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Exclusive investigation

From Canadian custody into cruel hands

GRAEME SMITH

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 2:01 AM EDT 23/04/07

Exclusive investigation: Savage beatings, electrocution, whipping and extreme cold: Detainees detail a litany of abuses by Afghan authorities ...Read the full article

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  1. Paul Thompson from Canada writes: Sure is nice to know we're fighting with the good guys...we'll just terrorize the terrorists into submission, yeah, that's it.
  2. Peter Cromerovich from Erehwon, Canada writes: Just the stiff upper lip stuff to win hearts and minds, eh? The war against terror. We fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here. Coalition of the willing. If you are not for us you are against us.....

    Perhaps Stockwell would like to import some of these techniques for his prisons here and for radically increasing the number of guilty pleas?
  3. JD Wood from Toronto, Canada writes: Disgusting. But it looks as if the paranoid, fearful Americans are on the board already, trying to spread their schizophrenic beliefs that all Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq want to swim across the ocean and get them.
  4. E K from Irrevervant, Canada writes: Everyone should call the 'Anti Corruption' boss. Convincted a while back in Vegas for peddling heroin to an undercover agent.

    Buy some smack..... and .... whoppeee.... no more pain.

    Is this story REAL?
  5. BaZ MaN from Canada writes: How cruel it would be so much better just to cut their heads off as infidels!
  6. E K from Irrevervant, Canada writes: HD Wood. The situation is terrible. Worse than thought, previously.

    Don't you know? ALL muslims are out there to kill us?

    Only thing I don't understand is why this wasn't happening in 1946, or before? Is there some possibility this has something to do with US foreign policy since then?

    By the way, if the powers that be want to stop all this, just wire 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
    Swiss Francs to a bank account number which can be provided.

    Will be happy to kick back 50 percent of it to YOUR Swiss bank accounts, numbers to be provided. All very hush hush of course.... all in the name of National Security.

    Ernst Stavro Blofeld.
  7. E K from Irrevervant, Canada writes: Hot news... just breaking.

    The Compensation Committee of SMERSH has now decreed that 'W' be granted a bonus of $200 Million U.S. dollars, for a job well done.

    Of course, it will be credited directly to a Swiss Bank account.
    None of those pesky US taxes.

    All members voted unanimously, that is is completely unacceptable for a mere vice president to have a net worth less than than of the front man, the President.... who takes all the well deserved criticism from his own people, and other countries.

    Please provide an account number.

    E.S.B.

    For your eyes only.... please destroy after receipt of this message.
  8. E K from Irrevervant, Canada writes: Apologies from SMERSH.

    The word in the previous post, of the the Vice President being worth less than the president, was meant to mean MORE than the president.

    The incompetent clerk who sent that is now history.

    So..... where do we send the kickbacks?
  9. mogens bay from Canada writes: This what I like about GM. Giulty without proof. The Canadian way? before slandering, where and when was these interviews done? In Afganistan? then the people opening their mouth would be dead now. Mr. Smith how much money were you paid for this? and how many did you get killed? have a nice day.
  10. Western Canadian from West of Winnipeg, Canada writes: Every secret police and security agencies torture political prisoners.Assuming otherwise is just playing stupid.It happened in Iraq and Quantanamo.It is happening in Afghanistan. Canadian generals in Afghanistan will play dumb because it is just doesn't look nice and proper. And politicians? Who the hell trust them anyway?
  11. E K from Irrevervant, Canada writes: Question for the US powers that be....

    The board of directors of SMERSH are quite concerned. Apparently there ate over 200 Stinger missiles unaccounted for, stolen off the coast of Florida about 12 years ago, as well as 3 'broken arrows', nukes gone missing?

    What are the powers that be going to do about it?
  12. E K from Irrevervant, Canada writes: The fun never ends.

    Another channel for marketing more wars...... SMERSH. Lots of Americans have seen the James Bond movies. Maybe the White House can convince the people that there is ANOTHER bunch of 'Evil Doers' out there.

    Lots of incremental sales for the 'defence' industry. Good way to scare the s..t out of the American people. Only favour I ask.... send a private eMail... as to which presently nothing little complany can get contracts for 20 or 30 Billion for selling crap to the government.

    Hugs and Kisses.
  13. D. Sadoway from HK, Hong Kong writes: In the past Canadian agencies have gone to great lengths to ensure that extradited individuals leaving Canada would not face torture, inhumane treatment or the death penalty. In Afghanistan today are we not now being hypocritical by allowing our soldiers to transfer these individuals into the hands of the Afghan NDS gestapo, knowing full well they may face torture or even worse? Are we not moving more and more down the moral and ethical slippery slope that Bush et Al have taken us since 9-11 that has resulted in judge first, ask questions later or 'fire, aim, ready' as one pundit recently put it (Gitmo, Abu Graib, and dragnet victims like Mahir Arar). Those who survive the torture will surely be ticking timebombs who will come back to haunt Afghans and occupier forces for future generations.

    Put another way: how do we with the benefit of historical hindsight view the actions of those in agencies in WWII Vichy France who willingly complied with the edits of the Third Reich in sending thousands to their certain deaths? Are there any parallels with our forces perhaps unwitting alliance with the NDS??
  14. Hunter J from Sudbury, Canada writes: The danger with torture is that because seeming someone in pain releases endorphins (the brain's natural opiate) the act of torturing becomes something addictive.

    Afghanistan is known to have many torture centers modelled after Abu Grab and has been called the Torture Center of the World. Unfortunately there's no way our troops can't be involved.

    It's a bad policy to start, especially if when they come home, they're still addicted.
  15. Francois A. from Calgary, Canada writes: Hunter J from Sudbury, 'The danger with torture is that because seeming someone in pain releases endorphins (the brain's natural opiate) the act of torturing becomes something addictive.

    Afghanistan is known to have many torture centers modelled after Abu Grab and has been called the Torture Center of the World. Unfortunately there's no way our troops can't be involved.

    It's a bad policy to start, especially if when they come home, they're still addicted'

    That's sick. The inenuedo your suggesting is disgusting. What insight do you have? Hmmm? Spell it out or keep your false accusations to yourself you sick excuse for a human being. I have many friends over there and I've already lost one. Our troops are not operating the prisons, get that throuugh your thick brain. My god you're disgusting.
  16. Angry West Coast Canuck from Canada writes: So much for being different from the Americans. I'd blame the neocons and Harper, but for once it's probably been going on since before they got into office. Of course, we're not going to count on Harper and cronies to actually put a stop to handing over people to be tortured.

    At least it's not Canadians doing the torturing, but it's disgusting none-the-less.
  17. Hunter J from Sudbury, Canada writes: Francois A. from Calgary

    I’m sorry if you have relatives or friends with our forces in Afghanistan but during a more calm moment please look up two topics on the Net

    1. Torture and Endorphins
    2. Afghanistan and Torture

    Unfortunately what you&8217;ll see is that what I have said is true. I wish it wasn&8217;t but it is. You could also go to a library if you&8217;re interested further.

    What is most sad here is that our politicians are playing this card for political gain and in the end it&8217;s guys like you and me who end up paying the price in terms of erosion of our standards of living our personal freedom and our democracy.

    What&8217;s the answer ?? I don&8217;t know but I believe that we&8217;ll find it if we calmly seek the truth and try to block out the shrill of political rhetoric.

    Francois I truly wish your friends or relatives well and I&8217;m sorry if my comments on this forum have upset you
    .
  18. Duncan Munro from Langley BC, Canada writes: Dion and Liberals want this to continue for another two years...screw that, lets get out now and leave the torturing to the USA...they seemed to enjoy that side of things, in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and of course Afghanistan.
  19. G From Canada from Canada writes: This is what you get when a conservative government lead by an oppressive stevie harpo. It is time to get this war and fearmongering goverment out of here. Say no to bush and say no to steve.
  20. Vancouver-Kingsway Antics-Shy Voter from Canada writes: On Afghanistan:

    Stephen Harper Sept 18, 2006: 'It's certainly raising Canada's leadership role, once again, in the United Nations and in the world community where we used to have an important leadership role,' he said.

    Stephen Harper (from the CBC Sept 19, 2006): 'Canada shares its goal of giving the people of Afghanistan, the children, men and women alike, the chance of a better life,' Harper said in a Sept. 14 news release announcing Karzai's visit. 'A life of peace, security, freedom and justice. A life we as Canadians have for ourselves and that we seek for others.'

    Now, Stephen Harper, let's see some leadership on this.

    Stephen Harper is soft on Human Rights.
    Stephen Harper is soft on Truth.
  21. Peter Pecek from suriname, writes: The bottom line is, that we have no clue what we are doing over there. No idea who is who. Who is a 'suspected' taliban? Whom are we capturing? A dentist, a farmer and unemployed government employee an union organizer or just sombody who spits when he passes by? To our soldiers they all look the same. We will never know how much everyone hates us - they will not tell even when we (the 'Afghan Government') torture them......nice going Canada!
  22. Geoffrey Diss from Berlin, Germany writes: Brilliant.

    O'Connor must go. Day must go. The Harper government must go.

    And our troops must leave Afghanistan at the end of the current mandate.
  23. Vancouver-Kingsway Antics-Shy Voter from Canada writes: Scot Louks, if we don't know, and O'Connor doesn't know, Hillier doesn't know and apparently Harper doesn't know, perhaps Mr. Harper's psychic sidekick knows.

    Only the hairdresser knows for sure, right?

    Why is Stephen Harper allowing O'Connor to obfuscate the issue? Why is he allowing O'Connor and his crew to challenge a court proceeding by stating that the Canadian Charter does not apply to Canadians overseas? Why is he allowing O'Connor to further mislead Canadians and sacrifice Afghani people Canada is supposedly trying to help?

    Stephen Harper is soft on Human Rights.
    Stephen Harper is soft on Truth.

    That's why.
  24. ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada writes:
    This is unacceptable.

    The lives of our troops and our taxpayer dollars are going toward helping the Bush administration prop up their puppet regime of torturers, killers, war criminals, criminals, rapists, war lords, drug lords, and other predators and profiteers.

    They are basically thugs put in place by da boss to run the operation in Afghanistan. As in we gotta 'protect' the people there, ya know. The USA wants to secure its energy interests in that neighborhood, and these are the local mafia it's chosen to represent its interests there.

    Hamid Karzai will play this torture down, Stephen Harper will play this torture down. They'll also try to convince us that things will change. But this is simply not something that will to change anytime soon. The fact will remain that this mission is not for humanitarian purposes and is not a noble one.

    The poor Afghans tortured don't seem to hate Canada yet, at least of the ones quoted. They're generously speculating that we and our soldiers aren't aware that they get tortured. But just how long will that benefit of the doubt last? How long before this creates terrorism here?

    It's time to bring our troops back.
  25. Vancouver-Kingsway Antics-Shy Voter from Canada writes: Thanks for your polite tone also, Mr. Loucks. However, I have members of my family serving in Afghanistan as we speak, and can assure you thoughts of them and the rest of the troops are never far from my mind. Nor my family's. I've written on here before of my dread and unease about the treatment or release of people Canadian troops have detained at great risk of their life and limb. Concern for our troops is paramount, and I was mortified to hear from O'Connor's mouth that the detainees captured at such peril to Canadians are routinely bribed out, 'a revolving door' Mr. O'Connor phrased it. Certainly not released to torturers...

    Sadly, I cannot now be sure that the current government has a clue about what is happening, which is in itself horrifying since Mr. Harper is seemingly h*ll-bent on '...giving the people of Afghanistan, the children, men and women alike, the chance of a better life,' and 'A life of peace, security, freedom and justice. A life we as Canadians have for ourselves and that we seek for others.'

    Stephen Harper and others turned their backs on Maher Arar, and what did that get Canada? A $10 million lawsuit and, to quote Stephen Harper: 'It's certainly raising Canada's leadership role, once again, in the United Nations and in the world community where we used to have an important leadership role' and NOT IN A GOOD WAY!!!

    Stephen Harper is soft on Human Rights.
    Stephen Harper is soft on Truth.

    Stephen Harper must show leadership and ascertain what exactly is happening to the detainees acquired at great risk to our forces. O'Connor has to put a stop to his 'catch and release' program he's got running over there. Canada must be a beacon for human rights and not be hoodwinked into having Afghanis hate us for our suspension of human rights. Troops home February 2009, or sent to northern sectors for aid and rebuilding! It's time for other NATO forces to take the brunt.
  26. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Mr. Smith's article is a credit to journalism. If Canada wants to help bring democracy to Afghanistan it can't turn its back on prisoners and permit them to be tortured.
  27. Coralee Elder from Armstrong, Canada writes: I like the way people automatically judge an entire country based on what a few do. It is not 'the canadian way' to torture people and the average Canadian would not stand for it.

    It is embarassing that our international representatives have chosen to be spineless poodles following a policy they would not support on their own citizens. I find it disgusting that we would stand by and allow this to happen under our noses.

    But this is not a representation of Canadian beliefs instead one of men being taught to follow rules and not use common sense and decency.
    Canadians should roar about this we are for a lot of people the only thing that gives North America salvaged respect and it looks like that is going down the tube.

    War wow what a logical answer to all the worlds problems!
  28. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Don Adams from Canada writes: Torture is part of their society, their religion. Who are WE to say they're wrong? It's THEIR country.

    So Don, please explain to me again why Canada is in Afghanistan then? If it is not to bring democracy to them then why are we there?
  29. Expert Eel from Canada writes: I am ashamed of our Prime Minister who would like you to believe that he is a champion of Human Rights.

    I can't wait for the next election just to get the chance to vote his hypocritic gang of thugs back to the post Mulrooney era.
  30. Diogenes the Cynic from Canadian Warriors' Beach, Greece writes: In everything that matters in life, he who does not want to know bears full responsibility for not wanting to know. He is judged accordingly by the human observer.
  31. old curmudgeon from Armenia writes: I'm certainly comforted by the words of the Military Ombudsman that the prisoners aren't tortured except to extract information. Maybe we could hire him to run the government's Ethics Commission.
  32. Satori Zen from Warriors' Land, Canada writes: I once had the opportunity, here, to call for Canadian authorities to have 'independent' people, with unquestioned moral authority, investigate fully the conduct of all Canadians in Afghanistan (all the way to the very top), from the very beginning of our presence in that country. In a later post, a reader just bluntly and self-righteously asked me: 'WHY?'. In view of what had been made public at the time, I did not think it appropriate, to even answer his question. Well, this morning, in that article, that reader of the Globe can easily find the answer to his question. It is provided to him at length.
  33. the douglas from erie shore, Canada writes: Who decided democracy was needed and wanted in Afghanistan? Is it?
  34. G. Sam from Canada writes: When in Rome!

    The G&M is supposed to be CANADA'S NATIONAL NEWSPAPER! Just try to solve Canada's HOME problems.
  35. Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada writes: This is most damaging to Canada's image abroad. Shameful, really. The worst kind of hypocrisy, i.e. under the guise of humanitarian militarism. Could be expected. Ought to have been prevented.
  36. Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada writes: G. Sam from Canada writes: When in Rome! The G&M is supposed to be CANADA'S NATIONAL NEWSPAPER! Just try to solve Canada's HOME problems. -- THIS IS VERY MUCH, FAR TOO MUCH A HOME PROBLEM!!!
  37. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Scot Loucks from GTA, Canada writes:
    Expert Eel from Canada; Read some of the other posts and get enlightened

    What makes you think that I haven't read every post before adding my comment?

    Oh, right. you are a paid right wing troll.

    Personally, I find right wingers to be the laziest debaters. Here is the way it is and if you don't believe it, then go and research why I am right.

    Scot, do your own research and try to convince me
  38. Dark Green from WE CANADIANS HOSTEL, Cuba writes: All we need to do now is send the RCMP to help investigate!...
  39. old curmudgeon from Armenia writes: Why is it so difficult for so many of your correspondents to keep the issues separate? Are the Taliban nasty people? Yes. Should they be stopped? Yes. Does our society condone torture? No. Should it condone torture by others? No. Should those in charge turn people over knowing they will be tortured? No, if our 'principles' are to have any meaning. Does the need to catch the bad guys justify the mistreatment of the good guys? No. Is the current situation the fault of our soldiers? No, so don't drag them into this sorry mess. We got a lot of good press in the 70s from hiding the Americans from the depradations of the Iranians. Should we just have washed our hands of the situation and let the Iranians follow their own process (after all, they have the right to make their own laws, and who are we to disagree)? If not, why then are we willing to ignore mistreatment where those involved are just average Afghans? I really don't think anyone can justify the mistreatment of innocent people because mistreatment is part of their culture (or at least, the culture in which--through no fault of their own--they find themselves born). It appears that there are two approaches--the high road where our white, English-speaking ostensibly-Christian friends are involved, and the low road where the 'lesser' races are involved. And Scott--answer your own question--have you ever read the Koran? Doesn't look much different than the Bible to me.
  40. Paul Thompson from Canada writes: Offshore Directional Driller, I would politely suggest you go sit on one of your drill bits, but then again I suspect you would like it.
  41. Michael Powers from Smiths Falls, Canada writes: Unfortunately, when we get involved in this type of country's problems, we find that there are few if any really good guys. The type of torture described here is barbaric by any measurement but it is being done by Afgans, against Afgans, not by Canadians. I will not list the crimes that these victims are accused of because it would be too long for this section.
    Some of the individuals submitting their comments here, think that it would be better if we packed our bags and went home. I guess that they pine for the good old days when women were taken to the sports stadium and shot for sexual activities that would be normal in Canada. During those same good old days, girls were not allowed to be educated, females had no rights and were just chattel.
    As a father with 2 daughters, I could never accept them being treated this way and I doubt that many females in Canada would accept it either.
  42. M K from Ottawa, Canada writes: Scot Louks, questioning as done in this article is not anti-Canadian. Ever. I don't see how it is so difficult to believe that Afghan intelligence agents are using brutal torture methods to obtain information. Why would exposing that be anti-Canadian? In the Canada I call home, this is a virtue.

    No support for anyone or anything should be unconditional. I support our troops but not when they condone torture.
  43. Satya Kama from Canadian Lane, India writes: 'We hold the Afghan government to a high standard.... It's 'my responsibility to make sure they are handled properly at our end and the Afghan end,' Mr. O'Connor said ... -- For Allah's sake, RESIGN! Resign NOW.
  44. J Law from Canada writes: Better option: Seeing that our troops are working to stop from being killed at the hands of the people they are killing or caturing then maybe the other option would be to just take no prisoners, just shoot all who are trying to kill our troops. That way maybe this whimpering bleeding heart G & M will not have this to hold over our troops heads.
    This newspaper and some others are constantly twisting this story in Afganistan to be what it is not. Our troops are not in Afganistan to kill people. They are there to help rebuild a country. The only time they go out and fight people is when those people are coming in and trying to kill our troops. And yet people Like Layton, Dion and this G & M paper would have the Canadian people to believe differently. What is the G & M's objective here? I know what is the matter with Taliban Jack; I know the Liberals are miffed at being pushed out of their rightful position as the rulers of Canada, but what is the objective of the G & M? It is certainly not in support of Canada.
  45. Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada writes: Michael Powers: Some of the individuals submitting their comments here, think that it would be better if we packed our bags and went home. I guess that they pine for the good old days when women were taken to the sports stadium and shot for sexual activities that would be normal in Canada. During those same good old days, girls were not allowed to be educated, females had no rights and were just chattel.
    As a father with 2 daughters, I could never accept them being treated this way and I doubt that many females in Canada would accept it either. -- I have a daughter too. But I will never accept to be in any way complicit with anything like what I have just read being done to human beings, in that article. I will never be complicit with anything like that being done to human beings in my name, as a woman and a mother. This is literally MONSTROUS!
  46. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Handing detainees over to Afghan authorities for torture condemns Canada to stand with EVERY other oppresive regime that casually tramples over human rights.

    This is a very dark moment in our nations History and we should think very hard about the message that we are sending to every future civilized Human Being that is to come.

    What will they think of us?
  47. M G from Canada writes: Satori Zen, you should also call for investigating all the soldiers's families and any CANADIAN who support the war effort in Afghanistan.
  48. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Scot Loucks from GTA, Canada writes: old curmudgeon from Armenia writes: Why is it so difficult for so many of your correspondents to keep the issues separate? Are the Taliban nasty people? Yes. Should they be stopped? Yes. Does our society condone torture? No. Should it condone torture by others? No.

    Sorry curmudgeon... that's where I stopped reading.

    CORRECTION Scot, you stopped reading when you felt disgusted by Dick and Jane in the first grade.
  49. Henry B from Galt, Canada writes: 'praised the Canadian soldiers for their politeness, their gentle handling of captives and their comfortable detention facility' - these are the words we need to digest. 2000 Canadian soldiers cannot change the country. There is no use gnashing our teeth over what happens to the worst of the worst over there at the hands of other Afghans when we hardly have the resources to keep even children out of harms way.
  50. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Scot, don't you think that it makes you a hypocrite for berating other posters for not rreading and paying attention too EVERY SINGLE WORD of the story and every post only to add in another post that you were too lazy to read past the second sentence of curmudgeon's reply?
  51. Malcolm Thistle from Toronto, Canada writes: Now watch all the Liberals blame this mistreatment on their own country. Why do we care for the treatment of Taliban detainees more than our own country. Political correctness rises above patriotism I guess, at least when it comes to Canada.
  52. Brian Miller from Oakville, Canada writes: I am a Canadian and South African citizen. I worked on a U.S. government project in the middle east for 9 months. Right there in the trenches. Canadians citizens need to come to grips with one fact. And they are currently hiding from the reality that it is possible. Being in the custody of the Canadians, inside and outside of Canada is a cruel fate in itself. So the title to this article is outrageously biased to the thinking that Canadian custody is sound and safe. Those in authority inside and outside of Canada's security and intelligence agencies are using the best and greatest psychological and physical abuses against suspects that equals the most aggressive and well hidden human rights abuses in the world.
  53. Brian Miller from Oakville, Canada writes: Canadian authorities are using a number of illegal interrogation and investigative methods that are by far the cruelest methods around. And they are directly using the best techniques to keep their actions hidden, out of sight and covert, but they are committing these acts. So my point is its a bit bizarre to think one is in good hands with the Canadians. It is by far the truth.
  54. janfromthe bruce from Canada writes: The rationalization on this board by many to condoning the abusive treatment of people detained by Canadian troops and sent to Afghan jails/prisons is beyond comphrension. Knowingly standing by and remaining complacent to the torture, mistreatment and abuse in prisons by Afghans is criminal.
    Canadian soldiers represent Canada and I do not condon this ill treament of any person. Blaming Afghans is crap as we are part of the problem when we stand down. It just reinforces my belief that we should get the troops out now.
  55. Andy Garrett President of The Parry Sound Brewing Co., LTD from West Palm Beach, United States writes: After all the vile anti Americanism and hatred for my country, president and people spewed on this site
    since 9-11, we read about Canadians enabling and suborning torture of poor defenseless islamic terrorists,
    homicide bombers and overall pillars of the local Afghan community. I just don't know where to begin; so I won't.
    Love to all. Andy
  56. Tim Bee from Canada writes: Get rid of Hillier and O'Connor. Where does the buck stop in this government?
  57. Only Canadian from Canada writes: What there are mean and evil people out there? What we, or the United States, aren't the catalyst for all of this unacceptable behaviour. What do you mean this is the norm??? Oh my!!! Yep, the world outside of Canada is a dangerous place with dangerous and cruel people. Ethics may have currency in Canada, but they don't in Afghanistan. What I find so funny is that this is Afghan treatment of Afghans. This is how they are treated. IF we are there or not. We can't expect anything more. Why just because a detainee was transfered by Canadian soldier they shouldn't be beaten too? Otherwise you have a two tiered system and we in Canada know that is completely inacceptable.
  58. Eli Charmane from Canada writes: So, the G&M interviews former Afghan prisoners and they complain of torture by their captors, surprise surprise! I get it, G&m and other bleading hearts think we should create 'club fed' type prisons for these poor helpless souls. Has G&M interviewed any non prisoners who survived Taliban rule before the war? What happens to those prisoners captured by the Taliban, has G&M intervied them? What about the Taliban bombs in schools, hospitals and public markets, should they get rewarded for these acts of terror. I say hang them as soon as you get them that way we'll move forward, live by the sword die by the sword, keep it simple. This is not conventional warfare, you all keep forgetting who these monsters are.
  59. Happily Retired from Canada writes: And we are surprised because-----------------?
  60. Brian Miller from Oakville, Canada writes: I'm afraid my comments to try and open up your minds to what I have to say is fruitless. Your garbage and emotional rebuttals are a waste. I never mentioned anything pro-Taliban nor anti-Canadian.

    In fact, the work I did was for the U.S. Government. I am the one with the U.S. Government identity badge not you guys.

    I am the one whose work was regarded as the best step forward in some things and this was the opinion of a U.S. government official.

    So youre judgements are blinding you and your comments are pointless.

    Maybe re-read my comments and sit and think about them.
  61. Chris Lalonde from Singapore writes: Yes, what's been reported is terrible even if the detainees were terrorists. However, does anyone think if Canada pulls out, things will get better? The torture should be investigated and federal government should try as much as possible to stop it. Canada has a better chance of helping Afghanistan while our troops are there. We have more clout to make things happen ...
  62. Cup of Tea from National, Canada writes:
    10 to 15 more years eh Chuck?

    In your dreams buddy.
  63. Andy Garrett President of The Parry Sound Brewing Co., LTD from West Palm Beach, United States writes: Brian Miller: Are you saying you are one of the brutal Canadian tortures who is committing these atrocities
    and war crimes that have so grossly been charged against the USA for the past 6 years? Do you not hold
    the supporters and financiers of 9-11, London, Madrid and other cities bombings, the mass murders based
    solely on a 7th century ideology?
  64. No offence, but....... from Halifax, Canada writes: To me this article is just visible support for the Taliban who chose their side in this war with a full open mind. This article makes me think there is nothing more to write a story about so the author writes about the terrible suffering of the Taliban. Get serious for God's sake this is a war and the Taliban are working overtime to kill our soldiers. We saw just recently what the Taliban do to their prisoners; they cut their heads off with butter knives. We have lost close to 60 true Canadians in that hell hole and we are supposed to worry about a little rough play to get info that may, just may, save a life of one of our soldiers. Anyone who cries over the treatment of the Taliban should be shipped off to the trenches in Afganistan for an extended period of time. Maybe they will get hit with an axe on the head like one of are boys did while sipping tea. One way to beat the taliban is kill everyone that is caught and eventually their supply will run out!! They are cruel, controlling killers whose full purpose in life is to kill our guys and gals along with our friends. I cheer with total joy everytime a taliban is wacked, whether it be done with a gun, bat, knife or pierce of rope!
  65. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    No matter what side of the political spectrum one resides, I am still trying to figure out the goals and objectives of the G&M concerning this story? Make the government look bad? Make the Canadian Armed Forces look bad? A subliminal stance to plant seeds of doubt in the Canadian mind to get the troops home? What?
  66. Michael Powers from Smiths Falls, Canada writes: Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada - It is easy to sit in the comfort of your home, reading the News and commenting on-line about the terrible events happening around the world. In this enviroment, it is easy to say - 'This is literally MONSTROUS' or 'I would never do this'.
    You will never know what you will do to protect your love ones until you are put in that position. I think that you would find that you would do anything to protect your daughter, even kill if that was necessary. Take a look at her and ask yourself, what would you do if it were absolutely necessary.
    The NDP take a principaled position on many of these subjects and perhaps you should join them in their stand against our becoming as bad as our enemies. Thats your choice.
  67. Scot Loucks from GTA, Canada writes: Good questions Mr. Carriere.
  68. David Le Gallez from Ottawa, Canada writes: On one hand this torture, if it is in fact occurring (It was never proven that Arar was actually tortured), the Canadian troops should simply stop handing prisoners over to the Afghan police.

    On the other hand, I find it interesting that there is now the outcry about such abuses against suspected enemy combatants yet, when similar, and worse, abuses were committed against Afgan women and non conformists by the Taliban there was not a voice to be heard from the politically correct left. I wonder why it was only us evil right wing conservatives that spoke out about such abuses at that time?

    If Canada, and everyone else, were to get out of Afghanistan (as the left is demanding) what do you think the chances are that these abuses would stop? I think it is very likely that the Taliban will regain power and ensure that women are brutally put back in their place as the Taliban sees it.

    That is a nice set of double standards you guys have.
  69. Bill Thompson from Calgary, Canada writes: Canadians are shocked and horrified over the methods employed by the methods employed by the Afghan government and its agencies to protect itself? Of course they are forgetting completely that the Afghan government and its people are in a struggle for their very existence against an enemy that would not hesitate, if the situation were reversed, inflict far worse upon them. Come on people…wake up. The world is harsh and the Afghans are in a fight for their very survival. Stop imposing your elitist, morally superior, liberal attitude onto a situation for which you have absolutely no comprehension. In fact I admire their restraint for there are far worse methods of torture out there than described in his article.
  70. Eye Sore from Dog Pound, Alberta, Canada writes: By handing over Afghan prisoners to the Afghan police authorities, where
    they know torture is to be used on them, Canadian forces are complicit in
    war crimes.

    After the Nuremberg trials, claiming that 'I was just following orders' will be no defence for being a conduit to illegal acts.
  71. Rex's Experiment from T-Dot, Canada writes: What should Canada do with them? Send them to Canada where the Liberal judges let them loose on the streets in case there was a violation of rights? As for war crimes, we are not fighting a nation in war we are fighting a terrorist faction and I don't think war crimes is applicable there.
  72. Paul Malouf from Montreal, Canada writes: To answer R. Carriere question: The Globe
  73. Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada writes: Andy Garrett : After all the vile anti Americanism and hatred for my country, president and people spewed on this site since 9-11, we read about Canadians enabling and suborning torture of poor defenseless islamic terrorists, homicide bombers and overall pillars of the local Afghan community. I just don't know where to begin; so I won't. Love to all. Andy -- ... So I'll complete from your beginning... We, Canadians, must take full responsibility for what has been happening in our name in Afghanistan. Many of us do. Yet what has been happening there that we have been complicit with, does not change anything about the US. It only goes to show America's worst diseases are extermely contagious. Which is WHY, so many of us, Canadians, have made the diagnostics you refer to, have always been and still are against any Canadian military presence in Afghanistan. I am one of those Canadians.
  74. Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada writes: f c from Canada writes: I'm siorry, are we supposed to show sympathy for the people that killed our soldiers. I daer the G&M to deliver this newspaper to one of the familes who lost a loved one to these people......you mighht not like the react -- This has nothing to do with sympathy, everything to do with our being human. We need to preserve OUR HUMANITY. If our troops lose their humanity in the process, they've lost not only the war; they lost everything. If their families lose their humanity in the process, they've lost not only their loved one, not only the war, they've lost all. If we lose our humanity in the process, we've lost the war and all.
  75. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: This is a surprise? When you are allied with an incompetent, corrupt, self-serving, and criminal government like Karzai's....what do you expect? Like most nations in that part of the world, the use of torture on their enemies, either real or percieved comes naturally.
  76. Eye Sore from Dog Pound, Alberta, Canada writes: OK, Rex's Experiment from T-Dot, if Canadians cannot or should not be tried for complicity in war crimes, then let it be for crimes against humanity.

    Canada has signed on to conventions against the torture of prisoners; prisoners in this case who may have simply got caught up in a dragnet by being in the wrong place at the wrong time -- like, say, those 32 murdered innocents at Virgina Tech a week ago.
  77. M K from Canada writes: Why are so many here quick to believe that everyone who was arrested or tortured were necessarily Taliban? There hasn't been a trial. We don't know people's backgrounds. Sure, some can be scum-of-the-Earth Taliban militants fresh from a NATO kill, but others can be just picked up off the street by a frustrated Afghan policeman.

    Those who use 'liberal' as a swear word seem to see life in black and white. There are more than only enemies or allies. I'm sorry Bill Thompson but I totally have to call you out. You can't support a war on the ethical grounds of helping a society get a democratic footing then turn the other cheek when its agents commit atrocities. It's a morally and logically irreconcilable position. Yeah, we don't understand what they are going through, but it's certainly not 'survival.' Afghanistan has been in a fairly regular state of civil war and intervention for most of its history. The very state of Afghanistan is a manufactured containment of various tribes with old animosities and allegiances who seemingly don't forget easily.

    Sure, dismiss my arguments as liberal tripe, but if standing against torture is considered something unsavoury than I question your sense of morality, not mine.

    Oh, and David Le Gallez, you are absolutely right.
  78. Gilles Hudicourt from Moncton (today), Canada writes: This is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait till some of the prisoners handed over by Canadians troops to the Afghans, and now listed as 'missing', are found in a shallow grave with their hand bound in the back with tie raps.
  79. mr motoc from Canada writes: People in authority engage in torture NOT to 'gain valuable intelligence information,' but for only one purpose: because they are perverts who derive sexual pleasure from the process of torturing others.

    No wonder that Communists, religious fanatics, and right-wing morons defend the practice.
  80. Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada writes: Michael Powers : Henriette Heroux - It is easy to sit in the comfort of your home... to say - 'This is literally MONSTROUS' or 'I would never do this'. You will never know what you will do to protect your love ones until you are put in that position. I think that you would find that you would do anything to protect your daughter, even kill if that was necessary. Take a look at her and ask yourself, what would you do if it were absolutely necessary. -- With all due respect, no Canadian is in Afghanistan to protect his daughter. The Afghans who do what is described in that article are not, in so doing, protecting their own children. What this article is about has nothing to do with protecting one's loved ones. To simply assume it does, is by no means convincing. Arguments are missing. As a matter of fact, arguments have been missing since before Canada was even involved in Afghanistan. That adventure was never debated as it should have been, in Canada. That is the first scandal, the first source of what has become a tragedy. -- As for it being easy to say 'This is literally MONSTROUS', wherever one sits or moves, I submit you are quite wrong, given so few Canadians seem prepared to do so, while so many others are busy trying to defend the indefensible, to justify the unjustifiable, to humanize the inhuman, and to make acceptable to us whiat is nothing but a revolting state of affairs.
  81. Gilles Hudicourt from Moncton (today), Canada writes: David Le Gallez from Ottawa, you wish to think that this abuse of women began when the Taliban took power? The Communist government supported by the Soviets was a secular the government that really promoted the equality of the sexes and fought religious integrisim. The Western Backed Mujahedin who fought the Soviets with US, German, Pakistani, Iranian and Saudi money blew up schools, murdered teachers and kept Afghan from sending their girls to schools, but no-one ever talked about it because it was all ok in the name of fighting Soviets. Reagan called them 'Freedom Fighters'. Many of those people are mow in the Karzai government and others became Taliban, but none have women's rights, religious freedom or secular government on their agenda.
  82. jiri Z from Canada writes: The Alliance forces have to stop taking prisoners, period.

    There is not enough 5 star hotels in the Middle East to hold them. Besides all the rooms are booked by the Democrats and filled by peace activists from all over the world.
  83. Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada writes: Green Jerry from Canada writes: This story does my heart good. I like knowing the scum who kill or attack our soldiers are 'tortured'. -- Well then enjoy! Enjoy!! I'm off.
  84. Bill Thompson from Calgary, Canada writes: MK: You are absolutely right and I stand exposed. However I said I understand their methods. I never said I approve of them. On the contrary the Canadian soldiers are setting a fine example of conduct as everyone agrees. What this article illustrates is where we are at with respect to bringing the Afghan forces along to our standards. They have made progress but still have a long way to go. I continue to support the mission as progress is being made. There may even come a time when the Afghan forces do not see the need to apply such methods of torture against their enemies. Don’t forget however, we employed not too dissimilar tactics in WW II against our enemies&8230;a scant 60 years ago.
  85. Carolyn Hammond from Toronto, Canada writes: Does anyone know exactly whom we write letters to in government to voice our feelings about this situation? I intend to exercise my freedom of speech and let our government know my vote is at stake if this conduct continues.
  86. robert birks from Ottawa, Canada writes: Guess what. The subjects are Afghanistan nationals ( or foreign jihadis ), in Afghanistan, being subjected by Afghanistan nationals to treatements normal to Afghanistan military and police forces, and as expected by those being subjected to the treatment.

    Thinks you can successfully impose western/christian values in such an environment? Grow up.
  87. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    This is all so confusing for all of us so very comfortable in our homes. This situation is not a question of pro or anti war.

    The question becomes, so what do we do? We capture someone not knowing who or what he is-killer or innocent-turn him over-then somehow get blamed for torture, or Afghni torture, according to this most curious G&M article.

    So I ask, from the comfort of our homes where we know we will not get shot at or killed by a roadside bomb, what do we do?
  88. Allan Eizinas from Simcoe, Canada writes: .
    I have no doubt that the Afghan 'interrogation techniques' are far more effective and efficient than anything that the Canadians might try.

    Unfortunately, I doubt that those who have been tortured and abused can differentiate between the peaceful mandate of the Canadian soldier who captured them and the abusive pain inflicted by their torturers.

    I doubt if those who have been tortured and return to their 80 member families in the villages will be singing the praises of the Canadians. So much for winning the hearts and minds of that group.
  89. John Gilks from Canada writes: The posters defending torture completely miss the point. They claim that the Canadian forces are protecting 'democracy' and 'human rights' so that girls can go to school etc. Rubbish! We have been suckered into a tribal war of the kind which has been endemic in Afghanistan for centuries. We are spending Canadian lives and Canadian funds to support one lot of murderous, corrupt, torturing tribal warlords against another lot. When will we learn what the British in the 19th century and the USSR in the 20th learnt the hard way?
  90. Diogenes the Cynic from Canadian Warriors' Beach, Greece writes: Gilles Hudicourt from Moncton (today): The Western Backed Mujahedin who fought the Soviets with US, German, Pakistani, Iranian and Saudi money blew up schools, murdered teachers and kept Afghan from sending their girls to schools, but no-one ever talked about it because it was all ok in the name of fighting Soviets. Reagan called them 'Freedom Fighters'. -- Thank you for putting this conflict in perspective and for reminding us of the role the West played, in Afghanistan, in the recent past.
  91. Tim Bee from Canada writes: ....R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    No matter what side of the political spectrum one resides, I am still trying to figure out the goals and objectives of the G&M concerning this story? Make the government look bad? Make the Canadian Armed Forces look bad? A subliminal stance to plant seeds of doubt in the Canadian mind to get the troops home? What?....

    Inform the Canadian public maybe?
  92. Diogenes the Cynic from Canadian Warriors' Beach, Greece writes: Carolyn Hammond from Toronto, Canada writes: Does anyone know exactly whom we write letters to in government to voice our feelings about this situation? I intend to exercise my freedom of speech and let our government know my vote is at stake if this conduct continues. -- Just e-mail directly the Prime Minister (pm@pm.gc.ca), with copies to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense, etc. Their e-mail addresses are on the Internet on each ministry's site.
  93. A Concerned Citizen of the West from Toronto, Canada writes: It is completely unrealistic to apply modern civilization standards and morals to a backward, medieval, Muslim population. These people are hundreds of years behind the times. They may as well be from a different planet. The west cannot change this backward society especially with its Taliban-type, fundamentalist Islamic beliefs. Their culture dooms their nation and tribal warfare and religious fanaticism and self-righteous cruelty are woven into their value system. Shooting women in burquas on the soccer field on Saturday and hanging miscreants by the neck from a tree in a public place are the fundamentalist Islamic and tribal way of the Taliban-type mind. By the standards of modern, civilized culture, cruelty and evil abound in this primitive culture.

    To the Canadian troops I say, - Just duck the roadside bombs and the suicide bombers and get the hell back home where you belong!
  94. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: There is no excuse for this. Canadian Forces may have treated the detainees properly (although that is debatable and the subject of an MPCCC investigation as we speak), but it is evident that they KNOWINGLY handed PWs over to Afghan authorities with the knowledge that such detainees were subject to torture, abuse or murder. That is not acceptable.

    Concerns were raised to Mr. Day by some personnel (in the CF or DFAIT?) during one of his photo op visits. I gather that that was prior to Minister O'Connor deliberately misleading the House of Commons, on the advice of Colonel Gleeson and the CF JAG.

    Today we have a new suspected Canadian war criminal, along with General Hillier, much of the NDHQ brass, all of the commanders of the Afghan mission, the Commanders of the Army, Mr. O'Connor, Mr. O'Connor's staff, certain persons in the JAG (like Colonel Gleeson) -- Stockwell Day.

    Is there anyone in Ottawa who will put a stop to this and salvage what little legitimacy and honour the CF and Canada have remaining?

    Seeking Charter exclusion is NOT the way to go.
  95. Kim Huynh from Canada writes: For those who argue against our troops handing over prisoners to the Afghani government, what is you solution? Setting up a system of prisons and run it ourselves in that country? We have got our own problems with our prison system here at home. Our troops already overstretched their resources doing war fighting and system development at the same time. Get real and get practical. Besides, do our troops speak their languages ( many dialects) to perform the tasks? Not too long ago, there were similar outcry when images of Canadian special forces captured the terrorists and handed over to the American forces were flashed over the TV screens.
  96. True North from Canada writes: Steve Harper and his government are soft on human rights. They told Canadians we were in Afghanistan fighting for human rights but then demonstrated that they don't even know how these rights are administered nor monitored.
  97. David Le Gallez from Ottawa, Canada writes: Gilles Hudicourt from Moncton: I am no fan of communism or religious zealots of any stripe. Communists are just another branch of the political left while the religious zealots give the rest of us conservatives a bad name. To make my position clear: I am a fiscal conservative who believes that everyone should have equal rights regardless of racial background, religious beliefs, skin colour, or gender. As far as religion is concerned, I am an atheist who believes that politically our society should be secular, giving no special preference to any religion, while allowing people the freedom to practice their religion in their private lives so long as those religious practices do not impose their beliefs on anyone who is not interested, do not go against the policy of equal rights and do not attempt to bring the religion into the governing of of the state. Though my lack of religion may seem to imply that I am a liberal thinker, I tend to be conservative in nature because I find most liberals (including socialists) are fiscally irresponsible with a tax an spend mentality.

    All that being said: To address what I think your point is, In any contest (game, sport, politics, war) where there are more than 2 players there are often time when deals must be made. The old expression 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend' often applies. People often find themselves in situations where it is to their advantage to team up with someone who they would otherwise be an adversary of. After this advantage no longer exists the alliance is devolved. Have you every played the game RISK. This strategy is used. This is why the use sided with Sadam once and then was against him. As you pointed out, the West had once sided with the Mujahedin and now condemns it. This is why the Russians fought with Iran and now seeks to protect them (at least politically) from US invasion. If one take a simple stance of 'I don't like them' one could fine one's self in bad position.
  98. No offence, but....... from Halifax, Canada writes: Well I solved the problem for all you do goers; we will immediately stop handing Taliban over to the Afgans and build nice clean warm prisoner camps with running water, T.V.s, etc. and put the Taliban in them. I am sure all you do gooders will welcome a generous increase in taxes in order to pay for the housing of these killers of Canadian soldiers. Does that make you happy?? Maybe we can even pay for your travel to visit these scum bags and take your care packages to them. Ohh.......and by the way rot in Hell while you care for the enemy and be assured I will personally try to have your passports cancelled so you cannot return!!
  99. Former Liberal from Niagara Falls, Canada writes: War is always ugly and it's always hard to tell who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. These kinds of allegations emerge in every war, and are levelled against all sides. The Western world is dealing with an enemy--radical Islam--with which negotiation is not possible. How can you negotiate with any group that has as its primary goal the destruction of your people? Not just your way of life, but your people. If we want to survive, we need to contain this enemy and find ways to undercut their propaganda machine and financial backers. The torture bit seems to be based on the assumption that 'interrogating' the little fish may lead to the bigger fish. Given what we already know about how Al Qeada works, I'm not sure there's much point. However, unless the Western world wants to invest a lot more time, money and people and actually run Afghanistan, how can we stop Afghans from torturing other Afghans? Seems like the only thing they hate worse than us is Al Qeada.
  100. Diogenes the Cynic from Canadian Warriors' Beach, Greece writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes: This is all so confusing for all of us... This situation is not a question of pro or anti war. The question becomes, so what do we do? ... what do we do? -- With respect, Mr. Carriere, all this has to do with being pro or anti war. I believe one must learn to be ANTI war (against a 'war', for instance, that we know, from the past and from the very beginning, can only lead to this!), just like one must learn to say 'NO!'Even to friends. Even to blackmailers. That being said, assuming some just can't wait to go and intervene militarily in our name, somewhere, they should do the impossible to preserve our hardly earned Canadian values: If need be, open Canadian prisons in Afghanistan and keep the prisoners under decent conditions... not like in Somalia... That is for the Officers and the Top Military Commanders to see to it we win the war, first by remaining HUMAN, both taking prisoners and within the confines of that Canadian prison (no Abu Ghraib, no Guantanamo!!!). Does not mean no use of reasonable force... I know, it's not 100% simple, but I know this much: We need to preserve our humanity or else... carry the heavy burden of dehumanization the rest of our lives... which means being real, unmitigated losers until we die (ultimate losers...).
  101. Paul Rogers from Canada writes: Don't worry - its in good hands.

    It's 'my responsibility to make sure they are handled properly at our end and the Afghan end,' Mr. O'Connor said.

    This is a disgrace and Canada is loosing the good reputation we had internationally as an honest broker and defender of human rights.
  102. Alexander Watts from Turks and Caicos Islands writes: It would be interesting for the G & M to publish an article about the way the Talibans handle their prisoners....
    Unfortunately, with the G & M, all of the Amnesty and human rights groups, it is always a one way street and we never get any comments in respect of the way terrorists handle their prisoners.
  103. Cryin Outloud from Canada writes: From the article:“Did he know?†Mr. Noori asked with a look of honest curiosity. “Do the Canadians know what happens to us?â€

    Certainly our military knows. Certainly O'Connor and Harper know and now many more know.

    Last night on TVO Human Edge had a documentary called:'Gitmo: The New Rules Of War' and because the USA is involved in Afghanistan, these new rules will apply. And, because Canada's military is nothing more than a subsidiary of the US army their rules will apply.

    The very saddest reality is that we have become our own worse enemy. No one is worse than we are. If we are at war with a country that did not invade ours, we are worse than they are. And since Canada's military has become nothing in the way of a security force to protect Canada as a country, they are nothing but mercenaries and will commit whatever atrocities their repulsive trainers tell them to do. If our military really was humane they would be refusing to fight under these new 'rules of war'.

    Harper is a follower and has no intention of leading on this issue.
  104. lad lladie from Canada writes: R. Carrier, If Guantanamo and Abu Grahib are big stories, so is this story about Canadians handing over their prisoners to Afghans torturers. Graeme Smith reported this story because he is a reporter and reporter report stories. What was he supposed to do? See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil?
    And if you want a sense of purpose for this story you should consider whether fighting 'monsters' is turning us into equal 'monsters' or not. If yes, ask yourself whether it's worthed it.
  105. m v from Canada writes: I'm quite possitive that if they stop torturing prisoners and releasing them on bail unitl trial that most would be very greatful and return to their court appearance and tell their captures everything they need to know to stop the Taliban. Sound right to anyone?!?!?!?
  106. David Le Gallez from Ottawa, Canada writes: Alexander Watts from Turks and Caicos Islands writes: 'It would be interesting for the G & M to publish an article about the way the Talibans handle their prisoners....
    Unfortunately, with the G & M, all of the Amnesty and human rights groups, it is always a one way street and we never get any comments in respect of the way terrorists handle their prisoners.'

    Alexander: Fully agreed. This was my point exactly in my initial post.
  107. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: All it takes for the heartless and cruel to reign is for good men to stand by and do nothing. This is precisely what our soldiers are being asked to do. The fact that they know what is happening to these people is enough to indict them. I don't give a damn what your ideological excuse is when I read reports like this: 'They tell their stories with quiet voices and trembling hands. They can't sleep, they complain of chronic pain and they forget the simplest things, such as remembering to pull down their pants when they use the toilet.'

    When you have become so callous concerning the suffering of men that lumping the innocent in with the guilty gives you no pause, then you are no better than the enemy you claim to hate.
  108. Dark Green from Canadian Bay, Cuba writes: Alexander Watts : It would be interesting for the G & M to publish an article about the way the Talibans handle their prisoners.... -- It would be of no interest whatsoever. We are not in the business of imitating the Talibans or any bunch of terrorists, no more than we are in the business of imitating the Americans. We are there to promote quite a different set of values from theirs. Wasn't that made clear before we went in? -- No. It indeed seems it was not. THAT is the source of the tragedy!
  109. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Kim Huynh from Canada writes: For those who argue against our troops handing over prisoners to the Afghani government, what is you solution? Setting up a system of prisons and run it ourselves in that country?

    YES. Allocating sufficient resources for the occupation of another country. That is not accomplished with 2,000 troops. If you are going to engage in combat, then you had bloody well do it properly. That means reconstruction, dealing with refugees, dealing with PWs, a supporting medical infrastructure (i.e. Field Hospitals), supporting engineers, restoration of judicial system etc. You cannot carry out a successful occupation and transition simply at the barrel of a gun.
  110. Fred Heff from cowtownCalgary, Canada writes: Paul Rogers from Canada writes: Don't worry - its in good hands.

    This is a disgrace and Canada is loosing the good reputation we had internationally as an honest broker and defender of human rights.

    Paul ! Did you hear that on CBC or some other Liebrano( Pearson died when) Toronto Star or from Steven Lewis. What friggin year is it Paul.
  111. Paul Rogers from Canada writes: No offence in Halifax, - you sound like a pretty angy guy. Have you ever read the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of prisoners? There is a link with this article which give you a brief summary. There are rules which have been agreed upon by most countries, including Canada and Afghanistan, pertaining to the treatment of prisoners. These rules are being broken by Canada and Afghanistan. That is the issue - oh yeah, and people are being tortured - that's rather important to.

    If Canada chooses to be involved in the military operations in Afghanistan, it has the obligation to do so properly, or stay home.
    If we don't ensure that the detainees (they are suspects until proven guilty) are treated humanely, how can we claim to be promoting a better way of life than they are experienced under the Taliban?
  112. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Diogenes the Cynic from Canadian Warriors' Beach,: G'morning!

    For the most part, I AM anti-war, but the point is, we are there now, with no retreat for at least a couple of years. While that may not be the wishes for several, that is the reality-so again, I throw it back to you-what to do?
  113. Jack Ryan from Toronto, Canada writes: This is an amazing piece of journalism. Amazing.
  114. BaZ MaN from Canada writes: Taleban abducted and beheaded an Afghan intelligence service employee and struck one of the agency's vehicles with a remote-controlled bomb in a separate attack, killing six employees and wounding three today in Afghaistan. Would this be more exeptible to you lefty whiners? You people have no clue of who we are fighting do you!
  115. Pete H from Canada writes: GRAEME SMITH & G&M - Mission Accomplished - Tomorrow is another day.
  116. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: 'In order to save the village, we had to destroy it'. Winning those Hearts and Minds - full speed ahead. And then there was that little item from the weekend, saying that the Afghan army wouldn't be ready to 'take over and do the job' in 2009. And still we have fellow citizens here who just don't get it. Gung-Ho. All the Way. Osama bin Laden has won.
  117. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Alexander Watts & David Le Gallez: Ever heard of a principle? You know the part where you defend the freedom and justice you claim to cherish by actually practising it? How the 'taliban' treat their prisoners is only relavent if you seek to justify inhumane acts. We have claimed to be the righteous, the just and the true. To act any other way shows us to be hypocrits, and to point to another to justify evil acts proves us to be dishonorable.

    Anybody can claim to be virtuous when it requires no effort. The proof however lies in what we do when things are difficult.
  118. Andrew D from Toronto, Canada writes: Alexander Watts, you are remarkably misinformed. Human rights groups, including Amnesty, devote the bulk of their time to the most odious regimes. Indeed, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch and the like were amongst the few that were persistently looking to call attention to the appalling record of the Taliban regime...a record few seemed interested in until 9/11.

    Rightly, they also take the time to critique the human rights records of those countries that have agreed to the principles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We have accepted a higher standard than the Taliban and other such groups, and should be held to them. It shows how we have advanced as a civilization. Unless you are of the mind that we should race to the bottom and judge ourselves at the level of countries that do not respect due process and the primacy of the rule of law for all, then your comments are non-sensical.
  119. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Paul Rogers from Canada - The Geneva Conventions and their Protocols and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court are not just international treaties, but they have been adopted by express Acts of the Parliament of Canada - the Geneva Conventions Act and the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act. Both are available on the Department of Justice website.

    Not only is the CF and government deviating from international law, but also domestic law in the form of an Act of Parliament.

    Are there CF or DOJ lawyers advising the government to deliberately ignore and break and Act of Parliament? To commit war crimes? Is the NDHQ brass telling the CF or DOJ lawyers what to plead before a court? Has any JAG officer resigned over this matter? What other acts are being ignored? The Charter? The Constitution? Are we going to hear the Bush/Gonzalez argument that the CF can do this through crown prerogative powers?

    Our concept of the Rule of Law is being undermined.

    I think it is time to stop this.
  120. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    lad lladie from Canada: I won't disagree with you , yet this has all been covered before. What we never read about are examples of us 'winning' or concrete and solid examples of 'progress' or what our NATO allies are doing and how they are 'progressing'.........
  121. Paul Rogers from Canada writes: Fred Heff from Calgary - fortunately Canada still has a pretty good reputation internationally as a defender of human rights and an honest broker. Where did I hear that? - diplomatic community, international experts, my own travels and conversations, conferences, studies....
    However, don't take my word for it though, do your own investigation.

    Its a hard won reputation worth preserving. I also know of Canada's failures, both internally and abroad when we have failed to protect human rights. However, the obligation is to act when they are brought to light, not to attempt to justify them. Because if you do, how can we claim to be bringing a better life to the Afghans?
  122. FlashFrozen Eggplant from Canada writes: I dont see an issue here? We are fighting the Klingon and Borg here folks. You speak as if they are human.
  123. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Green Jerry from Canada writes: I have a simple solution. No more prisoners. Shoot em all.

    Green, I hope you are being cynically witty and not serious. If you are being serious, then I remind you that giving no quarter is a war crime as is the encouragement of giving no quarter - by military or civilian. That is in part what the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act is about. It is also a lesson well known if one bothers to follow the case histories of the two modern tribunals (ICTY and ICTR) and the International Criminal Court (ICC).

    Please try to be more responsible with your comments.
  124. Dark Green from Canadian Bay, Cuba writes: R. Carriere : Diogenes the Cynic from Canadian we are there now, with no retreat for at least a couple of years. While that may not be the wishes for several, that is the reality-so again, I throw it back to you-what to do? -- Mr. Carriere, again with respect, we need to be able to think 'outside the box', as they like to say. That means: 1. 'it is not true that 'we are there now with no retreat for at least a couple of years' -- anytime a majority of Canadians can choose to force Canadian politicians to call an open-ended truce, negotiate and have the troops leave. This is a democracy and we have that choice! 2. We even have the choice to force an immediate withdrawal, like Spain from Iraq; 3. We have the choice to demand the resignation of the Minister of Defense. 4. We have the choice to demand a complete reorientation of our role in Afghanistan. 5. We also have the choice to change government and kick those unprincipled amateurs out, with a thank you kick in the ... We are not impotent, Mr. Carriere, we have innumerable choices. I am sure you yourself can come to the rescue and tell us about many other choices open to us that would be immensely better than the status quo. Your imagination is sometimes quite fertile, judging from your posts on this site. Salutations.
  125. David Le Gallez from Ottawa, Canada writes: Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: 'Alexander Watts & David Le Gallez: Ever heard of a principle?'

    No one is implying we imitate the Taliban, however, to keep things in context it would be useful to know just how little our adversaries value life and decency. As per my first post, we should stop handing prisoners over to Afghan police. But what do we do with them then. I find these article just serve to fuel contempt for our own troops and for also, for some reason, fuel anti Americanism.

    Lets get a balanced view.

    Paul Rogers from Canada writes: 'No offence in Halifax, - you sound like a pretty angy guy. Have you ever read the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of prisoners?'

    Paul: I think the Taliban, Sadam, Viet-Com (historically) missed that class. So how exactly does one defeat an enemy when you have to follow the rules but the enemy does not?
  126. Rick McNaulty from Calgary, Canada writes: Snif sniff. I think I'm going to cry.
  127. Dark Green from Canadian Bay, Cuba writes: Orest Zarowsky : 'In order to save the village, we had to destroy it'. Winning those Hearts and Minds - Thank you for reminding us of one of the most famous quotes of the Vietnam war... and of the fate of that poor village, Ben Tre! Your remark is so appropriate on the absurdity involved in defeating one's own purpose.
  128. No offence, but....... from Halifax, Canada writes: Paul Rogers: They very next time a coffin comes back from Afganistan drapped with a Maple Leaf Flag I will get up real close to it and recite your concern about the fact the Geneva Convention may have been broken as stated in a G&M report. I will leave to you the task of expressing your concerns to the family of the victim. That a go....Hotshot!!
  129. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Somehow I don't think certain people are understanding the full impact of this on the soldiers. I have a buddy who served with Dallaire in Rawanda. They were forced to sit by and essentially do nothing while many many people were murdered all around them. Afterward they had to bury the burned, mutilated corpses of hundreds of children, their parents, grandparents...etc.

    When he returned I barely knew him. His medications make him lethargic, but he still doesn't sleep because of the nightmares. He smokes more than I've ever seen someone smoke. He has violent mood swings and sometimes you can't get his attention no matter what you do. He's pushed his wife away to the point where she know lives with her mom.

    War creates nothing but victums. There has to be another way.
  130. Dark Green from Canadian Bay, Cuba writes: Green Jerry from Canada writes: I have a simple solution. No more prisoners. Shoot em all. -- Do you only have the faintest idea what this means for the safety of our troops, for their chance of surviving and returning to their loved ones, in Canada? With all due respect, as a commander in Afghanistan, I would not even give you permission to clean the latrines.
  131. Ranald Walton from Hamilton, Canada writes: JD Wood from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Disgusting. But it looks as if the paranoid, fearful Americans are on the board already, trying to spread their schizophrenic beliefs that all Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq want to swim across the ocean and get them.'

    These boards have become outlets for bigots spreading their anti-American filth. God Bless the USA.
  132. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Dark Green from Canadian Bay: Good Morning and thanks for the response.

    Not much to add to your post, except that perfect world is not one for the near future.....unless you know something I don't?
  133. BaZ MaN from Canada writes: Look anyone we turn over is someone that was trying to kill our people not the family of farmers living off their land. Sorry I find it funny that the left would support a people that wish to kill our soldiers but then again the left support Iran’s nuclear program so nothing is beyond their hypocrisy on current events. If someone is shooting and trying to kill our people I would say their heart and mind is already made up and is a lost hope anyway. The left is outraged when our troops die from attack from the Taleban and are outraged by the way we treat their people when we catch them. So you people play any angel to stop our action so why should we listen to anything you people say. That’s right we don’t, so get out there and show your anger protest and help no one or raise some cash and feed some who need it but do something as your whining is really sad.
  134. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: You know what I find interesting? No matter the argument, no matter the logic, no matter how obviously wrong our involvment has become, some still think that it is enough to point out that our 'enemy is evil'. Frankly I don't buy it. I've seen enough war in my lifetime to know better. In order to secure support the administrations pushing war ALWAYS paint the enemy as evil incarnate. It's propoganda 101. For those in doubt read a history book that covers all the wars since 1812. You'd be surprised how the same crap is recycled generation after generation. Educate yourself, because those who would send your sons do die rely on your ignorance to advance their agendas.
  135. Fiona Hammond from Ottawa, writes: 'G. Sam from Canada writes: When in Rome! The G&M is supposed to be CANADA'S NATIONAL NEWSPAPER! Just try to solve Canada's HOME problems. '

    When these farmers, etc. eventually join the Taliban due to their fury at being handed over for torture, who do you think they will blame for handing them over? Whose fault will it be if they then work against the country that sent the soldiers over in order to 'free' them?

    That's right. Canada. Thus it is very much Canada's problem.
  136. lad lladie from Canada writes: O.K., the Taliban, the Viet Congs and Saddam missed the class on the treatment of prisoners. But invading their countries because they're evil and start preaching them democracy while we imitate their ways of doing things is not very productive or going to make us win. (In fact in Vietnam and Iraq the preachers lost)
  137. Paul Rogers from Canada writes: No Offence and David La Gallez - I'll try one last time. If we don't hold ourselves to our own standards for the treatment of prisonsers (and as IR pointed out, we are legally required to do by international law as well as the laws of our country) how can we claim to be bringing 'A life of peace, security, freedom and justice. A life we as Canadians have for ourselves and that we seek for others.' (Steven Harper).
    Do you not see the contradiction here?
    Handing over prisoners who will be tortured is in complete violation of international law, domestic law, our stated goals in Afghanistan, human rights, morality and common decency. Have I missed anything?
  138. Ontario Man from whitby, Canada writes: In our race towards a multicultural society and our hurry to embrace all cultures, I guess we have forgotten that some cultures are less dainty than others. The Afghan treatment of prisoners is based on a long cultural and regional history. Sadly, in the PET Canada, such cultural differences are welcomed, nourished, embraced and often financed by the taxpayer.
  139. tao chi from Friendly Province, China writes: My dear Canadian friends, if I may, at this stage, your only concern should be to save your human souls.
  140. Chris Hay from Regina, SK, Canada writes: This isn't a surprise. What is surprising though, is the logic used by otherwise 'sane' people on here - 'they're killing our soldiers, so this is justified'. That is tantamount to an admission that we are, in effect, no better, no more civilized than the 'terrorists' themselves. The hallmark of a civilized and intelligent society is how it treats others - especially those with whom it disagrees (sort of 'Christian' do unto others as ye would have done unto you). Stooping to levels of torture and reasons of justification for it, sadly reveal we are in fact no better, and no more civilized than those with whom we fight against. I would have thought Canada stood for far more than that.
  141. M G from Canada writes: This is front page news? The G&M draging our soldiers's reputation in the mud to increase readership.

    What a disgrace this paper has become.
    Truly sickening.
  142. FlashFrozen Eggplant from Canada writes: According to Philosper King the Taliban enemy is not 'evil' . I guess shooting little girls and raping their mothers while beheading their fathers is acceptable. I'm assuming Philospher Queen would like to see a more extreme form of violence before labeling the enemy 'evil'.
  143. Susie Q from Canada writes: What are we doing in Afghanistan? Arresting farmers, tailors, drivers? Subjecting them to torture and turning a blind eye? Is this the new Canadian policy? Herding 'suspects' like cattle to their slaughter? Where is the justice for these men?

    Apparently the U.S. is battle-weary and Canada is picking up the slack as the new oppressive force in world affairs.

    Do the honourable thing, Mr. Harper. Pull our troops out before we are forever tarnished...
  144. Fiona Hammond from Ottawa, writes: 'No offence, but....... from Halifax, Canada writes: To me this article is just visible support for the Taliban who chose their side in this war with a full open mind.'

    Why? It interviewed normal citizens who were caught up, none of who were tried or convicted as Taliban members. Just because you live over there doesn't automatically make you Talibani.
  145. Rex's Experiment from T-Dot, Canada writes: Eye Sore from Dog Pound, Alberta, Canada writes: OK, Rex's Experiment from T-Dot, if Canadians cannot or should not be tried for complicity in war crimes, then let it be for crimes against humanity.

    I'm fine with that, providing the Canadian government also demands that groups like Tamil Tigers, IRA and other terror factions are tried the same way.
  146. Kim Huynh from Canada writes: I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Kim Huynh from Canada writes: For those who argue against our troops handing over prisoners to the Afghani government, what is you solution? Setting up a system of prisons and run it ourselves in that country? YES. Allocating sufficient resources for the occupation of another country. That is not accomplished with 2,000 troops. If you are going to engage in combat, then you had bloody well do it properly. That means reconstruction, dealing with refugees, dealing with PWs, a supporting medical infrastructure (i.e. Field Hospitals), supporting engineers, restoration of judicial system etc. You cannot carry out a successful occupation and transition simply at the barrel of a gun. Sure enough, but we are not there to 'occupy' that country. Out mission is to stabilize the country and help build a better country than that envisioned by the the outlaw Taliban. We are part of NATO, and we can not be responsible of the whole project. Yes, if we intended to invade and occupy, we must be prepared for all that, but this is not the case.
  147. Larry Lootsteen from Canada writes: Wow, is this really where we have gone and what we have become? We as Canadians use to wear our decency on our sleeves. We used to be proud of who we are and our role in the world. A Canada that would not put anyone in harms way intentionally. A Canada that helped people and that was our primary role and our primary goal. Whoever thinks Afghans are not human has not understood their history nor the history of the region. Because of cruelty on some's part now suddenly we should be like them? Or worse, turn a blind eye? As we have become a fighting force in Afghanistan are we surprised that some want us gone? And because of that, so you now see handing over prisoners to torture as okay? Sure, label me bleeding heart liberal. Call me a coward. Call me whatever you like. Taking a principled stand does not require name calling. You may think it's a great thing that prisoners get tortured because those people may hurt our troops. I think we have lost our morality to believe that. Canada was considered the moral high ground in the world. That reputation is rapidly disappearing. We are just another aggressor on the world stage. You may think it's great and wonderful that we are taking a combat role. I am infinitely saddened by it. I liked that we were the peace keepers, fixers, the rebuilders. I was proud of my country for it. I am no more. And you may say that I don't support our troops by saying this. The yellow ribbon around the tree in my yard says otherwise. They are sent by our government and they do the best job they can. I am proud of our soldiers as I always have been. But I am not proud of our mission right now and I am not proud of my country, represented by my government, right now. I want to be proud. I want us to be moral and right. I want us to keep the peace and go back to the upright, world-leading country that we once were.
  148. Black Adder from Toronto, Canada writes: This is very good reporting and something Canadians should demand more from our media - congratulations to Grame Smith.

    I don't know what more information Gordon O'Connor needs to stop the practice of handing over detainees over to the Afghan police. This is putting the Canadian soldiers at a tremendous disadvantage and danger.

    O'Conner, Day, Hillier and Frazer should be asked to explain themselves more fully, in front of a praliamentary committee if necessary, of how this is helping our cause and why are Canadians facilitating torture? This is akin to Abu Grab, except we are letting the Afhanistan police do the dirty work.
  149. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: BaZ MaN from Canada: No moron. Those on these boards with an ounce of humanity, whether left or right, are advocating the humane treatment of prisoners as is our responsibility under the geneva conventions, and our responsibility as up standing global citizens.

    Didn't your mama ever tell you that two wrongs don't make a right?
  150. Andrew D from Toronto, Canada writes: David Le Gallez: 'I think the Taliban, Sadam, Viet-Com (historically) missed that class. So how exactly does one defeat an enemy when you have to follow the rules but the enemy does not?'

    Surely a difficult question, but it has, can and must be done that way. I have friends who have either served or are serving in Afghanistan. I know for a fact that they are dedicated to their mission, primarily on humanitarian grounds. If we give up those principles that make the mission worthwhile, I shudder not only what that means to the innocent Afghanis caught in the crossfire, but the cost to our soldiers if their commanding officers do not uphold those principles themselves.
  151. Wilf Kruggel from Onoway, writes: One thing about those captured terrorist, given the chance, these same terrorist would have blown the Canadian's cans off so why would anyone, in their right mind, feel sorry for them? Wilf.
  152. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: Susie Q....Harper and honour don't mix. The Canadian government knows how the Afghan government treats some prisoners. Karzai and his ilk are criminals just like the warlords and tribal leaders they cut deals with. Nothing has changed in Afghanistan and never will. We're just allied with different crooks now. We used to support the Taliban when they were fighting the Soviet Union and they tortured, and killed thousands...but back then they were called 'Freedom Fighters' by the West because they were fighting those pesky, atheist Communists. Now were hooked up with crooks in Afghanistan who support the construction of oil-pipelines across their country. The transport of strategic resources is why we're even there. That's the only reason. Period! Our government knows exactly whats going on inside Afghanistan, but don't care. Thats Realpolitik.
  153. Lewis Bartholomew from Vancouver Island, Canada writes: You right wing posters never cease to amaze. On one hand you criticize the credibility of the human rights abuse claims in Afghanistan (a country and culture long known for its brutality) and on the other hand praise and glorify the 'new' government of Canada for standing tall and firm against China in its human rights abuses of dual Canadian citizens. What is it to be? Stand tall and firm against all nations' human rights abuses or just those that make good photo ops or positve press in the National Post? As long as we as a nation support governments that routinely and systematically do very little to work for the advancement of humanity or work diligently toward standing on their own two feet it is as though we, as a Nation of Canada, add to the breakdown of our world social structure through our own favouritisms.
  154. No offence, but....... from Halifax, Canada writes: Paul Rogers: Yes, you missed a very important point and that is where is the proof that our soldiers are in anyway violating the Geneva Convention. We hand our Taliban prisoners over to Afganistan just as other countries do. Where is the proof that by doing this our troopers are violating the convention. If in fact Tailban are tortured by Afgans, how do you know they were the same Taliban that our troops handed over. It sounds to me as if you got off on a tangent and have no proof whatsoever that what you are talking about is correct. Maybe the Afgans rough up their prisoners a bit, but I fail to see it is a Canadian problem. However, don't get mad get an airline ticket and fly the hell to the war zone and conduct a little study. I will give you a gift wrapped self addressed box on departure for you head to be returned in.
  155. lad lladie from Canada writes: R. Carriere, NATO might as well forget about defeating their enemies (whoever they are) and the enemies might as well forget about defeating NATO. But the 'rub' resides in the fact that NATO's forces are on enemies' turf and are fighting on their enemies's terms plus NATO's enemies can fight forever, NATO can't. It's a war of attrition and NATO lost. Is it a tragedy? I think it's an holocaust that began in 1978.
  156. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: FlashFrozen Eggplant from Canada: Well if the best you can do is put words in other people's mouths then I suppose your position is pretty weak. Either that or your comprehension skills could use some work.
  157. Getalife Libs from Canada writes: Let them eat their own in these lousy countries. Lets stay out of ALL of these situations.
  158. Alberta Dennis Notso,redneck from Canada writes: War is war. Name a country that has not brutilized, shot and tortured prisioners. Torture is used to collect information, like it or lump it. Goes with the territory. Solution, stay out of war situations and submit to whatever comes at you.
  159. Andrew D from Toronto, Canada writes: Green Jerry: 'So, when I hear these scum are being tortured, I'm more than good with it, I'm overjoyed. Quit being so soft and sentimental and get in the war already.'

    Yup. All Afghanis are scum, even the innocent ones. The entire country? Terrorists to be wiped out without pity. Shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

    You, my friend, suffer from a spectacular lack of perspective. Good to know Osama got to you. Dance to his tune, you little puppet.
  160. lad lladie from Canada writes: J.luft, outstanding!
  161. otmar zambo from Canada writes: I do not really know if we are hearing the truth. All I know is that Canadian Men are being murdered by them! We have no business over there. I do not really care what Afghani's do to Afghani's. They are not my brothers and I am not their keeper. I know that they are a despicable, untrustworthy and lying punch and let us not bring any of them them to Canada! Bring our Soldiers home right now instead. They are all I care about!
  162. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: One thing I note about the bloodhounds on this site is there complete inability to admit that innocent people are getting swept up into these torture facilities. I take this as a tacit admission that they know what they're advocating is wrong. They just don't want to face it head on.

    Real courage is refusing to abandon the principles you claim to cherish when faced with difficult uncertainties.

    War mongerers are the greatest cowards of all.
  163. Brian Sexsmith from Toronto, Canada writes: So Dennis O'Connor, Stockwell Day and David Fraser are either completely incompetent dim-wits or liars. Canadian soldiers handing prisoners over to tortuers makes them complicit to torture. This is an outrage.
  164. Barry Turner from Ottawa, Canada writes: Can't wait till the next time Stephen Harper claims that Michael Ignatieff supports torture.
  165. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Luft from Calgary: So when faced with actions and results you can't possibly defend, you claim they are false. Must be nice to live in a world where you can dismiss reality at a whim.
  166. Karl Lauten from Nipawin, Canada writes: Hey all you lefties.........sponsor these detainees and help them become good citizens in Canada! preferably in Toronto!
  167. Green Jerry from Canada writes: Andrew D from Toronto, Canada writes: Yup. All Afghanis are scum, even the innocent ones. The entire country? Terrorists to be wiped out without pity. Shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out. You, my friend, suffer from a spectacular lack of perspective. Good to know Osama got to you. Dance to his tune, you little puppet.

    .
    Huh? Who said all Afghanis are scum? You did. I said the terrorists are scum. They didn't teach reading and cognitive skills in your homeschool on wheels? And yes, Osama did 'get' to me. It happened when he and his terrorist buddies blew up New York a few years ago. You probably cheered. Now you're crying because the terrorists are getting some of their own medicine.
  168. Getalife Libs from Canada writes: OK all you do-gooder, know it all types : Let's hear a solution ??

    p.s. Just avoid regurgitating your hate for GWB, American, excessive hindsight & references to the past , etc. - let's hear it ???

    Right - as we all thought - you are nothing but professional whiners.
  169. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: Philosopher King....The principles of Human Rights, peace, love and understanding that governments preach are only rhetoric and propoganda generated for domestic consumption. I doubt there's one government on earth that take it seriously. Nations only care for one thing. Their own interests.
  170. garlick toast from mill village, Canada writes: the reason for following the geneva convention is that if we torture,or contract it out,can we expect our enemies to not torture our soldiers if captured?hatred of bush and his haliburton cronies should NOT be construed as hatred of the american people.we are not our government.
  171. J G from Whitby, Canada writes: I thought there was a Geneva Convetion on issues like this. Those captured by Canadians must remain in Canadian hands or we are as guilty. Another frigging black mark on our country. Shame!
  172. Barton Lincoln Jonesboro, the Second from Canada writes: Today's news item is brought to you by the Canadian branch of the C.M.A.R. (Cry Me A River), a division of the Canadian Wrist-Wringers and Whiners Society.

    Now, let's get on with THE news !

    Barton Lincoln Jonesboro, the Second.
  173. lad lladie from Canada writes: Getalife Libs, Get out yesterday.
  174. G J from Canada writes: Since we don’t have the forces or facilities to detain prisoners we either:

    Stick to the basic principles of human rights and enter into an agreement with all other coalition forces where all captured prisoners will be kept in monitored coalition detention centres to ensure humane treatment and base are continued participation in this war on it.

    OR

    Continue on with our obligations to the war and abandon our obligations to humanity.
  175. Max Hollins from Gatineau, Canada writes: I'm wondering whether the posters here, who seem to think that all of the individuals who are arrested by Canadian troops are necessarily Taliban, are able to imagine themselves in the shoes of these prisoners? Of those interviewed and quoted in Mr. Smith's article, all appeared to have been detained randomly at check points or while in the course of conducting their own affairs (e.g. a farmer working his field). How does this render them suspects? At the very least, they should not be handed over to the Afghan security forces, who appear to knowingly engage in torture, if all they were doing at the time of their arrest was as innocuous as described in the article. The situations described in the article were not instances of combat, during or after which Taliban fighters were captured. You don't just round up people at random on the premise that they might be Taliban, just as one does not get arrested if pulled over as part of a roadside drinking and driving campaign by your local police force in Canada, unless there is reasonable evidence that one is DUI. Not quite the same thing as what is going on in Afghanistan, I grant you, but the principle is still applicable. If we are handing over detainees to Afghan security forces who we suspect of torturing the detained, then we are approaching the level of those who committed the atrocities of 9-11, of the former Taliban regime and of any others who do not respect basic, fundamental human rights. I support Canadian troops. I do not support the Canadian government's use of the troops in the manner described by this article. That does not make one soft or a whining do-gooder. It makes one human. Oh, one last thing. To those who question a reporter's motives when s/he willingly travels to such a dangerous environment as Kandahar and conducts interviews with those suspected of being Taliban, give your head a shake. What possible reason could one have to put one's life in such danger, if not to report.
  176. Fiona Hammond from Ottawa, writes: ?No offence, but....... from Halifax, Canada writes: Paul Rogers: They very next time a coffin comes back from Afganistan drapped with a Maple Leaf Flag I will get up real close to it and recite your concern about the fact the Geneva Convention may have been broken as stated in a G&M report. I will leave to you the task of expressing your concerns to the family of the victim. That a go....Hotshot!! '

    If the soldier was killed by someone that was tortured after being handed over by Canadian troops and joined the Taliban because of that then yes, that's exactly what you should do.
  177. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Alberto Bayo from Canada: That's hardly a very good excuse Alberto, and besides, it ignores the undeniable power of the people. Governments are fractious and self-interested, no doubt, but their power is derived from the people. When the people demand something en masse, it happens. This is how the principles in our constitution and that of our allies came into being. We demanded it. To my mind, if you are not advocating right action, then you are advocating wrong action. The responsibility ultimately lies with those who have the freedom. In other words: you and me. Part of the point of engaging in discussion is to get people talking and asking questions. National dialogues create the politics of the future.

    Use your voice wisely Alberto, and advocate what you truly believe. Asking questions is wise, but being cynical just gives your power to those who would abuse it.
  178. Scot Loucks from GTA, Canada writes: Another article by Graeme Smith supporting the Taliban... has anyone given him a gun yet?

    Go ahead Graeme and rip our troops.... who is protecting your sorry azz out there?
  179. Nicholas de Panicis from Oakville, Canada writes: I couldn't care less after what they have done to their own people including women and children maybe their own are giving them payback...As long as our own troops live by the Geneva Gonvention and by our standard of law .....
  180. Getalife Libs from Canada writes: Bush Senior was on the right track with these idiot countries - Drop a pile of ordnance from on high , sit back and let the jackasses scratch their heads amidst the rubble.
  181. Irene Cornwell from Morinville, Canada writes: Aside from the human rights topic, why would information gleaned in this manner provide anything accurate??
    I would assume great pain and fear would cause someone to say anything you thought your torturer wanted to hear. I wouldn't risk my life on the testimony of a tortured person.
    And, even if one didn't have an ounce of sympathy for enemies are'nt these sessions then subjecting our captured soldiers to the same possible treatment?
    I always thought 'rules' to the prisoner game were't just to protect 'them' but as a code to protect our own in similar situations.
  182. Andrew D from Toronto, Canada writes: Green Jerry: 'Huh? Who said all Afghanis are scum? You did. I said the terrorists are scum. They didn't teach reading and cognitive skills in your homeschool on wheels? And yes, Osama did 'get' to me. It happened when he and his terrorist buddies blew up New York a few years ago. You probably cheered. Now you're crying because the terrorists are getting some of their own medicine.' You said 'I'm happy these scum are being tortured.' The assumption you are making is that all the people being tortured are terrorists. That is a massive leap of logic. Can you not see it? On the front page of this site is a story about innocent people who were sent to jail because of the flawed testimony of a hack. There's the case of Arar, and a Canadian citizen being held in China. A grade schooler's understanding of the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan would recognize that the vast, vast majority of citizens in those countries are innocent people who just want to get on with their lives. And a grade schooler's understanding of how this things play out on the ground is that innocent people are going to be caught up in the sweep, and are going to be tortured for doing nothing wrong. My soldier friends have told me how essential it is to respect the rule of law, especially innocent until proven guilty, even under such challenging circumstances. How is it that you, sitting safely behind your computer, seem to willing to toss those principles aside? And yeah, Osama got to you but good. He and his small band of vermin looked to stoke a conflict between Islam and the West, where each side thinks the worst of the other. Our reaction to 9/11, I'm certain, has been beyond his wildest hopes and dreams. We've created the world he wanted. Us vs them. Any moderate viewpoint gets shot down as 'anti-American' or 'anti-Islam.' We've let Osama take away the middle ground where most of us live. Nice to see you fall in line. Me? I'm gonna fight him until my last.
  183. M j from Canada writes: I do not support our troops. In fact, I don't even like them. I live near an armoury and my lip curls unconsciously when a uniformed soldier passes by. Consider that our noble soldiers volunteered in a time of peace, not because we needed defending. They know that they must kill people from other countries, when commanded. There is no clause in the contract that excuses our soldiers from following orders if they disagree. They know this. So, in effect, our heroic fighters have surrendered both their judgement and morality in exchange for a uniform and a gun. I have not the words to express my contempt.
  184. rick clarke from edmonton, Canada writes: Canada should set up a home in Afgany land for wayward terrorists, where they can be taught that there, really is'nt 72 virgins waiting to be sexually molested by killers, and other politically correct things. Like if you stay in school, and work hard you could be a phone tech support guy at Dell.
  185. bill williams from whitehorse.yukon, Canada writes: sounds to me like a little bit of payback for what these people did to the rest of the afghan population during the taliban rule.ouch ,hurts dosen't it.when the shoe is on the other foot it turns out to be torture and cruelty not what is said to do in the koran.
  186. Fiona Hammond from Ottawa, writes: 'Wilf Kruggel from Onoway, writes: One thing about those captured terrorist, given the chance, these same terrorist would have blown the Canadian's cans off so why would anyone, in their right mind, feel sorry for them? '

    Perhaps you missed the part of the article that described those captured and tortured as farmers, tailors, etc. NOT 'terrorists'.
  187. RON M from Canada writes: Okay, here is what I read in this exhaustive, comprehensive analysis of Canadian troop efforts in Afghanistan.
    Canada is doing a great job of furthering the independence and democracy of this country. They are respected by the locals for their ability, commitment and compassion. The locals see them as an excellent model for their own security forces to emulate. Of those locals that are detained, a few of those that are passed on to the local security forces are treated in a manner that they are familiar with but does not meet Geneva standards. There is room for improvement in this area as there is in every other part of their society.
    Why do so many of the posters want to deny the Afghans this kind of support? They would prefer that troops are sent from Sudan, Zimbabwe, Somolia, Ethiopia, Russia, China or Cambodia where they have a much more advanced grasp on human rights?
  188. Green Jerry from Canada writes: Andrew D from Toronto, Canada: You seem to take the words of Graeme Smith and captured Taliban as the gospel truth. Has it entered your small brain that perhaps these Taliban prisoners are maybe stretching the truth somewhat? What incentives do they have to tell stories like this? I'll tell you why. It's because left wing, bleeding heart, terrorism deniers like you swallow this crap up. Enjoy your life in Toronto, the fetid swamp of sleeper cells and Liberal crybabies.
  189. Barton Lincoln Jonesboro, the Second from Willowdale Ontario, Canada writes: To Poster Mj from Canada. I am sure you are quite happy there is no conscription in Canada...although, if so I am sure you would high-tail it out of the country as fast as your little feet could travel (that is, after you stopped long enough to pick up your next welfare cheque).

    Please don't give the impression you are proud to be a Canadian. What country did you come from?
    ...the readers want to know.

    Barton Lincoln Jonesboro, the Second.
  190. rick clarke from edmonton, Canada writes: Maybe I'm missing it but, I don't see an article that was in yesterday's Seattle paper about a video showing a 12 year old , beheading a man , with a knife!
  191. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Scot Loucks from GTA, Canada writes: 'Go ahead Graeme and rip our troops.... who is protecting your sorry azz out there?'

    Probably the same troops who will come back shattered human beings unable to hold a regular job, whom we will promptly forget once this 'war' is finished. I've noticed that a warmonger's interest in the young we feed to the warbeast is directly proportional to how much use they are politically. What to do with them once spit out is apparently not overly concerning to them.

    Otherwise they might be more careful about how they're deployed in the first place.
  192. Ozzy Rules The World! from Canada writes: Well here you have, the rightwingers 'War On Terror' how great do we all look now. THis is what happens when the Reichwingers are allowed to get power.
  193. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: Thanks to the Globe and Mail for their courage in printing this article.

    Amazing to see all the support for torture here. What other war crimes do you people support, genocide?.. rape? If you support torture you're no better than the Taliban.
  194. Andrew D from Toronto, Canada writes: One question for those who are not bothered by torture...when Canadians are captured and detained, in combat or otherwise, our goverment demands they be treated under the auspices of the Geneva Convention. Part of the reason our government demands that is because we believe in those principles and we strive to abide by them. If certain people choose to ignore those principles, it damages our ability to protect our citizens when they fall afoul of the powers that be in the many odious regimes around the globe. It's a two way street. I'm proud of my country for being a signatory. I'm proud of our troops and how the vast majority of them struggle to uphold those principles under circumstances we cannot fathom. I'm also thinking of their safety when I say it's vital we do not shirk our responsibility in this regard. It would only serve to make our troops and our citizens abroad more vulnerable.
  195. Paul Rogers from Canada writes: No offence - Is it possible for you to make your point without nasty personal attacks? Because I disagree with your point of view, is no reason to engage in personal insults. One of the fundamentals of debate is to stick to the issue in debate and avoid personal attacks, which only weaken your arguement, by suggesting that you are running out of points.

    I do have some proof for my allegations. It has been well documented that the prisoners in Afghan custody have been and are being tortured. By handing over detainees to Afghan custody (known torturers) and interviewing released detainees, as has been done as noted in the article, there is a strong case to be made that the Geneva Conventions with regard to the treatment of prisoners as well as Canadian domestic law is being broken in Afghanistan. Either we uphold the rule of law or we become a 'rogue state', where anything goes depending on who has the power. Which do you prefer?
  196. Getalife Libs from Canada writes: Green Jerry : no,no,no ! I want to know what happens to the pasty M.J.

    Ozzy rules can get on the same whiny flight. lol
  197. lad lladie from Canada writes: Green Jerry, outstanding!
  198. Richard Soley from writes: Certainly the writer of this article and the Globe & Mail have expressed their opinion. I wonder what the solder's and the people who are exposed to the innocent's who detonate themselves in market's, hospitals, clinics, checkpoints, public buildings, police stations etc have to say. There is the possibility that newspaper coverage is played to the advantage of the Taliban. Would it be possible that soome lies were told to this writer? While we consider the dark side of war please remember the 1103 fish boats confiscated by the Canadian government and the incarcerated Japanese evicted and imprisoned during WWII. And how about Native's forced to live on reservations? There are two sides to every issue.
  199. kevin joncas from Calgary, Canada writes: If your child has been kidnapped ,and you know who has done it ,and they will not say where the child is,and you refuse to have someone torture them, then I can accept your arguments against torture. Otherwise,you are rather sophomoric
  200. David Le Gallez from Ottawa, Canada writes: M j from Canada writes: 'I do not support our troops. In fact, I don't even like them. I live near an armoury and my lip curls unconsciously when a uniformed soldier passes by. Consider that our noble soldiers volunteered in a time of peace, not because we needed defending. They know that they must kill people from other countries, when commanded. There is no clause in the contract that excuses our soldiers from following orders if they disagree. They know this. So, in effect, our heroic fighters have surrendered both their judgement and morality in exchange for a uniform and a gun. I have not the words to express my contempt.'

    M J: Easy words to use when you know very well that Canada is not likely to be invaded any time soon. Should the unfortunate need ever arise that you actually require assistance from the military (could be a natural disaster rather than a military conflict) please be sure to express your enlightened opinion of the military and its personnel to the brave young NCO or officer that is trying to save your miserable, cowardly azz, as you have here. Fortunately they are willing to help even disrespectful, unappreciative people like you.

    Are you not late for a WMF or WTO protest march some where?
  201. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Andrew D from Toronto: Very inciteful. Osama Bin Laden has stated his intention to break the west on the rocks of Afghanistan many times. He figured since he managed to break the Russians this way, why not try it against those who had made his homeland a subject of American power?
  202. Jeremy F from Alberta, Canada writes: Okay, so the G&M interview a bunch of detainees, interviewed a few organizations about accounts of abuse yet we are not presented with any proof here? I really don't see what's so exclusive about this report, to me it just sounds like another article printed in the newspapers trying once again pin us as the bad guys in this battle. I agree this is something that should seriously be looked into if there is serious physical abuse but at the same time we should not jump to any conclusions here. I see already on this board that many of those who read the article have already come to the conclusion that actual abuse is happening and in some cases people on here seem to think it's at the hands of actual Canadians themselves. To me this is all speculation until a actual INVESTIGATION has been done, not just interviews.
  203. lad lladie from Canada writes: David Le Gallez, whistle when Canada is being invaded.
  204. b mac from Canada writes: There is a war going on. 46 Canadians are dead. I'm sure they would have preferred to be treated like ASfghan prisoners. It's pretty hard to see how this article can be taken to the bank. Too many ifs and buts and not enough facts. This is just a disgusting left wing, liberal popaganda piece in my humble opinion.
  205. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: 'Amazing to see all the support for torture here. What other war crimes do you people support, genocide?.. rape? If you support torture you're no better than the Taliban.'

    I suspect that these are indeed the type of people who would defend the fact that we have stood by as genocides have have taken place in other countries while we kill goatherders in Afghanistan. The same people who in one breath claim we are bringing 'western values' to Afghanistan and yet want to ignore the inherent rights and freedoms this entails. The same people who claim we are supporting the rights of little girls to go to school though we kill their fathers, brothers and uncles.

    It's a wonder these people can sleep at night.
  206. Austin Powers from Canada writes: During World War 2, in particular the Pacific Theatre, the US Marines quickly found that the best way to get information our of their fanatical enemy was to go out of their way to be kind with their captives (which were rare given the Japanese warrior code). Once these captives found out that the Americans were in fact not the monsters they were told, combined with the fact that the Americans actually cared for them better AS prisoners than their own Imperial Japanese Army did as serving soldiers, they quickly became valuable intelligence assets.

    It seems that today's leaders have forgotten some of the lessons learned from the Greatest Generation - it always pays off to stick to the moral high ground...
  207. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: Philosopher King...You are correct. When people in a free society demand something en masse from their leaders, sometimes they get it . But now....the people are demanding inexpensive energy and the only way to get it is to hook up with criminals and questionable governments like Karzai's. So the question will be...Do enough free citizens inside the Western nations care for the human rights of the citizens of far off lands like Afghanistan and Iraq enough to turf out their own leaders? And who'll replace the Western leaders? The opposition parties in Canada and the U.S. are very similar to, and just as sleazy as those currently holding power and will stoop just as low in order to advance their own interests, and their countries 'big business' interests.
  208. Denis Love from Victoria, Canada writes: I find it facinating that folks posting notes here endorse torture of prisioners. No matter who does the dirty work. It's time that this countrey of ours gets their head together. We collect prisioners, we should keep them, not hand them over to who knows what group. All the time I was in the military I firmely be bellieved the Geneva Convenion was something we followed. Even when Japan starved our troops then raped and killed the women attached to the force and inflicted bodilty harm on those who didn't die. Our counry followed the Convention, Japan had never signed on. If we keep showing up at assorted places to 'do good' some ground rules should go with our troops arriving. Follow the Convention folks or go fight your own battles. Torture a few Canadians and the noise would be huge in this country but heck, we don't torture we just had prisioners over to those that do. Time to pack and leave folks
  209. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: This is so wrong. I support this effort, but not if we do it like this. No, we aren't the ones torturing anyone, and I'm sure (well I hope) we aren't telling them to do it, but we are at best being complicit about their torture. The blood is also on our hands. Terrible. I know they wouldn't afford our boys the same treatment as we demand they be given, but that is exactly why we will always have the moral high ground.
  210. M j from Canada writes: David Le Gallez, WMF? No, I don't watch pro-wrestling. I am not pasty, whining, miserable, cowardly, weak, or in need of aid. Thank you for your concern, however. While I am unappreciative of a military - thinking, as I do, that it's a damned anachronistic way of resolving disputes - I am not disrespectful. I haven't reduced myself to schoolyard name calling like your team. Our military, the current one, has done nothing to earn my respect. No great wars, no grand defenses of freedom, no worthy successes in longer than the CAF likes to admit. I do agree that a national disaster recovery/assistance force would be an excellent idea. I would suggest diverting money from buying weapons (oh say, the cost of 120 used tanks) to buy tools, equipment, books and supplies instead. Just a (civilized, humane, progressive, kind, Christian) thought.
  211. Irene Cornwell from Morinville, Canada writes: I repeat. I wouldn't trust the testimony or evidence of a tortured person.
    Tortured individuals have openly admitted to saying anything to get away from their torturer or to just be allowed to die.
    I would see it as an uninformed way to get information.
  212. Jeremy F from Alberta, Canada writes: 'The same people who claim we are supporting the rights of little girls to go to school though we kill their fathers, brothers and uncles.'

    Your saying we kill them? On purpose? Can you explain in more detail? Seriously, your saying that WE kill them? How about those who blow them up on purpose, the likes of those who fight for the Taliban, why don't you express the same rage against them? Sounds like hypocrisy to me or are you only one sided? Many criminals in our prision system have brothers, sisters , daughters and sons...yet I don't see you becoming outraged, why the double standard? So it's different because those being killed by our forces are of Afghani origin? Therefore they are all innocent? Bad guys don't exist among them?

    I sleep very well at night, thank you very much.
  213. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: It is amazing to me how few people here realize that this war could be over with already. Despite claims to the contrary, there are plenty of moderates within the southen Pashtun tribes who now make up the bulk of the resistance. This entire fiasco will and can only end with negotiated power sharing. Anyone with more than 15 years of experience in middle east politics can tell you this. The point is to ensure the rights and freedoms of all while establishing a stable and secure government.

    Or is this about revenge?
  214. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Something else which has been totally screwed up by this Government. This was debated in the House, as far as I can remember, and Harper was asked why Canada was not following the Dutch who were monitoring the prisioners themselves, through the Red Cross. I think at that time he said that Canada would be paying attention. Well, Canada AGAIN has been brought into disrepute by this Harper Government. By God, how much more damage can this Government do to our country? Do we always have to follow the Americana way of operation?
  215. Andrew D from Toronto, Canada writes: Green Jerry. Well done! Can't put together a cogent argument, stoop to insults. Tarring everyone in Afghanistan with one brush, tarring everyone who dares think beyond a 'shoot 'em all' rhetoric with the same brush, tar everyone who lives in Toronto with the same brush. Must be nice where everyone can be lumped into big ol' black and white groups that you can hate with ease. Yup, you'd be a great candidate for membership in Al-Queda. Osama would be very proud of you. Your blinkers are coming along nicely. Incidentally, I believe that the Taliban was one of the most repulsive regimes of modern times. I was bleating on about how dangerous they were long before 9/11, but no one was listening back then. That we are fighting against them still makes me very proud. But what I, and our soliders, understand is the reason we are fighting against the Taliban is because they have no value for justice, human rights, the rule of law. We can not, and must not, stoop to their level. And sure, I'm certain that a number of those captured and tortured are members of the Taliban. I'm not as blinkered as you. But just as certain I'm sure that a great number of them are caught and tortured when they should have been questioned and released because they didn't do anything wrong. It happens a lot in these kind of places, you know. If you had any knowledge of how life is led outside our borders you'd know that. But hey, you seem to believe everyone ever questioned or talked to by the police/security forces/whomever is guilty. How remarkably narrow of you. RON M...great post.
  216. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Alberto Bayo from Canada: Canada currently holds approximately 1/3 of the world's oil reserves in the Alberta oil sands alone. While I certainly agree that the war in Iraq was an oil grab, there's nary a drop in Afghanistan. Unless of course you're trying to erect a pipline so you can sell oil to the 2.5 billion people in Asia.

    This isn't about energy for the west. This is about the greed of powerful men. AS USUAL. There's a reason why most Canadians don't support our actions in Afghanistan.
  217. marlene stobbart from mill bay, Canada writes: My singular comment - THANK GOD WE LIVE IN CANADA.
  218. lad lladie from Canada writes: Dennis Law, I also find it fascinating and amazed that many people on this forum are endorsing torture. When I read those comments I always wonder if their authors would carry out torture if ordered? Silly me. They might even volunteer and do it for Canada's sake. And satisfy some personal sadistic strain in their personality? I'm just amazed. I read a book by a Jewish who survived Nazi extermination camps, 'Is This a Man?' is the title. I'm asking myself the same question about the pro-torture people on this forum.
  219. Peter Kells from Ottawa, Canada writes: This sounds like a New Challenge for the New Government of Canada. Is this an example of their New Way of doing things? All the denials regarding this issue that we have heard from the New Prime Minister and the New Minister of Defence are sounding more and more like Old Style Politics and Good Old Denial. What happened to all the talk abount honest, open and transparent governing?
  220. David Le Gallez from Ottawa, Canada writes: M j from Canada writes: 'David Le Gallez, WMF? No, I don't watch pro-wrestling.'

    M J. Thank you for demonstrating your level of education. Here let me enlighten you.

    WMF - World Monetary Fund
    WTO - World Trade Organization.

    So based on your comment you would seem to think that great war is needed to justify having a military with actual weapons. So it has been 62 years since the last great war. If we were to follow your logic then we would have a small emergency response force with no weapons currently. Now lets say a war breaks out and we need a fighting force. Exactly how fast to you believe we could recruit, train, outfit and deploy a fighting force of say 100000. OK, to be fair how a about 25000 or even 10000? Do you understand the concept of contingency planning? Even more important than that there is the concept of living up to our commitments. For example our NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) and UN (United Nations - replaced the League of Nations on 1945) commitments. Commitments to both of these organizations require that we have an operational fighting force. Beyond that, an operational fighting force is like an insurance policy. It costs money to have and you hope you never have to use it but you would hate to be without it if the day came that you needed it.
  221. Danny Maccabee from Madison, WI, United States writes: Canada, time to pull your troops out and bring 'em home. I lost a relative in the World Trade Center attack on 9/11/01, but it doesn't matter anymore if Osama bin Laden ever gets caught. We went there to destroy al-Qaida, but it looks like there are more pressing concerns on Dubya's mind than fighting terrorists.
  222. Hugh McNeil from toronto, Canada writes: Philosopher King doesn't realize that negotiated power sharing is feature common to democracy, not to the realities of most Middle Eastern Governments.
    .
    I think this article was an example of excellent reporting (assuming it wasn't all made up). The last few paragraphs make you proud to be Canadian. I hope Stockwell Day is reading this as well.
  223. Black Adder from Toronto, Canada writes: b mac from Canada writes: There is a war going on. 46 Canadians are dead.

    And there would have been more Canadians dead if we made sure prisoners were treated humanly??
  224. lad lladie from Canada writes: Like when, Dave?
  225. Janet W from Canada writes: Hunter from Sudbury - Nice to see you jumping on the G&M bandwagon! Obviously our troops are getting their kicks out of torturing Afghan detainees! Everyone is guilty in your eyes without a shred of proof. Let's keep things straight. It's the Afghans torturing Afghans. And while everyone is feeling so sorry for these people let's remind ourselves that we're talking about the Taliban who like to rape, mutilate and murder everyone including little girls just to stay in power. These are not nice people. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that in times of war this kind of behaviour doesn't exist - and Afghanistan is at war with itself. It's very nice that the Dutch are being so careful with the detainees that they transfer to the Afghan authorities but those men most likely get the exact same treatment.
  226. Combative American from Minneapolis, United States writes: 'Savage beatings, electrocution, whipping and extreme cold.' Damned if I didn't think this was going to be another juicy story about the malfeasance of the Liberals under Paul Martin.

    I have nothing further to add, Your Honour..
  227. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: Philosopher King....Agreed, this is all about greed and in Afghanistan's case...a pipeline for strategic resources. Since the Industrial Revolution, governments, politicians and thinkers have had very little influence on the policies of governments, especially in the 'West'. The flow of Capital around the globe and who controls it determines the policy of governments. And those who control the purse-strings are generally corrupt, machivellian and lacking in conscience. It's unfortunate, but true. Perhaps the next civilization to rise up on earth, after ours self-destructs...will do a better job.
  228. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Hugh McNeil from toronto: Negotiated power sharing is how practically every war of this nature has EVER been solved. The reconciliation of political dissidents requires nothing less. Ever heard of Sinn Fein? Ask an expert who had dealt with this kind of issue for longer than a few years and you may be surprised to hear that whether they are left or right, they all suggest the same course of action.

    It is only those seeking to forward a particular agenda that claim otherwise.
  229. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Alberto Bayo: Why wait for a future civilization? The power exists to change this now. All one needs is critical mass. It's like rolling a snowball downhill. Get enough momentum and you can even get Conservatives to back climate change legislation. LOL
  230. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: Philosopher King....Time for a Palace revolution! Cheers.
  231. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: The Nazis believed torture was useful too.
  232. neil shea from Canada writes: Well, well........ perhaps the making of a 'Phoenix Program' supplemented by another 'Project 100,000' and the end game would be another 'My Lai'.
  233. Linda P from ~rocky mountain foothills~, Canada writes: Torture is to be expected in third world countries...where they have no concept of humane treatment for prisoners or detainees.
    Why concern ourselves over what is metted out to a small percentage of indiviuals that are suspect of wrong doing in another country.

    We have thousands of poor and starving children here in this country that deserve everyones attention.

    We can't even help a Canadian prisoner in a foriegn country.
  234. The Phantom from Vancouver, Canada writes: No doubt the complicity of Canadians in the torture and disappearance of Afghan detainees will be one of the featured exhibits at Harper's new museum of human rights.

    BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW.
  235. Petit Karibou from Montreal, Canada writes: I'm puzzled about the relevance of sending Canadian troops in Afghanistan. Why are we there in the first place? To please the Americans in exchange of some goodies. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Those who think otherwise are naive. But in the other hand, Talibans are monsters and women out there need our help. So it's very difficult to be clear about the whole situation...

    Unfortunatly, I don't think we will be able to stop the carnage and impose democracy. We are not only fighting Talibans, we are fighting a culture, a way of thinking and acting very different from ours, a country corrupted to its core. As soon as we leave, some crackpots will take over. It's a lost cause. And what about Pakistan? If we were consistent, we would have to 'clean' this country too...
  236. Petit Karibou from Montreal, Canada writes: I'm puzzled about the relevance of sending Canadian troops in Afghanistan. Why are we there in the first place? To please the Americans in exchange of some goodies. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Those who think otherwise are naive. But in the other hand, Talibans are monsters and women out there need our help. So it's very difficult to be clear about the whole situation...

    Unfortunatly, I don't think we will be able to stop the carnage and impose democracy. We are not only fighting Talibans, we are fighting a culture, a way of thinking and acting very different from ours, a country corrupted to its core. As soon as we leave, some crackpots will take over. It's a lost cause. And what about Pakistan? If we were consistent, we would have to 'clean' this country too...
  237. Hugh McNeil from toronto, Canada writes: Mr Philospher King, I wasn't disagreeing with your premise concerning conflict resolution, just your reference to power sharing being a feature of Middle Eastern governments.
  238. Green Jerry from Canada writes: Petit Karibou from Montreal, Canada writes: I'm puzzled about the relevance of sending Canadian troops in Afghanistan. Why are we there in the first place? To please the Americans in exchange of some goodies. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Those who think otherwise are naive.

    .
    Good question. Why are the other 30-some countries there too? Possibly because they all figure its a worthwhile mission? In the coming years many of these countries will be beefing up their troop commitment. Why? Because perhaps they think it's a worthwhile mission. Or is it because they have too many soldiers and need to kill a few off? Use your head.
  239. Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury, Canada writes: This is what we are 'liberating' Afghans to. The Northern Alliance were warlords, drug dealers and thugs every bit as nasty as the Taliban - they just did it in the name of greed and power, not Allah. Had it not been for this behaviour, there would never have been a 'Taliban' - they essentially began as a group holy warriors to protect average folk from the cruelty of the same men we helped to install, and who we are going to help keep in power. This is what our soldiers are dying for. Sounds worthwhile, doesn't it?
  240. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Petit Karibou from Montreal: There are plenty of pressures one can bring to bear on dissident countries without invading them. Most military experts these days agree that putting troops on the ground in any arena is an unneccesary and foolish risk with few upsides. Collapsing a government you don't like isn't really that hard. We've seen so many examples that it's become redundant. The only reason to occupy a country is to control its resources and infrastructure.

    This makes the true intent of the warmongers painfully clear, and it doesn't have anything to do with little girls or freedom. The fact that they have a full chorus of sheep to bleat this nonsense ad nauseum makes their cruel treatment of these people even more shameful.
  241. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Hugh McNeil from toronto: Fair enough Hugh. My bad.
  242. Mr Fijne from Calgary, Canada writes: THIS is why Canadians feel a moral superiority compared to anything walking or crawling on the planet... Dali was wrong when he thought the center of universe was the Perpignan railway station! No it's Ka-Na-Duh.
  243. bj sutherland from Victoria, Canada writes: Thanks to the G&M for bringing details of these detensions to light. It should shame us all that people are treated in this way. Our military command and their political masters need to take this information and confront Afghan authorities and get assurances that these criminal acts perpetrated on detainees stop.
  244. B A from Ottawa, Canada writes: Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada wrote: It is amazing to me how few people here realize that this war could be over with already. Despite claims to the contrary, there are plenty of moderates within the southen Pashtun tribes who now make up the bulk of the resistance. Philosopher King, great posts, all. It's a pity rhetoric seems to replace informed opinion on these boards so often. Believe me, I share your frustration, though in truth this article should not come as a surprise to either of us. As to your comment above; sadly, I think that time has passed. Pakistan has begun to close the refugee camps on their side of the Durand line. By Winter the homeless and starving will swell in the hundreds of thousands in addition to the 2.3 million of last Winter (those that survived) Afghanistan does not have the infrastructure to feed or employ these people and any voices of moderation will soon be drowned out by those in desperation to just feed their families. My estimation is by the time we withdraw in 2009 (if Parliament has it spelled out for them) all of Southern Afghanistan will be a wretched writhing huddle of shifting alliances, starving refugees and power through force of arms only. Lucky us, (sarc) our troops get front row seats. What a waste.
  245. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: BaZ MaN from Canada: The last time I checked Mr. Harper is PM so your example is desperately wanting. All that peace would require in Afghanistan is power sharing. Not a dissolution of the Karzai government, not the return to taliban rule: power sharing. In other words they get to have their fair say, no more. Find the moderates, negotiate. Divide and conquer in the only way that really matters: on the basis of social status and governance.

    Only someone who truly believes that the southern tribes have fangs and drink blood could support the continuation of this conflict. To them I say, 'baaa baaa!' Good sheep.
  246. R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: We must not, we cannot not be part of such horrific abuses. Where is our 'international reputation' on human rights??? Oh yes, and I also forgot that pesky issue about First Nations neglect and abuse.
  247. Barton Lincoln Jonesboro, the Second from Willowdale Ontario, Canada writes: It has been announced that C.M.A.R. (Cry Me A River) Society in conjunction with the Canadian Wrist-Wringers and Whiners, that a front yard power session will be held tonight at 6:00 PM, to protest the 'cruelty'. There is no mention of the cruelty which will be suffered by the children whose dinner hour will be delayed. Get out on your front lawns you Canadian boobs and lift your voices to the sky ! You may also wish to get busy on the internet and see if you can find some praises in the local languages of those 'poor prisoners', lest they may not understand your words as they float on high across the ocean!

    See you on the lawn - and don't trip over the pink flamingos !

    Barton Lincoln Jonesboro, the Second.
  248. Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury, Canada writes: BaZ MaN = incoherent.
  249. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: B A from Ottawa: I fear you are right, but pray you are not. Since men of conscience can do little else, we must continue to advocate the common sense of shared humanity where it can be found.

    You have proven yet again that those who truly understand the region and its social politics are much more aware of the true scope of the tragedy and the consequences it is having for all of us.
  250. Bond Shearing from Calgary, writes: Expert Eel says he will not vote for the government that sent canadian troops over there! Well, I guess Expert Eel will not be voting Liberal. Strange indeed.
  251. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: B A from Ottawa: Correction: I should have said 'people of conscience'. Just the old fart coming out in me.
  252. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: Thank god we're in Afghanistan to the human rights of its citizens. I'd hate to think how matters might stand if we didn't care.
  253. god bless canada from Canada writes: Globe and Mail investigation has uncovered a litany of gruesome stories.
    yes all the people who are captured are all inocint just like all the killers in our jails ask any one of them and they did nothing wrong.
    remember what happens in jail stays in jail and for g& m to have inside info give me a break the guy looked online while he was at a tim hortons to write this story this story is a credable as any thing that comes out of mr dions mouth all lies and not worth my time again who cares what happens with prisoners in anouther country
  254. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: This is truly a difficult question. Solomon would have difficulties, figuring out what was correct under international law. Why? Canada intruded with NATO, subsequent to a UN decision, into an on-going Civil War. It displaced the taliban regime, and ultimately replaced it with the one currently in power following elections. So what? Taliban adherents aren't really prisoners of war several times over, and therefore, strictly speaking, the Geneva Convention et. al., don't really matter. Why? Taliban fighters are insurgents, and therefore aren't recognisable as combatants. They aren't actually captured in a war, but detained. They are criminals -- in contravention of Afghan law -- not Prisoners of War. Further, many are detained on suspicion, rather than being taken in arms. It isn't clear that Canadian soldiers could hold them, even if it wanted to. I expect, however, that the thing to remember is that the Geneva Convention falls into that category of international law, which needs to be interpreted broadly and honoured in the spirit, not (as has recently been the case in the US) gutted by narrow, niggling attention to the letter. The great issue is that atrocities and torture are unacceptable. What we probably need to do then is to step up to the plate. If we are suppose to help the Afghans sort out their prison system, let us do it, insisting first off that this sort of thing stop and that Canadians supervise those facilities in which those Afghans we detain are processed.
  255. Andrew D from Toronto, Canada writes: Richard Roskell...amen.
  256. Andre Poirier from London, Canada writes: While this is very unfortunate and sad it is not useful for us to be hard on ourselves as Canadians. The fact is Afghanistan has been a war torn country for 30 years. Recruit anyone there to be involved in security and they are severely traumatized and perhaps paranoid of another side. They must be taught to end the cycle of violence. They sort of need some anger management training ... I am not saying the torture is justified, it is unacceptable ... I am saying let's look at the causes, for some of these people, the only language they were raised in was violence, they live in extreme paranoia. Their concept of human dignity has been erased from the time they were children. The fact that the government official over there is coming close to admitting it is a step. Let's face it, if he wasn't cooperating with Canadians he'd be fighting them. We need to help them on all fronts, including reconciliation, truth and justice, and anger management. The Afghan people need to heal, and in healing comes remission of old patterns, they need help acheiving it. It makes no sense to politicize this and try to pin the blame on any Canadian politician, they did not create the situation, they are dealing with it. If we pull out of Afghanistan there will be civil war, torture, darkness ... but then we will be proud in saying that it is not reflective of our values or involvement.
  257. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: There is but one circumstance where war is a legitimate justification for protecting human rights: genocide. In all other cases, war is a net abuser of human rights every single time.

    An oft-spoken rationale for Canada's war in Afghanistan is that we're protecting the innocent from the human rights abuses of the Taliban, should they return. Yet we: 1) support a government which systematically tortures and murders prisoners. 2) support the Afghan military and police who by all accounts are more corrupt and vicious than Afghan criminals. 3) may well be committing war crimes as we prosecute the war.

    It's particularly amusing (or repugnant, your choice) that a nation like Canada, that is barely out of the Dark Ages regarding gender inequality, would claim to be in Afghanistan making war to protect the rights of women. Canadian women have had the vote for less than 100 years. (Swiss women weren't given the vote until 1968!) We created a federal Ministry of Women to try to alleviate the systemic gender inequalities in our own country. Women are financially, politically and socially disadvantaged in Canadian society. And yet we're supposed to be justified in killing people in another society for their own misogyny?

    Time for an unflinching look in the mirror, Canada.
  258. Lou Dobbs from Vancouver Island, Canada writes: If and when NATO defeats the Taliban, they'll then have to turn their attention to this band of torturers and their supporters. So, I guess our soldiers are never coming home.
  259. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada : HERE is your explanation about Oil in Afghanistan:

    But a pipeline is in the works.

    Hamid Karzai, the US-installed Afghan leader and former pipeline project consultant, announced a pipeline deal with Pakistan on February 8 2002, only about 2-3 months after the US invaded Afghanistan in October 2001. And he mentioned it again less than two weeks ago:

    '[Hamid Karzai, in his maiden speech at the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) summit in New Delhi on April 3 and 4, 2007] said that work on the Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India (TAPI) gas pipeline should be expedited. This is the preferred pipeline of the Bush administration, which opposes the Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline. Both New Delhi and Islamabad have indicated a preference for the gas pipeline from Iran despite the objections from Washington against dealing with Teheran.'

    - from Frontline 'India's National Magazine', http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/stories/20070420003202700.htm
  260. Kathleen Degelder from kelowna B.C., Canada writes: Obviously this is the third world war. Iran nuclear threat, sharing a border with Iraq. Mali bombings, London bombings, Belsan children murdered in their schools in Russia. I'm tired of the Bush bashing and American foreign policy complaints. The USA was involved in all the world wars and so was Canada. With all the bombings after the second world war, what do you expect, giving the terrorist steak and lobster?
  261. BaZ MaN from Canada writes: Philosopher King from Ottawa: I’ve read your posts your pretty fair handed I’m talking to those that mouth off on the posts that have nothing to contribute other than every conspiracy theories under the sun. You are right the Taleban are part of Afghanistan and as such should be involved in any Afghan country of the future. My point is that if the left feel the Taleban are such innocent victims then they should have no problem with the right in this country as we are not even close to them in any way shape or form. They don’t, they complain about Harper to no end but wish to over look those that don’t wish the Taleban to return to rule. The same ones the left-wing charities were trying to help are the same people we are now fighting for inside Afghanistan. Instead of Afghans dieing it’s our troops we are taking their place on the front lines. We want only to give the people of Afghanistan a choice of what freedoms they want not a reflection of Canada. People need to wake up to the fact that imprisoning someone all be it in a sad little hole is far better that chopping their heads off any day. The people we turn over are the ones trying to kill our people the same soldiers that the left praised for their peacekeeping duties but now they are savage animals out burning and raping the country! If you are using Afghanistan for political reasons you care nothing about the Afghans so stop saying you do. I want Afghans to have every opportunity my family and I have had they deserve it just as much as I do and that will never happen under the Taleban. We as a free country should be out in the world fighting for those who can’t, be it through negotiation sure, but with the strength of war if needed. The Taleban will not negotiate so they get war and if needs be that some are tortured so be it. I’m more concerned that we keep our people safe with the right equipment than what happens to the guys that tried to kill our people, sorry!
  262. Free Markets from Canada writes: Bunch of bleeding heart whining lefty losers.....

    I have two words: WHO CARES
  263. BaZ MaN from Canada writes: Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury = no help to anyone as he has nothing to add but BaZ MaN = incoherent. In all I posted thats what he got thankfully your not a right-winger!
  264. Brian Brewster from Canada writes: I don't understand how people expect Afghanistan to act and be like their surburban neighbours. They've been doing horrible things to themselves for such a long time that we can't just change things over night.

    On another perspective...Canadians are asking for our troops to come home, even though these atroscities are happening. These are the type of actions we want to stop yet people rather say 'not in my back yard'.
  265. Andrew D from Toronto, Canada writes: god bless canada, never mind that this country has a distinguished record in its young history of caring what happens outside our borders, and getting involved. The soldiers I know who are serving there believe passionately that they have a duty to help bring stability and peace to Afghanistan. I'm very proud of their bravery. They put you to shame.
  266. Darth Joe from Canada writes: David Le Gallez - It's actually the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Thank you for demonstrating your level of education.
  267. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: To answer Mr. Noori's question. Some Canadians have known for quite sometime about the Hamid Karzai's cruelty to prisoners. Human rights workers have known. The Canadian government certainly knew. All the officers who assisted with these sadistic 'interrogations' knew. The regional commanders and CDS know too. Just because they know it doesn't follow that they care.

    Clearly we have a bit of disconnect here between the values of the general public and that of our elected leaders. Consequently, they need to be taught our values when remove them from the offices they hold. Next step is the lesson in caring. For that they should charged with complicity in crimes against humanity. Then they'll care.
  268. Zando Lee from Vancouver, Canada writes: ...this is further cheapening our lives and those of our kids...are these Canadian values Stevie?...you and your gang of Neocons have taken us down a disasterous road...you have refused to be guided by the lessons of history and continue to gamble with the lives kids and their psychological health.....
  269. Henriette Heroux from Decent Town, Canada writes: Jeremy F from Alberta: 'The same people who claim we are supporting the rights of little girls to go to school though we kill their fathers, brothers and uncles.' Your saying we kill them? I sleep very well at night, thank you very much. --- Yes, we kill them... Either shoot them, blow them up, or have them bombed! That is not the way to contribute to the education of their daughters, sisters and nieces. That is not the way to liberate their wives. -- Jeremy, that you sleep very well at night, knowing what you say you know about what is done in your name, is precisely what is so worrisome, more particularly given you are a compatriot.
  270. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: BaZ MaN from Canada: At the very least, I can support your intentions as stated. I guess what I'm suffering from here is buyer's regret. By sticking our butts right in the middle we've made all of this OUR problem, when we should have merely knocked out the government and then supported those of like mind externally.

    Our brash decision (NATO's that is) has compromised the safety of our troops, some of which are my family and friends. I'm not saying I support sitting in our own little corner of the world and doing nothing to right the wrongs so evident all around us, however, there are smart ways to do things and not so smart. Starting a land war in western asia does not make the smart list. George Bush Senior was right: putting troops on the ground is an out of date 19th century notion. The only practical reason to do as we did was to control their infrastructure. This cannot serve any purpose but for us to use it for our own ends.

    As a fiscal conservative I would love to actually vote conservative at some point this century, but I can't support poorly thoughtout foreign policy. This above all else effects us considerably in this new global world of ours.
  271. V ADS from North Vancouver, Canada writes: This is indeed shocking news, leaving our troops with no choice but to kill the Taliban with 'kindness.'

    Canada should build, pay for, and operate a posh POW prison in Khandahar, where the Taliban would be forced to listen to Margaret Atwood novels and Maude Barlow lectures for years on end, until they are reformed and renounce violence and male chauvinism forever.
  272. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    lad lladie from Canada; Enjoyed your 10:43 post!

    Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Something else which has been totally screwed up by this Government. This was debated in the House, as far as I can remember.... Yes it was Yvonne-and the Liberals voted for the extension. The debate was a farce as far as I was concerned and the lack of accountabilty of all Parties on this issue is disgusting from Harper to Dion to Layton. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the need for a regional political solution-if one is even possible!

    marlene stobbart from mill bay, Canada writes: My singular comment - THANK GOD WE LIVE IN CANADA. Nail hit on the head!!! Bravo!
  273. Lou Dobbs from Vancouver Island, Canada writes: Steve D.: The good intentions of Canadian soldiers, their bravery and their very lives will be all for naught if the next group of people to run Afghanistan torture and murder their people.

    Let's hope other non-military intiatives are taking hold in the area. I like that idea of buying the heroin crop from Afghan farmers for pharmaceutical uses, for example.
  274. L M87 from Calgary, Canada writes: We are supposed to be energizing these people, showing them that there are better alternatives to what they've had in the past. Unfortunately, in Iraq, you have locals saying outright, that they were better off under Saddam. I wonder what the average Afghans are saying. Economically, no better off, and now you have two regimes to fear, the Taliban and Karzai's government forces. Were they better off just being under the Taliban?
  275. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: V ADS from North Vancouver: Oh lord, now THAT's cruel and unusual punishment! Isn't there a geneva convention against that? LOL
  276. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: Andre Poirier, it's undoubtedly true that the Afghan population has been brutalized and traumatized after decades of conflict. But why do you allow that excuse for the torturers and not for those we make war against? The Taliban are equally victims of the same trauma, are they not?

    I reject your claim that Canada and its military commanders are not responsible, despite knowing full well what the transfered prisoners faced. Canada must face its responsibilities as a signatory to numerous humanitarian and international treaties covering these matters. If we can't prosecute a war without committing war crimes, then it is our legal and moral duty to avoid war altogether.
  277. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: L M87 from Calgary, Canada writes: 'Were they better off just being under the Taliban?'

    I would hope not, but I should think we could've found a more moderate choice between death by extreme religion versus death by occupational uprising. As long as we occupy, things will only get worse, but we can't simply just up and leave either. We've created a catch 22 for ourselves that won't be easily solved. The world will judge us harshly on the outcome, so we better get this right.
  278. BaZ MaN from Canada writes: Yea, I don’t have the answers but I know what I feel and right now I feel we turned our backs on the Afghans once in the 80&8217;s and got the Taleban, we shouldn&8217;t repeat that mistake again. Would I like our troops home no question but, not until we get some kind of peace and some kind of government that is not closed to dealing with the outside world other than a hand out for the starving people. I&8217;m not a supporter of chasing Bin Lamer around the world only to stabilize Afghanistan which is what we signed up for. For those that don&8217;t know the numbers we are talking about. The Northern Alliance controlled 10% of the land with 30% of the countries population what does that say to you? It says to me that 30% of this country doesn&8217;t want the Taleban and don&8217;t wish to live under them. Now add those that have known nothing else but the Taleban and are just now getting to live as they wish even if it is the same as when the Taleban ruled. As for drugs in their country what are you people talking about we have injection sites in Vancouver to shot the stuff in Canadian arms brought about by you lefties. I can&8217;t get my head around some of your peoples thinking maybe someday but not today.
  279. Mary Smith from United States writes: Henriette Herioux refers to Canadian Soldiers as being complicit and they don't belong in Afghanistan.

    Get over youself lady. The World is complicit when it sits by and does nothing when genocide and slaughtering of innocents is occuring around the World. You try to hide behind some 'faux' caring attitude, when in fact, your only desire is to sit in the comfy confines of Canada. Let's call a spade a spade here, so stop hiding behind the guise of 'I'm a caring individual'. The only thing you care about is yourself, and to hell with all those who didn't have the luxury of being born in a democratic and moral society. War is brutal and freedom is worth fighting for, but it seems many who have it are the least willing to allow others the same opportunities. Thank God the people who fought for your freedoms aren't around to see the selfishness of those who benefitted form their sacrifices.
  280. Lewis Bartholomew from Vancouver Island, Canada writes: As the posts wear on endlessly in support of torture and 'us against them' I can not see any middle ground of sensiblity in this issue, only verbal attacks on which poster would be more likely to follow NASCAR or marry their cousin or wear a veil. Some of you think because there are bad guys over there that all of them are bad guys, even the children cutting heads off. So if you are right, then lets just go in and use western democratic genocide of the entire population so we can be assured to get every one of those evil people like Winnipeg uses bug spray. Don't waste any more time or money or Canadian troups popping off a few farmers, unemployed taliban privates or suspected fathers of children. Just hurry and get the job done. Plus you can join up as well. You can't have the other Canadian parent's children do your dirty work. On the other side of the argument there is no solution given for the proper detention and treatment of detainees of suspect. Many have been arrested for simply feeding a taliban, driving a taxi with a taliban as a passenger, etc. You know, that usual stufff people do without thinking. Like all the people who served the food at the restaurants the 9-11 attackers ate at the night before, or the hotel clerks who checked them in or the lap dancer at the club they went to. They too should be suspect in aiding the terrorists. Why do you on the left allow your government to simply hand over innocent people to known torturers? Is it because you can't turn them over to the USA who are only known to torture in Iraq and Vietnam and in undisclosed locations around the world? To do that would be certain shame on our part wouldn't it. Yet there is no solution other than to get out of Afghanistan and close the door behind you. Our government changed the mission and by doing so became a part of a much darker history. We lost our chance to stay humanitarians when we got the orders to fire upon the bad guys. War or peace, no middle ground.
  281. ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada writes: Some say if we pull out there will be civil war and torture - News flash: there already is civil war and torture.

    There has been since the Americans invaded Afghanistan in 2001 without the UN or NATO and replaced the existing government with this puppet regime.

    The Americans imposed decades of brutal civil war on this country from at least 28 years ago when they covertly funded different factions in Afghanistan. They actively fostered the mujahedeen (Islamic holy warriors) and exploited the people of Afghanistan to use them as a bloody tool against the USSR.

    Carter advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski said in a 1998 interview: 'That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap ... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.'

    Indeed, for almost 28 years, Afghans have had to live with the brutality and suffering the Americans imposed on them.
  282. ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada writes: We have 2500 troops in Afghanistan. That's just 1.6% of the 152,000 American troops in Iraq. It's also just 8.3% of the additional 30,000 troop 'surge' that Bush wants to add to Iraq.

    We've more than done our part for them in this war that has outlasted each of the world wars. If we leave, and the Americans want to continue their occupation, all they have to do is shift a small 1.4-1.6% of their troops one country over from Iraq to Afghanistan.

    Canada has better things to do.
  283. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: Regarding the mistreatment of prisoners in Afghanistan...

    To this point the war in Afghanistan has largely been a 'conventional' military conflict, with significant numbers of Taliban facing NATO forces on the battlefield. The Taliban were slaughtered (there's no more suitable word for it) and hence have shifted their tactics to a WAR OF INSURGENCY.

    A war of insurgency is not fought on a battlefield, but more typically in the homes- the bedrooms and the kitchens- of the resident population. Canadian soldiers will arrive in the middle of the night to arrest or kill suspects. Innocent people are inevitably rounded up and become victims as well. Conventional war can be brutal; wars of insurgency take that brutality and injustice up a further notch.

    If you regret the abuses that have occurred thus far, it's likely that you will view this conflict with even greater repugnance in future. And even if you have little sympathy for the Afghan people who are subjected to these abuses, you should at least consider the effect a war like this will have on our own soldiers. There are NO clean hands in a war of insurgency. The 'good guys' become just like those they fight. If you can't bring yourself to show mercy to Afghans, at least show it to those Canadians whose lives will never be the same if they must prosecute a war like this.

    I beg of my fellow Canadians: do not put our soldiers, young men and women all, in this position. They deserve a mission that they can achieve with their heads held high and their souls intact.
  284. Lou Dobbs from Vancouver Island, Canada writes: Amen, Richard R., amen.
  285. Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury, Canada writes: BaZ MaN, in a few lines above I refuted just about everything you had to say, which wasn't difficult, so saying I had nothing to add if false. Go back and take a look. Your long winded, confused and near unintelligible posts are predicated on the fact that if we defeat the Taliban, the peace and rights that we enjoy will come to Afghanistan. The truth, as evidenced by this article and anybody with even a vague understanding of this conflict, how it began, or the history of the country, is that we'll simply deliver them to a new set of criminals and tyrants.
  286. Philosopher King from Ottawa, Canada writes: I find it hard to understand those who try to deny that we're handing over prisoners for torture. I'm reading all the excuses above, 'someone is making it up', 'where's the proof', or 'how can you trust what the prisoners say' etc etc.. Given that the ideological rightwing has openly admitted this practise, endorsed it publicly and even questioned the very interpretation that this is illegal under the geneva conventions, it's like denying crap stinks!

    I wonder, are these folks at war with the left side of their brains as well?
  287. Mary Smith from United States writes: IMaCandian

    American went into Afghanistan without the UN???

    You mean the same UN that EXPLICITLY ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY for failing to stop the genocide in Rwanda that killed 800,000 people?



    Keep talking, you're a laugh a minute.
  288. Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury, Canada writes: Oh my dear lord BaZ, now it's all clear. You a) have no idea who the Northern Alliance was and b) have no idea how long the Taliban have been around. In essence, you are commenting on a situation you know absolutely nothing about. Let's get this straight - the fact is the Northern Alliance are not and were never the peace loving, benevolent, white knights you seem to think they are. Never. They are bad guys who don't give a crap about womens' rights either. They are power hungry warlords and nothing more. You are 'not a supporter of chasing Bin Lamer around the world only to stabilize Afghanistan which is what we signed up for.' Well, hate to break it to you, but the only reason anybody is anywhere near Afghanistan is to chase BIN LADEN around. That it became our mission to 'stabilize' the country so that the U.S. could go play guns in Iraq actually has nothing to do with this debate. As for 'For those that don't know the numbers we are talking about. The Northern Alliance controlled 10% of the land with 30% of the countries population what does that say to you? It says to me that 30% of this country doesn't want the Taleban and don't wish to live under them. Now add those that have known nothing else but the Taleban and are just now getting to live as they wish even if it is the same as when the Taleban ruled.' O.k. - that is some kind of confused logic. We wouldn't be at war with a country just because 30% of the people didn't support them, because that would indicate that 70% DID. Further, there are very few people who 'have known nothing else but the Taliban' - it is a fairly recent movement - anybody who isn't a child knows what it was like before the Taliban. Finally, we have this gem, 'I can't get my head around some of your peoples thinking maybe someday but not today.' I'm guessing never BaZ -logic doesn't seem to be your strong suit. Your arguments are predicated on so many mistaken facts you could never arrive at a correct outcome.
  289. The Phantom from Canada writes: In sept of 2006 Avi Lewis, host of the CBC show The Big Picture, referred to an agreement between Canada and Afghanistan that named the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission as the body that was to monitor The treatment of detainees. This was long before O'Conner lied about the IRC's role in the monitoring and reporting of prisoner abuse. After O'Conner admitted he was lying he then went to afghanistan to meet with the head of the AIHRC to 'look him in the eye'???? It was made to seem that only since the investigations into the alleged prisoner abuse by Canadian soldiers has Canada had an agreement with the AIHRC.
    Avi Lewis speaking to Omar Samad, Afghan ambassador to Canada: Canada and Afghanistan 'have an agreement, the agreement is about how detainees are handled, in that agreement the Afghan independent human rights commission is specified as the body to monitor treatment of detainees and according to their latest report, and I'm quoting: 'torture continues to take place as a routine part of Afghan national police procedure and appears to be closely linked to illegal detention centers and illegal and illegal detention.'
  290. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: You know the funny thing is that this has been known for quite some time. There's loads and loads of evidence about Karzai's government's treatment of prisoners. There's even tons more evidence of corruption and links to the heroin industry, Afghanistan's biggest cash crop. So here we get yet another story only this time from G&M, Canada's largest business daily, hardly a bastion of critical thinking. So this story must be true! So after years of reports about heroin and Karzai not being as nice as the propaganda made him out to be Canadians are shocked to find out that all the Amnesty International reports are true! One moment the public was clinging to the hope that we were really just rebuilding and helping average Afghani's and the next moment we're helping in an Imperial struggle that involves the torturing and murdering of the locals. This is really nothing new either since we've involved ourselves in Imperial struggles before... For instance the Boer war where the British perfected the first modern concentration camps. This in your face kind of reporting that cuts really hard at Canadians' self image must either... stop! or be acted upon. To stop truthful reporting means continuing self-delusion. This is perfectly acceptable to many posters here. To act upon it... well... remember the one killing in Somalia that led to a whole inquiry? Maybe its time for another one of those. We might be able to salvage some self-respect out of it.
  291. Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury, Canada writes: Oh my dear lord BaZ, now it's all clear. You a) have no idea who the Northern Alliance was and b) have no idea how long the Taliban have been around. In essence, you are commenting on a situation you know absolutely nothing about. Let's get this straight - the fact is the Northern Alliance are not and were never the peace loving, benevolent, white knights you seem to think they are. Never. They are bad guys who don't give a crap about womens' rights either. They are power hungry warlords and nothing more. You are 'not a supporter of chasing Bin Lamer around the world only to stabilize Afghanistan which is what we signed up for.' Well, hate to break it to you, but the only reason anybody is anywhere near Afghanistan is to chase BIN LADEN around. That it became our mission to 'stabilize' the country so that the U.S. could go play guns in Iraq actually has nothing to do with this debate. As for 'For those that don't know the numbers we are talking about. The Northern Alliance controlled 10% of the land with 30% of the countries population what does that say to you? It says to me that 30% of this country doesn't want the Taleban and don't wish to live under them. Now add those that have known nothing else but the Taleban and are just now getting to live as they wish even if it is the same as when the Taleban ruled.' O.k. - that is some kind of confused logic. We wouldn't be at war with a country just because 30% of the people didn't support them, because that would indicate that 70% DID. Further, there are very few people who 'have known nothing else but the Taliban' - it is a fairly recent movement - anybody who isn't a child knows what it was like before the Taliban. Finally, we have this gem, 'I can't get my head around some of your peoples thinking maybe someday but not today.' I'm guessing never BaZ -logic doesn't seem to be your strong suit. Your arguments are predicated on so many mistaken facts you could never arrive at a correct outcome.
  292. BaZ MaN from Canada writes: Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury: I have no illusion of grander trust me on that but your view of just who the Northern Alliance were is just a bit simplistic. Can you explain just who Ahmad Shah Masoud is as he was their leader who was assassinated by the Taleban and Bin Lamer on September 8th 2001 just two days before 9/11? The Northern Alliance IS and was the group that fought the Russians for us in the west NOT the Taleban which was not around at that time. The Taleban were Afghan refugees from Pakistan paid by Pakistan to transport goods into Afghanistan. With that money they bought guns and started their brutal rise to power against the Northern Alliance and as we no longer supplied our allies inside Afghanistan with money they started to lose ground. Money that people like you .i.e. (LEFTIES) thought was wrong so voted to cut it off both here and in the US. The Alliance battled on for ten years without us and yes picked up some not so good guys as you implied. I will say it again they had 10% of the land in the end with 30% of the countries population….why? Because 10 million people in Afghanistan don’t want the Taleban and want a life like you have in you chair in Canada. Why do they not have the same human rights you do? Let me see you think the Afghans are better off under the Taleban but not you under the Tories right? You are a lefty hypocrite and your thoughts are worth any more of my time.
  293. sur. kai from London, United Kingdom writes: You Canadians will never learn, it is Afghanistan you are talking of not Canada or any Western countries, the police in Afghanistan have to resort to these things , otherwise they will never get any information from these Taliban sympathizers. I know for fact most of the times they will lie about the tortures and the ill treatment, so as to discredit the Government . They should consider themselves lucky , if the Taliban have captured a Government/police/army person , by now Taliban would have beheaded him. I am glad that Canadian troops are there and they are doing a good work.
  294. Mary Smith from United States writes: I forgot to add:

    America supported the Afghan rebels who were fighting COMMUNISM, and of course, Russia invaded to support the Communists.
  295. Petit Karibou from Montreal, Canada writes: Green Jerry from Canada writes: "Petit Karibou from Montreal, Canada writes: I'm puzzled about the relevance of sending Canadian troops in Afghanistan. Why are we there in the first place? To please the Americans in exchange of some goodies. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Those who think otherwise are naive.

    Good question. Why are the other 30-some countries there too? Possibly because they all figure its a worthwhile mission? In the coming years many of these countries will be beefing up their troop commitment. Why? Because perhaps they think it's a worthwhile mission. Or is it because they have too many soldiers and need to kill a few off? Use your head."

    -------

    Do you really think that one day, we will be able to say mission accomplished??? I really doubt it. Like in Iraq, the situation is way to complex and ethnic groups are fighting each other for power. Wanting to reach a point where real democracy and peace are established for good in Afghanistan just by having troops there is wishful thinking. If we just concentrate on Afghanistan and don't do the same in corrupted Pakistan, it's useless. Even if we were eradicating all the Talibans from the face of the earth, we couldn't say we won. The United Islamic Front guys, known as the Northern Alliance here and allies of the USA, are not angels either and have also an history of very violent crimes. Like the Talibans were once the allies of the USA... Unless we keep foreign troops there for decades, I don't see how we can dream of reversing the situation for good. The fact our presence there is not welcomed by a lot of Afghans doesn't help and contributes to the recruiting of new wannabe terrorists as well.

    Did you notice that at the same period a motion was voted in Parliament for the prolongation of Canada's presence in Afghanistan till 2009, an agreement on softwood lumber was reached between Bush and Harper? Do you think it's a coincidence? I don't.
  296. otmar zambo from Canada writes: To Mj from Canada???
    If you hate Canadian Soldiers that much, I suggest to you you to slither back to wherever you came from! I am sure Canada will do fine without you!
  297. Asterix M from Canada writes: Torture is part of war. It is a valuable tool to obtain information.

    Name me one war where torutre was not used.

    War is not fun, never has been, the worst of man comes out.

    Unfortunatly Im not shocked by this. Same old, same old on the battlefield.

    This war has been to sanitized by the gov't and media that we seem to forget the realities of war. From death, bloodied mangled bodies, torture, rapes and executions.

    The color red is rarely seen on our televisions.
  298. BaZ MaN from Canada writes: Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury: If you have a hard time understanding me with my bad spelling and grammar I can pretty much guess you have never heard anyone inside of Afghanistan speak. People like Nooria Jehan who IS one of those warlord, drug dealers you so casually refer to in your post. Sorry if my posts are not up to your level of sophistication because your are soooo much smarter than anyone on the right. That is another problem with you arrogant lefties. You sit and type a nice neat posts, I'll be out doing something like volunteering or raising money for our troops families as they don't care about such things only that I'm there to help, are you? Yea didn't think so by all means spout off on the G&M you help no one with your perfect writing skills! You care soooo much sitting at home and doing nothing but whining about the war get up go out in the real world and support a starving family in Afghanistan at least you doing something you can live with and helping one family to win the hearts and minds. You know those people you keep referring to and stating that you care about. See this is what really gets me about your kind you complain about everything and do nothing try it the other way around for a bit and see if our country can’t make head way. There is not one right wing person who would deny we support this war and show it by getting out and actually supporting our soldiers where we can. The left sits back and whines on about how bad this is or how bad that is but DO NOTHING no raising money for the poor inside Afghanistan, no housing help, no water wells….nothing! Try doing something until then sit back and shut up as you help no one!
  299. Asterix M from Canada writes: PLEASE PRESS "ENTER" AND MAKE PARAGRAPHS

    CAND READ A BIG BLOB OF LETTERS

    THANKS
  300. BaZ MaN from Canada writes: Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury: Before you say something like why don’t I join up already tried rejected to old. How many rallies have you been to did you go this last weekend in MontrĂ©al? See this is what I&8217;m talking about I don&8217;t care what your position is just that your doing more that posting your fake support for the innocent Afghans. I believe in help around the world in places like Sudan and Somalia even back in Rwanda. A place where you&8217;re lefty US president wouldn&8217;t even send a plane to jam radio shows calling for the germicide of the Tosy but now that he has no power what so ever care about the suffering of the poor Africans. I see you the same as I see him fake and sad out to swap public option not for the people that you claim to care about but for political reasons to get what you want in this country. Good thing those Afghans could die so you could make your point of the day! Sorry your probably a real nice person but I grow tried of people that do nothing but can&8217;t shut up about how much they care about Afghans.
  301. Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury, Canada writes: Actually BaZ - Bin Laden was one of the guys who fought the Russians too - with American support and money. And many of the Taliban fighters are former mujadeen - which just goes to show how confusing this all is. Which is why there is no point taking sides.

    Don't really get the reference to grammar - it is your logic that fails you, and the fact that you are pretty much incoherent. How do you know what I have or haven't done for a family in in Afghanistan? I am sitting around doing nothing but writing - but I am counting the posts BaZ, and you have more than me. So, if I were to use the same stone you just cast my way, I'd have to call you a liar and say that even if I did believe you went to some rally for the soldiers and have a big yellow magnet on your car, this in no way makes you some kind of hero.

    I think you are as big a liar as anyone, plus you have a heck of an inferiority complex. I might add that it is well earned - I am pretty sure you are the dumbest person in the room 99% of the time.

    What is your point? Do you have one?
  302. Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury, Canada writes: No BaZ, I wasn't going to say why don't you join up - you'd have failed every psych and comprehension test anyway. Convenient that you're too old.

    Are you just getting further into your bottle of scotch or are you having some kind of aneurysm?
  303. kevin joncas from Calgary, Canada writes: I have this strange feeling of having read somewhere that the government in Afghanistan was elected by the people in fair elections.It even included a number of women. Now I see there are people on this board who are advocating power sharing with people armed and supported by Iran ,who are trying to overthrow that government by force. Interesting concept of what constitutes democracy.
  304. Chris Edwards from Greater Sudbury, Canada writes: I agree Kevin. It is an equally interesting concept of what constitutes democracy to install a government by force and then hold elections where the other major party - the one deposed by that same force - cannot really run "candidates" or conduct a "campaign". Interesting that people then proceed to vote for this new "party" that never before existed and which they really know nothing about, and which before too long begins to look not much better than what they had before. But as long as international gun barrles are pointed outwards from Kabul, everything will be fine. I'd like to see them hold elections when those guns are gone. They won't, because by then being in power will have become kind of nice, and not something they are likely to want to let go. Besides, they'll still have the bogey man to point to as a reason not to let go of power - assuming of course they are strong enough to take them on, even though the bogey man has spent the last few years getting his arse whooped and is still tougher than the government. Movements and groups like the Taliban seldom come to power because everything was "super duper" before they came to power. People just have short memories. Afghanistan is a dump that countries have fought wars over and lost men to for no good reason three other times in fairly recent history. There is no sense in us doing the same.
  305. kevin joncas from Calgary, Canada writes: Chris, The taliban could have fielded candidates,they refused to do so.Probably because they knew there is no significant popular support for them. Theirs is a fledgling democracy indeed,but suggesting that they share power with unelected thugs is a sure way to have no democracy at all.
  306. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: kevin joncas, your statement is incorrect. The Taliban were banned from participating in either the presidential or parliamentary elections in Afghanistan. Indeed, the Taliban are subject to being summarily arrested, tortured or even shot on sight. Hardly the kind of environment where you'd run for office, wouldn't you say?

    The precise same scenario played out in Iraq, again courtesy of our American cousins. In Iraq, all the former ruling group were thrown out of the government, military, security and police forces. Deprived of power, they fomented an insurrection. The results are there for all to see.

    The Americans used the same ham-fisted methods in Afghanistan. Rather than weeding out the real crazies and letting the moderates participate in the new government, the Taliban were outlawed en masse. The results could not have been more predictable.

    If you kick the former rulers of a country out with no way to participate in the new power-sharing, they will fight back. It's 1 plus 1 equals 2.
  307. randy mcneely from Vancouver, Canada writes: Canada is quickly entering the realm of a rogue state, a systemic violator of human rights legislation and legally-binding treaty obligations.

    This is a momumental step for a nation that led almost a century of diplomatic and military campaigns to protect human rights, both in Canada and throughout the world. Canadians have fought and died for just such human rights as we now flaunt in Afghanistan. Canadian soldiers and peacekeepers have established a worldwide reputation for bravery and moral rectitude in the face of the world's worst tyrants.

    This legacy is now coming to an swift end.

    Afghanistan is where it will die, but its effects will most certainly be felt in Canada as our homeland becomes a certain target of international terrorism as the only means by which the tortured, murdered, and humiliated victims of Canadian military occupation fight back with the only weapon and tactics they and their families have.

    What is more, our actions abroad are a reflection of an erosion of our human rights at home. Habeas corpus, privacy rights, and freedom of travel are no longer assured in Canada. These are hard-won rights spanning back a millenium in British history.

    We live in a land where the rule of law has replaced savagery and started to ensure certain minimums of safety, health, and freedom. If any of us care about civility, our own human rights, and the future of our children, we must rise up and call for the resignation and indictment of all Canadians who are now contributing in any way to any violation of law, whether under the Charter or any international treaty ratified by our Parliament.

    The rule of law is just that: A RULE. We are flirting, if not dancing, with anarchy. We must defend our laws, and bring its betrayers to account.
  308. c e mendoza from Victoria, Canada writes: I feel appalled that Canadian NATO participants are implicated in the unlawful torture of human captives in Afghanistan. Please, stop the transfer of captives immediately to Afghanistan authority. Human rights must prevail.
  309. Bill VanIderstine from Victoria Cross, Canada writes: Isn't it tough that someone who will blow up just anyone, childern , old people or who ever, gets a slap in the face and its called unfair treatment. To them. Give them to me & I'll show you what they deserve. You bleeding hearts, put your self in the place of losing a child to one of these killers, then bleed yourself like a lot of these innocent parnets have to do & then listen to you retards.
  310. I. M. Al Wayswright (not opinionated) from Canada writes: Former Liberal I agree with you that 'war is always ugly.'
  311. I. M. Al Wayswright (not opinionated) from Canada writes: Philosophr King I like your posts, most i like your statement, 'war creates nothing but victims.'
  312. I. M. Al Wayswright (not opinionated) from Canada writes: Udom Thongpai, I 100% agree with you.
  313. I. M. Al Wayswright (not opinionated) from Across from Naramata, Canada writes: Richard Roskell from Naramata, I 100% agree with you
  314. I. M. Al Wayswright (not opinionated) from Canada writes: Mary Smith from USA, what exactly is your point?
  315. I. M. Al Wayswright (not opinionated) from Canada writes: Flash Frozen Eggplant, I wonder if you are human at all?
  316. I R from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Richard Roskell from Naramata - I enjoy your comments. They are i interesting and engaging. Thanks.
  317. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: I. M. and I R, thanks for your kind words. And I R your comments elsewhere are good reading, too. Best wishes to all.
  318. kevin joncas from Calgary, Canada writes: R.R.
    The taliban would have been allowed to run if they turned in their weapons(so as not to intimidate voters) and committed to ending human rights abuses . This was a requirement in the initial constitution. Seems fair enough to me. They refused to do so.They did indeed have a choice. Do you think a similar group would be allowed to run in Canadian elections?
    Your assertion that they are subject to arrest,torture and being shot certainly applies.Especially when they are killing those who won't accept their religious fascism.
  319. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: Kevin Joncas, thank you for your reply. In my view your assertion is once again incorrect based on available facts. But perhaps you have in your possession (or can provide links to) information which supports your claim that the Taliban were offered the right to run in the elections subject to the conditions you stated. I await that information.

    The first objection to your claim is straightforward. The "constitution" you mention was not a creation of Afghans, let alone one the Taliban joined in creating. Instead it was delivered to Afghans by Western powers, and accepted by the U.S.-installed (at the time) interim president and the warlords who the U.S. enlisted for their invasion. Perhaps you can explain to me, why would any former ruling power in Afghanistan sign on to a constitution that they had no say in?

    Furthermore, are you suggesting that the warlords who now sit in high office in the Afghan government surrendered their arms, just as the Taliban were required to do? Are those same warlords committed to ending human rights abuses?

    On a practical basis, the conditions you stated are meaningless. Afghanistan is awash in weapons and are openly carried by large numbers of people, especially in rural areas. It's little exaggeration to state that there's an AK-47 or RPG under every bed. If the Taliban hand in one weapon, they have easy access to five more. As far as committing to end human rights abuses, the results are plain for all to see. The current Afghan government may have pledged to end human rights abuses, but by many accounts equal or greater human rights abuses systematically take place.

    On a further practical note, the wise decision at the time would have been to include as many of the more moderate Taliban as possible in all aspects of the government. Doing so would have marginalized the radical Taliban, while lessening the chance of an insurgency.
  320. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: Finally Kevin, the definition of what constitutes "fascism" is well-known and understood. Could you please explain what about the Taliban's religious views (or those of radical Islam in general) constitutes fascism?

    Or, like others, do you simply intend to vilify the Taliban by incorrectly (and most unfairly) associating them with the Nazi genocide of WWII?
  321. Brian Miller from Oakville, Canada writes: Andy Garrett President of The Parry Sound Brewing Co: No. I'm not one of those torturers.

    There is one simple thing which I believe everyone in Middle East and Canada is forgetting.

    Let's just all follow the rule of law.

    Its that simple.

    We have to all follow the rule of law.

    If you're a terrorist, you are a criminal.

    If your a government committing abuses, your a criminal.

    If you are against some things you can voice your concern so its good to say your anti this or concerned about a certain religion, but if you cross the line and go the hate speech then you may have broken a law.

    Its all very simple. Preserve the rule of law and we will all be okay.

    And that means military personnel obey the laws under a military controlled area (or occupation?) whichever, and it also means local police and RCMP National Security obey the laws, and it means all of us obey the law.

    Then its simple.

    You litter in public you get fined $20. You plot to harm people, you get 20 years.
  322. margot izard from duncan, Canada writes: Further to what Graeme is saying, the details from an AIH CBC interview on Friday 27 and its podcast, Cherif Bassiouni, former UN independent expert on human rights in Afghanistan, said this: the dreaded NDS (secret police) are only said to be under Karzai's control. The are really run and controlled by US forces separate from the NATO forces. All Karzai can do is keep it under wraps. The rest is as usual, complete with "ghost houses", "black holes", secret locations in and around Afghanistan.

    As Cherif Bassiouini put it, this "daisy chain" of command and responsibility gives the Canadian military and politicians a loophole of "plausible deniability".

    They can honestly say they don't know what's happening to these prisoners. We have to demand that they demand to see through all the curtains. This means right through to secret US control of the Afghani secret police.

    What makes this so vile for me is that this is all about pipelines, and US control of Caspian Sea oil and gas, not pencils and women's rights.

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