just as in any government there are cabinet ministers and their underlings who lie or bend the truth to protect themselves and/or their party. I don't for a minute believe that this is any more endemic in the Conservatives than in the Liberals, but Canadians want the truth...we can handle the truth!
  309. True Canadian from Hamilton, Canada writes: Nato forces in Afghanistan have been criticised for paid adverts on a radio station implying it is acceptable for farmers to grow opium poppies.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6589113.stm
  310. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: I have to add another comment here. While there are allegations of torture and abuse by the CF against detainees, there are other indicia of this sort of thing that people should be looking for.

    The pleading before the Federal Court by the CF, as I understand it, seeks to strip the application of the Charter in CF operations abroad. That not only applies to detainees but to CF members as well.

    The use of torture gives the torturer a sense of empowerment over others and that thirst is unquenchable. It is also indiscriminate. While it may have been directed at detainees, I guarantee that it will have been directed at CF members as well. For torture to thrive, there must be a low esteem for law, discipline and the value of humanity. I direct any investigators to the training practices of the CF and its leadership. Look at the CF Reading Room disclosures through the Access to Information Requests by disgruntled former members.

    Perhaps what is amazing about this story, as was amazing in the cases before the Tribunal (Furundzia in particular) is that there were personnel who were able to distinguish right from wrong and report the wrong doings or act in a sea of indifference. I know that there are persons like that in the CF and they will, at the end of the day, bring the CF and Canadians through this great cloud of darkness that the CF brass and the Conservatives have cast over our land.
  311. Jeremy F from Alberta, Canada writes: An informative editorial indeed, the only problem is we don't have any proof of these allegations, just stories and blacked out papers and a bunch of lefties who want to undermine the efforts in Afghanistan. Here we are focusing on the 'poor' Taliban prisoners who were once shooting at our soldiers or a threat to the people of Afghanistan. Why don't we focus on the fact that over the last 12 months 40 teachers have been killed by the Taliban. Or why don't we report the good news that our soldiers are doing in Kandahar by sacraficing themselves so inner-city girls can get a fair education like their boy counter-parts which was unthinkable under the Taliban. We have to remember who these Taliban monsters are and what they did in the past and what they still believe today and would like to bring back to Afghanistan. And the sad thing is you don't see the outrage against these thugs when they attack soldiers in crowded market places like the everyday outrage we see directed against the west from most people who want to undermine our effort. This isn't a political matter, you didn't see the conservatives getting angry when the Liberals started this mission so I don't know why so many people on this board make it political. It's a real shame we don't all stand together and support this effort. Sure, of course we should look into allegations of real torture, but we as a nation shouldn't let it blind us from the original missions goal. Don't forget, united we stand, divided we fall.
  312. R L from Calgary, Canada writes: Disgusting! What has this country become?!

    I cannot believe that some rabid partisans here are still supporting this! You support the government blatantly lying to Canadians, repeatedly? And on such a serious issue? Do you have no conscience whatsoever? In order to back the Harper government, you are willing to support the idea that Canada is knowingly complicit in a system of torture? War crimes?

    Take off your blind partisan goggles and get your heads checked! No Canadian, regardless of party affiliation, should be happy with what is going on here.
  313. billy bob from Timmins, Canada writes: Brian sexsmith i also want the criminals out however bringing taliban to Canada pretty much cinches it for me about Dion.Just when you think the insanity is over along comes that suggestion and from the leader of a national party which is probably the most insane thing I have ever heard. Maybe it was a trial balloon but I'm sure there are lawyers who are already thinking about it. It seems as if Canada needs a new political party that is one without the lies or crazy suggestions.
  314. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Harper's handling of this issue means that the conservatives don't see anything wrong with toruring and murdering anyone without a fair trial. All conservatives who claim they value freedom MUST demand accountabilty from their own leadership. Harper MUST be tried for treason.
  315. Steve S from Western Canada, Canada writes: Problem is?
  316. Don Adams from Canada writes: Frank, not getting into such a ridiculous discussion with you. What you're talking about has no relavance on what's happening in Afganistan today. You're just full of B.S.

    Chris Redford. Taliban already shoot at, bomb, kill, our troops. What the hell are you getting at? We capture, we just turn over. Taliban knows that. They know their people are taken care of when in our hands. It's just after they've left our hands something might happen. The Taliban know and respect this. We HAVE to turn the captives over according to the agreement Hillier made with the Leaders of Afganistan. So it's just no big deal. The communists and socialists on this board are sure trying to make it one though. Just not real Canadians.
  317. Christopher Redford from Canada writes: The Lib - Con thing doesn't work. Liberals signed an agreement about prisoners worse that didn't put the thought into it that the Brits or the Dutch put into their agreements. The Conservative Defence MInister apparently didn't even read it because they thought the Red Cross would take care of it. Now we have evidence they blacked out documents to protect their lying/ignorant butts.

    Crying `He started it' is just as lame in this case as it usually is at recesss with 5 year olds. Dumb and dumber is more like it.
  318. Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: Is anybody still reading these comments?

    Without a doubt, the Canadian presence in Afghanistan has got to be the most politically correct militiary operation in in the history of warfare. Certainly our human rights groups, the Liberal party, and the mainstream media watchdogs will make sure of that.

    Just take a look again at the lead sentence from this story: 'The Harper government knew from its own officials that prisoners held by Afghan security forces faced the possibility of torture, abuse and extrajudicial killing, The Globe and Mail has learned.'

    And good law-abiding Canadians everywhere are acting as if it is the Canadians who are doing the torturing and abusing. Reading this story, it sounds like the Honourable S. Harper himself went out to torture and excecute a bunch of innocent Afghan peasants.

    Is there no limit to the lengths Canadians will go to self-flagellate themselves? Hey - if we can't get anybody else to accuse us of committing war crimes ... lets accuse ourselves!
  319. Bill Thompson from Calgary, Canada writes: Mr Brian Haverlock. The cell is living in Calgary’s NE area. They are there for sure and for certain as in the course of my work I have had occasion to be exposed to some of the unprovoked and unreasoned hatred of all of us who happen to wear a uniform.
  320. Globe Trotter from Toronto, Canada writes: If we have to run every aspect of the Afghan government including their prisioner operations, what were the Liberals thinking when they got Canada into the Afghan mess. We're talking a different planet over there. Mr. Goofy (Dion) was in the Government that put us there. No Canadian should die in that backward, Islamic, warlord controlled, tribal battleground. It won't change and the West cannot win in that snakepit. So get Canada out. We need our troops to protect us from Muslim fundamentalists and Iranian and Saudi agents operating inside Canada.
  321. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Jake The Snake - Excellent summary of just how far from the Canadian mainstream today's conservatives are!!! Harper, you will never get a majority - we are thankful that your a$$-lickers come on the globe and mail everyday and remind us of why conservativism is simply wrong for Canada. Conservatives - Always on the wrong side of history.
  322. S D from Ottawa, Canada writes: And the Canuck NeoCons out there will find a way to blame this on the Liberals.

    Torture and abuse is just what the Taliban needs to get more recruits and cause more terrorism. Stooping to their level DOES NOT save lives, it causes more killing - just look at Iraq.

    I hope Dion has the balls to pursue a legal case against the Harper-crites. They should be held ACCOUNTABLE - afterall that's what they campaigned on.

    Stevie, do us all a favour and move to the US. You are an embarassment to Canada and Canadians.
  323. Dark Green from Canadian Warriors' Inn, Cuba writes: David Campbell from Grand bend, Canada writes: The Harper government discusts me on this issue. I can't believe what my Canada has become. I used to be a very proud Canadian. -- Comments like yours (there are a few here today) make me so very sad. Must be because I share your feelings. Just want to say we can 'redeem' ourselves, as Canadians, provided we get back to our decent, generous, humanistic traditional values. That we can do! All is not lost, as long as we save our souls. But we must first rid ourselves of all those who have the gall to claim leading us, and this country, while betraying those values, i.e. the best Canada and we, Canadians, have to offer. I'm off! Thanks all, for the conversation. Take heart. We'll prevail. We're there already, right now. History in the making.
  324. Erik D. from Canada writes: To Don Adams from Canada writes: '.. we DO have one of the most professional military's in the world. WHY? Because we let Armed Forces people run the Military and keep the damned politicians OUT of the decision making process. Once politicians get their hands on something, EVERYTHING gets screwed up!'

    Exactly, and that's exactly what Harper and Co have done (and yes the Libs as well before but to a lesser extent, they just ignored the military and underfunded it), they have put their political hands into the process and made it a political game. They have done so at each and every opportunity, and now we see they have even resorted to blatantly lying about. I mean O'Connor and Harper both had to know about this report, as otherwise they aren't doing their jobs and are totally incompetent.
    You talk about our soldiers; our soldiers are adhering to these rights and freedoms and do so proudly as it honours current and past soldiers. They see the need to be honest and civilized and are willing to and are dying for those rights and freedoms. Remember, even with Hitler, the allied forces honoured rights and freedoms, and held trials to determine the guilt and punishment. So why can't you support our troops by upholding to the same standards they do, to respect rights and freedoms? Could it be because your beloved Cons are under fire, caught lying, and you'll blindly defend them no matter what.

    Get real, no political party is ever perfect, they all have problems, their bad apples and their good, they all have good aspects as well. The good ones own up to their mistakes. Sadly that hasn't happened in Canada for a long time, and this 'new' government doesn't seem capable of being any different than the previous government in that regard.
  325. Bill Thompson from Calgary, Canada writes: IR: You are a classic barrack room lawyer. Such unqualified advice often got many a poor trooper in a world of hurt. While entertaining, you ought to keep your amateur opinions of the Canadian military legal system to yourself for the sake of the safety of our troops engaged against the enemy. They do not need bad advice at a time like this.
  326. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Jim Goodwin. Who wants to be a leader?

    That is a very insightful question and I note Don Adams picked up on it too, to his credit.

    Some of the most charasmatic of leaders have been the most notorious criminals of history: Hitler, Karadzic, Milosovec, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc. Were they good leaders? Yes. Were they evil men and women? Yes.
  327. lad lladie from Canada writes: You can send the best military anywhere in the world to fight but if it doesn't know excatly who the enemy is or what they're fighting for, going to war is only criminal waste. That's the problem with neocons, no sooner war is mentioned that guns are handed out, countries are occupied and people get 'wasted.' (I borrowed the word from McCain. Eventually fighting the unknown gets to be frustrating, frustrations leads to anger, anger leads to torture and at that point the best military in the world, is just another criminal occupier.
  328. F/A josquin from van, Canada writes: Mary O'hara, who wrote 'Too bad the G&M and many posters at this site care more about the rights of a bunch of head chopping fanatics '

    you frightening harpy, you frightened cow.

    Main Entry: har·py
    Pronunciation: 'här-pE
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural harpies
    Etymology: Latin Harpyia, from Greek
    1 capitalized : a foul malign creature in Greek mythology that is part woman and part bird
    2 a : a predatory person : LEECH b : a shrewish woman
    3 a scary, deluded, anti-social, screamin-mimi ,Canadian female card- carrying conservative
  329. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: I think Mr. Dion is right. If we cannot house detainees in Afghanistan and cannot turn them over to the Afghan authorites who will torture and abuse them, we have a moral duty and a legal duty to bring them to Canada and house them in a remote prison somewhere like Inuvik, Baffin Island or Victoria Island. At the same time we would augment our military presence in the arctic.

    Is that really a hair brained scheme when you think about it?
  330. Pete Kauchak from Cascadia, Canada writes: 'Ottawa doesn't want you to know'

    If Ottawa didn't want us to know this, the Globe and Mail would of never got their hands on this report. This is just sensationalizing.
  331. Christopher Redford from Canada writes: Don Adams - So far, no internet beheadings.

    And the British have already stated in their own document fiasco (leaked docs) that no long term miltary solution is possible against the Taliban. One day there will be Taliban Afghans at the table with those who are now turturing them. We might want to avoid doing anything that could worsen the civil war that will surely follow NATO's exit. Right now, we are simply handing people over to those who will be targetted for retribution when we're gone.

    Google: `Soviet pull-out, Najibullah'. The more things change, the more they stay the same!
  332. Diogenes the Cynic from Canadian Warriors' Beach, Greece writes: Steve S from Western Canada, Canada writes: Problem is? -- Problem is that you ask that very question, in the circumstances. This is Canada, not the Middle East.
  333. A Leading Edge Boomer from Canada writes: It is ironical that the federal government wants to spend $300 million on a Human Rights Museum to be based in Winnipeg. That money would probably be better spent on providing a humane detention center for the Afghans that our armed forces apprehend. Our concern for human rights would be better demonstrated to the world by looking after these prisoners properly, than by building a museum.
  334. R L from Calgary, Canada writes: I saw on CTV a video report about an Afghan man who was coming home to his house, but did not know that the area was supposed to be evacuated so that Canadian forces could search the houses... Canadian forces transferred him to a jail where he was repeatedly tortured, beaten, etc. so badly that his own brother could no longer recognize him when he returned home. Yet after all this, he forgave those involved. Wow, is this indicative of an evil madman? There was never any indication that this guy was a murderer, torturer, etc. that some of you blind fools are propagating... is this what you call justice?

    What's going on is a travesty.
  335. Steve D from Canada writes: I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: 'I think Mr. Dion is right. If we cannot house detainees in Afghanistan and cannot turn them over to the Afghan authorites who will torture and abuse them, we have a moral duty and a legal duty to bring them to Canada and house them in a remote prison somewhere like Inuvik, Baffin Island or Victoria Island. At the same time we would augment our military presence in the arctic.

    Is that really a hair brained scheme when you think about it?'

    Yes it is.

    Kill 'em all and let Allah sort them out.
  336. V ADS from North Vancouver, Canada writes: What Ottawa doesn't want us to know?

    Huh?

    Any reasonable person ought to know that Afghanistan is a war-torn, corrupt, impoverished country lacking properly functioning institutions.

    This common knowledge. Our goal should be to help the current government improve its own governance and institutions.
  337. elaine Berns from toronto, Canada writes: I could say how terrible this all is and it is! Am I surprised? I used to be able to tell my friends from other countries how we were different from the U.S. in our Human Rights, etc. I am truly embarrassed and angry that not only are these abuses going on, but that they are being covered up! For those of you who think this is acceptable because they are Taliban or others who have abused and tortured, then I feel sorry for you and hope that you are never one of those people or groups who become targets of our country and any others! What moral authority does any country have to preach to any other when we allow the same practices to go on in our or any other one's name! If I had my way, I would get rid of the whole bunch starting with Harper, but right now i would like a start with OÇonnor and Day! I have always had ambiguous feelings about our troops being in Afghanistan, but now that ambiguity is gone! The rational was that we were helping to create a more democratic government and that includes the rule of law and human rights. Now that that doesn't seem to be happening, I would like to see our men and women home as soon as possible without anymore dying for a flawed and hypocritical cause!
  338. Frank Rizzo from Halifax, Canada writes: Ahhh.. Don Adams doesn't want to get into a discussion about his previous statement that he would advocate killing children if that is what it would take to win. He says it's ridiculous - maybe he is disengaging because he just thought about exactly what it is that he said. I really hope so... I hope he has a good long think about what he is advocating for. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind Don. There was a fine gentleman named Mahatma Ghandi who thought that there was another way, a more powerful way to force change and that was by living up to the ideals that you espouse. You claim that we need to do what it takes to help win the war. Well what is the goal of this war? According to the government it is to surpress the Taliban and allow for the reconstruction and rebuilding of civil society in Afganistan. Exactly how does acting like the Taliban support that goal? There is a concept known as taking the high road and not lowering yourself to the same level as your opponents - this is what will showcase the true power of democracy to the Afgani people - not being complicit in torture. You seem to forget that there are multiple targets in this campaign - the ones holding the guns and the ones peering fearfully out from behind their shuttered windows and wondering when this nightmare will end. Allowing prisoners to be tortured firms up the resolve of the first group and loses the support of the second group and we need to win on BOTH fronts in order to have any hope of rebuilding the country. Not interested in taking part in this discussion Don? You seem to have a rather narrow view of the world with some doctrines that would fit in well with any number of genocide perpetrators from humanity's blemished past. Do whatever it takes to win you say. You may win the battle but you will lose the war.
  339. Anne Peterson from Canada writes: Is it true the Conservative party assigns people to monitor blogs and to post comments outlining the party line. What kind of honest comment is that. Propaganda is what that is.

    Torture is beyond the pale. Canada is a beacon of human rights to many around the world. What are we doing supporting such a bunch of thugs as makes up the government of Afghanistan.

    Haven't people figured out that the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan is just the biggest carpet bagging operation the world has ever seen. Millions and millions of dollars have found thier way into certain pockets. Not yours and mine and certainly not the soldiers. There is no idealism at all involved and as long as all of us ordinary people think there is wars will go on and young people will die for others profits. WAKE UP.

    Annie42
  340. Rodger Harding from Canada writes: FRIGHTEN, REASSURE, MANIPULATE...!

    This is the tried and tested formula controlling governments have used since time began...

    Hitler, Stalin, the Apartheid people to cite recent history are obvious examples...In our own time in those that believe they know better than the electorate or do not fully disclose their agendas do the same thing....

    Democracy has always been based on the people's wishes...Our friend George clearly believes he knows better than the people. Apparently so does Reform/Alliance Stevie and his band of muzzled men/women...

    Control...the pursuit of impossible, yet attractive certainty, always leads to implosion...stupidly burning up money, morale and reputation...

    Will we ...a supposedly thinking electorate... let this run its course...or nip it in the bud?
  341. Chief Bromden from Canada writes: Harper is a great champion of human rights. He said so himself.
  342. Frank Rizzo from Halifax, Canada writes: Ahhh.. Don Adams doesn't want to get into a discussion about his previous statement that he would advocate killing children if that is what it would take to win. He says it's ridiculous - maybe he is disengaging because he just thought about exactly what it is that he said. I really hope so... I hope he has a good long think about what he is advocating for. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind Don. There was a fine gentleman named Mahatma Ghandi who thought that there was another way, a more powerful way to force change and that was by living up to the ideals that you espouse. You claim that we need to do what it takes to help win the war. Well what is the goal of this war? According to the government it is to surpress the Taliban and allow for the reconstruction and rebuilding of civil society in Afganistan. Exactly how does acting like the Taliban support that goal? There is a concept known as taking the high road and not lowering yourself to the same level as your opponents - this is what will showcase the true power of democracy to the Afgani people - not being complicit in torture. You seem to forget that there are multiple targets in this campaign - the ones holding the guns and the ones peering fearfully out from behind their shuttered windows and wondering when this nightmare will end. Allowing prisoners to be tortured firms up the resolve of the first group and loses the support of the second group and we need to win on BOTH fronts in order to have any hope of rebuilding the country. Not interested in taking part in this discussion Don? You seem to have a rather narrow view of the world with some doctrines that would fit in well with any number of genocide perpetrators from humanity's blemished past. Do whatever it takes to win you say. You may win the battle but you will lose the war.
  343. Alberta Dennis Notso,redneck from Canada writes: History tells us ,torture, killing whatever is common in the middle east. Anyone with half a brain and a XXXX can figure that out, so what is all the squawking about. Common knowlege. What is all the screaming about here? Like what is new? Maybe we should ask the Taliban how they do it. Maybe they have detention centres like the US in Cuba,(health care and good food) you know secret stuff. Wake up folks!!
  344. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: To answer your question R L, what is going on is that we are participating in an Imperial war (again) to prop up a US installed Narco dictator that is brutalizing the population under NATO control. The population not under NATO control is fighting against them and us and we kill or capture them to be turned over to the Syndicate where they are tortured and disappeared. Its quite simple really.

    What's more this is an old story. Human rights abuses by Karzai's regime have been well documented for some time. Martin and Harper knew that long ago but both were so desperate to support Bush's war on terror that they have committed us to this sordid campaign. It illustrates a glaring flaw in our democracy rather well.. the power of the inner cabinet and their ability to overide the national interest, but I digress...

    Just because our politicians know what is going on it doesn't follow that they care. Now you make a choice at the next election which I'm hoping will be very very soon if some of that garbage we call our politicians could have the guts to table a NON CONFIDENCE MOTION we can let the public decide. Clearly most of us have higher standards than those we elected to represent us. Its time for a change.
  345. Wilf Kruggel from Onoway, writes: It's amazing how the 'whinners and bleeding hearts are so upset with the way the detainees are treated yet one will ever know how or what happened to the detainees captives. The answer is self explanitory, there never were any captives, the potential detainees destroyed whoever stood in their way so we should feel sorry for the detainees, hardly! Wilf.
  346. Christopher Redford from Canada writes: I disagree with those saying a military is best when it runs itself. The opposite is true - human rights are best respected when the military has a tight leash put on it by politicians who are not themselves soldiers, and where the judiciary can and will spank soldiers when they get out of line without fear of getting killed for their efforts.

    Most soldiers have made lousy politicians. This is because having to reconcile competing interests and compromise runs counter to acting like the world is black and white, with a single common interest which is not to be questioned.
  347. Pamela Achurch from Peterborough, On, Canada writes: The Liberals put us in Afghanistan to avoid joining the American lunacy in Iraq. Not only was it UN sanctioned, it appeared to be police action to unseat the Taliban govt. which supported Osama. It has obviously gained a life of its own. Had Harper not succumbed to Bush's flattery, we would be out of Kandahar now. We decry the lack of support from other NATO countries; but, in reality, are they not right in their inaction? It is we who have not learned the lessons of history in Afghanistan. This is an ideological war which cannot be won with guns and tanks. To prolong the agony of loss of Canadian lives in this nationalistic struggle is futile. I was very disappointed in the vote yesterday on the motion to end our involvement in Kandahar in 2009. That option is the sanest one on the floor at this time and the most realisitc. The NDP stance on this was ridiculous. The fact that our 'new' government is taking the torture issue so lightly is a sad sign of the corruption of Canadian values and an insult to all Canadians. We need to get rid of Harper and elect a Liberal govt that still has some understanding of what Canada is all about despite their faults. Cancel that tank order while you are at it too..........
  348. Brian Havelock from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Bill Thompson from Calgary, Canada glad to hear that. I take it your head hasn't been detached yet. As for your other comment unless you are a cream puff suck it up and move on.
  349. Ron Cobb from Victoria, Canada writes: Bill Thompson, where did you hear this garbage, from Ron Anders maybe, he advocates Nelson Mandela is a terrorist.
  350. Rick McNaulty from Calgary, Canada writes: Hello Pamela Achurch - Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately for you it seems Pamela Canada does know what it stands for. Your desire for a Liberal government proves what values you believe in and they do not line up with real Canadians. My guess is O'Connor couldn't care less what Lefty clowns think about military hardware purchases. My guess is you wouldn't understand why you only understand Liberal good Conservative bad. Pathetic.
  351. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    I have read many comments from obvious Liberal and NDP supporters only criticizing this government and being appauled, yet WHAT is YOUR solution.

    A moronic Dion solution like bring them to Canada where our prisons are already overflowing, where they will become our new immigrants when all is said and done? How stupid is that!

    What do you do with the POW's? An don't give me not to pass them on to the Afghan authority. Solutions please! And telll me about the COSTS to these solutions? Also tell me how these solutions affect our troops!

    I anxiously await!
  352. PJ Robertson from Canada writes: R. Carriere from the Maritimes: '[T]he government cover-up trumps [the prisoner] situation . . . .This is not a conventional war.' YES AND YES. So, what what are we doing out there now fighting an unconventional war with conventional forces, with the promise of a huge order of tanks to follow? What do we do with a government that has forfeited its trust and persists in risking the lives and reputation of its military through wooden-headed policy? Canadians and Canada's military deserve better.
  353. c rob from Canada writes: Why the debate everyone? The question is simple - do we condone or reject torture? It is that easy. There is absolutely no middle ground on this issue - Do we as a nation and collective group of citizens support torture? Yes or no.

    What is not simple, however, is finding a process than can be adopted among our NATO allies and supported by the UN which permits autonomy for Afghan officials while adhering to human rights. Isn't easy but well worth the effort unless, of course, as certain posters suggest, torture can be condoned during conflict. (I really never thought I'd read these lines from a Canadian, but oh well......)

    The lying and cover up on this issue has been done on Harper's watch. He and his merry band would be wise to simply shut up, suck it up, and fix the problem. He should know that if he doesn't fix this and if a single Canadian soldier should ever be threatened with complicity in torture, he can throw in the towel politically. Simple.
  354. Harold Uhlman from Lunenburg, NS, writes: Good morning Don. Everyone getting you stirred up. I understand how you feel. War makes good people do bad things. I suppose that is no excuse but at home we don't know what it's like to have one's life constantly at risk and see your fellow soldiers killed by the enemy. We know too they are ruthless in their treatment of those they capture. However, I have a couple of concerns with the treatment of detainees, which I expect are not called prisoners of war to get around the Geneva Convention or something. First, when we do as they do, or comply with what they do, it makes us like them. I don't want us to be like them. Secondly, do we know for sure all are Taliban fighters? We have to find out. At home we have cases of wrongful conviction after years of court battles. Lastly, I just can't stand it when I see young American soldiers serving long prison sentences for their abuses of prisoners. They had no choice but to serve while the politicians had a choice as to whether to send them or not. Their lives are ruined because they served and then made a bad decision under the stress of war. The politicians are off scott free. The young soldiers lose their lives in prison and the politicians only lose votes, if that. Afghanistan is the same. I just cringe at the thought of any of our soldiers being tried because they are seen to be accomplices in torture of prisoners by handing them over. They have no choice with what they do with prisoners. The politicians do. They would stand trial. The politicians wouldn't. Let's do everything we can do to avoid even a possibility of that. A second lastly, it would help if the government would just tell the truth about what is going out. Denials and blacked our documents don't really help diffuse the situation. Perhaps they don't know. Then find out and make it known regardless of the optics politically. I don't think it will go away without everyone being honest.
  355. Rodger Harding from Canada writes: Well said Toby!!
  356. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    For those of you we think the Liberal Party is lilly clean on this like Pamela Achurch from Peterborough-let me remind you...:

    In the fall of 2005, Liberal Party Member Graham spoke across Canada, warning Canadians that the Kandahar mission would be costly.

    Graham said: 'Our troops will be engaged in a much riskier and more dangerous mission than they were engaged in, in Kabul.'

    Graham said: 'From a Canadian perspective, our mission in Afghanistan is totally consistent with Canada's new international and defence policies; in fact, it is the first and most significant tangible expression of those policies in action. Our role in Afghanistan is also quintessentially Canadian: We are helping rebuild a troubled country and we are giving hope for the future to a long-suffering people. This is a clear expression of our Canadian values at work.'

    Graham said: 'So when I hear voices who call for the withdrawal of our troops, who suggest that we are engaged in a war there against Islam ... I say: 'Let them talk to the Afghans, Afghans who are Muslims themselves, Afghans who want us there to help them transform their country' ...'
  357. Not the Alliance from In my opinion, The Harper Gov't is Still Incompetent, Canada writes: For anybody making the argument that torture is necessary evil please comment on why Harper would then lie about it. Why would he not make the same case that you're trying to make?

    Is it leadership to lie about something? If so, is this lie the tip of the iceberg?
  358. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Graham said: 'Canadians should be under no illusion; Kandahar is a very complex, challenging and dangerous environment and mission. The part of Afghanistan we are going to is among the most unstable and dangerous in the country.

    Indeed, that is why we have been asked to go there and why we are going there.'
  359. Harold Uhlman from Lunenburg, NS, writes: Hi Rob. I don't know what to do with them. I think a useful start would be to know what actually is happening and to make that known to the people of Canada. Somehow that has to be determined. Perhaps then a decision could be made. Eventually the truth will be known. I know it seems impossible to meet in the middle as some are saying the detainees should be killed and others they should not be given to Afghan authorities. I wish we could not make this political and try to garner votes with such a deadly mission.
  360. Rodger Harding from Canada writes:
    Rick McNaulty: Gosh! I did not know that believing in Democracy meant being part of the 'extreme Left'!!!

    ...Nor did I realize that criticizing the Harper government for censoring documents to keep the electorate in the dark meant disrespect for the military...(actually I was a proud naval officer in my youth ...)

    Your words underscore my earlier point...by tossing a smoke-grenade perhaps you hope thinkers will disperse leaving the way open for non-thinkers to bask in the illusion of safety...
  361. Humphrey Pennyworth from Canada writes: Like most Canadians, my gut reaction to torture is that it should never be used. However upon reflection, I think there are circumstances where physical or psychological pressure, can be used. In war, even though there have been attempts at defining some rules of conduct, these rules are often ignored or are unrecognized by either or both of the warring factions. If one side has an abundance of 21st century resources such as warplanes, helicopters, the best of artillery, etc, and is winning, then that side is more prone to observing those rules. However if your side has none or very little of those things, are more or less losing, and feel strongly about your cause, especially if the war is on your own turf, then rules mean nothing to you. You are going to do whatever it takes to defeat the enemy. ANYTHING. That is why the Taliban fight the war their way, suicide bombings being their weapon of choice. To them, the rules and the Geneva Convention are a joke. When it comes to torture, if someone is captured who you think has important information, such as where and when the next suicide bombing will take place, or where the next Taliban offensive will occur, how do you get that person to give you that information if he will not cooperate? That information could save the lives of perhaps hundreds of women and children, not to mention the lives of our own soldiers. Should torture be used as a last resort? In such a case I would say 'yes'. But there must be a very high degree of probability that the detainee does in fact have the information that you are seeking. It can't just be some person who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And there must be restrictions on the methods.
  362. Toby Maloney from Winnipeg, Canada writes: The war planners know that some Canadians will only support this war if they see it as a step toward peace and order in Afghanistan. That's why they had to censor the line about how human rights deteriorated in 2006 because it shows the futility of that goal. There is no government of Afghanistan, just warlords and gangs.

    The hidden agenda behind all the little lies is that Canada's New Government only wants to be in Afghanistan for the influence they believe it will win them with the U.S. They can't be straight with us about that, because we don't think that's a good enough reason for death and destruction.

    Most of us don't care about Conservative or Liberal, it's about our country and its values, so when the government leaders lie, about torture OR corruption, it's time for them to be replaced.
  363. lad lladie from Canada writes: R.L. The problem of pro-torturers here is that they accept the most idious war crimes committed by their side because they refuse to conceive the enormity of what their side is doing. The pro-torturers are so used to accuse other sides as being'barbaric' 'uncivilized' 'butchers' 'inferior beings' that when their side do it, the pro-torturers license themselves to torture in the name the 'cruel religious fanatics'. In other words instead of having Afghans practicing our democratic and civilized principles, we take to their 'barbaric' 'uncivilized' principles conceding, therefore, the superiority of their system. That's the reason the Harper's government tried to hide what they knew about torturing the enemy.
  364. Erik D. from Canada writes: To Alberta Dennis Notso: From the mouth of Harper, 'we are there fighting for rights and freedoms'. Harper says he's big on rights and freedoms, he talks it big, but it seems like he can talk the talk, but he can't walk the talk. If we are fighting for these rights, we are doing so against the forces who don't want rights and freedoms, that is the Taliban, and we run a foul of the American supported War Lords who also don't want rights and freedoms. The average Afghan wants rights and freedoms. If the Americans stop supporting the War Lords and support a true democratic element, that would make the fight more difficult, but actually winable. As it is now, its not winable.
  365. Jake The Snake from Canada writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes: 'have read many comments from obvious Liberal and NDP supporters only criticizing this government and being appauled, yet WHAT is YOUR solution.'

    Coalition POW camps were basic human rights can be monitored.

    R. Carriere from Maritimes: 'And telll me about the COSTS to these solutions? Also tell me how these solutions affect our troops! '

    Costs? whatever it takes and remember properly planned all coalition countries would have to cost share. If the rest of the coalition don't want to then lets leave, it's a principled stand. What price would you put on Canada's reputation?

    How this solution would effect the troops? For the better because they wouldn't be seen as supporting torture, thus winning more 'hearts and minds' of the common afghani citizen, it would be easier for us to achive the stated objectives with them on are side don't you think?
  366. neil shea from Canada writes: Canada's 'Pentagon Papers'........ now which journalist wants to be our Daniel Ellsberg to expose our 'Richard Nixion' PM.

    This is gonna be real interesting, all that is missing are the mass demonstrations on the street but who knows............
  367. Michael H from Edmonton, Canada writes: I guess Harper's little propaganda speech yesterday about the opposition parties 'supporting the Taleban' by taking their word on torture without proof is looking a little silly right now. I guess the bigger question is how many other lies are we being told? Someone needs to be held responsible for this.
  368. James Tod from Vancouver, Canada writes: We need to know which government offices had access to this report, and which MP's know about it. This paints a very dangerous picture for Canada, if our government had this information and our Prime Minister continues as though he does not.

    How can we help build a democratic nation, if we do not adhere to our basic principles. Torture is wrong. It is really that simple.
  369. Zach Fitzgerald from Toronto, Canada writes: im sure the govt knows whats going on. This should really come as no surprise. Its no different in Iraq and in the CIA secret prisons. I thought that the troops were there to 'restore democacy.' Sure doesnt sound like it.
  370. Mark Orr from Toronto, Canada writes: So this is the new level of integrity that Harpo promised to bring to goverment. He made a big stink about adscam, and now his government has been caught red handed trying to cover up murder and torture??! If one is willing to condone murder and torture, what possible morality can one claim to have? We have a PM that is essentially guilty of being an accessory to murder??!!! God help us!!
  371. Joel Canada from Calgary, Canada writes: IN PRAISE OF THE GLOBE: it's unbelieveable to me that contributors to this conversation are damning the G&M for disclosing the horrible treatment of Afghan detainees by the locals - and then labelling the G&M as pro-Liberal or some stupid thing!
    Hey, this is a 100% Harper/O'Connor mess - they're in denial, they're lieing to the Canadian public, they're attempting this cover-up. The G&M are doing us a service in bringing this matter to our attention. Would you prefer to live in Russia? Iran? Zimbabwe? They don't enjoy freedom of the press.
    Here's a thought: Why don't the complainers about the G&M go gnash their collective teeth on the National Post forum? Sorry, they don't have one. Probably because Conrad Black boned the Aspers so badly on the deal they won't be able to afford one for about forty years.
  372. john chuckman from Canada writes: Thank you, Globe and Mail, for doing the important work of reporting this story. It is a valuable effort for all Canadians.

    As I've written before, when you do the devil's work....

    It is simply a brutal, shameful fact the U.S. has been completely indifferent to thousands of prisoner deaths in Afghanistan.

    Again, something no one who loves justice and freedom should forget, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, openly advocated that all prisoners there be killed or walled away forever.

    But then, Rumsfeld also shook hands with Saddam Hussein while that tyrant was using chemical and biological weapons on tens of thousands of Iranians.
  373. hello from BC from Canada writes: I think you people care more about terrorists than about doing what is right. Do you honestly think that they care about you? Give your head a shake!!!!
  374. b mac from Canada writes: Thank goodness for the Toronto Star and their story on Liberal Hypocracy. (The truth eventually gets printed.)
  375. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: That slamming sound you heard was the lid closing on the Conservative election writ that was mooted for this spring.

    I R, wherever you are, you knew this was coming, didn't you? You rascal! ;)
  376. sean bob from Ozark, Canada writes: Imagine During WWII if we had decided we didn't wish to hold Nazi POW's, or turn them over to the Americans/Brits, or the Soviets. I guess we should have released them or assimilated them and lost, much more humane. The build-up now is similar to what is was then. Today's Neville Chamberlains will do no better than the real Mr.Chamberlain did. Peace through appeasement is your delusion.
  377. gary wilson from Calgary, writes: Nice work mini-Bush. Wanted us to join the invasion of Iraq, denied global warming existed, now he's covering up our country's responsibility in torture. Yeah ... this is the direction we wanna go ...
  378. William Hanlon from London, Ontario, Canada writes: This is outrageous! Our government has just been caught lying to us and trying to cover it up. Why? So that we'll keep our troops in this hellish place doing the dirty work of a corrupt regime, possibly subjecting themselves to future accusations of war crimes. How despicable to put our soldiers in this situation!
  379. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: My word, only 11:00AM EDT and almost 400 posts on this topic. I'm thinking that Canadians really do care about Canada upholding its obligations under the Geneva Convention and Convention Against Torture. Bless their hearts.
  380. D Young from Canada writes: 'This is not a good day for Canada and Canada's reputation. We are all ashamed of this behavior - or we should be. ' As I recall, the prisoners said that the Canadians treated them very well and had nothing but good things to say about how they were treated by Canadians. It was how they were treated by their own people that they wanted Canada to stop. Canada reputation is still something to be very proud of. Perhaps Canada can put more pressure on the Afgani to treat their own better - use our influence, but it is still their country not ours.
  381. aloysuis paczjoskteyochuk from Canada writes: History keeps repeating itself and still as human beings we have learned nothing.
  382. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Harold: Good Morning

    We are on the same page with this one.

    1) I despise dishonesty and cover-up no matter what Party, and I don't know about you, but I am tired of this consistent behaviour of politicians of ALL stripes! ALL of them!

    As for the detainees-prisoners-insurgents, whatever the heck we want to call them:

    2) We can't kill these guys

    3) We can't give them to the Afghan Authorities from what we now know

    4) We can't bring them back here

    So as I mentioned, what to do?

    Unfortunately, we really got sucked into this 'war' or whatever mission we were led to believe, based on fauly premises and information. Based on what I have uncovered over the last 6 years, but more so during the last 3 years, let's just say we shoiuldn't even be debating Afghanistan because we should NOT even be there!
  383. Rodger Harding from Canada writes: Should I ever land up in detention unjustly or be treated in an uncivilized way I would welcome someone taking up my cause...I would find little comfort in academic rationale....

    I salute all those who care and are willing to rise above self-interest or one dimensional thinking...

    Surely we are on this earth to evolve...not to be mired in the law of the jungle ...The Canadian example to date blinks as a beacon for the oppressed world-wide...I pray we can preserve that enviable status
  384. E Germain from Spruce Grove - Edmonton Spruce Grove - CanadaAB., Canada writes: Well , what did anyone really expect ? . This is the real ' STEVE ' ( W's buddy ) Harpo < I 'll borow that ...I like it .

    When you sleep with dogs , you get flee's . Closely associate yourself with the most disgraced president in American history and you get ...... THIS . Dont let the rest of Canada down Ontario ....keep this guy ' STEVE ' ( W's buddy ) from the majority he wants to begin the remaking Canada in W's image .

    This is the real Harpo that the Reform/Alliance /Republican: Condervativesare desperatly trying to hide .
  385. Alpha Sigma from Canada writes: Since an article regarding the Governor General yesterday indicated that the GG is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, does that make the GG accountable for this?
  386. Trillian Rand from Canada writes: The Afghan secret police are torturing Afghan citizens. Unless you think everyone in Afghanistan is a terrorist, it is wrong to say that only terrorists or members of the Taleban are being tortured.

    If you condone torture elsewhere, would you also approve of it in Canada? Would you like to know you might have electrodes attached to your body if you were wrongly accused or simply because the police thought you knew something? If a police state run by a band of sadists is good enough for Afghanistan, why wouldn't it be good enough for us?

    Oh, right. There only terrorists, aren't they?
  387. b mac from Canada writes: Just lies and more darn lies from the opposition parties. The Liberal gave the military 15 minutes notice that they were going into the toughest part of the fighting in Afghanistan. The Conservatives have it right. Protect our soldiers at all cost. The Liberals want the terrorist broght to Canada, were they can claim political asylum and then released into the streets of Montreal. Toronto and Vancouver. The Liberals have no shame.
  388. Michael Tripper from Vancouver, Canada writes: Ah yes the new government of Canada - say isn't this the same gang who can't get the passport office running correctly?
  389. E Germain from Spruce Grove - Edmonton Spruce Grove - CanadaAB., Canada writes: Richard Roskel ............B.......I........N.........G........O ! Bullseye ! .

    bravo bravo ...for the most acurate post out of some 400 ...........

    Good job SIR .
  390. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Jake The Snake from Canada: I like what you suggest! Thanks for your comment WWF person. Because we are there, it is food for thought and probably the right thing to do.

    PJ Robertson from Canada writes: .
    So, what what are we doing out there now fighting an unconventional war with conventional forces, with the promise of a huge order of tanks to follow? What do we do with a government that has forfeited its trust and persists in risking the lives and reputation of its military through wooden-headed policy? Canadians and Canada's military deserve better. AGREED!!!! Except for the updating of our equipment that is necessary.
  391. garlick toast from mill village, Canada writes: we'd better try some of that'freedom&democracy'at home before we attempt to export it to afganistan.i thought democracy would preclude standing in the h.o.c. and telling bald-faced lies in question period or breaking international agreements regarding the treatment of p.o.w.s
  392. Richard Keefer from Omemee, writes: This goes past ideological fixations, and into the question of whether two of our national party leaders are psychopaths, unable to tell right from wrong, and who will stop at nothing to get what they want. Neither Harper nor Layton see anything wrong in the torture of Afghans, nor anything contradictory with their crusade to bring their two kinds of Canadian values to Afghanistan.// Deeply instilled in fundamentalists such as Harper is the belief that anyone who is not born again will go to hell. Real hell begins on earth for the poor souls captured by our troops. The Alliance-Conservatives are psychopathically incapable of hearing the screams of the Muslims they have handed over for torture. Fundamentalists don't stop at damning people of other faiths. In their eyes, even mainstream churchgoers are not born again, and will go to hell. These fundamentalist hate-machines would like to damn all kinds of other groups, and they're just waiting for the chance.// Harper sees no contradiction in using Layton to divide the vote and generate confusion, as an agent of Canada's own looming tribulation. After all, Layton shows the signs of someone who is just as committed to his goals, and who on his path to ideological purity, saw nothing wrong with living in subsidized housing and depriving those in real need. With a fundamentalist majority, and the cleansing of our laws, this braying fool can wander around as though he was hit by a truck, perhaps to discover there is no honour between psychopaths.// If you're thinking of voting for Harper, think again. Take Harper away from the cameras, and he is a flabby chickenhawk fundamentalist, who wears women's makeup. He's not a westerner, but a Toronto-boy with issues.
  393. Brian C from Canada writes:
    'What Ottawa doesn't want you to know'??? I thought headlines like this were reserved for tabloid trash. Thanks G&M for breaking that barrier and killing any remaining thought of responsible journalism.

    In the article we read that the G&M's copy of the report (I can't see anywhere in the article about where they obtained the copy. Hmmm, I wonder why that is????) talks about 'allegations' of torture, etc... Nothing new here. We knew all along there have been allegations of torture coming from the people who were detained for torturing and killing civilians, mainly women and children. And we're supposed to stand on our heads because of it??? PLEASE! Give me a break!
  394. Alberta Dennis Notso,redneck from Canada writes: Is there a single poster here that actually believed that torture was not common in this conflict? If you did then think again because you have zero knowlege about the middle east. Even our own Canadian Military as recently as Somalia engaged in torture and killing (remember when they caught a skinny kid stealing into their camp and they beat him to death). For you folks that knock Bush and Harper, try knocking all the leaders of all the countries that engage in war. Irregardless of political party any decision to engage in a conflict has the chemistry of torture and killing built right in. My suggestion is stop complaining, it goes with the territory.
  395. mike sty from Canada writes: Ethical
    Accountability
    Responsability
    Honesty
    Trustworthy
    Credibility
    Morals
    International Law
    Global Treaties

    All words the Harper gov't knows nothing about.
    Unfortunately there are no pictures in dictionaries to help them.
  396. passive aggressive from Ottawa, Canada writes: What? who has suggested the terrorists be brought back to Canada? This is all just crazy. Our soldiers are doing great work in Afghanastan and are paying a price. Assuming these allegations are true, surely it can't help their struggle that there are people who know that our troops (under orders) turn captured rebels over to abusive authorities. Stating that I don't want people subjected to torture - even terrorists - even the masterminds behind 9-11 - does not make me a bleeding heart - it makes me a humanist. Their apparent disregard for human life and international protocol should not be an excuse for us to ignore our international obligations and sense of humanity.
  397. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: The torture of the prisoners is necessary to obtain vital information for the safety of our troops. I would be very upset and angry if they were not interogating/torturing the prisoners. War is not pretty, so you Liberal sissies should just be quiet and let our people get on with the job at hand.
  398. Wayne Dickson from Halifax, writes: The real issue here is not the nature of the agreement with the Afghanis, the knowledge or ignorance of officials with respect to what the Afghans would do with the prisoners, nor how we should resolve the issue. What is the important thing here is that the government...specifically the PM and Defense Minister lied to Canadians, knew they lied and continued to do so. Whether the americans do it, whether the Liberals always did it, is not the issue. This present government lied to us...plain and simple....even simple people can see that.
  399. Alberta Dennis Notso,redneck from Canada writes: E Germaine from Spruce grove, your stupid comments about fleas suggests you have the brainpower of one . Read my previous posting and try and get informed!!
  400. William Hanlon from London, Ontario, Canada writes: R. Carriere writes: 'I despise dishonesty and cover-up no matter what Party, and I don't know about you, but I am tired of this consistent behaviour of politicians of ALL stripes! ALL of them!'

    I guess that means no one is ever to blame, eh? Let's not hold our present government accountable for lying and trying to cover it up since it's just par for the course. They all do it, gosh darn, boy will be boys and all that. Your comment here, R. Carriere, is cynical beyond belief, given the seriousness of what our government was trying (extremely clumsily) to hide from us. We're not talking about some missing cash here, we're talking about blood on our hands and the endangering of our troops. To paint all politicians with the same brush implies that this level of deception is inevitable and thus somehow excusable. It isn't. It simply cannot be.
  401. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: While I'm a fierce opponent of Canada making war in Afghanistan, I have zero interest in the partisan aspects of this issue. I don't currently vote for any of the major political parties. (And fiscally-speaking, I'm a conservative.)

    Nevertheless, one must marvel at the political stupidity displayed by the Conservative government on this issue. Simple, expedient fixes were available for the flawed prisoner transfer agreement. Yet rather than promptly make a simple change, the PRIME MINISTER of Canada stood up in the house and deceived Canadians on a matter of grave importance.

    Consider further: NATO collectively spends an estimated $20 billion annually on their military efforts in Afghanistan. NATO soldiers in that country number in the tens of thousands. NATO has committed to staying in Afghanistan 'as long as it takes'. But we can't build a POW camp to make sure that innocent civilians and suspected Taliban we round up are treated humanely? Therefore, innocent civilians and Taliban alike are tortured and murdered by Afghan security forces! Can you think of a better way to sabotage our own efforts in that country?

    It's gone beyond incompetence into the realm of criminal negligence.
  402. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Taliban 'torturers' not wanted here: Day Afghan prisoners Kevin Dougherty, CanWest News Service, with files from National Post Published: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 QUEBEC - Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day denounced Afghanistan's Taliban forces yesterday as murderous torturers and said Canadian troops will continue to transfer detainees to Afghan authorities. 'We want the Taliban to stay in Afghanistan ? We are going to insist that their human rights are respected, but we don't want them to come here,' he said. 'We don't support [Liberal leader Stephane] Dion's idea of bringing Afghan prisoners here.' In his speech to counterterrorism experts from Canada and the United States, Mr. Day noted that Western powers equipped Islamic fundamentalists in the 1980s with modern weapons to drive the Soviets from Afghanistan. He said the Taliban, one of those Islamic groups, 'wanted a better country' and were 'extremely zealous' in cracking down on corruption. But drawing on the allegory of George Orwell's novel Animal Farm, Mr. Day said once in power the Taliban wielded 'unbridled force.' '[They had] no understanding of the rule of law, no understanding of the need for an independent judiciary, certainly no understanding of the democratic process where people can choose their leadership,' he said. 'These people have no compunction about machine-gunning, mowing down little children. They have no compunction about decapitating or hanging elderly women. They have no compunction about the most vicious types of torture you can imagine.' And he said Canadian and U.S. troops, defending crews drilling wells and building schools, are shot at by the Taliban. (tbc)
  403. D.A. M from Canada writes: Comments by conservative posters such as 'yawn' and 'this story has been flogged to death' show their complete ignorance- this story is new. How- the story is about the Harper Government's not only knowing about all this- something they previously feigned ignorance on- but also on the government's censorship of the report. Yes, they lied to us. Certainly not surprising, as many note. But blatant and now, fully exposed to us.
  404. Joel Canada from Calgary, Canada writes: Dear Prime Minister Harper,

    We don't need another Putin: So start telling us the truth about Afghanistan. Thanks.

    Joel
  405. Brian C from Canada writes: To Trillian Rand who writes: 'The Afghan secret police are torturing Afghan citizens. Unless you think everyone in Afghanistan is a terrorist, it is wrong to say that only terrorists or members of the Taleban are being tortured.'

    So you're stating for a fact that Canadians are apprehending ordinary Afghan citizens and turning them over to the Afghan police so that they can be tortured. And you're stating for a fact that Afghan police are torturing ordinary citizens, even though the completely unbiased G&M article states that there are allegations of torture, not proof of torture.

    And those poor, poor Taleban. They're not really terrorists. They're just people like you and me that just want to be loved and hugged, right?

    I allege that you're pathetic. So, it must be true. Right?
  406. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: He admitted there have been difficulties convincing Afghan authorities that Taliban prisoners, who are questioned up to 72 hours by Canadian troops before they are turned over to the Afghans, should have humane treatment. 'This is a priority for us,' the Minister said. 'In many ways this is a new area for them, the proper care and respect for prisoners, for instance. 'For some people, that's kind of a new concept. 'And they're learning it. It's not moving as quickly as we would have hoped, but progress is being made, and we are going to continue to insist that human rights of everybody, even people who are being detained, are respected.' The Conservatives have been under fire in the Commons to stop transferring prisoners, after a number complained of harsh treatment by Afghan authorities. Mr. Dion briefly suggested flying the prisoners to Canada, before backtracking. Opposition leaders have instead demanded Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor be replaced. Prime Minister Stephen Harper again ignored the demands, telling the House of Commons that Canadian military leaders discuss treatment of prisoners regularly with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission and have not been informed of any problems. 'I think what's disgraceful is to simply accept the allegations of what some Taliban suspects say at face value,' he said. 'That's not appropriate.' © National Post 2007 Source: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=db34d354-90e9-44e4-81a2-68856c1722d3&k=73042
  407. Rodger Harding from Canada writes: To Albert Notso: Would it 'go with the territory' if you or someone you loved was tortured etc....justifiably or not...?

    I didnt think so....!

    Delinquents have one set of rules for themselves and another for others...

    Evolving people try harder than just mouthing smug self-righteousness ...
  408. David Blott from Moncton, NB, Canada writes:

    I don't condone, but can understand that in a situation like Afghanistan there may be indicidents of prisoners being abused. It would not be reasonable to hold either Harper of O'Connor responsible for that. There is however, no excuse for them to then stand up in the House of Commons and blatantly lie about it. Today's story is just another in a long list of examples of poor leadership on the part of 'Canada's New Government'.
  409. Ob Server from Toronto, Canada writes: Whats the difference between Harper & Bush?
    Nothing.....in all respects.
    Remember that when you go vote.
  410. mike sty from Canada writes: Can Harper spell transparency??

    T R A N S P A R E N C Y
  411. Duncan Munro from Langley BC, Canada writes: jeff, if the RCMP arrest you by mistake (more likely with cause), I hope they don't take your advice, since your denials will only spur them on as they water board you...Canada refused to torture Nazi soldiers in WW2 but now we are being told by LIBERAL/CONSERVATIVE supporters that torture is OK...Shameful!
  412. Rick McNaulty from Calgary, Canada writes: Yawn
  413. Rodger Harding from Canada writes: Rick McNaulty: 'scum'???? having a different opinion makes someone scum? Clearly (as per your previous comments) you would see free speech as ultra left policy...
  414. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    William Hanlon from London, Ontario: Hello! I am not quite sure what your point is! I have clearly stated my disdain for this situation and certainly do not paint all politicians with the same brush. As for your comment, 'We're not talking about some missing cash here...' that was the flavour of the day during the last decade-please do not try and justify a Liberal Party who screwed canadians in every way possible. As for being cynical....why shouldn't I be? Because Mr. Dion said so?
  415. jamie yavis from bc, Canada writes: Just what is going on here. Are we living in some type of autocratic society hidden by the mock veil of democracy.

    And if so, who is really governing the country? The Consevative haven't been in power long enough to entrench themselves to all levels of the Foreign Affairs ministry.

    And there has been problems for years before the Conservatives to getting information under the Freedom to Information Act, but why do they aid and abet the same type of behavior?
  416. Satori Zen from Warriors' Land, Canada writes: R. Carriere: 'we shoiuldn't even be debating Afghanistan because we should NOT even be there!' -- Mr. Carriere, you keep asking what we should do. Given we should not even be there, as you write, well let's call it a mistake, apologize to the Afghans, offer compensation for the damage we caused there (material and human), and LET'S GET THE H..L OUT OF THERE! Thanks for suggesting the solution, Mr. Carriere.
  417. Andrew M from Ottawa, Canada writes: The general public doesn't care.
  418. Keith Petreman from Ottawa, Canada writes: Truly some idiotic postings from the pro-torture crowd. Could someone please explain to me how torture serves any valuable purpose in any circumstance, including in war? Many of you state that since torture is so common in the middle east and has been going on for so long, we really shouldn't be worried about it. How has that been working out for the middle east? Do you think maybe that has something to do with all the terrorism that comes from that part of the world? Can people even point to one single example where torturing someone has led to getting information that was used to prevent an actual attack? I'm talking about reality here, not some hypothetical situation. Rick McNaulty, I award you with the George Bush Jr. Medal of Invincible Stupidity. With your blind faith in your ideological leaders, you display the arrogance and hypocricy which is ruling the world today. By labeling anyone that disagrees with you as a 'bleeding heart' or 'radical leftist', you display the exact same intolerance as the terrorists you claim to be against. Just chalk another one up to the 'corrupt Canadian electorate', I guess. I'd also like to see your licence for determining who is and who is not a 'real Canadian'. Obviously you think that supporting a government run by drug cartels and other criminal gangs is the way to bring about democracy. Rick, you should put your muscle where your mouth is and go and fight in Afghanistan, or you should go climb back under your bridge because that's where trolls belong. I still support the Afghanistan mission but we have to practice what we preach if it is ever to be successful.
  419. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: While I deplore the way the government of Canada has behaved, I wish to sincerely COMMEND members of the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan for their humane treatment of prisoners while in CF hands. Time and again, those who said they were tortured by Afghan authorities said that they were well-treated by Canadian soldiers prior to being transferred.

    My belief in the underlying decency of the CF and its members is unshaken. I believe that CF members sincerely wish to make a positive difference in Afghanistan. They've been given an impossible mission, a mission that I will never stop criticizing; but they do their best regardless.

    One can only imagine how moral, decent CF soldiers must have felt handing over Afghans, that they knew full well may have been innocent, to the torturers in the NSD. I consider it a betrayal on the part of the Canadian government that they put our soldiers in a position like that.
  420. E Germain from Spruce Grove - Edmonton Spruce Grove - CanadaAB., Canada writes: Ahhhhh at last I hear from Albert Dennis Nutso - our American correspondent . Another Canadian so concerned about our image abroad . We will have to have an election to get rid of the fleas .

    How can we spout ' we're here to help you ' .... 'we believe in the Geneva convention ' - 'don't torture our captured soldiers ' to them Mr Nutso . Now you've got fleas .

    As you can see ALbertnutso there are more posters here than for almost anything I can remember .......this means that there are alot of Canadians concerned about how Canada is seen by the rest of the world. We do not want to be twinned with the Americans as the most hated disrespected nation on earth . We can not preach civility if we do not practice it ourselves . I can see how foreign ( such a dirty word to use to you eh ) this thinking is to you .....when your solution to every problem is ...nuke'em ,gas 'em , hang 'em ...fry'em or as in this case ....... torture ' em .

    I travel abroad mr nutso , I will have to appologize to to people in other countries for people like you that want to turn us in another USA >> if you want to be American ....go get a gun .
  421. robert birks from Ottawa, Canada writes: Let's see, we are present in Afghanistan to support an elected government, which has its own army, police force, courts and prison system.

    Assuming we are not there as an occupying power, nor as mercenaries, we must be there as Allies.

    We are helping the Afghani people combat (heavily armed) criminals. When we catch these criminals, we turn them over to the authorities which run the country.

    Imagine, if you will, a scenario in which we are unable to control the criminal Indians running around with guns and disrupting Canadian affairs. Assume we call in an ally ( pick a country, any country ) to help us, but when they capture one of these criminals, they refuse to turn them over to the Canadian justice system.

    Gee, doesn't sound like an ally, any more, does it. Sounds like a superior occupying power. Hmmm.
  422. Conservative Die Hard from Toronto, Canada writes: This is crazy. The Government should not have to release anything to the public through this silly Access to Information Act. They don't have to do it in the US, why should we be so spinless as to have to do it here. The Government should be able to do what it needs to do, for what it sees is the best interest for Canada. That is why you elected them.
  423. Andrew M from Ottawa, Canada writes: Sometimes you have to break a few heads. This is WAR people.
  424. Rick McNaulty from Calgary, Canada writes: Liberals and their trash supporters will soon have to defend their beliefs on national television. The leaders debates will be such fun this coming election.

    Has anyone heard if Dion will be attending the english debates?
  425. Trillian Rand from Canada writes: Brian C from Canada:

    No, Brian, the Afghan secret police only torture people who wear Taleban uniforms and carry Taleban identification cards.

    If you had been following other new sources, you would have been reading about these stories for several years now. That the Afghan police practise torture is nothing new. Perhaps there is a bit of 'where there' smoke, there's fire' about the situation, but what preponderance of proof would you prefer? Video of people actually being tortured?

    As to your personal attack, you can think I am pathetic if you like. However, unlike yourself, I haven't gone out of my way to prove I am.
  426. Erik D. from Canada writes: To sean bob: In WWII the Americans and Brits didn't torture the prisoners, even those Nazi's everyone knew were guilty of horrible acts, and that is to whom we sent our prisoners. In WWII there were trials held for those Nazi's that were accused of committing war crimes, they had rights even though they themselves took those rights away from others. Upholding those rights is in part why Germany is now not our enemy anymore, and are our allies. This is hardly the case with the Afghan government, as even their Human Rights Commission doesn't even have access to the prisons. To make matters worse, the Americans support the War Lords, who are equally unrespectful for rights and freedoms as the Taliban.

    The second important issue here is that it seems that O'Connor, MacKay and Harper all knew that there were executions without trial, abuse, and torture occurring, and they chose to say there was no such evidence or none to their knowledge even yesterday! Now, that is a cover up, that is scandalous that a government would lie to the House of Commons, in effect to all Canadians, all for their own poltical gain. It is even more damming that they campaigned that they were honest and accountable and now we find that they are none of that at all, that will lie at the drop of a hat if they feel like it.
  427. Rodger Harding from Canada writes: Concervative Die-hard: I wish I had your facility to hand over the thinking process to someone else...

    A healthy government relies on input from its people... I guess its called accountability....ours to them..theirs to us...
  428. Wayne Dickson from Halifax, writes: Don't think Rick will be part of any debate...he's too stupid
  429. Mike A from Edmonton, Canada writes: Our involvement in this barbarism has to stop. We either get the full cooperation from the Afghan government on this matter or we should withdraw our troops immediately. That our government should lie and obfuscate is hardly surprising - that they should have us lie with the wolves is rather shocking. It is all very shameful and we are all implicated by their actions
  430. Yu Mi from Calgary, Canada writes: Reading these comments is torture.
  431. PJ Robertson from Canada writes: Richard Keefer from Omemee: Eloquent post - bravo!
  432. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: To paraphrase the lesson from another war... When they came to torture the Taliban, I said nothing because I despise the Taliban. When they tortured innocent people along with real insurgents, I said nothing because it's war, after all. When they came to torture me...

    Fortunately for those who don't care about human rights, those of us who do will save your sorry butts along with everyone else.
  433. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: William Hanlon from London, Ontario, Canada writes: R. Carriere writes: 'I despise dishonesty and cover-up no matter what Party, and I don't know about you, but I am tired of this consistent behaviour of politicians of ALL stripes! ALL of them!' I guess that means no one is ever to blame, eh? Let's not hold our present government accountable for lying and trying to cover it up since it's just par for the course. They all do it, gosh darn, boy will be boys and all that. Your comment here, R. Carriere, is cynical beyond belief, given the seriousness of what our government was trying (extremely clumsily) to hide from us. We're not talking about some missing cash here, we're talking about blood on our hands and the endangering of our troops. To paint all politicians with the same brush implies that this level of deception is inevitable and thus somehow excusable. It isn't. It simply cannot be. Posted 25/04/07 at 11:27 AM EDT William Hanlon from London, let me get it straight; it was somehow excusable that Liberals were stealing Canadian taxpayers money and lied about it (something that we as voting public and taxpayers have control over) but it is totally unexcusable that Conservatives (and Liberals before them) lied to Canadians regarding fate of captured Talibans turned over to Afghan government (something that Canadian government has very little control over and ordinary Canadian have no control over whatsoever). Did I get your drift quite right???
  434. Rodger Harding from Canada writes: Richard Roskell: I like you man!
  435. E Germain from Spruce Grove - Edmonton Spruce Grove - CanadaAB., Canada writes: Conservative die hard from Ontario ...

    A Joseph Stalin fan - he didn't have to tell anyone anything !. He
    would be abig fan of yours too .
  436. mike sty from Canada writes: Wayne Dickson

    Agree !00%
  437. B A from Ottawa, Canada writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes wrote: 'have read many comments from obvious Liberal and NDP supporters only criticizing this government and being appauled, yet WHAT is YOUR solution.' R. Carriere, I agree with Jake on his suggestion of the coalition POW camps but it doesn't take the solution quite far enough. Many of the 'Taliban' we capture or kill are in fact local unemployed and often starving residents or refugees. On a micro level the best solution would be to not just hold onto them but also EMPLOY them. Feed them. Give them medical assistance. Find out who there families are. Make sure they get fed too (along with the other 2.3 million refugees). While we're feeding them put them to work (under guard of course, they are POW's after all). Rebuild villages, irrigation canals, roads, grow crops. Whatever. In short, make them your ally and give them a purpose. We spend millions on Western corporations on reconstruction. Spend it making these people more productive. At the same time, on a macro-level, cut up Afghanistan along ethnic lines. The current borders are pointless anyway. Give each region semi-autonomy and yes, invite the Taliban to the table. Give the Pashtun an equal voice and control over their own affairs. At the same time, engage the regional powers. Japan and India are already years ahead of everyone else on this issue in economic development. Propose an economic union between the various players, much the same as has been done with the nations surrounding the Caspian basin. Make sure the union is shepharded by EU, Japan, India etc. Not the US and Russia. They just don't seem to be capable of not f**king things up. That, to me, is the only solution to the region. Anything else is just wasting time. To save the people living in Afghanistan, we have to let it go and turn it into something else. There's your solution. But so long as the US heads this nation-building project up, it'll never happen.
  438. Satori Zen from Warriors' Land, Canada writes: Conservative Die Hard from Toronto, Canada writes: This is crazy. The Government should not have to release anything to the public through this silly Access to Information Act. They don't have to do it in the US, why should we be so spinless as to have to do it here. The Government should be able to do what it needs to do, for what it sees is the best interest for Canada. That is why you elected them. -- WE THE PEOPLE are the SOVEREIGN, in this DEMOCRACY, WE (not any GOVERNMENT, not even a NEW one, ULTIMATELY decide what IS THE BEST INTEREST OF CANADA. Access to Information Act is one of the things Americans have to envy Canadians for. Look what state public opinion there has been in, for the last 6 years? Nothing enviable, really. We need nothing of the kind here.
  439. G. Veneta from Calgary, Canada writes: ........

    QUELL SURPRISE.....

    Aren't we building a 'so called' human rights museum in Winnipeg? Cons wrote the book on hypocrisy. They stand for nothing but raw power.
  440. john douglas from greedville, Canada writes: I bet tc h@rper can't wait to start torturing Canadian citizens who submit anti-conservative posts on internet blogsites!
    Dirty tricks, attack ads, war rooms, lies, deception - what part of the term
    'slippery slope' don't swing voters get?
  441. Mark Orr from Toronto, Canada writes: Hmmm, amazing that some people actually advocate torture. Perhaps we should start training torturers? Perhaps we can have a torturers professional association? The fact is anyone can be tortured into saying ANYTHING, so if one wants to be lied to, torture away. This mission has no purpose and it no longer has any honor. We are just the latest barbarian horde to try and conquer Afghanistan. The sooner we fail the better off our country will be.
  442. William Hanlon from London, Ontario, Canada writes: R. Carriere: My point was made very clearly and flowed directly from your own words. Go back and read your own post if you failed to understand me. You are trying to appear to condemn this government's actions while at the same time excusing them by linking these actions to all government corruption, as if to say it were somehow normal and thus weirdly acceptable to lie to the public. It doesn't take much to understand what Liberal corruption you are obliquely referring to. And never have I excused the Liberals for any of their own past lies. I've worked on political campaigns to defeat Liberals. Unlike you, however, I just don't think these past issues are even remotely relevant to the present situation. Harper and O'Connor must be held accountable for this mess and deceit. They are not excused by past Liberal corruption nor present Liberal unsteadiness, no matter how cynical one feels.
  443. b mac from Canada writes: The Liberal Party of Canada has no shame. They gave the Canadian military 15 minutes notice that they would be fighting in Afghanistan. They sent our troops poorly equipped. They arrange the prisoner transfer system............. Read the Toronto Star web page................ for the low life hypocracy within the Liberal party. The Emperor has no clothes. Shameful, disguting reporting by the Globe to say the least. Canadians are abiding by the Geneva Convention.
  444. Rex Shoop from Hazelton, Canada writes: 'WAR IS HELL' WHO AMONG US THOUGHT THIS ONE WAS GOING TO BE A TEA PARTY? WE AS A COUNTRY HAVE BECOME KILLERS FOR JUSTICE. FUN ISN'T IT?
  445. Peter Cromerovich from Erehwon, Canada writes: James Clost: I failed to make my point clear. That is, looking at the larger picture, which is winning over the support of the population and, in particular, those that are not hard core Taliban, those that could side with whoever were the strongest or whoever kept them from starvation etc. You will do yourself a disservice by rounding these people up and torturing them, especially if their only 'guilt' happened to be being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are a lot of grey areas and thinking of it in first world terms and especially a courtroom and defense lawyers is out of place in Afghanistan. If you don't get the support of the majority of the population the effort is futile. Gaining trust and support is hard, losing it is easy.
  446. Rex Shoop from Hazelton, Canada writes: Ottawa moves to ban incandescent lights- WITH THE LIGHTS OUT WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SEE A THING THAT IS GOING ON. NOW WE WAIT FOR A 'TELECOMUNICATION AND RADIO ANNOUNCMENT'. SEE NO EVIL HEAR NO EVIL.
  447. Erik D. from Canada writes: To Conservative Die Hard: Actually, they actually do need to do so in America. Bush doesn't want to, but he is being held accountable finally, once the fear due to 9-11 has finnally started to subside and Amercians are waking up to the fact that Bush and company have been decidely undemocratic. Why do you think that the same type of revelations occur in the States, its because in a democratic society you are accountable to the people. Otherwise all you have is a dictatorship. Is that what you want?
  448. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: Mike A from Edmonton, Canada writes: Our involvement in this barbarism has to stop. We either get the full cooperation from the Afghan government on this matter or we should withdraw our troops immediately. That our government should lie and obfuscate is hardly surprising - that they should have us lie with the wolves is rather shocking. It is all very shameful and we are all implicated by their actions
    Posted 25/04/07 at 11:49 AM EDT

    Mike A from Edmonton, I am with you brother and support your position, China is preparing their mission to Moon in 2012. You might wish to sign up and once you get there apply for political asylum citing complicity of all NATO governments and Canada in particular in cover up of torture of Taliban prisoners by Afghan government.
  449. Tony Sailor from Victoria, Canada writes: John Percy from Halifax; Thanks for reminding us of the excellent website 'skyreporter.com' mastered by an also excellent journalist; Arhur Kent has more than 25 years experience in Afghanistan alone.

    You can watch a good CBC video about him and with him at
    ' http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=1525'.

    Lots of the posters here should look at it. Those that will undestand the realities he is talking about will either shut up or speak a very different language...
  450. c e mendoza from Victoria, Canada writes: I am sure I have seen and heard Steve Harper on the TV that the reports of human rights abuse in Afghanistan cam from the Talibans. Who are these Talibans, Steve? Then, what is this heavily censored report received by the Globe and Mail? Who is not telling the truth and not does not want us Canadians to know about the abuses? Stop handing out the prisoners to Afghanistanis ... who, as Stockwell Day said, are used to torturing. Canada must be accountable the World Court about these abuses. Human rights cannot be flogged to death, Larry Robinson; it must prevail.
  451. terry stortz from Paris, Canada writes: If you talk about allowing same-sex marriage, taxing income trusts, legalizing marijuana or where it is in fact the leafs or the Habs who actually suck, you’ll get a lot of mixed opinion and disagreement from Canadians – Conservative, Liberal, whatever. However, Canadians do not condone, advocate or support torture. That’s pretty much a universal value we have. So WTF are we doing propping up the Afghan “government”? How on earth can you tell the good guys from the bad guys over there? Today is the first time I’ve ever typed this out loud: HARPER: GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN NOW!
  452. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Satori Zen from Warriors' Land, : Hi Sani. Thanks for the comment and you don't want to get me going WHY we should NOT even be there, losing precious lives.

    I have read with great interest the 'Official 9/11 Commission Report' with notes and did my own research over the last several years. It is an astonishing document-full of falsehoods-misinformation-and incredible ommissions!

    That stated, we went to Afghanistan based on Article 5 of the Pact, and UN approval, but based on what on what we have been told by the US government. My conclusions ( call me crazy-I don't care) is that there was a coup d'etat started with the 9 11 event in the US, with a now overt attack on the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights invoking opression of freedoms and rights-with one example being the Patriot Act!

    So would logic dictate we are complicit because we follow and align ourselves with the real forces of evil? That is why we do not belong there!
  453. Erik D. from Canada writes: To b mac: yes, the Liberals didn't do a good job of it either, but then now Harper and O'Connor haven't either, and to boot have been caught lying to Canadians about the situation, O'Connor twice now. As the NDP folded, turned 180 and supported the Cons last night, that doesn't leave us with anyone we can trust to vote for does it?
  454. Lewis Bartholomew from Vancouver Island, Canada writes: The conservatives wanted an American style government in Canada and now they have it. Full of lies and deceit and blaming the other guy. You get what you vote for. And you will again if you aren't careful. Just remember the previous opposition's stance on terrorism, rendition and the guilt of Arar and how they had to flip their opinion (all but Day) once the truth made them free. This government supported Israel using cluster bombs and missles into UN positions. Just like the US. And they see nothing wrong with turning the suspect Afghans (even though this government labels them all as terrorists and taliban) knowing they will be tortured just like the Americans with Club Cuba and Abu Ghrab. And now the NDP is right in bed with them. Yup, a good old American style government. Good old Conservative values.
  455. Vadim Melikh from toronto, Canada writes: Let's get the army and Harper OUT and plant flowers all over Afghan cities (not a joke). Then let's paint hearts and guns with roses on advertising posters of the same cities (get local artists engage). Then, let's make a movie about Taliban atrocities and portray them as they are- lost people turn manipulative monsters and broadcast it on Afghanistan TV. So Afghanis will not join the organization. Then let's expose the real religion and ethics values thru educated, true leaders. Let's ban torture in the country and establish educational prison system to develop understanding and not fear and hate. let NATO support local police and army with funds and expertise. And then, again, let's bring the soldiers home.
  456. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    B A from Ottawa, Canada: Thanks for taking the time to write back. I REALLY like your train of thought supplementary to Jake!
  457. Erik D. from Canada writes: To Rex Shoop from Hazelton: Yes, the Cons are now copying the poorly thought out ideas of the Ontario Liberal party. That will really sell well in Ontario won't it? So much for any chance of a Con majority.
  458. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    William Hanlon from London, Ontario: Somehow, I believe we are saying the same thing in a different way! Cheers!
  459. Jonathan Kilius from Canada writes: The Globe and Mail official paper of Taliban propaganda. Just scream Torture and the Globe will be by your side, then You will have Dion trying to give you a free trip to Canada.

    This is such a manufactured story, but hey when the Taliban call the Globe and Mail will be there.
  460. anderson Stevenson from Canada writes: Is this surprising? Harper is Bush league and Bush league is what you get.
  461. William Hanlon from London, Ontario, Canada writes: Karol Karolak: No, clearly you did not 'get my drift quite right'. Show me where I said that any lying by anyone in political office was ever justified or right or excusable. R. Carriere said he was tired of ALL politicians lying to us, and I responded by saying that the lies of past politicians are not relevant to the present situation, because we have to hold each politician responsible for his or her own actions. By conflating past corruption with this present mess in Afghanistan, we're saying that money the Liberals stole from us somehow gives Conservatives the right to also lie to us, since that's 'just what politicians do'. I'm saying that such a response to the present situation is cynical and unhelpful, especially given that we're talking here about torture and the possibility we're putting our troops into a legal black hole. If you want to 'read in' to my statement some unintended justification for past Liberal wrongs and turn me into some kind of 'corrupt Liberal' straw man, go ahead. Funny how any criticism of Stephen Harper's actions automatically makes one a 'lying Liberal' around here. Just to be clear, I've worked on election campaigns to remove Liberals from office. But I still don't see what adscam has to do with Afghanistan.
  462. john douglas from greedville, Canada writes: I heard stockwell day on the news last night claiming that the taliban 'have no compunction in machine-gunning little children...'
    Does that mean you and your boss have no compunction in endorsing torture or that our allowing torture to occur is somehow justified by the talibans alleged lack of morality?
    Where will this all end?
  463. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: .....another nail in the coffin that holds your credibility Stevie.....it's stuff like this that make you and your gang so unfit to lead our country.....
  464. One Canadian from Canada writes:
    WHAT THE GLOBE AND MAIL DOSEN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW....

    Torture, murder, beheading, stonning, whiping...this is all an intergral part of the koran. The koran is the war manual that cult uses to define muslim life. This is a muslim country and that is what they do to each other. We are not going to stop it.

    Besides, cult members live to die. They can't wait to see the moon god and get their allotment of virgins.

    On the other hand, civilzation needs to understand how to stop these beasts. There will come a day (soon) when we will be fighting these savages in our own cities as per the war manual. We will need to know the best methods for extracting information. The afgans can train us.
  465. Don Adams from Canada writes: A BIG problem here in Canada is Canadians are getting TOO MUCH information. LIEbbies and socialists especially just don't have the brains or inner fortitude to handle tough situations and come up with realistic solutions, so shouldn't be given ANY information. Best to do away with the Access to Information Act and rely on our ELECTED leaders to make the decisions. If you as an individual want your voice heard, then run for a seat in Parliament.

    But first, it'd be a good idea to round up all socialists and communists in Canada and ESPECIALLY the lefty posters here, and send them to sea on container ships.... in the containers! Maybe some other Country will accept them. :-) :-)
  466. gordon winters from Canada writes: the last government was populayed by lying thieves and the new one is filled with vicious thugs that belive our security is best served through torture.

    the two governments share the notion that the ends justify the means.

    the ends do no such thing.

    its a sad day to be canadian.
  467. Anne Peterson from Canada writes: During world war 2 german prisoners of war were shipped to Canada to be interned. Canada was much smaller in population then and much poorer but we still did the decent thing. Germany was a real threat too, not just some sort of paranoid illusion.

    Fascist regimes use torture as a tool. They also use propaganda. Military dictatorships have no civilian oversight of the military. Be careful what you wish for. A quick review of the characteristics of fascism might be in order for some of you.

    AnnieS4
  468. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Don Adams - you keep digging yourself into a really extremist hole with your twisted ideology. Your stance is the most dangerous one for our troops on the ground that are doing your dirty work. You can't get anymore right-wing neo-con than you have. What happened to the Don Adams who claimed (on a daily basis) that you were the most fair and balanced person around?
  469. Stan L from Canada writes: One Canadian.......The Koran is a war manual that cults use to define muslim life?.......your tinfoil hat seems to be slipping a little.
  470. otmar zambo from Canada writes: History is a bunch of lies perpetrated on the loosers by the Winners!
    Let us take Canadian soldiers out of Afghanistan employ them at our borders to keep the scum that they are now protecting from each other out of our Country!
  471. Al MacDonald from Think Green, Canada writes: Don Adams: Who p_$$ed in your corn flakes this morning? Bit extreme, even for you.
  472. The Loyal Canadian Workfarce from Canada writes: The first thing Ottawa doesn't want you to know is that Ottawa doesn't want you to know because if you knew that Ottawa doesn't want you to know what Ottawa doesn't want you to know and everything else Ottawa doesn't want you to know you'd know how badly you've been fooled since Ottawa was Ottawa and you were you.
    The second thing, third thing and 50th thing Ottawa doesn't want you to know are ------- (Fill in the blanks).
    Yes there will be a test.
  473. Free Markets from Canada writes: I wish I cared as much as the rest of you. Unfortunately desperate times call for desperate measures. F them all
  474. One Canadian from Canada writes:
    Stan L...Read it
  475. Erik D. from Canada writes: To Anne Peterson: I agree. Did you see the article about Facism in America in the Guardian? I found it interesting as it speaks to basically what you pointed out.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1
  476. . . from Canada writes: One Canadian = Karol Karolak??
  477. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Jonathan Kilius - Ah Jonathan, at least your spelling has improved over time! Please oh great one, please list exactly how the information in the article has been 'manufactured' as you claim? Please show us what you are privy to that has led you to make the libellous statement that the author of this article has manufactured it.
  478. Not the Alliance from In my opinion, The Harper Gov't is Still Incompetent, Canada writes: Don Adams illustrates the Harper 'conservative' CONundrum. They spend a lot of energy criticizing the so-called 'nanny state' mentality of the 'lefties' (definition of leftie - anybody who does not march to the same drummer as them). Then they turn around and argue that it is completely appropriate for their gov't to hide information from them (i.e. the public is not capable of handling this information). This is the paradox of the rabid Harper 'conservative'. Criticize the so called 'nanny state', but advocate being treated like you need a nanny. Paradox or hypocrisy - one or the other.

    Sorry Don, but in a democracy, NO gov't has a right to lie (and Yes, that includes gov'ts of ANY party).
  479. William Hanlon from London, Ontario, Canada writes: Don Adams: Funny how you hate socialists and communists so much, given that the governmental structure you advocate, in which the government makes its decisions in a secret dark room away from the prying eyes of the public, so closely resembles the socialist and communist regimes of Stalin, Hitler and Mao. As Anne Peterson wrote, above: 'Be careful what you wish for'.
  480. Gordon Nicol from Wellington, FL, United States writes: Regarding leaked redacted report: is there a possibility that ex post facto redaction reveals earlier problems? Such as, the report actually erroneously quoted 'unreliable' or 'extraneous' sources which are now redacted in hindsight?
  481. Claude Carriere from Canada writes: I think Don Adams is a terrorist. He has already admitted to having a loaded M16 with thoughts of using it on other posters to this board.

    I think the military should round him up, torture him until he confesses and then summarily execute him without trial.

    Peace Don, think about what you are posting. :-) :-) :-)
  482. mike sty from Canada writes: Hopefully Harper, Baird, Lund, Flaherty and the remainder of this coalition of idiots will be on that container ship.
    Then, maybe we will be returned a real PC party.
  483. Erik D. from Canada writes: To Don Adams from Canada writes: 'A BIG problem here in Canada is Canadians are getting TOO MUCH information.'

    Oh, you've just got to be kidding. What do you think a democracy is? Its when information flows freely. Its when those in power are held accountable for their actions. But if you insist, then I guess we also had too much info when the AD SCAM was unearthered, I mean we didn't need to know that info, as it addressed a Liberal solution to a National security issue, I mean Quebec was threatening to leave, and had at time produced terrorists in their attempt to leave.

    No, I'ld rather not be kept in the dark and fed sh*t by my government (Liberal, Conservative, whatever) that thinks they know what's best when its plain as day, that they don't.
  484. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: At one time I thought the mission in Afghanistan would be a strong point for the Conservatives, but no longer. If there is one thing that Canadians have said in poll after poll, it is that we want to be seen as upstanding, moral and just global citizens. Some use the label 'peace keeping' and some use the term 'peace making' but at the end of the day we are an idealistic people with good intentions. That our government not only knowingly handed over prisoners for torture, but then lied to us about it, has given the moral highground to the opposition on a silver platter.

    Along with their constant flip flopping on climate change (i.e there is no climate change, oh wait we support Kyoto, oh but it will bankrupt the country, oh but we really do support action...etc etc) I can't imagine how they could possibly even maintain their minority now.

    The CPC will now attempt to keep this sad limping excuse for a government going for as long as possible, because they can't possibly think that their key targets of southern Ontario and Quebec will vote for them.
  485. ex- Easterner from Calgary, Canada writes: I will leave the issue of whether it is right or wrong to hand over detainees to torturers to be argued by others; but I do want to add my voice to those who are appalled by the level of incompetence and dishonesty being exhibited by Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Harper.

    Mr. O'Connor continues to misrepresent or misunderstand what is actually happening in the detainee transfer process. He played dumb once, now he either has to play dumb again or admit to being a liar. Whichever he chooses, he must be replaced.

    And a word of advice to Mr. Harper ... put a muzzle on that Peachland pip squeak Stockwell Day. Listening to him brand all the detainees interviewed by the G&M as Taliban killers makes my stomach churn.
  486. Harold Uhlman from writes: Don - You are giving me a few chuckles today. Couple of item from CP on information for Canadians. First: Canadian Press Published: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 Article tools OTTAWA (CP) - Support for Stephen Harper's Conservatives appears to have taken a nose-dive. A new poll suggests the Tories have dropped to 30 per cent support and are in a statistical dead heat with the Liberals. The Conservatives had been polling near 40 per cent after their budget in late March. Second: Canadian Press Published: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 Article tools OTTAWA (CP) - The NDP says an internal memo suggests the Conservatives are setting up a new festival-funding boondoggle. They say the document indicates that a new $30-million program for summer festivals will favour ridings held by Conservatives. New Democrat MP Charlie Angus says the note to Conservative caucus members was found lying around on Parliament Hill. The document includes a note from Heritage Minister Bev Oda, accompanied by a questionnaire. The questionnaire asks Tory MPs to provide the names of events in their ridings that should receive funding. Angus says he finds it disturbing that Tory MPs are already being asked to recommend festivals when the program doesn't yet have an official name, website, or publicly available details about how it works. In article 1 with poll results seems we are getting information. In article 2 seems we could use more just like we can on Afghan situation. Could their be a correlation between the poll result and lack of information on significant issues?
  487. Matt Stiles from Vancouver, Canada writes: I am thoroughly outraged. I want my country back. These clowns had their chance and they have disgraced the nation. I demand an election! Now!
  488. Peter Cromerovich from Erehwon, Canada writes: I am signing off from this post. The mindsets are ludicrous, medieval and scary. Why waste one's time reading drivel when there is a big, beautiful world out there?
  489. Randy Wolf from Edmonton, Canada writes: No was this report before they established the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission
  490. Ranald Walton from Hamilton, Canada writes: Canada needs a larger military in these unsettling times.

    We all know the LPC hates police and the military (as demonstrated yet again in that disgusting 'Troops in Our Cities' attack ad), but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Canada is fighting a war that Chretien and Martin correctly committed us to.

    To the brave men and women in harm's way I say: good hunting. The only good Taliban, is a dead one.
  491. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: mike sty from Canada writes: 'Hopefully Harper, Baird, Lund, Flaherty and the remainder of this coalition of idiots will be on that container ship.
    Then, maybe we will be returned a real PC party.'

    Amen brother. This is the dream of all true conservatives. The social control freaks we have now calling themselves Conservatives have now proven themselves no better than the cheats who called themselves Liberals.

    Canadian politics is currently rife with stench. I will be voting Green in the next election. It will either scare the mainstream straight, or replace them with someone else. Either way we need to get these cynical sycophants out of office.
  492. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: Clearly Don Adams would have felt comfortable with the actions his government was taking in a 1939 Germany. Don has issues when the government wants create day-care spaces, but does not have a problem when they cover up information about sending people out for tortue. Don, thanks to you I will never consider the conservatives for my vote, ever! And unlike you (since you definetely come across as being a bitter old man), I still have many voting years ahead of me! Peace :-)
  493. maurizio arani from woodbridge, Canada writes: Dark Green from Canadian Warriors' Inn, Shame on YOU!!!!. I merely stated a fact that these so called prisoners are KILLERS that DO NOT CARE ABOUT OUR TROOPS AND THEIR OWN PEOPLE. what happens to them after our soldiers capture and hand them over is that NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS DOING. These KILLERS do not care about democracy or people in general and will do what ever is in their means to get what they want even killing our troops. I say do what must be done and if that means torture then so be it....
  494. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=6fe6aee6-6e41-4d93-accb-fd4ecb7b7546&k=77572

    !!!! And this was before information about how the conservatives support tortue came out !!!!
  495. mike sty from Canada writes: Don's been drinking barrels of the Harper kool-aid.
  496. Don Adams from Canada writes: Hi Harold. :-) Yep, and I'm getting some too. All these guys just a hopping and a skipping to bash me in the posts :-) Pulling wires is neat. I just find it amazing how some dumb people can accept statements at face value and get all wound for sound :-)

    Claude Carrierre, sorry, I don't have an M 16.... they're illegal. Will my legally registered 30-30 do? :-)
  497. Fiven Dime from Canada writes: Sadly, Don Adams is right.

    If Canadian troops were obliged to ensure all battefield conditions complied with the conditions imposed by our most liberal and compassionate advocates, they would never be able to do anything. If they never did anything, aggressors would be able to act without fear of serious reprisal. How would our world look then?

    The government of the day needs some license to act decisively and effectively. When the press fails to use reasonable judgement to put the interests of our country and our society ahead of its own interest in gathering attention or serving its apparent political alignment with emotionally soppy screed, then the government is doing the responsible thing by blacking out sensitive report contents.

    Making war is like making sausages. Few could stomach the product if they examined the process closely. If you think the world is better off for having sausages, be glad there are butchers. Ditto for war and governments.
  498. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: ex- Easterner from Calgary: I know what you mean. Watching Doris try to justify the treatment of these prisoners turned my stomach too. I can tell you that looks on the faces of everyone in the room was almost comical. I don't think there was a person in the room who looked comfortable with his idiotic comments, and there were a lot of Conservatives in the room.

    I think Stock should go back to preaching creationism. At least head-in-cloud Christian literalists might buy his grandpa rode a dinosaur crap.
  499. Karol Karolak from Canada writes: William Hanlon from London, Ontario, Canada writes: Karol Karolak: No, clearly you did not 'get my drift quite right'. Show me where I said that any lying by anyone in political office was ever justified or right or excusable. R. Carriere said he was tired of ALL politicians lying to us, and I responded by saying that the lies of past politicians are not relevant to the present situation, because we have to hold each politician responsible for his or her own actions. By conflating past corruption with this present mess in Afghanistan, we're saying that money the Liberals stole from us somehow gives Conservatives the right to also lie to us, since that's 'just what politicians do'. I'm saying that such a response to the present situation is cynical and unhelpful, especially given that we're talking here about torture and the possibility we're putting our troops into a legal black hole. If you want to 'read in' to my statement some unintended justification for past Liberal wrongs and turn me into some kind of 'corrupt Liberal' straw man, go ahead. Funny how any criticism of Stephen Harper's actions automatically makes one a 'lying Liberal' around here. Just to be clear, I've worked on election campaigns to remove Liberals from office. But I still don't see what adscam has to do with Afghanistan. Posted 25/04/07 at 12:23 PM EDT William Hanlon from London, let me ask you then; should we as Canadians be more concerned about the fact that Liberals were stealing Canadian taxpayers money and lied about it (something that we as voting public and taxpayers have control over) than about the fact that Conservatives (and Liberals before them) lied to Canadians regarding fate of captured Talibans turned over to Afghan government (something that Canadian government has very little control over and ordinary Canadian have no control over whatsoever)???
  500. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=6fe6aee6-6e41-4d93-accb-fd4ecb7b7546&k=77572
  501. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Claude Carriere from Canada: This is funny-same family name!

    I like Don-He was a caring and helping hand for me when I experienced some health stuff.

    Did Don Adams really want to load up an M 16? Geez, I don't remember that! My take on Don is that he loves this country-expects everyone to stand up for themselves instead of waiting for a hand out, worked hard for what he has, and sacrificed for the best for his family. I also believe he has no tolerance for people who would diss our military in favour of rights for those who want to kill our soldiers-whether we should be there or not!

    Anyway, just my thoughts. Call him what you want, but I would sure as hell go to war with him and want him on my side if Canada was ever attacked!
  502. Trillian Rand from Canada writes: Philosopher King from Ottawa: re: post of 12:39 EDT.

    I agree with you. Unfortunately, so many other posters seem to think torture is reasonable and necessary and that the government should be able to do what it wants without interference from the pesky public that Mr Harper should be able to keep all the seats he has.

    It never fails to amaze me that those who don't care about basic human rights for others are the first to complain about fascist states and dictatorships when they are not allowed to do as they please. Obviously logic is not offered in our education system any more.
  503. Keith Petreman from Ottawa, Canada writes: Hey don Adams, thanks for showing everyone what the Conservatives are really all about. I will never take anything you post seriously again, not as if I ever really dead. People like you make me greatful for The Charter of Rights and Freedoms. You should join the Taliban.
  504. Barry Lipsett from Canada writes: What can one expect from the crowd that was content to see Maher Arar rot in a Syrian jail.

    As for Larry Robinson, I would thik it better to flog this story to death than to flog to death Afgan priosoners who may or may not be Taliban.
  505. s c from Canada writes: I agree with Dion - let's bring all the taliban fighters back to Canada - NOT.

    Unless the Liberals are promoting that we send more troops to Afghanistan to run holding centres for those captured, Canadian troops do not have much choice but to hand over the taliban fighters. If the Afghan government is torturing those captured, we do need to vocally oppose this treatment. It shows another reason why Canadian troops are still needed in Afghanistan.

    The Afghanistan mission is NATO run, let's push to have some observers stationed at the locations where the taliban prisoners are held.
  506. Dave Jansen from Canada writes: R. Carriere - The only problem with your glowing review of Don Adams is that we are not going to war nor will Canada be invaded any time soon. The problem is that he justifies torture (as long as it's not being done on an old white man, right Don?) and thinks it's wonderful that a government in a democracy can lie to their people. Apart from that, he is reck-loose that wouldn't even qualify for the armed forces. He is the type of guy that young men need to go over-seas to die and do all the dirty work for - him along with all other right-wing whackos mind you - all them chicken-hawks.
  507. The Critic Critic from Sarnia, writes: All this venom toward Harper is quite amusing because the only other alternative is Dion, now that is when it really gets funny.
  508. D. Bailey from Canada writes: One expects a respected and experenced journal to use words better. There is no such thing as an 'extrajudicial execution'. A deliberate killing without due process of law cannot be any kind of execution.

    It's a murder.

    So, for that matter is a 'disappearance', if I understand what you are describing, and all murders should be prosecuted. Not ony the shooter, who may be only an employee, but also all accomplices. Such as those who hired the murderer, trained him, ordered it done, corrupted the public institutions necessary to permit it.

    In this case that would be the whole chain of command of both countries involved. Where duties are involved, those who set it up and give the orders are by far the most culpable.

    If we were still a civilized nation of laws, we would be planning a trial.
  509. Khalid Rahim from scarborough, Canada writes: Would the Government of Canada hold a survey here to find how many Pashtuns from Afghanistan reside here as compared to other ethnic groups!
  510. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Bill Thompson from Calgary, Canada writes: IR: You are a classic barrack room lawyer. Such unqualified advice often got many a poor trooper in a world of hurt.

    Mr. Thompson you know nothing about me and I will keep that so. I too have been around a bit and I have probably seen a lot more than you have - both in and out of uniform. I have seen many a person in the CF utter the most convincing jibberish - of all ranks. I have suggested how the troops can avoid being the target of eventual war crimes, should they be given orders to commit war crimes, citing various Acts and the Queen's Orders and Regulations. What is wrong with that? Would you rather that they be in ignorance? You know they are supposed to read and be familiar with the QR&Os.

    Or are you one of these people who subscribes to the 'army way', keel-hauling, blanket parties, hazing and all that? True leadership is not the same thing as abusing the troops, arbitrary decision-making or persecuting them for taking the time to learn the rules by which the military is supposed to conduct itself (and which limits its powers) and apply them. If they are being persecuted then I would submit that not only are their commanders insecure, but their commanders are acting improper - and there is cause for a Grievance (which is their statutory right no matter how upset their superior is that his acts are being challenged).

    I am still astounded the CF is arguing before the Federal Court that it should have a Charter exemption for its operations. It is clear to me that its leaders have lost sight of the fact that powers delegated to the military are restricted, not expansive. That is ultimately a problem in training and discipline. Stripping its members of their Charter rights, in the name of the 'mission', is not indicative of the CF that I knew.
  511. jamie yavis from bc, Canada writes: Governments, what can I say...it does not matter if they were Conservatives, Liberals, or the NDP they all would have done the same.

    It shows what a farce of a democracy we are living in!

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